So I want to make a "balanced" more strategic version of Golden Sun. My biggest aim is to not make a hack and heal like the original. Some of my current ideas on how to accomplish this are:
-Make weapon types more distinct and balance
-Rework the unleash system for certain weapon types
-Give alot of weapons and armor use abilites (not sure if they should be breakable)
-Rework range elemental attacks to balance with elemental physical attacks
-Make psynergy more varied (no more 3 spell trees that vary only slightly by base power; i.e. gaia, thorn, growth)
-Enemy reworking
Any recommendations on how to accomplish this or other areas that should be changed?
Hm... For equipment, you should make weaker items only usable once, but the better and rarer items reusable (but give them horrible stats).
An example of what I did was that I made the Shaman's Rod unleash Hurricane and bestow Thunderhead (not using it, but it has a 100% chance of unleash), but it lowers your attack and defense by -250-ish, so those stats are 0 until you get into the 70's for level. I also made it give you two turns, but that might be too strong.
Have a nice day.
Yeah what Salanewt did. I did something similar to that. I made the buy able weapons have single use abilities and the rarer weapons (like Witch's Wand, Shamshir, etc.) use abilities, but have the ability to break (so you would use money to be able to re-use it's abilities if desired.)
I will be doing something similar to what Salanewt said for artifacts. The single use ability on normal weapons sounds interstring though. But I plan on setting this up so that you need to think carefully about what your buying not just be able to buy everything.
What are your opinions on changing starting levels and level curves?
Hmmm...Single use abilities on normal weapons is a brilliant idea.
Also, did you heard about not having the weapons unleash but rather having bestow that unleash has psynergy? Personally I don't like the idea but having some weapons do that wouldn't be a bad idea for a strategic version.
I have not changed mine because I find it a bit confusing, but I would change their stats a bit based on build. What I mean is that the warrior types should get even less psynergy compared to those who are more like mages. The mages should get more psynergy, but less health. As for experience, those who are warrior types could level up faster, but the mage types could get better stat boosts (in some stats). I have not yet done this though.
I also heard about that. It is a good idea, but I would rather not do it myself until we can add icons (or maybe sooner if they already have icons that work for them).
One more thing, you should also fill in the gaps for the class groups.
Have a nice day.
I also remenbered something else. Try to differ the weapons, in the game axes, sword, maces, etc don't differ much between them (except for who can equip them) so try something like this:
Swords would have normal attack power but higher unleash rate than the other weapons, axes would increase defense but loer speed, light blades would be the oppposite of axes (+ speed - defense), maces would increase element resist (e.g. +5 venus resist), staves elemnt power (e.g. +5 venus power) and rod would increse both element power and resist but less than maces and staves (e.g. +2 venus resist +2 venus power)(for example).
This would make people scratch their heads on which weapon to choose.
Another idea courtesy of JamietheFlameUser:
Light Blades: +Agility, tendency to have Turns +1, medium attack power.
Swords: Second highest attack power, falling to Axes, +Defence.
Axes: Highest attack power by a longshot, -Defence, -Speed.
Ankhs: +elemental power, +luck, low attack power, PP regen.
Staves: +Defence, +elemental power, low attack power, tendency towards elemental attributes, high unleash rate.
Maces: +elemental power, +elemental resist, unleashes have a tendency towards ignoring target's Defence, medium attack power.
Nice Jamie, that's similar to what I said but better organized. Oh, and keep in mind that the +1 turn (from equipped weapons/rings/etc) kind of glitches if you try to stack it with the +1 turn bestowing djinn.
I was alsoo looking into diversify unleashes for the weapon types.
Axes: Big Damage low chance unleashes (20%-25%)
Long sword: Average damage average chance (30%-35%)
Short Sword: No idea what to do here
Maces: Status attacks with a high unleash rate
Stave: Bestowed unleashes
I was considering giving some short swords a counter strike chance
I was alsoo looking into diversify unleashes for the weapon types.
Axes: Big Damage low chance unleashes (20%-25%)
Long sword: Average damage average chance (30%-35%)
Short Sword: No idea what to do here
Maces: Status attacks with a high unleash rate
Stave: Bestowed unleashes
I was considering giving some short swords a counter strike chance
Edit: Will an admin please delete this for me?
what is this about counter strike chance? That would be a very good idea. Actually, I'd love it if you did that and let other people play it. Alot of those items need special effects like that which were never used.
Is it possible to bestow guard aura effect/chance on weapons/armour permanently? It would be cool if whenever you were attacked there was a chance of taking only 5% damage.
I do eventually plan to release this eventually, but right now I'm still brainstorming, I will probably follow Zach's example and release a beta version once I get to Lemuria.
As for the counterstrike chance I was thinking of tossing that on some shortswords instead of extra turns because I could easily see abuse of that with summons and djinn. Though may do that and have it lower elemental power. Any ideas on how I could change short swords unleashes to diversify them more?
What djinn do think are under/over powered and why?
Short Swords: First off, give them speed-based unleashes, ones that don't look like they hurt a lot. Moves like Lunar Slash (Corsair's Edge) and Mad Zephyr (also already on a short sword) look quite nice. Perhaps Twin Beaks would work well on a short sword?
Maces: Moves like Pike Assault (which can ignore defence) work well for Maces.
Djinn:
Gasp is underpowered. If I were you I'd change it to single-target, with a 100% chance of causing Death Curse instead of having it currently not effect bosses, once we have an effect editor.
Geode is overpowered. It just gives far too high a multiplier. I'd say x1.5 or x1.6 is more like it, rather than the current x1.8
Meld is underpowered. It presently only gives +25% of the user's Attack stat to the attacker. Personally, once we have an effect editor, I'd give it +100% of the user's Attack to the attacker.
Cannon is underpowered for a damage-bonus only Djinni. Either it needs a secondary effect or it needs to have a higher damage bonus.
You are one of the few people on this website who pluralizes the word Djinni correctly.
I think will Look into doing chance 2x or 3x damage for short sword unleashes. I will try out some those specific animation Jamie.
Idea for balancing Elemntal Range attacks: (Stolen and changed from GFAQ's TLA board)
So the orignal idea was take a spell series like quake which upgrades to Earthquake and Quake Sphere. for a squire these are learned at lvl 2, 4, 14. In a normal game by the time you get Piers these spells are already out of date. So the idea was remove the first level (Quake) and replace with new spell (for this example Tremor) that is stronger than the third level (Quake Sphere) with a higher lvl requirement (lets say 21). Then as the character goes to higher classes slowly replace the next lowest spell with a stronger version.
My modification is there are so many similar spells (bolt and ray) (growth and thorn) (frost and ice) that I would just upgrade one into the other.
Though ERA will still be static there will be more upgrades in power to keep them from being out classed EPA.
I'd personally give some of the spells like those that are so similar, and give them different secondary effects to make them all different. For example, Punji/Thorn are very similar. To make them less similar, I'd give Punji a chance of inflicting Stun, and Thorn a chance of inflicting Poison.
I want to do that eventually but i also want to implement my previous Idea without have a bunch of endgame spells called ???. Though I do eventually plan on doing what you said to some extent
Did you check out my ideas topic at the first GSHC? It has some neat stuff there, mostly involving alternate base classes for Felix, Ivan, and Piers. Oh, and a cool Beast Mage class idea.
And, uh, yeah, I wouldn't want a bunch of endgame spells called ??? either.
I glanced through it once, but I will take a detailed look now? I decided I'm going to start with reworking classes, especially the warrior ones.
Can someone explain to me what effects the chance of a status effect to work? I know the luck stat is involved but whose and how much does it affect?
I believe immunity to status is based on % chance-luck, but I don't know how status deliverer's luck adds to the chance.
I'm pretty sure that the luck of the guy trying to inflict the status is involved, as is the luck of the guy getting hit with the status move.
I checked gamefaqs Boards and apparently only the targets luck counts.
Still waiting for input on Classes and Jamie I read your old topic and liked the idea for Piers.
Shameless plug:
Check this post for any Djinni-related concerns and plausible fixes.
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/genmessage.php?board=561356&topic=51485211 (http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/genmessage.php?board=561356&topic=51485211)
Quote from: EhicSo I want to make a "balanced" more strategic version of Golden Sun. My biggest aim is to not make a hack and heal like the original. Some of my current ideas on how to accomplish this are:
-Make weapon types more distinct and balance
-Rework the unleash system for certain weapon types
-Give alot of weapons and armor use abilites (not sure if they should be breakable)
-Rework range elemental attacks to balance with elemental physical attacks
-Make psynergy more varied (no more 3 spell trees that vary only slightly by base power; i.e. gaia, thorn, growth)
-Enemy reworking
Any recommendations on how to accomplish this or other areas that should be changed?
I've already made suggestions for weapons, and for unleashes as well. See the appropriate GSDG topic.
Same goes for armor and what not.
Psynergy ideas can be found in their appropriate GSDG topic
Same with enemies.
As such, if you need any ideas, why not check them out? I know at least
I happen to be taking them seriously. So long as you ignore those pervasive joke and cameo items that show up and look at the ones that people took seriously, you should be fine.
I've actually already stolen some ideas from there (especially weapon balancing), I read through gamefaqs plenty also. I was just wandering if anyone had any other opinions that hadn't been shared.
Well, are you turning this into an SRPG like the title suggests? That suggests that you're using something like the FFTA or TO system, in which case you may need to find out a totally new way to balance AoE for psynergy.
Sorry but i don't understand your abbreviating, please explain?
I want redesign the curent game so that it's no longer a slash and heal, is fairly more difficult, and so you have to make choices (no more just buy the newest weapons and use the most recent djinn). I want the player to actually think ahead and have a plan especially for bosses.
SRPG is a Strategy Role Playing Game. They're games like Final Fantasy Tactics, Final Fantasy Tactics Advance, Tactics Ogre, Luminous Arc, Disgaea, etc..., and typically use an Isometric grid for the placement of combat units/characters...
Otherwise, there's nothing about it that involves "Strategy". If you're not going that route, then what you're speaking about isn't adding strategy, it's rebalancing the game's system, which we're all doing.
By strategy I meant make it so that not all bosses can be easily beaten by attack and heal, unless the player decides to level grind. Similar to dragon quest 8 where the game could be beaten with hack and heal but only if you farily over leveled, but at level or below level would require planning like exploiting a boss with abnormally high HP and low luck by using poison then just defend and heal till it kills itself.
You could make a boss with abnormally high Defence and immunity to Psynergy, and also abnormally low HP, so that summons don't work, most Djinn don't work, and Psynergy doesn't work, but also give the boss low luck, and high Attack, so that Djinn like Mold and status effects are especially dangerous.
Actually, that's just a basic rebalanced game... Not so much strategy, as balanced gameplay.
Ok, thanks for help.
Class rebalancing (up to lvl 54, normal equipment): What Class lines do you believe are (over/under)powered, why, and how can that be fixed?
ie. Ninja: Has extremely high attack and agility while all other stats are above average. Has an EPA that hits three targets and an another EPA that can stun. Can be fixed by lowering attack to good from very good and defence from good to average.
The Jupiter base class is so pathetic. They seriously need to have better stats and Psynergies.
I was thinking, maybe the electrical based Jupiter psynergies could have a paralyzing effect to them?... That would make them far more useful.
Oh yeah, I like that idea. However, I would not do this to Plasma (or Thunderclap) series. The Ray and Bolt series would be neat though.
Also...
Have a nice day.
But, if psynergies get a side effect like stun than they have to be weakened otherwise you can simply spam, for example, destruct ray over and over and the enemies will always be stunned.
And didn't Jamie already give the idea of adding status effect to psynergies?
Well perhaps you give the psynergies a 10% chance of stun... wait, that's possible right?
Besides most of the electrical based psynergies are already extremely weak.
Nope. It's not possible to giva an exact % to inflict stun/poison/etc. You can only set it to "May cause Stun". I guess it depends on the enemy's and/or caster's Luck only.
Different attacks have different chances of causing stun. Want a high chance? Set it to the same effect as Paralyze. Want a lower chance? Then go find some other move.
We can set it to have the same chance as any move that already has it. But, we can't add our own chance or view the exact chance of it working.
I been working on a way to balance damage/stauts hybrid psynergy, What other classes are unbalanced? Opinions on warlock being improved, also I'm looking into making mage multi element classes into fighter classes for Piers and in some cases Ivan. What classes do you think that could work for?
The Mysterious Card classes are underpowered, but I will get back to you, when I re-check how bad they were
Personally, I think that Base classes should have more powerful psynergy, while the more mixed you get with djinn, the more the focus is on stats instead.
Basically, base classes are pure-psynergy oriented, meaning great EPAs for fighters, great base damage for mages.
Dual-element classes are a mix of the two. Not as good of stats as tri-element, not as good of psynergy as base-class, but a healthy balance of the two.
Tri-element classes are more of a stat-focus. They have psynergy to back them up, but it's not their primary means of damage, so it's kind of sub-par in comparison to other classes. They make up for it by having the best overall stats, though.
The game TRIES to do this, but doesn't do it well enough... The Ninja class has not only the best stats in the game, but three of the best psynergies as well - Shurriken, Thunderhead, and Annihilation.
One way you can fix this is to have a 'staggered upgrade' system. Basically, for attack spells in base classes, you'll learn spells like gaia without needing 4 djinn. However, after you class up twice, the weaker stages get replaced with stronger versions that are learned at later levels.
For example, in Squire class, Quake is replaced by Tremor at Gallant. It has the same range and animation as quake, but the power is one stage up from Quake Sphere, as is the level you learn it. At Lord, Earthquake is replaced by High Tremor. Again, it's got the same range and animation as Earthquake, but the power and level learned are one step up from Tremor. At Slayer, Quake Sphere is replaced by Grand Tremor, which has the same range and... well, you get the pattern.
This will keep adepts learning spells even beyond level 54, which is VERY helpful in terms of keeping psynergy balanced with unleashes.
This works with EPAs, too. Ragnarok is learned as norm, and Odyssey is learned at twice the level, though rather than replacing Ragnarok, it just requires that you're Knight or higher. At Gallant, Ragnarok is replaced by Laevateinn, which uses the same animation, but is stronger and learned at a higher level. At Lord, Odyssey is replaced... by, let's say... Iliad or something. I'm sure you can come up with something better, as I'm drawing a blank. Again, stronger, same animation, just learned at a higher level.
If you remember to pace your djinn right, it'll work perfectly for the "expected level". If they're doing a LLG, then they're probably not gonna be using psynergy much anyways...
For Dual-element classes, they only go up to the second stage of replacement. The 4, 6, and 8 djinn classes are what are used. Unlike Base classes, only one Physical psynergy per fighter. It DOES upgrade, though, at the 6-djinn class.
For Tri-element classes, they only go up the first stage. IF that. An alternative is that they don't go up at all, but rather have added effects so that psynergy is at least considered (such as, may cause poison, sleep, delude, lowers defense, etc...), which is something that I tend to lean towards. Their main focus is stats, though.
For Item Classes, it honestly depends on the item. They're as unique as the items themselves, so they don't really follow the same rules as non-item classes. Basically, how the item class is approached depends on the item class itself, you can't just group them together. Some may be more physical based, some more magical based, and some are just plain out there.
Role I've seen your idea for psynergy staggering brfore on gamefaqs. My problem with it is the level curve for this game is to low (game ends lvl 35-45) though I will be changing that in my hack. I have been working on implementing it though and it is very effective.
Another thing to take into account besides number of elements controlled is the type of class. I see three types of classes: Fighter, Mage, And Support. Fighters relying on wepon unleashes and EPAs for damage. Mages relying on ERAs and items for damage and healing. Support uses status attacks, (de)buffs, and other support psynergy (defence spell I making).
When balancing classes keep mind what role said about number of element controlled and my idea on types. Try to figure out which one (or two) of these thay fit in and balance/critique to that).
ie. Samurai is a Fighter and Supporter due to its great EPAs and offensive stats along with 3 sets of stat buffs. I think samurai should just be powered down little to be supporter but keep the survivability of fighter. I propose weakening it's EPA by removing quick strike, setting Helm splitter to 70% (or lower) damage while keeping chance of death. Then lowering its attack bonus by 10%.
Even though the curve is low, remember that weaker 2nd-rank psynergy is STILL weaker than some of the stronger 1st-rank psynergy. Tremor should NEVER be stronger than Grand Gaia, or heck, arguably even it's upgraded base, Terra, for that matter. So while you lose the weakest of the weak, you still get psynergy as norm. In the end, you should probably have at least Grand Tremor by the time you hit endgame. Basically, stagger in spells according to power, and sure, while the weaker groups have power levels that are higher than the max of the base, this is not the case for stronger psynergies, such as Gaia. Stagger Terra in before Grand Gaia, since you need to stagger things in a way so that even if the stronger spells are overruled by class, you still have a spell of comparable power at the ready.
After all, if you're going by the level that spells are learned, notice how freaking early you learn Quake Sphere. And all the quake like, for that matter. You'll keep learning it quickly, and although it won't be uber in terms of power, you'll at least be able to have some stronger spells staggered in. Try testing my idea before you just plain write it off.
Now, there's actually just two types of classes, Physical and Magical. Or, Fighter and Mage as they're commonly called. There is no other type. Rather, you also have: Attack, Support, Recovery, and Balance.
Mia is an example of a Recovery Mage, Ivan's a mix of an Attack and Support Mage (while Garet's class would be an Attack/Support Fighter). Isaac's a Balanced Fighter, then you have the Samurai, which is a Support Fighter, Ninja, which is an Attack Fighter, Paladin, which is a Recovery Fighter...
Do you get it yet? There's the physical and magical specialization, and then Attack, Support, and Recovery (and the balance of the three) is a SEPARATE classification. Basically, Fighter vs Mage looks at STATS, and Attack vs Support vs Recovery looks at Psynergy groups. Simple as that.
So, when I look at what you're doing to samurai... I'm gonna say that you're probably doing it wrong. The stat boosts were okay, but the effects weren't likely to come until next turn due to the samurai's speed being lower. What's more, you're going to lower its attack and rid it of the only really useful skill that it has. I think that's a bad move. There's other things that can do that don't make the class totally useless. Heck, look at what you are doing to helm splitter. It's already a lame version of Annihilation, which is BY FAR much better than it. And now you're making it worse than Backstab?! Are you mad?
Nerfing a class is NOT the same as balancing it. If you went ahead and did that, it'd go from a great class to "don't even bother, just use Ninja". You want each class to have PROS as well as cons, and I don't see just stats alone making up for the pros, especially if you rebalanced weapons and unleashes. The only reason the Master and Ronin were so broken was because of the extreme boost to unleashes that the attack stat bonus gave you. If you balance those, then suddenly they lose a LOT of the power that they had. Remember, don't base your rebalancing on how it was in the old game, base it on how it's going to be in your hack. Without the brokenness of unleashes, you may find that by weakening and/or removing its EPAs, you cripple the class beyond redemption.
Now, DON'T take this as an attack on you and your ideas. Since it's not. But rather, I'm calling it as I see it. And what I see is that you're trying to balance the classes without looking at the effects of balancing other things, like weapons, unleashes, and armor.
Edit: Here's an example that I whipped up off the top of my head.
01 - Cure (c70, 1)
02 - Quake (b12, 3)
04 - Earthquake (b35, 5)
06 - Spire (b40, 1)
07 - Gaia (b40, 3)
10 - Cure Well (c150, 1)
13 - Ragnarok (a35, 1)
14 - Quake Sphere (b65, 7)
19 - Revive (Revive to 25%, 1)
20 - Clay Spire (b85, 3)
24 - Mother Gaia (b100, 5)
25 - Tremor (b105, 3)
26 - Potent Cure (c300, 1)
27 - Odyssey (a95, 1)
30 - High Tremor (b120, 5)
35 - High Revive (Revive to 50%, 1) (@ Slayer)
40 - Grand Tremor (b150, 7)
41 - Laevateinn (a135, 1)
42 - Stone Spire (b160, 3)
46 - Slag (180, 1)
47 - Terra (180, 3)
54 - Grand Gaia (b200, 5)
58 - Slag Fall (b240, 3)
63 - High Terra (b300, 5)
70 - Iliad (a200, 1)
72 - Slag Rain (b390, 3)
88 - Grand Terra (b480, 5)