Golden Sun Hacking Community

Hey, everyone.  I'm Kioll, your friendly neighborhood oddball.  I would like to share with you all a project that I've been wanting to do for a while, which I feel is made possible by Atrius's TLA Editor.  That said, I would like to Introduce you to Golden Sun BYOND.

For those who don't know, BYOND (Build Your Own Net Dream) (http://www.byond.com/), is an amateur game making platform which allows those who can understand the code to create and host their own homebrew games, playable by anyone who has the BYOND client installed.  Allowing for both single-player and multi-player games to be produced, the BYOND client has complete interactivity with other players, although it is a bit limited.  That being said, I can now describe the game with everyone reading being on equal footing.

Golden Sun BYOND (Preliminary title, also considering Golden Sun: Age of Alchemy) is designed to be a multi-player version of the classic Golden Sun games.  It's mostly plans at the moment, I have all of a few lines of code done so far, but I plan to have character creation, allowing players to create 1 character of their choice, choosing class and elemental alignment, and randomizing stats based on the character's role.  I plan to include a player party system, and possibly an option of creating an NPC party, a more extensive class system covering all the classes from all the current games and a few new ones, the ability to learn certain psynergies of other elements, allowing single characters to go further on their own, and access to the full map of Weyard (GS1 and 2, Dark Dawn may be added later...).  I plan to include all of the classic locations, djinn, and psynergies, while tastefully expanding upon that.

Planned features include:
A 9 or 10 djinni limit per character, no repeats (including the ability to free a djinni in favor of new ones, if so inclined.)
The original mechanics system (or at least as close as I can get.)
Windowed fight scenes and menu (to avoid issues with switching screens; as I said, BYOND is limited)
A global chat system
A "home town" system, allowing characters to start from certain places (Such as Prox, or Imil, or even Garoh ;) )
A racial selection (although it may have to wait for later versions...)
Up to 8 player parties, allowing for any combination of characters (Want an all Mars Adept team?  Go for it!)
New and classic puzzles.
Storyline (Want to play through the old story with new characters?  Great!  Or follow your own sequence of events, make your own story!)
PVP battle (Go to the arena, battle against other characters.)
Limited Psynergy customization.  (Don't like a psynergy you have?  Trade it in for a new one!)
Customized character portraits
Dual elemental power (Raise your elemental level in the element closest to your own, for single characters only; no parties may be formed with these characters.)
New, stronger monsters (Want to be the most powerful adept?  Sure, you can level a little higher now, just... don't die!   :happy:)

Input, ideas, anyone familiar with BYOND's Dream Maker code, planning help, some of the harder to find sprites (like the psynergy rings, the ones that appear when using psynergy in the overworld?  Can't find a working sprite to save my life!), any of these kinds of help and more are desired and most welcome.  Also, formulae, battle mechanics, well-liked improvements to the original system, all ideas like that are also welcome.  Also, Pixel Art help.

Wow, you've got alot of good ideas. Will there be a charater creation like in WoW or AQW? You don't want ten gazillion copies of the same character all running around the game.

Well, BYOND is basically a 2D system, so nothing that fancy in a BYOND game; although I'd be willing to try a more advanced system if someone were to be able to help with it.  But basically creation is going to be, to the best of my ability, hairstyle, hair color, eye color, and clothing.

I'd like to help with that, but I'm not much of a coder. The most advanced thing I've done in that area is make a simple asteroids game. ( ﾟ ヮﾟ)/

Golden Sun multiplayer OH GOD YES.
I hope I'll be able to help you with this. Because I want to help everyone with everything, it seems. Don't expect it to turn out that way, though...

Anyway, I'll keep my eyes on this project.

Nero, honestly, I'm not much of a coder either.  I mean, I can do the job, but even I need help with some more advanced stuff.  BYOND's code isn't that hard to understand, most of the time.  I could teach you pretty easily.

Misery, I would love the help.  Anything you can do would be loved.  Also, my profile has my messenger ID's, you guys can IM me about this on Yahoo, AIM, MSN...  Go for it...  While I'm thinking about it, Misery, what kind of help might you provide?

Check out the Golden Sun MMO thread for some good ideas.  Also, good luck.

Do you have a basic idea of the plot of the game?

Kioll: Cool, but my pc's a six year old piece of temperamental crap, can I run BYOND?

And that asteroids game I made is the noobiest of nooby games. Search around the site, you won't miss it.

Thanks for the suggestion, Role.  ^^  As for the plot, I have a few ideas; that part's still in development.  Also, considering BYOND is made to run on computers as early as ME, probably.

QuoteAs for the plot, I have a few ideas; that part's still in development.

Like what? When does it take place? Is it a sequel or a prequel to GS? Who are the antagonists? What event spurs the players into starting their quest?

Quote from: Kioll on 21, November, 2011, 05:01:15 PM
While I'm thinking about it, Misery, what kind of help might you provide?

I can do a bit of programming, and I'm all too familiar with the battle mechanics in GS (like many other board members here). If nothing else, I can probably help spot game balance issues. It's just that my off schedule-schedule is a little tight at the moment :Sweat:
But I'll look into this eventually, BYOND seems interesting.

For the moment, I have a set difference in mind for single-character storyline and party storyline.  And as every character is of course, different, don't you think every character should have their own storyline?  :D  Example:

I plan on making character creation fairly simple by including what is, in essence, a "build" decision as the first decision.
Build, in this case, refers to character role:  You can choose one or two basic ability types, out of Fighter, Healer, Caster, Sneak.
Choosing one of these of course means you have less focus division, making you stronger in that role, but choosing 2 allows you to be more versatile.  Build would affect the type of psynergies you gain, the list of classes available to you...  For instance, I'd give a Venus Sneak access to something like Sand early on, allowing them to hide easily; a Jupiter Sneak might get Cloak in its place.  You'd think Fighter/Healer might be the best option, but that's why other builds get specific boosts to make them more useful...  Here are the advantages I have in mind for each.

Fighters have high attack and defense, making them good for physical combat.  Their psynergy will be noticeably weaker in comparison.
Healers, of course, have low damage, decent defense, and strong healing psynergy.  They lack much in the way of offense, but being able to stay alive longer means they still have a chance of making it.
Casters have a lot of strong psynergy, able to place damage and elemental power across the board; to make up for it, of course, low physical ability.
Sneaks are decent physically, although still somewhat weak there, a mostly balanced class, with one special advantage:  They are good at sneaking around, being able to pass undetected and surprise their opponents.  This means they can perform sneak attacks, have high bonuses if they catch their opponent off-guard (You took the enemy by surprise!  You attack first!  <---  Bonus on first attack.)  This means Sneaks would make good assassin-types.
Balance is of course going to come down to a lot of math...  But anyways, here's how all of this is relevant to the question.  Different types of characters have different motivations, accomplish goals differently, and different personalities.  This means that despite the overall goal of the story being the same, how you get there will vary based on your character's viewpoint.  You may want to talk the Mayor into giving you the item, you may want to try to find your own, or you may even try to steal it.  You might be a welcomed guest or a hated prisoner...  It's all up to you.

In short, my friend, I haven't gotten much done on the storyline, I figured mechanics and playability came before story.

And Misery, you're quickly becoming my best friend.  If you don't mind, I would like to talk to you on an instant messenger of some sort, see what all you might be able to help me with!

Wait, how multiplayer is this gonna be?  Are we talking like minor MMO levels, or is it something a group of friends have a lan party over or something?

Minor MMO levels.  The Dream Seeker client within BYOND (the one that allows you to play games) connects to the internet, then to the BYOND server, then to the individual host running Dream Daemon.  The only limit on the number of players is the host's ability to connect.  In other words, RAM.

Okay, in that case I'll go ahead and post what I was going to post before I stopped myself.


Story?  In an MMO?  What is the world coming to...

Quote from: Role on 21, November, 2011, 07:06:22 PM
Story?  In an MMO?  What is the world coming to...

An age where MMOs have (hopefully interesting) plots, instead of just being glorified social networks?

Any game needs a good story.  I don't know about you, but I don't want to get on a game, MMO or not, and just run around killing things.  There's a reason it's called a Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game.  You take on the role of a character in a world, not a sprite in a game.  Your actions have an effect on the overall world, that's what MMORPG is all about.  So yes, story in an MMO.  Because all the good MMO's have a storyline.  Heck, even WoW has a frickin' storyline.  It's covered, most of the time, but it's there.

Heh, tell that to games like World of Warcraft.  Most MMOs I've sampled have little to nothing in terms of actual story, just some kind of background where the story takes place.

Either way, a role playing game needs to include role playing.  So, story.  Besides, quests ARE story.  Granted, some quests make it more evident than others, but any time you interact with an NPC, complete a goal, that's all story.  Boss battles are ESPECIALLY story points...  Making a game is like writing a book where someone else fills in the details.

A basic story is all you really need for any game. There are RPGs without crazy storylines.

...So this is like gamemaker for Online games?... Sounds pretty cool.

Anywho, it sounds like a lot of fun, so long as it allows for some decent customization.  I don't wanna be stuck with canon classes if I'm playing a custom character, for example.  At the same time, though, don't let people do whatever, or you'll come across problems with tweakers.

I'm not sure about Game Maker, Charon...  I do know, however, that BYOND is a bit of a hassle sometimes, but most of the important stuff is built in,  and does most of the work for ya.  And Role...  My setup will have premade classes based on build.  The currently existing classes will make a return appearance, but they will not be the only classes.  I plan on, at some point, making werewolves playable, as well as beastmen...  But not for a while, I'm afraid.

So... define build.  Right now, you should choose "physical" or "magical", but then you should have a variety of weapons to choose from to make up your build.

Forgive me if I sound... brash or something, it's just, I really want to know as much as I can for mechanics about these things, that's why I was as detailed as I was when I listed it in the MMO thread.

Lol, Role, I already defined build...  Right before you asked just how multiplayer the game is.

Ah, Build is two different things for us then.  Build here is the equipment selection, and often is what's used to identify if they're physical or magical.  That would be their role in battle, where we tend to use terms like "The Squire", "The Guard", and "The Angel"... so I guess the confusion was based upon terminology used.

I'm gonna disagree a bit with having five stock classes... Name, Stats, and Spell Selection I could see being chosen separately.  It allows for a wider variety within the game.  First thing they need to answer is "Physical or Magical?".  GS really doesn't work well with "Hybrid" types, since... well, everyone is a spellcaster.

Well, I suppose I need to explain further...  And I did put build in quotes the first time, indicating that I didn't have a better term for it at the time.  Anyways...  The four options I provided DO help choose weapon type as well, but that's not all.  What I mean in this case is this:  Felix and Isaac are both fighters and healers, basically, they're Combat Medics.  Thus, they're good at both.  But Garet, in particular, is just a Fighter, and it shows in his added physical strength; he's more of a bashie character than the two Venus adepts.  Jenna is what I call a Caster; she RELIES on casting, much like Ivan and Sheba.  I consider Mia to be a Healer...  Mind you, these are simply base options.  The Sneak is a little something extra; not everyone is a traditional protagonist.  Alex is, in my mind, a Sneak, shown more by personality than power, as we never actually get a glimpse at his psynergy list.  Choosing one of the options to specialize in makes you stronger in that aspect, but horribly flawed in the opposing aspect:  You can't be a Fighter and a Caster, it's conflicting.  You choose to specialize in fighting, you lose points in casting.  You could be a Fighter/Sneak, though, or a Fighter/Healer....  Also, you can't be a Sneak and a Healer, that's insane.  (Yes, I know my example with Alex would disprove that, but I never said he was built in this particular way....  I was using him as a character example, not a setup example.)  If you're going to be a little shady, you can't be goody goody enough to heal...  Alex is obviously beyond this; he was born into the Mercury Clan and grew up learning healing magic, so, well, he doesn't quite fall into this, although as Dark Dawn points out, any adept can learn things outside their boundaries, it just takes more work.  (Karis points out that Tyrell hasn't learned how to control the wind and thus can't use a Soarwing, yet Isaac and Garet clearly had planned on using the Soarwing, thus implying that they could, neither of whom is a Jupiter adept and thus meaning that they learned to do something beyond their element; GS 1 & 2 also imply it as Garet and Isaac trained to learn Move, a Mars psynergy, when only one of them was, in fact, Mars aligned.)  This is my reasoning behind being able to learn and master a second element in GS BYOND...

Anyways, based on the options one chooses, it determines that "physical or magical" question already:  Healer and Caster are both magical, Sneak and Fighter are both physical.  But you'll note that they are different in that, for instance, Sneak can't use an axe, but they can use swords.

Incidentally, that reminds me that I was planning on putting in a couple new weapon types.  For instance, Great Swords...  And putting in bows from Dark Dawn, that made so much sense it was uncanny.

Edit:  Also, now that I'm thinking about it, I'd like to know something.  I've been considering whether I should make the djinn limit 9 or 10.  What do you guys think?

...So the generic Cleric, Wizard, DPS, Tank setup?

Go with 9 djinn - I don't even know how to approach a ten djinn setup yet.  Tri-Element and Tri-Hybrid classes are a nightmare with those.

GS multiplier? This is cool.
Role every game (MMO) so far has the "generic" classes lol. Wonder how the healing class will be ... I usually play those >_<

If you need help with classes, character setups (stats and such) and maybe even a little spriting (NOVICE spriter lol) please let me know.

That's a BAD thing where I'm concerned.  I tire of those classes, and one of the big things about the potential with GS is that you've got a lot of things you can do with it.

While yes, there are a few base setups, there's many things you can do with those base setups.  There'd be four or five different "fighter" stat layouts, and four or five different "spell layouts" for each element.  This would let you keep the basic gist of the role of "Fighter", yet at the same time, you'd not be stuck with GS's system crippling build variance.  In most MMOs, they have branching paths, yet in this game you'd have naught but alt-classes.  As such, I suggest having the stats for the alt-classes be determined by your stat layout choice, and spells by the spell layout choice.  This allows for a nice variety of characters.

Also, I'd like to point out that DPS doesn't work in turn based combat.  I suggest Attacker, Defender, Wizard, and Healer for the base four instead.  Just... make sure you have that varied selection of each, otherwise it'll be four of the exact same thing for each element, which... well, that gets boring.

You know it'd actually be pretty cool if you could use djinn to make it so that each character could effectively sorta be each one of those classes... but dunno how you can implement djinn yet. I would align an elemental djinni's element with a certain fighting style (Venus = Attack, Mars = Defense, Mercury = Recovery and Jupiter = Magic), and since you can only have 9 djinn active at a time... you could align yourself to be an attacker, or maybe later be a healer if you really needed it, or perhaps a jack of all trades (but you'd be fairly weak then). It's not exactly like Golden Sun but there's a point where you need to accommodate the new format lol.

I'm going to set this topic sticky just because this is something I can see the whole community getting on board with. :)

@Kioll: I honestly think that allowing a Fighter/Caster would be doable: you'd end up as a glass cannon, with high-powered Psynergy and attacks, but little HP, PP, Def, and Luck. Basically, you hit hard in close or at range, but you can't keep hitting for very long before you burn out. You'd get EPAs like Planet Diver/Planetary, and Psynergy like Fume or Dire Inferno, high-power but high-cost series.

A standard Fighter has low PP, but his EPAs and Psynergy also tend to be on the utilitarian and low-cost end of the spectrum. Casters have very high PP, which enables them to spam high-cost Psynergy without worrying too much. But a Fighter/Caster has neither of those perks: Psynergy is high-cost, and max PP is low.

I'll look into the possibilities of a 10 djinn setup, if I can figure it out, I'll make a post on it...

And I like the idea of aligning elements to fighting styles, but you got Earth and Fire mixed up.  Earth is more defensive, Fire is more offensive.  And one of my ideas, although I wasn't sure about it yet, was to allow players to choose their two strongest stats and randomize the rest, which would effectively decide their sub-class.  As for the generic role thing...  What can I say?  I started on Tabletop games rather than video games, and my coding style reflects that.  I was figuring that most of the class variation would be in djinn setups...  Not even necessarily djinn elements, but specific djinn, like attack djinn...  Class names wouldn't be much different, but stats would vary greatly, allowing for different types of roles...  Certain djinn raise PP, allowing for stronger casting abilities, for instance...  And I suppose opposites mixing could result in a mediocre character, but I've always played every game under the assumption that PC's are exceptional members of their peergroup.

I don't know what DPS means, but I assume you are referring to the Sneak...  And this is how I planned on it working in turn-based combat...  I plan on giving them psynergies that allow them to "hide", for instance, things such as Haze in basic effect, albeit with a chance of failure, with high PP costs, and it would be a two-turn attack, allowing them to have a chance to surprise their opponent with increased damage if they don't fail to hide...  If they fail to hide, they take increased damage.  They also receive unique utility psynergy.

Charon, I am surprised but pleased about the sticky; thank you tremendously.

Right now, the best way people can help is providing me with as much information on game mechanics and possible code improvements as possible.  Also, Role, I love your ideas, I will be doing my best to try to work them in with my existing ideas...

Quote from: Kioll on 22, November, 2011, 01:16:34 PM
I don't know what DPS means, but I assume you are referring to the Sneak... 

DPS means Damage Per Second. DPS classes tend to be like Ninjas, Thieves, Archers and that. They also tend to have low HP but have good Agility in return. They have fast attacks, but because of their low HP, you should always do quests with a party, usually like DPS, Tank, Healer.

Tank is a close combat type with good HP, Attack, Defence, that acts basically like a meat shield, protecting weaker (in terms of HP and Defence) party members, distracting enemies by getting up close to them while Casters prepare their spells and DPSs use their long range attacks on the enemies. Tanks are usually Knights, Paladins, Barbarians (WoW Death Knights count, too) and other warrior classes.

Wow, that took longer than I expected to write.

Quote from: Kioll on 22, November, 2011, 01:16:34 PM
I'll look into the possibilities of a 10 djinn setup, if I can figure it out, I'll make a post on it...

You're not limited by rules of Golden Sun's class system, so 10 djinn per character is certainly possible if you want. By the sound of it, you're going to make some changes to how the game works anyway.

Quote from: Kioll on 22, November, 2011, 01:16:34 PM
And I like the idea of aligning elements to fighting styles, but you got Earth and Fire mixed up.  Earth is more defensive, Fire is more offensive.

I think that's a good approach too, GS already does this indirectly. About Earth and Fire, in GS canon Fire gets the more defensive classes and traits while Earth is the strongest element offensively. But Fire is generally considered to be the number one element for offense, at least from what I've seen.

Anyway, I really like the direction you're going in with this. I can't get very in-depth with it at the moment though, I'll have to get back later with some more constructive feedback. At least I can direct you to this (http://www.gamefaqs.com/gba/561356-golden-sun-the-lost-age/faqs/22880) document, which describes some of the mechanics and formulas you can't see in the editor. While it does explain the class system, it only does so to the extent of what is used in the original game. It will still save you a lot of questions if you haven't read it already.

Rofl, I understood Tanks...  Damage per second isn't going to have anything to do with this...  I don't know where anyone got that idea from.  Personally, my favorite and best characters are usually the thieving types, so I like to include that kind of thing.  As for tank...  I suppose you could call fighters that...  I'm not really too worried about it at the moment.

I want to keep the game as close to the original system as possible, while still expanding it to be multi-player...  One of the ideas I'm toying with is a separation between story mode (follow the original storyline, possibly even with the original characters....) and Multiplayer mode...  But that would require a lot of extra mapping (then again, mapping isn't all that hard...) and a bunch of extra code (which wouldn't be too hard, really), so it may wait for a bit.

I figured that the djinn would act kind of like an additional set of equipment - however, instead of being a set of gear to boost your stats, it's a set of abilities that assist your build.  Now, to prevent it being broken, djinn would need some kind of value.  You'd be limited to how many of each value you can use, and the class system further limits attempts at broken setups.

For example, let's say that djinn are ranked:

You can have as many C Rank Djinn as you want, up to the max of 9.
You can have up to 3 B Rank Djinn.
You can have up to 2 A Rank Djinn.
If 10 Djinn classes, then there's also 1 S rank you can have.

The rank is determined by the type and power of the ability.  The stronger abilities have stronger ranks, and harder quests to obtain them.  Djinn can be traded between players, but only djinn of the same rank can be traded - you cannot trade a C rank for a B rank, for example.  You can also part ways with djinn you no longer are interested in, so if you have 8 C rank and want more B rank djinn, you can.  I think we should also have some kind of limit for how many djinn they can have.  Perhaps based on level - the higher the level, the more slots open up for djinn.  Since this is a massive multiplayer game, that'd probably be a necessity.

@DPS:  You had Fighter and... Sneak, I think.  Something like that.  Fighter gives off a Tank like image, while the other one you said was more about speed... well, speed/stealth based physical types are typically DPS.  That's why it gave off a DPS impression, especially with the name you used.  Warrior and Defender might be better names for them, as they're more clearly attacker and defender.

As far as GS trends go, while Misery is accurate in saying that Venus is more attacking and Mars more defensive, keep in mind that you should allow for a bit of flexibility.  Mars shouldn't always equal tank, after all.  I think build and element should be separate.  While element does have a little bit of influence in stats, the influence is far stronger in terms of spell and class selection than statistical layout.  Build should be the major factor as far as stats are concerned.

@Jamie:  Everyone is a caster in Golden Sun.  Fighters have a smaller mana pool, as well as physical damage output.  Mages have a larger mana pool, but on a whole tend to trend faster.  I imagine he's gonna tweak it a bit, but how I'm not too certain.  Still, everyone can cast spells in GS.




Also, one more thing - PvE, or PvP oriented?  It's a pain in the @#$ to do both and have it be balanced.  I lean more towards PvE, but... that's just me.

Actually, I was considering non-adepts as another option...  But anyways, the djinn rank thing I can sorta see, it would need a lot of tweaking, though.  The reason I won't call Sneak "Defender" is because it's not a defensive character, more of an evasive one.  As for stats, base stats will not be affected by elements:  The only stats determined by element will be elemental power and resist.  All others will be randomized, with the possible choice of two specializations, as I mentioned before.

PvE.  Tolbi colluseum and other arenas will be the only PvP areas.

Djinn would be separated into types, Attack/Damage, Defense/Resist/Evade, Healing/Status Inflicting, Spell/Buff.  These types will end up affecting specific stats based on their type, creating added customization to the character.  Want a Caster who can kick some @#$?  All attack Djinn will give you some decent Attack, but your Psynergy won't be as useful as if you had taken all Spell djinn instead.  Also, Standby Djinn will, as in the games, not affect stats.

As for the Venus/Mars thing, I see earth more as forming a barrier, thus more defensive; I suppose if the game has them typically more offensive, I will look into it, although from what I've been able to tell (I always play mono-elemental classes), most of the Mars Adepts aren't very defensive unless you mess with their djinn settings.

Well, in GS the canon trends are:

Venus:  Attack (A steel blade)
Mars:  Defense (A firewall)
Jupiter:  Agility (An agile warrior)
Mercury:  Luck/Ailment Resist (...I got nothing).

You can take that into consideration if you want, but... it's probably a better idea to use it in regards to spells, not to stats.

I see...  Well, in that case...  Ah, it's not important right now.  What is important right now is that I start defining the class list so I can get all the planning done...  So I suppose I should start with base classes; feel free to help out, guys.

Classes are separated by element and build:  Fighter/Mars = Guard, for example...  (I only want one for each combination for base classes, except in instances where it might vary by gender;  It is easier to code a single base class and then allow the character to customize their class from there, including possibly customizing their base class with the right in-game items (not class items, but one-use items to change base class) if you get the idea.)

So, build options are Fighter, Sneak, Caster, Healer, Combat Medic (Fighter/Healer), Assassin (Fighter/Sneak), Swords and Sorcery (Fighter/Caster), Warlock (Sneak/Caster), Rogue Healer (Sneak/Healer), Acolyte (Caster/Healer).  These are preliminary names to give some sort of description, not final names or anything.  I just haven't come up with better ones.  If you guys come up with better names for the mixes, please, share, and I'll edit them in.  But for the moment, we have 10 builds and 4 elements.  That should result in 40 base classes and thus a wide variety to choose from...

Whoops, almost forgot what we've already got...

Squire = Combat Medic + Venus
Guard = Fighter + Mars
Wind Seer = Caster + Jupiter
Water Seer = Healer + Mercury
Mariner = Combat Medic + Mercury
Flame User = Caster + Mars
Miko = Caster + Venus

Ummm...  I can't think of the rest...  I'd put Pirate down, but I have no idea how that would be an actual base class, I'd suppose that I'd have to make that more of a customized class...

Actually, as far as I'm concerned, Mariner is just the mercury approach to a traditional Squire.  Hell, DD even calls it "Aqua Squire".  It's the exact same class as Mariner, just with a different name - same stats, same spells, etc.

Basically, trends here tend to be:

The Squire - a primarily attacker based class, but has healing on the side.  It's like an offensive oriented paladin.
The Guard - a tank. Slow, but with great defense and respectable attack.
The Sorcerer - a support unit.  It's fast, and has many offensive abilities, but the main perk of the role is support - buffs and debuffs, basically.
The Angel - a traditional fantasy healer.  They've got both ST and MT healing, as well as ailment recovery and/or revival.
The Justice - the Mage's answer to the Squire.  Gets MT healing instead of ST healing, has respectable physical stats as well.  Though it has the lowest magical stats of the mages, it can fall back to attacking far easier than they can.  Closest thing to a Red Mage/Magic Knight as you can get.
The Miko - an offensive mage, the primary role is magical damage.  They may have a buff or two, but unlike the Sorcerer, their main focus is dishing out damage, not support.

There's also:

The Pirate - this class is a knockoff of another class.  Example, making a magic version of a physical class, or physical version of a magical class. It shares most of the signature spell lines as the other classes, but as a whole is deemed unoriginal and disappointing, and tends to be frowned upon.
The Prince - the is even worse than the pirate.  It actually is another class, down to the last detail, just given another name.  It's like they didn't even try.


Builds are not restricted to element, and often times when some of us are trying to make a class, we'll reference the build to give a better example of what we want to do with it.  For example, DCrisis has a Jovian Squire build, and a Venusian Angel build.

Edit:  Why is this topic pinned?

Like I was saying, I want to make a base class for each combination of role/build/whatever you want to call it and element.  Although I suppose just giving each build a base class and having that base class in each element would be somewhat easier, it loses something, I suppose.  I'm not really sure what it is that's lost, I just know something's missing.

Well, I'm advising against that, really.  Instead, try this:

4 elements
4 builds (attacker, defender, wizard, healer)
3 stat layouts (for each build)
3 spell layouts (again, for each build and element)

Now, this leads to a form of simplicity, but also adds a nice variety to the game.  You have the four elements and four builds you wanted.  That's great, so it's not too complex.  Three stat layouts per build allows for a bit more customization.  Maybe I want to be a faster attacker, maybe I want a bit more defense, or maybe I wanna be somewhere in between.

Then you have spells.  Who says I want to use Stone as a venusian?  Screw quake, I want Growth!  What's wrong with a plant-based spell lineup?  Who says I want to use Ice as a mercurian?  Maybe I want to be a water specialist instead.  There's two solid, undisputed forms for each element.  They are:

Venus:  Stone and Plant
Mars:  Flame and Blast
Jupiter:  Wind and Lightning
Mercury:  Water and Ice

The three options?  Specialist for form A (Like Isaac), specialist for form B (Like Sveta), or someone who uses a bit of both (Like Ivan).

So it stays rather simple, but not everyone is exactly the same for those classes.  Get what I'm trying to say now?  You don't have to be doing all of that, you can keep the four you were aiming for, but also allow for some versatility.

Afterall, unlike most MMOs, a GS mmo won't allow for something important - build variance.  Look at WoW and stuff like that - you have power and branches that you improve and focus in.  GS doesn't allow for such a thing, so you have to have a different way of doing that.  That is done in two ways - initial stat and spell lines allow for a class variance, which is the first way to do it.  The other way is equipment and djinn - add a nice variety to encourage many different play styles.

Well, as I stated before, the second build isn't so much about defense as it is about evasion.  Anyways, stat layouts aren't really going to be an issue.  Like I said, my plan, at the moment, is to let people choose their two best stats, depending on build of course.  Like a fighter won't get an option for a high PP, but High HP, Attack, Defense, and Agility are all viable options.  As for the spell layouts, I suppose that is a viable option, and could help cause different class setups.  And since I'm on the topic, I may make secondary class traits be a later choice...  I know Felix, Isaac, and Piers all start out as Combat Medics, but that doesn't mean that the MMO should have things work that way...  It's something to keep in mind, I suppose.

@Role: Yes, everyone can cast spells. The difference is that Fighters have lower PP pools, but also less costly, lower-power spells. A Caster has high PP, and higher cost/higher power spells to go with. Thus, a Fighter/Caster has the low PP and high Attack of the Fighter, and the high-power/high-cost spells of the Caster. The character's focus is thus on dealing as much damage as possible in the shortest amount of time as possible, with no thought to conserving PP, and little defensive ability. Prefers questing in groups, so that it can conserve its limited PP for the boss fight.

Also, a Fighter/Caster solo would require a lot of psycrystals and similar PP regen items and gear, leaving them unable to go for a lot of the "better" gear

...Uh, what?  Did I miss something?  Why are we talking about how fighters have lower PP?  No duh, I said that myself last page.  Also, Kioll, there is no evasion stat in golden sun.

No, but there is agility.  And adding a simple line of code saying that agility can allow you to dodge an attack...  Isn't hard.  Also, Jamie was referring to an earlier part of the conversation.

Edit:  Actually, I might make it a function of agility + defense / 2

Oh, so not referring to me.  I was all O.o at that, since that's basically what I said earlier.

I also... kinda disapprove of your idea of speed=evasion.  That could seriously break the game.

I thought about that basically right after I said it, thus the edit.  Also, if nothing else, I can add an evasion stat.  It really isn't that hard.  After all, this is completely from the ground up, remember?

That's still pretty overpowered.  I think it's a better idea to have them be the attackers, and fighters be defenders.

Dunno yet, Jiten...  And I don't see how evasion is overpowered when it's applied to all combatants...  Also, evasion wouldn't work if you're defending anyways, just so you know, since you're focusing on absorbing the damage instead of hiding from it.  Enemies get evasion too, ya know.  Just some characters are better at it than others.

@Role: Actually, I was referring to what you said... two pages ago? Somewhere like that. Where you said that a Fighter/Caster wouldn't really work because everyone can cast. The difference isn't in the casting ability, but in the styles of Psynergy they get. While a straight Fighter would get moves more based on their utility, a Caster gets Psynergy both for practicality and pure damage. A Fighter/Caster, however, gets Psynergy strictly oriented towards a high-damage offense.

How so? It makes the Agility stat actually useful for something. I think making evasion only a /2 really wouldn't work. Actually, maybe (Attacker's Agility)/(0.5 x Attacker's Level) - Target's Luck (or similar) would work better?

I for one would like to see Agility being a little more useful, as long as there is a stat to counter evasion as well (something like attack vs agility), although maybe you shouldn't decide on it in such an early stage. But as you can see, you're already starting to deter from the GS battle system where hit/miss has a preset chance. I think the health of the game should take priority even if you want to stay true to the original, GS as it is isn't very balanced.

Quote from: Jiten on 22, November, 2011, 08:19:42 PM
Do you plan to have an easter egg or two occur ?

You don't plan easter eggs, they're the least important part of a game.

Rofl, Jamie, I said defense + agility divided by 2.  Average the stats together, lol.  And to be fair, agility is only slightly underused in the games.  It does, after all, determine order of attack...

Quote from: JamietheFlameUser on 22, November, 2011, 08:45:11 PM
@Role: Actually, I was referring to what you said... two pages ago? Somewhere like that. Where you said that a Fighter/Caster wouldn't really work because everyone can cast. The difference isn't in the casting ability, but in the styles of Psynergy they get. While a straight Fighter would get moves more based on their utility, a Caster gets Psynergy both for practicality and pure damage. A Fighter/Caster, however, gets Psynergy strictly oriented towards a high-damage offense.

How so? It makes the Agility stat actually useful for something. I think making evasion only a /2 really wouldn't work. Actually, maybe (Attacker's Agility)/(0.5 x Attacker's Level) - Target's Luck (or similar) would work better?

I said that a true-to-form hybrid build can't really exist, since by technicality even fighters gets caster-style spells in GS.  With that in mind, you may as well not try - now, there are things like the Squire and Justice which are close, but they're still clearly one or the other.

@Agility:  I don't see why we can't have some attacks use this as their source of power.  Speed-style attacks, in other words.  You know Vorpal Slash, Swift Sword, and that double slash thing from the bandit's sword?  I could see those being converted to use AGL instead of ATK as their attack stat.  I think that'd be a much better approach to it, rather than some attempt at evasion.


Look at it this way:

Fighter:  The Tank, their main stats are HP, ATK, and DEF
Sneak:  The Attacker, their main stats are HP, ATK, and AGL
Wizard:  The offensive caster, their main stats are PP and AGL
Healer:  The defensive caster, their main stats are PP and LUK

The point of the sneak, though, is that they don't have exceptional attack OR HP.  They only survive BECAUSE they evade, and I think that's the point that you're missing Role.  Don't get me wrong, I like your ideas, but it doesn't seem as though you're giving my ideas a chance...

The point you're missing is that that doesn't work in golden sun.  I am offering alternatives that will.

I understand that it doesn't work in Golden Sun canon.  But this ISN'T canon.  And as earlier pointed out, tweaking is necessary, especially to work on BYOND.  Besides, the stats used in the game are only necessarily applicable to characters and NPC's who fight.  And as I've already pointed out that I intend to introduce new types of characters, it follows that new mechanics need to be introduced to make those characters plausible.  I said I wanted to be as close to the original as I could, not be a clone of it.

...Well, you've lost me.  I really don't get much about this right now.  I can understand adding a magic attack and defense stat, but this... I dunno.  I'm not really sure it's a good idea.  You're adamant on it, so from now you'll get to do whatever, but... I really don't know about the concept of a blink tank in golden sun.  It's not something I associate with the series.

So... yeah, I guess I'll pop in once you get some more solid examples and a bit of a game build set up, but right now I'm just gonna direct you to Leaf to figure out how to pull off this evasion thing.  Once I get a working example and see how it fits in, I can make a better suggestion for it, but... right now, I've got nothing, I'm rather unfamiliar with that style of build.

Solid example of my current plan for the gameplay mechanics incorporating evasion into the process of attacking:

When a physical attack is dealt, the first thing the game checks for as it stands originally is whether or not the defensive power of the other character is strong enough to withstand the attack.  This will still be there, but I will add something in front of it.

A character will either have a percentage chance to evade based on Agility or a unique Evasion stat, or the code will include a speed for each specific attack, altered by the user's agility.  If the evading character has a speed higher than that of the attack, then they'd dodge.  I'm not sure which mechanic will be used, but either have essentially the same effect:  Characters have a chance to dodge an incoming attack instead of sitting there and hoping that they don't take too much damage.  Of course, the chance of specific characters being able to accomplish this varies on which mechanic is used, but that is what playtesting is for.

I meant in-game.  As in, not text, but an actual working example I can play.  Something more hands on, because we seem to misunderstand each other quite a bit.

Ah.  Well, in a 4-6 months when it's in alpha testing, I'll clue you in, rofl.

Jiten, things like that are supposed to be afterthoughts.  Right now, there's more important things, like game balance and mechanics to consider.

Jiten... you know this is supposed to be a Golden Sun MMO, right?

I'm going to take the existing structure, recreate it, then rework and improve from there.  In other words, I don't need stats, that's all done already.

The only stats I could see being added would be Spell Power and Spell Resist, so that mages could fight on par with fighters, but none of that crazy statfest.

QuoteThe only stats I could see being added would be Spell Power and Spell Resist, so that mages could fight on par with fighters, but none of that crazy statfest.

Spell Power and Resist are more like a must for mages ... else we will be stuck with low spell damage ...

Having attacking spells that is based on agility is nice.

Oh and you are not gonna include any Archers? or does this fall under the sneak part?

Bows are going to be available in general...  Although I might make a class item that turns you into an Archer, if enough people want an Archer-specific class.  I doubt that, though.  As for spell power and spell resist,  I'm considering using elemental power for that, probably include a few ways to raise elemental power and resist...  Whether they be results of level ups or items or what have you.  At the moment, though, I haven't decided how it's going to work.  That's still in the works.

One thing I'd suggest would be having an average build, with reasonable stats in everything. And a few spells with multipliers.

There could be a ranged combat specialist option for character, they'd use Bows, Crossbows and Guns, and other such weapons.

Guns seem a bit unlikely in a GS theme game.

Quote from: Durza on 23, November, 2011, 04:13:30 PM
Guns seem a bit unlikely in a GS theme game.

I didn't mean modern guns, I mean early guns, like the ones in the 15-17 centuries.

QuoteThere could be a ranged combat specialist option for character, they'd use Bows, Crossbows and Guns, and other such weapons.

That type of build will be fun to play >_<

QuoteI didn't mean modern guns, I mean early guns, like the ones in the 15-17 centuries.

Well they had canons ... so why not guns lol.

Also I wanted to ask .. what are you gonna do about damage formula? If you are gonna use the ones already in game then you will need to create a new one for the elemental power. Also making elemental power raise with level ups would be cool ... that and we can still have it raised with items (assuming you are gonna go with that also).

Quote from: Tetsuya the Azure Blade on 23, November, 2011, 04:19:40 PM

Quote from: Durza on 23, November, 2011, 04:13:30 PM
Guns seem a bit unlikely in a GS theme game.

I didn't mean modern guns, I mean early guns, like the ones in the 15-17 centuries.

They'd take far too long to re load. Even a crossbow would be pushing it for a turn every round since the rounds are as long as it takes to hit someone with your sword.

Quote from: Durza on 24, November, 2011, 07:37:54 AM

Quote from: Tetsuya the Azure Blade on 23, November, 2011, 04:19:40 PM

Quote from: Durza on 23, November, 2011, 04:13:30 PM
Guns seem a bit unlikely in a GS theme game.

I didn't mean modern guns, I mean early guns, like the ones in the 15-17 centuries.

They'd take far too long to re load. Even a crossbow would be pushing it for a turn every round since the rounds are as long as it takes to hit someone with your sword.

But, Crossbows are IN GS! Those Tuaparang mook guys use Crosssbows.

And guns from the 15th century took far longer to reload than crossbows.

Guns are a no...  Yes, in thirty years between TLA and Dark Dawn, technology vastly improved; that said, this isn't set after Dark Dawn, no matter how awesome that would be.  No to guns.  Crossbows maybe.  Ranged specialization would be something your character does, not a build you choose.  You choose to specialize in ranged combat, choose your stats wisely, then, so that you can get your shot in.  Damage formulas are going to be as close to the original as possible, and I've already heard all the stuff about having to add stuff to make casting more viable, but thank you.  The average build option is a good idea, though.  Probably call it Traveler, though...  Anyways, great ideas.  ^^

Quote from: Role on 22, November, 2011, 09:40:16 PMSo... yeah, I guess I'll pop in once you get some more solid examples and a bit of a game build set up, but right now I'm just gonna direct you to Leaf to figure out how to pull off this evasion thing.  Once I get a working example and see how it fits in, I can make a better suggestion for it, but... right now, I've got nothing, I'm rather unfamiliar with that style of build.

I see I've been summoned.

If you want to keep as close to the original games as possible, the "sneak" build isn't going to work as a generic build. Instead of permeating the entire game with an added evasion check, the simplest solution to still allow for a blink tank to exist in GS without interfering with general battle would be to make it a specific item class, since item classes have the ability to go slightly outside normal game mechanics without feeling too out of place. In this case, the item class would have low atk/def/hp multipliers compared to the standard fare, but in exchange have the unique ability to dodge with a high rate of success. We can figure out the exact formula later, but it would probably pull from agility. Maybe something like 2*(defender agility - attack agility)/10, as the percentage chance to dodge. That would (in general) make it easy to dodge physical blows and difficult to dodge psynergy, since mages tend to have higher agility than warriors.

I also wanna talk to you about how to pull off the different classes and ensuring there's a variety, but I think that'd be easier to do over skype. However much I hate to agree with role, I think she's off to the right start.

One problem with psynergy dodging is that wide range psynergy would logically be far harder for the central target to dodge than those on the edges. I'm not sure if you could code that in.

Also, I'd suggest Wanderer instead of Traveller, but that's just because of where I live.

Wanderer works, and yes, I could code that, Durza.  Thank you.  And you bring up an interesting point, Leaf.  Sounds like something to take into consideration.  And making the item hard to find and/or an event item would keep the number of players using it down.  Sounds like a great idea.

If you just change Delusion to give a chance of evading Psynergy as well, then any class which has Delude or Mist in its natural moveset becomes a fairly effective blink tank.

Actually, I was thinking of adding a few new psynergies that have something to that effect.  I believe I outlined one of them, but I could be mistaken...  It's a two-turn attack, the first turn of which you vanish into the shadows, if you succeed, you perform an attack the next round with added damage.  If you fail, your defense drops and you take extra damage for a couple of rounds.

...So battles aren't done GS style then?

Actually, they are, at least according to Kioll, and that's what's weird about it. See, blink tanks, or even tanks in general, don't really work in GS's system, because GS doesn't have battle positioning at all. No combat rows or anything like in some RPGs.

Tanks do, they just need a cover ability like Sveta has.  What doesn't work are Blink Tanks, and the concept of "ranged fighters".

True. Both those things only work as thematics, but wouldn't actually have anything different from a regular character class.

Blink tanks can sort of work, if they have an ability that lets them go invisible for one turn, but can only be used once every two turns. See, what you do is when Dullahan uses Element Swap, you stealth. Then your blink tank is the only one to survive him Charon-ing the rest of your party, so you go spam Revive or Water of Life on everyone else. A thief-like build really can be done in GS's battle system, but not if the combat is to remain balanced in GS's style. For example, I could totally take a character and give them: an ability to steal HP from opponents, an ability that allows them to remove the target's next turn, an ability that allows them to cloak or barrier themselves, etc.

No, I don't think that'd be a very good idea.  A class that works around avoiding damage entirely could easily wind up broken.  You have to think not in terms of other RPG types of characters and more with GS specific types. There can be minor tweaks for variety, such as adding the ability to have one character cover, or take damage for another.  This would help Tanks like Garet be much more useful.  However, I don't think that Kio seems to care... I've tried to reason several times, but he's quite insistent.  It's why I'm waiting to see how exactly this is going to turn out, because I may just be misunderstanding how this is going to turn out in the end - for all I know, it could be a very different game but with GS style mechanics, battle may not even be the same.  So I'm waiting for context, because for all we know BYNOD may have a specific battle system it works with, and we're "expected" to know that...

BYOND has whatever battle system you program. There is nothing preset.

I see.  So in that case, I definitely need to see a sample of what he wants to do with it before I say anything else, because having range doesn't work outside of AoE with GS' battle system - this tells me he's gonna be changing it quite drastically, so I'm gonna want to see just what he has planned before I help anymore.  I can't exactly help if we have two very different things in mind, after all.  Leaf should know that more than anyone, after our discussion for the SRPG we had a while back.

I'm not adding a ranged combat system.  This has nothing to do with that.  Basically, the major difference about the psynergy in question is that it's A, a two-turn attack, and B, you basically vanish the first turn, IF it works, and the next turn you attack with added damage.  I don't see how the concept is hard to understand.  It's all a matter of how you display the icons, not really a big issue.  As for the ability for it to break...  the chance of success will be the major balancing factor.  As I said before, if you don't succeed, you take more damage...  And setting it up to be an item class would further obscure it.  I don't intend to break my own game, I just want to add something that could easily be incorporated to help the choices appeal to a broader personality range.  I, for one, like playing thiefy types.  The frailty helps to further balance the character...  Anyways, most of this is still conceptual, the real test of whether or not these things stay the way they are in my head at the moment is when it gets to playtesting.

@Role: As I said, you CAN do a thief-type build in GS's engine, but NOT in GS's playstyle.

@Jamie:  That kind of defeats the point, IMO.

Actually, I've done some looking through the Golden Sun psynergies and effects, and I've discovered something.  A "Backstab" psynergy ALREADY EXISTS within Golden Sun: TLA.  In fact, other than some of the psynergy choices (which end up reminding me more of Gambit than anything, although he himself fits the description), the Pierrot class series is about 75-80% accurate to the ideas I had for the Sneak in general.  A few added psynergies, probably taken from djinn effects or new ideas, and it would basically be exactly what I was talking about.  Also, the class stats are slightly off, but that's not that big of a deal.

And Role...  This is aimed specifically at you.  I like a fair amount of your ideas, I do.  And I don't like to argue with people, but here's the thing.  You stopped contributing positive, constructive ideas about 3 or 4 pages ago.  If you don't like the ideas behind this game, then don't post.  And to negative criticism in general...  If you have something to say, say it.  Give it a reason for being constructive.  If you can't do that, then (And pardon me, for this, admins, but it must be said...) shut your damn trap about it, ignore this thread, and MOVE ON.  >.>  I don't care whether you think it's SUPPOSED to exist.  Worlds change, it's a fan-made game, and you're not the mind behind it.  So, if you don't want anything to do with the way I am going to make this game, then shove it where the sun doesn't shine and get the **** out of the thread.  >.>  <.<  >.<

I didn't say crossbows were too advanced for the setting, but guns are.  Thank you, though.

A possible suggestion for keeping within the GS battle-style: Instead of having the psynergy make the caster dodge everything, instead make it either reduce or increase damage they take by 75% for the first turn, then strike on the second.

Another idea for the disappear-strike would be to have four different psynergies, each one dodging all but a single element. Maybe have four classes with access to one, and the single Thief class who can use all of them. Just spamming ideas there, ignore it if you want.

I'll probably put that in for dodging area attacks, or something similar anyways.  Single attacks, however, I don't think will incorporate that.

For a disappear-strike attack, I would hardly consider it broken. Think about dig and fly in Pokémon. You merely stall on the first turn, take two turns to do one attack, give away your next action, and leave yourself with no way to adapt if the situation changes on the next turn (which can happen in some of the harder battles). Unless you allow for choosing a new action on the same turn you attack, but that would be stupid.

Quote from: Durza on 28, November, 2011, 06:02:46 AM
Another idea for the disappear-strike would be to have four different psynergies, each one dodging all but a single element. Maybe have four classes with access to one, and the single Thief class who can use all of them. Just spamming ideas there, ignore it if you want.

Gives me another idea (although it may not be all that original). Have a psynergy that makes you immune to a single element on the turn it's used. For a fast character it could actually be pretty viable if there are any particularly threatening elemental attacks (and even most physical skills are elemental). There's nothing quite like it in GS, but I don't think it feels too out of style.

For a similar idea, have the character perform a counterattack when hit by an attack of the right element. To actually reflect the attack would be a bit too powerful, but using a counter like with the Reflux djinn should be fine.

I don't think reflecting would be too powerful, or at least basing the counter's strength on the strength of the initial attack, considering it only counters one element. Certainly, being able to perfectly reflect Cruel Ruin would be unfair, but being able to counter with an Added Damage move with the same base power value (so, for cruel ruin, +200), wouldn't be too bad.

A +200 added damage could be pretty bad though. I don't think that any psynergies went above 120. If it were simply cast back again with its base power it might be more reasonable.

Not on Cruel Ruin, it wouldn't, because of summon damage. +200 hurts, but again, this is on a boss's signature move, and it only counters one element. If you give the boss one ubermove per element, then it's a guessing game. If you cast Cruel Ruin back on the boss, you'd be hitting for over 1500 damage!

If I put a reflect power in, it would never be a full-power reflect.  As most reflections are imperfect and energy reflected goes every direction, pretty much, half strength would be the max I'd use.

Taking my time to look through this a little closer and write down what I think. It looks like Role had almost exactly the same idea of how to approach this as I did, more specifically, give all builds the option to choose between all four elements. I'm thinking class and equipment builds should be related though, this helps in making classes more unique, and there's no good reason for your mage to equip a giant sword anyway.

I also agree that there should be Agility based attack skills, but usable exclusively by the "Stealth" build in place of Attack based skills.

Choosing between two types of psynergy (such as plant/stone for Venus) is another interesting idea that I also think you should include, giving the different types something to set them apart from each other of course. The Djinn rank suggestion is a great way to make the system more balanced, and I hadn't thought of that one at all.

I'm with pretty much everyone else here on having stats for increasing/reducing psynergy damage. While there is none in GS, I doubt players would mind the power of their damaging psynergy actually scaling with level like attack does. I suggest you call them Power and Resist (most people do), those are nice, simple and self explanatory names.

While I'm at it, a simple damage formula for the new stats. As you can see, it's the exact same formula used for normal attack damage, with a multiplier thrown in for the damage penalty of psynergy that hits more than one opponent.
Damage = ((((P - R) / 2) + B) * M) + N
P = Power of caster
R = Resist of target
B = Base damage of attack
M = Multiplier for area reduction (> 0, <= 1)
N = Random number between 0 and 3

To continue with this, below is a basic outline of how the four character builds you suggested at first could be done in a way that is close to the GS class system while remaining balanced, i.e. gives you incentive to pick any of the four builds. I've tried to make decisions based on my observations of the GS class system in favor of what I would've preferred myself.

Note that GS originally only has two builds, fighter and mage. Venus/Mars adepts are fighters while Jupiter/Mercury adepts are mages. This is another reason Piers sucks.

This will require a full set of classes for each of the four character builds, although in practice they will only be half sets due to Venus/Mars and Mercury/Jupiter sharing class builds in GS.
If healing is based on Power, casters and healers will both end up with killer spells and godly healing, which is the main reason I say there are only two builds in GS. Instead, I think each build should have its own list of healing psynergy (Pure Wish when used by a fighter would heal significantly less than when used by a healer).

First off, equipment that can be used by any build:
Clothing, gauntlets, caps/hats, boots, shirts and rings are available to everyone.
Male characters can equip light armor, female characters can equip dresses.
Stealth build characters cannot equip light armor or dresses.

Damaging, healing and status psynergy is available to all builds (but depends on class).
Healer builds of all elements get target one and target all healing in their base elemental class line.

Fighter
Gear: heavy armor, shield, helmet
Weapons: longsword, short sword, axe, mace
Psynergy: weak
Healing: weak
Abilities: attacking skills, buffs
Class bonus: none

+high Attack, Defense and HP
-low PP and Power

comments: Reliable damage dealers and boss killers with good all around stats, but are the least suited to casting psynergy out of the four builds.

Caster
Gear: armlet, circlet
Weapons: staff, ankh, bow, short sword
Psynergy: strong
Healing: medium
Abilities: attacking skills, offensive buffs/debuffs
Class bonus: none

+high PP, Power and Agility
-low HP and Defense

comments: The focus of this build is to do elemental damage. Their high PP allows them to use attack skills more often than fighters, and they have access to a wide range of support abilities.

Healer
Gear: armlet, circlet
Weapons: staff, ankh, mace
Psynergy: medium
Healing: strong
Abilities: defensive buffs/debuffs
Class bonus: Luck +5

+high PP, Resist and Luck
-low Attack, no attack skills

comments: A more defensive caster build, their Resist protects them from elemental damage and their Luck makes them less susceptible to status effects. While it's a good support build, healers themselves have no effective way to do damage. They start out with extra Luck, since it's a stat that doesn't increase with level.

Stealth
Gear: none
Weapons: short sword, staff, bow
Psynergy: medium
Healing: weak
Abilities: speciality psynergy, Agility based attack skills, debuffs, Avoid, Retreat
Class bonus: increased first strike chance, reduced risk of ambush

+high Agility and Luck
-other stats are average to low

comments: This is the build that currently doesn't have any real equivalent in GS. They can do damage by Agility based skills or psynergy, but it's more of a utility build and usually takes on a supporting role in combat, using their wide selection of special skills. If there are any unusual abilities, characters of this build will be the first in line to get it (i.e. they have a few exclusive skills). That's my take on this anyway, a build that attempts to be unique without being overspecialized (since in the GS class system, everyone  can do everything). I've suggested here that they start with Retreat and Avoid (both would be non-elemental), since they go along with the theme and are mainly convenience skills anyway.

Note: I've written all of this in a rather definite form, but it's really just suggestions. Most of it isn't just my own ideas either. But it's easier to continue if you can state which parts you agree with and not.

@Kio:  Sorry for the late reply, and I'm sorry I've been coming across that way, but... In my defense, the reason I stop contributing is because I don't understand what exactly it is you're trying to do.  So instead of being a @#$%& about it, I decided to wait and see it first hand so I get that "OH!  That's what he meant!" moment.  I don't mean to insult you or call your ideas bad or anything, I just don't quite understand what you mean by them, and can't quite comprehend how they'd work.  So I'm just going to wait until I can actually see it.

I didn't mean to offend, so if I did, I'm really sorry.

So, over the past few days I've been considering how I'm going to code battle mechanics.  I've found a few things to make the game work more like the original games...  The major difference, if all goes according to plan, will be the added mechanic of the mouse in certain places; the game will not be entirely keyboard run, at least at first.  Also, I have no way of spinning the battle field like the games do, so you'll always be looking at your character from behind while fighting.  I'm going to try and add in more keyboard macros to use with it once I figure out how to make them work.  Once I do, though, it will end up being, hopefully, much more true to the games...  I'm also considering using some of the Dark Dawn menu mechanics for a more streamlined appearance, although it will probably be a blend of old and new, when it comes to the menus.  That said, progress is slow at the moment, seeing as I'm the only one working on it.  But I've managed to set up the code and do enough research and planning to know that this game is entirely plausible.  Also, I've been testing a Sneak character in TLA, basically taking powers from various different classes and piling them together along with a couple of Djinn effects.  This class seems to fare in the just-below-average area.  If anyone else cares to test this character type, I can offer a setup...  Depending on how you want to test, you can change or add things, but that's up to you.

Class Level 1
HP 90%  PP 130%  Attack 80%  Defense 90%  Agility 140%  Luck 110%
Class Level 2
HP 100%  PP 140%  Attack 90%  Defense 100%  Agility 150%  Luck 110%
Class Level 1
HP 110%  PP 150%  Attack 100%  Defense 110%  Agility 160%  Luck 110%
Class Level 1
HP 120%  PP 160%  Attack 110%  Defense 120%  Agility 180%  Luck 110%
Class Level 1
HP 140%  PP 180%  Attack 130%  Defense 140%  Agility 210%  Luck 110%

(Yes, I know the agility is very high, but being as the character is otherwise fairly fragile...  Also, this is just playtesting, nothing decided for sure.)

2 sets of Battle Psynergy from your chosen element, one being fairly strong and high-cost, the other the opposite
1 set of Buff/Debuff or Healing Psynergy of your chosen element, plus other psynergies as you see fit...
1 Psynergy with Haze's effect (also with the Cloak utility, albeit it is essentially a useless psynergy in TLA)
1 Psynergy with Swift Strike's effect.
1 Psynergy with Back Stab's effect.
1 Psynergy with Kite's effect

Put these at appropriate levels with appropriate class levels, and you'll basically have what I've been testing.  If more people can help to test this setup, the feedback will help me make adjustments for its playability.

Now, my last comment is aimed at you, Role...  First off, I accept your apology, thank you.  Secondly, please, don't call me Kio.  Third and final; you wanted to play and see whether or not the Sneak idea would work.  This is your chance.  Be aware, of course, that it will be adjusted as necessary, but this covers pretty much everything I wanted to do with the character; and being that backstab already exists, I won't need to make that two-turn psynergy.  So, tell me how it works for you.

Realize, everyone, that this character setup is built to be usable by a single character, with or without a party, more likely without a party for the majority of the time, and keep in mind as well that the majority of the sneak, as I have it standing now, is going to be built mostly on the sub-psynergies you choose; meaning that only about a quarter of the psynergies are specific to the Sneak build.  Everything else you have is either based on your element and psynergy decisions, or earned through whatever quests or training you might go through to get it.

First, I nickname everyone.  You're no exception here.

Second, I'm gonna need to actually play it, as I said earlier.  What you put down on paper, and what winds up existing in practice, are often two very very different things.  On top of that, just telling me that won't work, because my approach to it is... vastly different than yours.  So even if I try to follow it, I'll very likely wind up making a class that works quite differently from what you were intending, due to my personal trends of balance.

Rather than risk getting a bad opinion based on inaccurate representation, as I've said before, I'm gonna wait for you to actually come out with the first playable model.  That way I know what you intended, not what I guess you intended.  You okay with that?

Quote from: Role on 05, December, 2011, 08:13:58 PM
I nickname everyone.  You're no exception here.

When he first joined, he asked to NOT be called that.

QuoteNovember 23, 2011, 02:11:38 AM - Kioll - Who are Kyon and Haruhi?  And please, not Kio.  I had a friend who named their kid that, and that kid was a nightmare....

Quote from: Role on 05, December, 2011, 08:13:58 PM
First, I nickname everyone.

Sad face.

Anywho, I'd say that 170% for the fourth class and 180% for the fifth would be more than enough. Considering that this would be a class on an already (I'm assuming) fast character, though I guess it wouldn't make much difference. 140% on a starting class, on the other hand, might.

I will take that into consideration.  I'll test it out and see how the character fares solo on a lower setting for Agility...  Because that's the main reason the Agility was spiked up, so that it wouldn't die on solo.

I have an update for everyone.  I've made a few discoveries and some decisions about the GS BYOND system that I wanted to share.  I know I haven't made an update on this thread in a while, but my life's been kinda hectic lately, so my sincerest apologies.

I have come up with 5 class builds, along with their implementation in the game.  Note that these names will apply to all elements, denoting the element of the character before or after the name of the class.  These are the base classes, before Djinn are applied.

Squire - This class has the highest attack power of any base class, making it an ideal hack and slash character.  Its defense and HP are low, however its limited healing skills allow the Squire to keep itself alive.

Guard - This class has the greatest defensive skill, along with the highest HP, making it an ideal tank.  Relying on its own physical toughness for survival, he's still a fighter and as such, can hold his own in combat.

Urchin - This class focuses on speed and stealth to survive.  While they have the highest speed, their attack, defense, PP, and HP are mid-level, mediocre at best.  The Urchin class relies on their first-strike speed to win their battles.

Novice - This healing class has relatively high PP so as to keep themselves and their party members alive.  Their stats are mid-ground, giving them survivability when in combination with their various healing and defensive Psynergies.

Mage (in the form of "(Element) User") - The highest PP of all of the base classes provides Mages with their strong offensive Psynergies, and their relatively high speed allows them to deal massive damage quickly, so as to survive in combat, because with their other stats so low, Mages can't take many hits before they're down.

Class changes according to the Djinn a player has Set will be based on their base class build rather than their element: this means that a Squire who adds a Djinni of their affiliated element (Mars with Venus, Mercury with Jupiter) will always become a Brute.

Each character will receive a number of Stat points which they can use to assign their base stats.  Once the base stats are assigned, they cannot be changed except by raising them with items.  There will be a limit to the number of times a stat can be raised so as to prevent abuse.

New psynergies will of course be added, and some classes will automatically learn some Psynergies at certain levels that, before, were obtainable only through items.  Urchins, for instance, will be able to Cloak themselves, both in and out of battle.

Also, I don't remember if I brought this up before or not, but I discovered a way to make the battle system the same as in the games, placing the battle over the map instead of in a separate window.  This will require that players see things only from behind their characters as opposed to being able to spin their battle window like in the original games, but it will nevertheless be far simpler and more visually appealing.

The game will likely have a day/night system, and possibly an in-game calendar (as in actual dates, time of day, months, years, etc.).  Beyond that, I really need some help.  I don't have enough hands to get all of this done by myself.  I may post class stats later, once I have everything worked out.

QuoteNovice - This healing class has relatively high PP so as to keep themselves and their party members alive.  Their stats are mid-ground, giving them survivability when in combination with their various healing and defensive Psynergies.

Shouldn't this be called acolyte then? Acolyte = novice cleric ....

I don't know, I think Novice sounds a little more generic, and it was a reference to the Catholic church, sorta.  Monks and Nuns who haven't taken their vows yet are Novices.

I agree with Griever, though for a different reason.  I think classes with a basis of other classes should have a name similar to them.  Otherwise, I'd feel like protesting Guard and Squire, since those are mars and venus classlines.

At the moment, it's a working title anyways.  I have no idea how many of these names will make it to the final version.  That said, part of my idea for the naming scheme actually came from Dark Dawn's naming Amiti's class "Aqua Squire".  Thus, "Earth Squire" would be how I'd denote the original "Squire" class.  "Flame Guard" would be the original Guard class, etc.

Also, I have an idea I'd like to get opinions on.  Since part of the original game involves being able to adjust djinn and change classes for each character based on the djinn you have in your party, but a lot of the MMO will involve solo play, I'm considering an idea I just came up with, allowing the character to carry more djinn than they're using.  This would allow them to change the djinn they're using to allow for different summons, classes, etc.  Instead of just the 9 djinn they're using, in this case, players would be able to carry somewhere between 14 and 18 djinn total, however only 9 could be active.  Djinn sets could only be changed outside of battle, possibly only by the help of an NPC, I'm not sure.

I am also considering having players able to name their djinn, allowing for more uniquity.  Thoughts?

Perhaps the player could have like a house or a home base: A place where the player spawns when she or he starts the game after they make their character. The home base would have various different features, like djinni and item storage, the ability to order items (item creation) and such. The player would start off with the spare room in the local pub, but can upgrade to a house and even a mansion later in the game.

That is my idea, that it is.

If you're controlling just a single character...
It's going to change the game a lot not being able to give inputs for the whole party when you team up, and some classes are worse off solo than others. Have you thought about that?

For the djinn, you'd normally trade them with other people to change class, so how about trading djinn with NPCs?

Umm, Sala already came up with the djinn bank idea.  Just use that.  People will pick djinn based on their target build, as well as what abilities they have.  You'd have to unlock "djinn slots" though, for balancing sake.  So, let's say that for every tenth level, you get another djinn slot.  That could work.

Quote from: Role on 31, January, 2012, 05:57:01 PM
Umm, Sala already came up with the djinn bank idea.  Just use that.  People will pick djinn based on their target build, as well as what abilities they have.  You'd have to unlock "djinn slots" though, for balancing sake.  So, let's say that for every tenth level, you get another djinn slot.  That could work.

Uhh, I might've missed that, I DID have to go my cousin Shohei's funeral (and then I stayed at Yuuichi's flat (Flat means apartment, to you Americans/Canadians/Whoever else says apartment) for a bit) because he was hit by a car and died, that he did.

And, to quote myself:

QuoteThe home base would have various different features, like djinni and item storage, the ability to order items (item creation) and such.

Tha means that the home base would do more than just store your djinn, you can also order items from the item creation people, and do other stuff as well.

Djinn trading was going to be involved anyways, and yes, I have already thought about how different classes will fare in solo.  The idea behind holding extra djinn is so that players can change their classes to reflect the battles they will have...  The only other thing I can think of instead is that players can trade djinn with their party members, and when the party is disbanded, they get their own djinn back.  Also, maybe not a home base, but a home town for sure.  I don't know about storing things there, though.

Edit: I have something to share.  This should clear up the questions about most of the classes.  I have uploaded an IPS file to share what the base classes for GS BYOND will be like.  Please note that these are mostly approximations as I can only do so much, but they are GOOD approximations.  So, have fun with Knight's Emblem (http://forum.goldensunhacking.net/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=35).

Alright.  I have an update on a finalized class system.  I have dropped the number of builds to 4.  And no, I didn't drop the stealth build, Role...

My next demo will feature the new class system, but I plan to outline it here for everyone.  However, I wish to note that the only multi-elemental classes that will be available will be symbiotic elements; there will be no Mars-Jupiter and things like that.  And no tri-elemental classes...  Mostly because I won't have room.

I have discovered that other than the Agility stat, Guard and Squire are mostly the same, with their ATK and DEF swapped.  This has led me to the decision that both of them will be part of the same basic class.  And now what you're all waiting for: I'll shut up and get on with it.

Fighter - This includes the Squire, Guard, Warrior, and Mariner (To Be Renamed) class series'.
Mage - This includes the Wind Seer class, and the elemental variations thereof.
Healer - This includes the Water Seer class, and the elemental variations thereof.
Sneak - This includes the Urchin class, and the elemental variations thereof.

Note that Flame User is not listed.  Flame User is none of the above, being some weird mix of Fighter and Mage, with a bit of Healer.  Because of this, the Flame User class will be in its own category, along with certain elemental variations.  These variations will have the most changes between them, as the item which bestows this class will have a unique effect for each element of Adept: each will have unique psynergies and stats provided ONLY to those classes.  In other words, 3 brand new classes with unique styles.  And don't knock the classes until you've tried them.  I will provide a link to the demo when it's ready.

Okay, so it's been a while and I'm double posting...  Again.  But since it's been over half a year, I feel justified in doing so.  So I've been unable to work on all of this for a while with very good reason, but I've recently learned a few things which have given me hope in getting restarted on this project.

So for one, turns out my problems with graphics are fixable, insofar as the following is *now* true:  I can change the default tile size in how BYOND sees icons.  This means that I can take the normally much-too-small pre-existing icons, and use them at their current size without affecting how the player sees the game.  This means all I have to do is pull apart the existing icons and let players use their favorite clothes and hairstyles, and let them choose the color of those.  So customized icons no longer require another person to create.  It requires a bit of patience is all.

Also, I've finally realized, and about time, that there are 3 characters with run icons, not just 2.  Jenna has it.  This means I'll probably take Isaac and Jenna as base icons for the two genders, and let everyone modify themselves from there.

A few wonderful realizations about the nature of BYOND code (as of my most recent explorations) reveals a way for me to make a list of classes and such so that classes are as dynamic as the original games.  And I plan on including all of the original classes and then some.  Also, I've decided on a new customization system for classes.  Instead of the idea I originally had of letting players design their own classes to an extent, players will pick an existing class for their character.  Upon level up, when a character would learn a new technique, they will be given a choice between different techniques available to that class with similar power levels.  This means that, if you prefer to play a Squire without any "stone" techniques, all you have to do is choose the techniques that match that idea.

So, I'd like to point out that, for about another month, month and a half, I'll be able to do only minimal work on this project, but I haven't quit.  And with the way this is starting to look, I think it'll be a game worth being proud of.  So I'd like to open this back up for comments and suggestions.  Also, I plan on making a "home" feature.  Players will be able to buy a home, share it with others, possibly even create NPC's (i.e. a spouse, a parent, children, etc.) to live in it, so we'll see how that goes.  Anyone got any comments?

That... quite frankly sounds pretty cool! I'd double like it if possible, so... any idea how long it would take?

Currently, not sure.  I've got a few things decided and a miniscule amount of work done for a rather large game.  Being that I'm the only contributing developer at the moment, it's a huge project.  I am, however, looking for help with it, in 3 areas.  Either A, a coding assistant, B, a pixel artist, or C, a development adviser, someone who can give me tips and advice on how to make the game better.  And if someone wants more than one of those roles, all the better.

Also, I've decided the official title, and I have started on the setting.  Golden Sun: Legend of Alchemy is the official title, GSLoA for short.

Golden Sun: Legend of Alchemy? That's a pretty good title for your game, and a good title is important, you know.

Thanks!  And I thought so, too.  So far, it's set in the period between TLA and DD, and it's going to use the map and icons from the first two games, and you'll be able to explore both the first game's map AND the second game's map in the same game.  I'm also going to do my best to incorporate psynergies from both TBS and TLA in both sections of the map.  For instance, Cloak was never useful in TLA, and I'll add puzzles in for that kind of thing.  I also plan on putting in all of the old puzzles in addition to new puzzles and locations.  I even plan on putting in the lighthouses for those who want to follow the old storyline with their own custom characters, and I plan on having an alternate storyline for everyone else.  Kinda incorporate elements of both into both storylines, though.  Oh, and high level equipment that can't be forged (AKA the Sol Blade) will be given out only by staff members for events and things like that.  Considering also putting level requirements on certain equipment...  Any thoughts on that?

How about having the original 8 heroes and other GS characters as bosses?

3 problems with that.  One, that would be a problem djinn-wise; the original 8 heroes would have a fair portion of the existing djinn and...  I don't have to say anything else about what's wrong with that.  As for other golden sun characters, most of the other strong adepts worth fighting died already.  However, if one chooses to follow the storyline, then they'll have the same boss battles.  But this is going to be a rather large game, so there'll be plenty of other things to do and other places to go.  And plenty of other djinn.  I'm probably going to create enough djinn to have somewhere between 36 and 50 djinn of each element.  If that's not enough djinn for everyone, then tough...  >.<  Also, there will be a PvP area in the colosseum in Tolbi.  And now I'm pretty much spouting out random information...  Oh, I'm putting off adding other races for the time being.  Everyone will be an adept or a regular human for the time being.  I probably will not make Proxians available for a while either.  However, there will be multiple options for hometowns of Adepts.  Vale (Which I'm going to have as being "rebuilt" for the sake of gameplay and not following the exact events of Dark Dawn), Imil, Garoh, and towns like those are on the list of options at the moment.

QuoteHowever, there will be multiple options for hometowns of Adepts.  Vale (Which I'm going to have as being "rebuilt" for the sake of gameplay and not following the exact events of Dark Dawn), Imil, Garoh, and towns like those are on the list of options at the moment.

Vale could have been rebuilt when your game takes place, but then gets destroyed again a few years before DD.

And that "original 8 heroes as bosses" thing was just an idea I was throwing out there, that's all. Just thought it'd be cool to fight them. But, they will show up, right? Can't imagine a Golden Sun game without them. Even Dark Yawn (lol) had Isaac and Garet show up in the beginning.

Well, I planned on them mostly showing up in filler and stories told to the players, but I suppose I could give them some actual cameos.

EDIT: So it turns out that this project is completely doable in the exact way I've wanted it.  However, the project is too big for one person to do in any reasonable time frame, so until I get some actual help, the release date is going to stay TBA indefinitely.  I really need another person, preferably with pixel art/graphics skills, but I can manage with just someone with the motivation to work on the game on a regular basis.  So if you really wanna see this up and running, consider helping?

Quote from: Kioll on 21, October, 2012, 11:26:01 PM
EDIT: So it turns out that this project is completely doable in the exact way I've wanted it.  However, the project is too big for one person to do in any reasonable time frame, so until I get some actual help, the release date is going to stay TBA indefinitely.  I really need another person, preferably with pixel art/graphics skills, but I can manage with just someone with the motivation to work on the game on a regular basis.  So if you really wanna see this up and running, consider helping?

Oh, I guess this thread was right under my nose the whole time.

So do you have a single design document for the "one big project?"  The ideas over the last 9 pages seem to be constantly adapting and evolving.  And do you have a key list of steps and smaller tasks that'll need to get done?

Edit:  Basically, I want to know more about
1) Exactly what you want to do,
2) Exactly how I can help.

1.  I want to make a game whose shape is not clearly defined but is getting more and more defined.
2.  The way to help is mostly in the form of making sure work gets done...  Either by pestering me into it or doing it.  Right now, I really need to start with the character creation system, and the best way to get that to happen is to get some pixel work done on building a character icon base and customizable parts.

So what are the options you want available in the character creation system?

And do you have a sample of what kind of art style you have in mind?

Stylistically, I'd like to keep with the old games.  I have the GBA sprites and such to work with, and my intention was to use them, but my biggest problem lies in creating NEW material.  Such as new psynergy, or new characters, etc.  That's why I need a pixel artist.  Some of it I can do.  Some of it...  I can't.

yeah, MMO's thrive on having lots of content, and content that's continuously changing.  You'd need people who are constantly creating literature, visual art, and who are even moderating the community.  That's a heck of a lot of work...

Actually, dude... I could be wrong, but now that I really think about it, doesn't it seem like you have no chance of doing this whatsoever? How does your fantasy project compare to MMOs like https://themanaworld.org/?

edit:  I should ask:  would it take more work, or less work?

Quite frankly, this project is a valid one.  Totally doable.  And expanding on it is easy... once I have a base to expand on.

Quote from: Kioll on 08, January, 2014, 01:48:09 PM
Quite frankly, this project is a valid one.  Totally doable.  And expanding on it is easy... once I have a base to expand on.

Yeah, building the underlying foundation is the hardest part.  And luckily you're in an era where there seem to be quite a few engines out there, ready for being adapted and modded (or "hacked," if you will).  Have you scouted any of those?  Since you know what want to sculpt, the next thing to do is to find a medium in which to sculpt.  Even getting artists comes after that.

edit:
some stuff I came across:
https://stendhalgame.org/

Came across the 'Liberated Pixel Cup' in my searches. (lpc.opengameart.org)

It seems that over time, people are likely to add more and more stuff that follow a consistent style.  Don't know if it fits the style you want, but it's a relatively cheap (free) and conervative way to go.
(i.e. http://opengameart.org/art-search-advanced?field_art_tags_tid=liberated%20pixel%20cup)

See their style guide and assets: http://lpc.opengameart.org/static/lpc-style-guide/index.html

And since I'm posting, here's a thread related to artists and how much it might cost to get some animation frames done.
http://opengameart.org/forumtopic/how-long-does-it-take-to-create-the-lpc-character-art-0

Quote from: Kioll on 06, January, 2014, 10:35:25 PM

2.  The way to help is mostly in the form of making sure work gets done...  Either by pestering me into it or doing it.  Right now, I really need to start with the character creation system, and the best way to get that to happen is to get some pixel work done on building a character icon base and customizable parts.

Edit:  And to be clear, they have character bases and I think customizable parts.

(http://lpc.opengameart.org/static/lpc-style-guide/_images/female_walkcycle.png)
(http://lpc.opengameart.org/static/lpc-style-guide/_images/hairfemale.png)
(http://lpc.opengameart.org/static/lpc-style-guide/_images/male_pants.png)

Alternately, rather than spriting, it may actually be easier to work from 3D models.  I suggested Sketch-Up Make (http://www.sketchup.com/products/sketchup-make) in the thread:  Golden sun base sprite? (http://forum.goldensunhacking.net/index.php?topic=2105.0)

I haven't tried it myself, but someone's gotta to test it.  You going to volunteer?

Sounds like someone didn't read the first post.  BYOND is the "medium" I plan to make the game in.  But in order to really get anywhere with it, I need my icons.

List of icons you need?

Is this still in the works...? If not, is there still a copy of it somewhere? Lol

It should be still active. Or at least not abandoned. :um:

Define in the works...?  This is still on the backburner.  I still need base sprite icons with interchangeable pieces....  Which I can technically do, technically, with a little thing I like to call pixel editing...  but it's not easy, and it's a LOT of work.  If I had someone to definitively help with one job or the other, (coding or iconning), I could likely pick up the other and at least get started.  But the job is daunting for a single person, and I hate working alone, which was part of the point of making this thread originally: to get people to help.
But no, it's not abandoned.  In fact, it's just waiting for the right moment...  Trust me.  One day, this WILL be a reality.  And it'll be epic.  I hope...

Sounds good is the game still being made?