This is a topic that someone requested. They wanted to know about the kinds of things you can do in the editor by putting ability effects to unintended uses.
Effect Damage: Let's start with the basics. To do this, just give an Effect Only ability a "Power" value higher than 0. This will cause the ability to deal damage whenever its effect triggers. Damage caused in this way is not affected by random damage variation, and counts as Base Damage as far as Elemental Power and Resistance are concerned.
Double Delusion: Double Delusion is when the game checks for the Delusion status effect twice against each target. This is achieved by giving an Effect Only ability the effect "May inflict Delusion on all enemies". Enemies directly targeted by the ability will be subject to two checks for delusion, the first of which has a very high rate of success. All other enemies will receive only the second check, which has a lower success rate. If you use Effect Damage, only succeeding with the first check will inflict damage.
Set Damage: A neat way to use Effect Damage with the effects "May do double the damage", "May do triple the damage", and "May multiply damage by 1, 2, or 3". Interestingly enough, these effects always count as having activated regardless of whether or not the multiplier triggers. This allows for abilities that always do the same amount of damage, barring the multiplier. Just give an Effect Only ability one of these effects and a Power value equal to the amount of damage you want it to do. Incidentally, I've just discovered that, when used by enemies, the "User Dies" effect is also always active in this fashion, allowing for exact-damage abilities.
Proportional PP Cost Healing: This is a method to make a healing spell always cost PP equal to 10% of the amount healed. Just give a Healing ability the effect "User may recover 10% of damage to PP". This will cause the user to restore negative PP amounts when they heal someone with the ability.
HP Cost Healing: This is a method to make a healing ability that costs HP when cast. Give a Healing ability the effect "User recovers 50% of damage to HP" to make the user lose HP equal to 50% of the HP recovered by the target. Actually, as far as the game is concerned, the user is recovering negative HP.
Healing Overflow: It turns out that Healing abilities actually use a signed 16-bit value for their base power. But the editor doesn't know this. So what you do is you set the ability's power to something just over 32767 (I used 33000), so that it will overflow to the most negative value possible, or at least close to it. This has an odd effect. At such extreme levels of negative healing, the game will not actually damage the target. Instead, the target's HP will be fully restored (though it still says "[character] recovered -31500 (or whatever) HP!") and, for whatever reason, so will their PP. If you were hoping to fully restore HP and PP as well as some other effect, this will free up the secondary effect slot for you!
I imagine that by utilizing this you can have HP to PP conversion moves, as well as PP transference moves. That could be quite helpful in some situations, especially since MP transference is common in RPGs for mages to have.
I might have one, but I haven't tested it yet. You know how Regenerate's effect damages the caster, right? There is probably a way to make it so it doesn't damage you if you use it - my current guess is that using the healing formula should do that, since Coatlique uses the regeneration effect too.
Quote from: Role on 25, February, 2012, 08:08:22 AM
I imagine that by utilizing this you can have HP to PP conversion moves, as well as PP transference moves. That could be quite helpful in some situations, especially since MP transference is common in RPGs for mages to have.
These are actually quite difficult to do, because you're still stuck with only 10% PP cost and 50% HP cost. Basically, any move like that you try to make will end up hopelessly overpowered if you use those effects for it. So the best you're going to get right now in regards to PP transference is still pretty much flat value.
@Sala: It's very easy to make Regenerate not damage the target. Currently, it's an Effect Only ability with a Power value of 60. Either removing the Power value or changing it Healing type will remove the damage.
By the way, how strong is Regen compared to Coatlique's effect? Or is it the same?
Regenerate uses the same ability effect as Coatlicue, and it appears to be the same power.
Also, I dunno if any of you guys thought of this, but you can make counter-attacks do something other than Added Damage +20. For example, you could make the counter-attack a PP damaging move, or make it also paralyse the target for one turn. It always targets only one enemy, however. Even setting it to target an ally, it still hits the enemy.
Darn, was hoping it was a lower powered version of it. That'd give much more things we could do with it... But at that power, you kind of have to make it be a summon to balance it. :/
Yeah, it is rather quite annoying.
Or you could, you know, take the game in a completely different direction from GS. There are some games out there where their style of combat makes effects like that not broken, while still being turn-based and using roughly the same stat set.
You mean like my Puella Magi idea?
Pretty much. I was also thinking of making a Paper Golden Sun, though. Or a version where characters fight with guns, and so PP is replaced by ammo. I was also considering a mecha-combat based version, too. All of those require completely restructuring the Djinn system, and a lot of monotonous class editing, and a lot of item and ability replacement, as well.
True, but does changing either of their power levels alter the effect at all? It makes me wonder what the point of having a power level for that effect is if changing it doesn't do anything.
You two are very fast when it comes to sending replies.
Quote from: JamietheFlameUser on 25, February, 2012, 01:40:32 PM
Pretty much. I was also thinking of making a Paper Golden Sun, though. Or a version where characters fight with guns, and so PP is replaced by ammo. I was also considering a mecha-combat based version, too. All of those require completely restructuring the Djinn system, and a lot of monotonous class editing, and a lot of item and ability replacement, as well.
A scifi RPG! I'd totally play the hell out of that! Where PP is actually AMMO, Battery Energy, and fuel for chemical weapons like flamethrowers!
FUND IT!
@Sala: Unfortunately, I don't think it does, so I really have no idea why they put a Power value there at all.
@Role: by "FUND IT!", I assume you mean get a game company to do it? Especially since nothing I can come up with would be anywhere near as good in quality. They already did one of those, too. A TBS, even, actually. You haven't played it? I don't remember the name, though.
I take it you don't understand the meaning of "Fund it". Basically, I was saying the idea is great - make it. You'll have my support.
You said you made a TBS hack like that? Is it just TBS but with different attack names or something?
Aw, then I might just have to take a look at it later to see if changing that is feasible.
Oh, and do you know if any of the "?" effects do anything neat or interesting? I remember one of these effects making text show up in battle, but I was wondering if you might have found something.
@Role: No, not TBS as in "The Broken Seal", TBS as in "Turn-Based Strategy". This is an actual game I'm talking about. Not a ROM hack.
@Sala: no, I haven't found anything relating to those effects, though I actually haven't tested them. I probably should, shouldn't I?
Honestly, I can't wait until one of you guys figures out how to customize effects. There'll be so much more we'll be able to do...
@Jamie: Ah, so it's like Alpha Centauri. I mean in an RPG, though. I've not seen an RPG that actually does it... Wild Arms may have done it, granted, but I've played it, so I can't say for certain.
It wouldn't really work yet, though, because we can't do sprite editing.
The mecha combat idea works pretty much fine without sprite editing, though, because we can sprite-swap. Which makes that, my current hack thing, and Paper Golden Sun my next projects.
The only problem I see with using the GS engine for such a game is that the GS engine is designed around 4 elements/damage types, while I can only think up three for a scifi game...
Ballistics
Energy
Chemical
That leaves a fourth slot and character... I suppose we could make it so it's a 3-person game and just axe the fourth element entirely, but... eh... seems like a waste, you know? Still, if it doesn't fit, don't use it I suppose... The trick then is that we'll have to totally change the menu interface to get rid of that fourth slot...
Ballistic
Explosive
Fire
Energy
There. That's four. And that's if you don't go into such nonsense as freeze rays or dark matter bombs or what-have-you.
Freeze Ray is chemical, since it'd use liquid nitrogen or something like that. You'd have acidic attacks and flamethrowers doing the same thing.
Ballistics has both conventional and explosive weapons, like guns and grenades.
Energy includes things like electric weapons, your stock standard sci-fi energy blasters/phasers, lightsabers, etc.
Dark Matter bombs are getting into godmode territory.
In terms of damage types:
Ballistics has: Physical, Explosive
Chemical has: Fire, Ice, Acidic
Energy has: Electric, Light, Raw Energy
If we're using the djinn system, it's best to go by the energy source - so the Ammunition for Ballistics, the Battery/amplifier etc for Energy, fuel tank for Chemical, etc. Instead of djinn, they'd be addons for your weapons. We'd have to totally ditch the using djinn and the summons, though, since they'd not make too much sense for a pure scifi setting...
True, true. But then we're left without a fourth element! Whatever shall we do?
Actually, Freeze Ray could be Energy, too, since it could drain heat energy from the target to relocate it elsewhere...
Biological? It could probably fit quite nicely with your science fiction RPG ideas.
So yeah, it might be worthwhile to point out that using different ability types (like Summon, Gaia, Eddy, etc.) with various abilities could probably change them in various ways depending on what effects they have.
Quote from: JamietheFlameUser on 25, February, 2012, 01:40:32 PM
I was also considering a mecha-combat based version, too.
A Goldensun mecha game? Now, that's a game I'd play the living crap out of, that it is.
I assume they're piloting Super Robots, right? I just can't imagine a Real Robot genre GS mecha game.
Right, that's it. Since I can't do my FF6 mod (my pc freezes when I use safe mode, and my FF6 hacking tools only work in safe mode) I'm gonna start making that, if no one else will, that I will.
The GS based FF6 game can wait.
QuoteTrue, true. But then we're left without a fourth element! Whatever shall we do?
What about Thermal? That's the only one I can think of.
Thermal tends to use Chemical or Ballistic means to trigger the thermal reactions. Biological isn't something you can do without it affecting you as well - it just won't work on a small scale combat situation. Apart from Ballistics, Energy, and Chemical, can anyone think of some kind of fuel source for tech that'd work with small scale skirmishes?
I suppose each weapon option could also come with unique abilities, but we cannot use summons - you'd have to change it so that you manually recharge the item. I really cannot see how summons would work in it.
No, not in robots. I figured it'd be on foot, with like, guns and stuff. Sticking with the scifi theme, you'd have energy field generators for armor and stuff, since you know, bullets and all kinda go through chainmail.
Everything would be an EPA, and instead of attack it'd be like Aim or something. Different weapon types also have different trends, even if they have another element due to equip options.
Classes wouldn't be classes, but rather the name of your weapon configuration. Assuming each character sticks to one weapon type, they'll also have associated tactics.
Ballistics guy would have armor piercing capabilities - most of his attacks would have defense penetrating properties, even if he uses rounds that deal energy damage. He'd have very low AP, but skills cost very little AP as well. Rarely has more than single target abilities.
Energy dood would have moderate AP, and skills would be varied based on how much they drain the battery. Can have splash damage, may cause some delusion. AoE for splash damage is typically less than Chem Guy, but doesn't diminish as bad.
Chem guy has a lot of AP, but attacks tend to take a lot too. Often has splash damage, often induces ailments (enflammed, chemical burn, frozen, etc...). Probably has the highest damage variance though, and splash damage is likely diminishing.
Sonics could work as a fourth type. Concentrated sound can do damage, and it's actually been weaponized IRL as well...
As such, if we're going from focused to spread damage, the order would be: Ballistic, Energy, Chemical, Sonic. Further left, the more damage but less targets, further right, the less damage, but more targets... or something. Alternatively, aliens.
You know, if we did a Star Wars game, we could use the Force as the fourth damage type. Just saying. :3
AP/PP would not be gained at levelup, unlike every other stat save for luck. Instead, these are native to the weapon, and modified by configuration. After all, this is ammo, and your configuration determines things like the size of your clip and what not.
Psychological would also be an option. Hypnosis, confusion, etc.
As for the ? effects, I remember I tried to use them a while back. Nothing happened, but it was just putting them on abilities and using them, not actually checking code.
...How does that work with guns, Durza?
Quote from: Role on 25, February, 2012, 01:44:47 PM
Quote from: JamietheFlameUser on 25, February, 2012, 01:40:32 PM
Pretty much. I was also thinking of making a Paper Golden Sun, though. Or a version where characters fight with guns, and so PP is replaced by ammo. I was also considering a mecha-combat based version, too. All of those require completely restructuring the Djinn system, and a lot of monotonous class editing, and a lot of item and ability replacement, as well.
A scifi RPG! I'd totally play the hell out of that! Where PP is actually AMMO, Battery Energy, and fuel for chemical weapons like flamethrowers!
FUND IT!
You seriously need to play super robot wars (super robot taisen in the states). I think it's what jamie was referring to when he mentioned the TBS RPG.
Wait... why is it Super Robot Taisen in the states, but Super Robot Wars over in japan? Wouldn't it be the other way around?
@PP=Ammo: I actually thought of a similar concept around the time I completed Resident Evil 4... Just thought no one would like/appreciate the idea...
@PP=Ammo: Why don't ye actually make a thread for this? Seems pretty reasonable idea for a hack. Also for 4th damage type why not use melee which would be affected by the strength of the characters (unlike, for obvious reasons, firearms)?
Quote from: Role on 25, February, 2012, 05:12:16 PM
Wait... why is it Super Robot Taisen in the states, but Super Robot Wars over in japan? Wouldn't it be the other way around?
Apparently, legal issues with the tv show "robot wars." So we're given an example of gratuitous japanese as a result.
That's cute. Like Bearmon and Kumamon. Bearmon in Japan, Kumamon in US... and you'd expect it to be the other way around.
@Shini: Actually, I've requested a topic split... still waiting for it.
Quote from: Role on 25, February, 2012, 04:53:29 PM
...How does that work with guns, Durza?
Flashbangs, sonic pulses, stuff like that. Also unorthodox tactics like shouting boo so your enemy misses...
...I am not going to allow one element exclusively for standard status ailments. >_>
May as well continue posting here since Kain HASN'T SPLIT THE TOPIC YET like we asked him to.
Anyway, I think a workable element system would be Ballistic, Energy, Chemical, and Mystic. Mystic is for the few non-sci-fi like abilities, things like telekinesis and suchlike. As such, most enemies are weak to Mystic (it replaces Jupiter), but Mystic is a very rare element (even the "Mystic" party member is really just a jack-of-all trades with a few Mystic abilities)
Yeah, see, that's the problem... I hate throwing mystic into sci fi. Having a sort of alien tech with an unexplainable power source does the same thing, but you keep the sci-fi thematics without going into science fantasy.
We could go with biotic implants that let the biotics user do something like telekinesis, though, that we could.
Y'know, like in Mass Effect, there's party members that have 'em, like Jacob and Jack, in 2.
Implants work more for equipment, not entire weapon types. Basically, like how KoTOR does them. I want to keep psychic powers and stuff out of this if at all possible. When you start getting into psychics, mystics, and magic, you start treading onto the realm of fantasy.
I know. I'd prefer to leave magic out of this, too. But until the editor allows us to change party members around, we need four damage types.
I suppose we could make Explosive a separate damage type from Ballistics, but that seems kind of forced.
Certain telekinetic abilities can be explained as simply a type of energy manipulation that uses an as-of-yet undiscovered particle. Through the use of a bio-technological interface, one can exert precise commands with sheer concentration and thought. The interface translates the electrical impulses in the brain into a type of stimulus that will directly affect the particles' trajectory and displacement.
Sound science fiction-y enough to you? If you define something's properties well enough, anything can be science fiction. You can justify flat-out magic with science if you try hard enough - especially if there are super-advanced ancient civilizations involved. What was merely day-to-day technology in their time (perhaps even used as a toy!) is so complex that it could only be considered powerful magic in ours, even though there may be a perfectly legitimate reason for it to work.
That's the thing, though... super powers is often the go-to science fiction thing. Psychic falls under that. I'm kinda sick of that - what if this was a world where such things were impossible thanks to the laws of physics?
If you really wanna do that, I suggest a Star Wars hack, since the Force fits that perfectly. Personally, though, I prefer a superpower-free approach - it's something I've almost never seen. Even freaking Xenogears/saga had a mystic element going in it...
Update with information on value overflow for Healing abilities. It's really weird how the game behaves when that occurs. I don't even get it.
I love this thread.
That heal overflow sounds interesting. I'll have to check if going even higher results in damaging the target or restoring small amounts of HP and PP.
Quote from: JamietheFlameUser on 17, April, 2012, 07:37:15 PM
Update with information on value overflow for Healing abilities. It's really weird how the game behaves when that occurs. I don't even get it.
I tried using heal overflow quite a while ago in hopes of getting damaging attacks using the heal formula, but in my disappointment I failed to notice the other effects you described...
Quote from: JamietheFlameUser
Healing Overflow: It turns out that Healing abilities actually use a signed 16-bit value for their base power. But the editor doesn't know this. So what you do is you set the ability's power to something just over 32767 (I used 33000), so that it will overflow to the most negative value possible, or at least close to it. This has an odd effect. At such extreme levels of negative healing, the game will not actually damage the target. Instead, the target's HP will be fully restored (though it still says "[character] recovered -31500 (or whatever) HP!") and, for whatever reason, so will their PP. If you were hoping to fully restore HP and PP as well as some other effect, this will free up the secondary effect slot for you!
HP and PP full restoration? I've seen this already, and in an even weirder way, when trying to change HP limit to over 16,383, for both enemies and PCs. I don't know for sure, but I believe the game is coded to reset HP and PP values when something... unusual happens, like healing negatives. However, this thing worked a little differently for my case. Any value over 16,383 could cause this issue. The higher the value, the more frequent the resetting happened.
But in the case of your discovery, if the problem really is the healing negatives, I think not all values over 32,767 would cause it, while some lower than that could. I say that because the healed HP depends on elemental power. So, if a character with 149 Power used a 24,000 base power healing ability your effect would still happen. But if this character had 104 Power instead, you would indeed be healing around 24,000 HP.
Edit: Yep, confirmed. So I believe there isn't a universal value you can use for this effect if you want it to always work, since elemental power may range from 76 to 200.
Yeah, I know about that. I discovered it the hard way. But what does work is to make your healing ability non-elemental, so that any value around 33000 will cause the glitch.
Ah yes, you're right. I keep forgetting things can be non-elemental...
It's a bit of a letdown, though, being limited to a single element (or the lack of one in this case). But at least it works.