Golden Sun Hacking Community

Feel free to mention any ideas you may have for a song!

#3 (Spooky) sounds more like LoZ:tMC than it does GS.

Also, keep in mind I think the track limit for GS is 4. So you can have 4 tracks simultaneously. Make good use of that. Switch it up. One thing about GS, and Motoi Sakuraba in general, is that no one track tends to stay in the foreground for the whole song. Typically, you'll get a cycle between two or three of the tracks, with one or two of them staying exclusively background. Or at least, that's what his battle themes are like.

Ah yes, very aware of the Gameboy Advance's channel limitations as well as the series' varied instrumentation methods
Decided to take a more open-ended approach to working on these pieces here for a few reasons, despite them

Besides originality & the general avoidance of boredom, which in my experience has often arisen in situations in which a certain level of achievement has been reached & exhausted by doing things in certain ways, I can imagine the tool this site provides and many others like it eventually being developed well beyond their current states, to the point where they may be hindered far less by the limitations of the console whose specifications they work under.  
Had taken that into consideration when sequencing these bad larries here, as well as the the direction of the pieces themselves, of course.
Pretty sure the 'Night' track has something like 20 or so individual reflection channels going for the bass sequence alone, each with its own individual velocity-driven panning & peak-driven pitch control settings, so staying true to channel limitations really wasn't a main concern

Really? The reason I pointed out the whole "four tracks" thing was because the songs sounded a bit empty to me.

Very interesting

Updated April, 2013

Updated June, 2013

Updated late June, early July, 2013

Updated, October 2013

The one named "Jazz" sounds pretty darn good. There are a few times, though, where the notes are clearly recognisable as individual notes even when they sound like they ought to flow together.

"Strange Waterfall" can't seem to decide whether it's supposed to sound like a peaceful lakefront, like an underwater aquarium, or like some sort of distorted, evil place.

"Urgency" sounds like a GBA Pokémon evil team base theme crossed with a Tales of...-esque techy dungeon theme.

The intro to "Pleasant Town" doesn't sound all that pleasant at all. Actually sounds pretty creepy for a few seconds there. The beat is perhaps a little too fast, the melody a little too repetitive on occasion, and the background melody a little too slow.

The different tracks in "Desert Town" seem to clash with each other, somehow. It feels a little too busy for a desert town, to be honest. Although, it still does a good job of making it sound like a "hopeless" sort of place to live.

The quiet background melody in "Night" seems slightly too quiet, while the triangle sounds a little too loud, as does that pulsing base thingy on occasion.

In "Dramatic Minigame", the flute (which, judging by the mp3 name, is the whole point of the song) seems a little too quiet.

The main track (not sure what that instrument is) in "Battle" is slightly too loud.

Thank you for your analyses, very thoughtful of you.
However, just so you know, every aspect of the pieces on exhibition here was crafted as heard for a reason. 
All essential imperfections were intentional; there are very few "errors", most being incorrect leveling issues and med-heavy mixing, which is invited, as the pieces in the collection were kept mostly dry to best represent how they would sound if played on a hand-held console (as well as complement the comparatively "looser", rockier feel of some of the more intense tracks, which I find refreshing, as many sequenced compositions written in the same medium tend to sound a little mechanical and static).  In most cases, a perfect mix isn't necessary, as the listener is too involved in the emotion and progression of the music to notice any particular inconsistencies in leveling or presentation.

I'll rework the 'Night' piece using the sound set from Dark Dawn for you though, now that you mention it.  The soft, quiet atmosphere of the original is pleasant, but I can imagine a more melodic take would fare just as well.

Updated early November, 2013

The new version of "Night" works pretty well. I like it.

"Blues" makes my left ear feel lonely.

Mountain Dungeon almost sounds like it's trying to dubstep.

Country Dungeon is really good, does its job very well. Starts off a little TOO quiet, though, especially with the way the volume seems to build throughout the song's duration.


And by the way, I'm not suggesting that they are errors, for the most part. What I am suggesting is that certain stylistic changes might make the song more pleasing to the ear, or less jarring. Especially things such as volume balance (in "Battle", "Night (GS1&2)", "Dramatic Minigame") are important, and individually recognisable separate notes (that is, of the variety that sounds like chiptune music or that makes the use of instrument samples highly obvious) are typically not desired.

It's understood.
Essentially, any pieces that sound unpleasing are intended to sound unpleasing; any differences in presentation would betray the intention of the compositions.  For many of the mentioned tracks, inconsistent leveling adds to the overall 'oddness' and strange nature of the material, it intends to throw the listener off-kilter.  The idea of the collection isn't to 'slip' the fact that the music is sequenced using instruments based on what were originally samples by the listener, (isn't exactly shocking is it - the original Golden Sun soundtracks are as well) the general idea is to demonstrate practical compositions that would fare well when played on a hand-held console.

Of course your intentions are clear, constructive criticism is always appreciated, really wasn't a particular need for an explanation. 
What I'm suggesting is that, all in all, there isn't a single comment one can make that wasn't already considered and considered again during the creation of the pieces in question.  Pieces that sound raw are meant to sound raw; many are written with the intention of leaving a listener unsettled.

What I find far more interesting is a more emotional response to a piece, in how they connect (or disconnect) with listeners.  What images do they bring to mind?  Where can you imagine the pieces being heard, where do they take you?

Can imagine analysis of that nature may end up being a little more hands-on than comments like "Mountain Dungeon almost sounds like it's trying to dubstep".

Couldn't help but quote that, forgive me.  Absolutely hilarious, love that one

Reason I say "Mountain Dungeon almost sounds like it's trying to dubstep" is because of the pulsing base that kicks in at the 50 second mark.

As for emotional responses, "Battle" at first sounds like its going for a mysterious or epic confrontation, then instead switches it for fast-paced and dangerous, with an odd sense of both creepiness (due to occasional split moments of notes that are just slightly off) and finality. Also, that sudden complete silence between sections sounds a little odd. Ah, here we are, 2:40 and the sense of mystery/celestial forces returns, after being absent from half the song.

"Strange Waterfall" seems to me like it would benefit more from mixing all the different elements (underwater aquarium, peaceful lakefront (though now that I think about it it sounds a little more like a desert oasis), distorted void) into the song at once, rather than devoting separate sections to each. Although, I could see having an intro that is missing the "distorted void" feel, then introducing it in the main loop to unsettle the player, so that they only realise that something is wrong here 30 to 45 seconds into the song. I would also suggest not leading with the "distorted void" section, depending on if you want to go for a "what is so interesting here...?" mystery feel as opposed to a "holy c***!" scare cord feel.

"Pleasant Town" sounds distopic, which is rather interesting. I think, honestly, that it starts sounding distopic too soon. Give the player awhile to take in the atmosphere before you drop that on them. Makes it hit harder.


General stylistic notes regarding Sakuraba: He frequently uses two treble instruments and two bass instruments, then over the course of the song cycles through which one he uses for the lead melody. This allows him to make 4 tracks feel like much more than that, as he can constantly introduce new lead instruments without having to change the instruments actually being used. He also commonly uses drum solos as a transition when switching the lead; if I had to guess, I'd say they're his go-to "cheap cop-out" for when he can't find a better transition to use. A good example of all of these tricks would be the Tunnel Ruins theme (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrpVApsIDAQ).

In essence, assume all pieces are final.  Focus on what you get out of the pieces as they are, as opposed to how you personally feel they could be improved.

Appreciate the suggestion, but 'stylistic notes regarding Sakuraba' are equally unnecessary, as I am very familiar with his style. 
Believe you made a similar suggestion before, as well.  Best to avoid clutter.
The idea when composing is to take the music in a direction completely new to the series, while preserving the same warm, ethereal, and strangely-mysterious qualities of the originals. 

Being such an acutely-analytic individual, you may have noticed that many of the pieces are arranged and sequenced in a manner not dissimilar to that of the classic contemporary song structure, in that they have an introduction, a series of verses, a bridge, and a chorus.  They are written and sequenced in the same manner most modern music is written; a medium that I feel jives with Golden Sun's music surprisingly well.

Isn't to say pieces written in other styles won't be sequenced of course, can do it all. 
Personally think there isn't anything cooler than hearing Golden Sun play the blues.

Updated mid-November, 2013.

Updated mid December, 2013 - Merry Christmas   :VenusDjinni: :Garet: :Ivan: :MarsDjinni:
http://f.cl.ly/items/1v350R2G253w000D3U0r/CHRISMAS_XY.mp3 (http://f.cl.ly/items/1v350R2G253w000D3U0r/CHRISMAS_XY.mp3)

Updated January, 2014

Updated February, 2014

Updated June, 2014.

Have about ten, fifteen new pieces written, demoed and ready to be reworked at the moment. Will get around to completing them soon.

If memory serves, weren't you the guy who converted the DD songs to TLA's soundfont?  Do you remember which threat that was in?

Nope, you're close though. I'm the one that extracted the instruments from Dark Dawn and compiled them into a SoundFont library. I also extracted its sequences and converted those to MIDI. Think both can be found in the 'Sound Studio' section: http://forum.goldensunhacking.net/index.php?topic=2256.0 (http://forum.goldensunhacking.net/index.php?topic=2256.0)

Not entirely certain exactly where what you're looking for could be found, can't imagine where that would be. You're looking for versions of songs from Dark Dawn that use the GBA instruments, right? I'll look around for them.

if you were to put them in DC project then they are no longer existing.

I'm aware - I've tried hunting them down, but I think that's where they wound up.  I had checked my PMs, because I know I talked to the guy about seeing if he could make a march-style remix of An Adept's Home to work for a military town, but I think I may have deleted those a few years ago.  Ah well.  Anywho, off chance you can recreate that stuff?  Get the DD songs using the TLA soundfont?  I always thought they sounded better with that one.

Really reminds me of DKL2 for some reason.

If I can make this in five minutes, http://f.cl.ly/items/3V1p1I000t2R3z0V1v2E/SESSION.mp3 (http://f.cl.ly/items/3V1p1I000t2R3z0V1v2E/SESSION.mp3)
I can do that, no problem. Do you have a soundfont file for The Lost Age using all its instruments' original settings? I've only ever seen one Golden Sun soundfont besides my own floating around online, can't say I'm a big fan of it, sounds like its creator went in and sampled everything themselves, custom loop points, static decays and releases and all that.

I'll use that soundfont collection for now, unless you have a superior one.
Here's Dark Dawn's main menu theme using the GBA sounds: http://f.cl.ly/items/0e180a403u0W0H0n021h/MAIN_THEME.mp3 (http://f.cl.ly/items/0e180a403u0W0H0n021h/MAIN_THEME.mp3)
And Kaocho: http://f.cl.ly/items/3x1k0D1D1j1N381Q0C2H/KAOCHO.mp3 (http://f.cl.ly/items/3x1k0D1D1j1N381Q0C2H/KAOCHO.mp3)

Took a few creative liberties with some of the instruments, as the original GBA games simply don't have as many instruments Dark Dawn has.
Think it's merely a matter of taste, preferring one sound set over the other. I think they're both pretty decent.

I think Daigonite does... or at least, she was one of the main ones working on music and such back in the Dimensional Crisis days.

I do not have a soundfont - when I produced the music, I directly imported it into the game. I was pretty good at that lol. The advantage is that you're using an emulation of the hardware so you get the closest sound (much closer than a soundfont) but a soundfont is easier to use.

Can't beat the real thing.
Here's a link to all the sequences from Dark Dawn. Feel free to do what you do (although some channels will undoubtedly need to be reassigned due to the ratio of instruments between the two games):

https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B6RDTwb4OndTeHhOV2plV185eGs&usp=sharing&tid=0Bz8PWXTWctXKNlpVelUySUZrNHc
(//http://)

Ah, thanks for the clarification.  Anywho, if we can get things converted to the TLA soundfont, I wouldn't mind seeing if other games done into it.  I'd love to hear Sally Beacon and Clash With the Librarian from Suikoden Tierkreis done in the TLA soundfont.

Updated October, 2014 with the 'Enter Sol Sanctum' piece.
Let me know if I should look into reworking existing Golden Sun songs like that in the future.

I like your work and have a question:
How do you make this?

Sorry for the delay, only just saw your question.
I use both hardware and software for audio production and processing. Sampling is a key factor, as well, I sample just about everything at some point for the performance aspect, including sequenced parts such as hi-hat riffs and the like. Sampling is very important because I like a nice large, layered quality to my mixes, so things like snares, bass drums, and other percussive elements will often be comprised of several individual samples from my own kit, other people's loops, synthesizers, and a variety of other sources to create unique samples.

Here's an example, layering two simple samples together to form a more interesting instrument:
http://f.cl.ly/items/0n00081L3S3a3J3b0q0x/Layering%20Demonstration.mp3 (http://f.cl.ly/items/0n00081L3S3a3J3b0q0x/Layering%20Demonstration.mp3)

Another key element is the importance of arrangement to a song, which I find often dictates the direction of the mix later on in terms of mastering decisions. Production-wise, I tend to start in with a basic song demo or a set of guide sounds that evoke a particular mood to get things moving. It's often a matter of throwing ideas at a song until a theme or concept comes together that can be focused as you go. The piece can then be presented to session musicians or vocalists once it's deemed acceptable, which is what was done for that last song I posted here, the Sol Sanctum one.

If you'd like the dry details, here's a short list of the most used software and equipment:

Synths:
ARP Odyssey
Oberheim OB8
EDP Wasp
Moog Minimoog
ARP 2600

Samplers:
EMU EMAX II
EMU Emulator II/III
AKAI S1100 (16MB)
AKAI S3000XL (32MB)

Reverbs/Delays:
Eventide SP2016
Roland Space Echo

Recording:
AKAI ADAM DR1200 12-track digital multitrack
AR100 monitors
Various Drawmer units, including DL221 compressor/limiter and DS201 dual gate
Zoom 9010
Alesis Quadraverb
Korg DVP-1 vocoder (it's more of an effects unit than a vocoder)
Yamaha SPX 90
Manley stereo 10DV limiter/compressor

Software:
Pro Tools 10
Ableton 9
FL Studio 11
Various Waves plugins

Kit:
Yamaha recording custom:
Bass drum, 57cm
Noble & Cooley snare drum, 36cm
Zildjian hi-hats, 14"/36cm
Zildjian crash ride, 22"/56cm
Zildjian China boy low, 18"/45cm
'K' splash cymbal, 8"/20cm
'K' medium thin dark crash, 18"/45cm

Drum machines:
Roland TR808, TR909, Emu Drumulator, and other various drum machines

For strings and orchestra, EastWest libraries get things done fairly well. I often merge individual samples or recorded parts from libraries in with strings sampled from other sources like classical music videos from YouTube and such for a fuller sound.

For all the music posted here, I've also made it a point to use as many samples from Golden Sun as possible. I'm not a big fan of reworking a song in a way completely and entirely removed from its original form, so using elements from existing Golden Sun music is a key element as well.

Wow I didn't expect that big of a reply. It's pretty impressive what you've got.
I mainly asked because one of my brothers is very interested in making music with the computer.

So you actually record real instruments and sample them most of the time?

QuoteHere's an example, layering two simple samples together to form a more interesting instrument:
http://f.cl.ly/items/0n00081L3S3a3J3b0q0x/Layering%20Demonstration.mp3

That is really nice.

Yep, a large part of what I do focuses on the aspect of performance, using both electronic and acoustic elements. On one hand, I might like the rigidity of a sequenced percussion part, whereas I might also like to layer in a few loops of actual kit as well for the small dynamic changes and inconsistencies, the human element:
http://f.cl.ly/items/2G2k0b2Y1X112q3A092G/Perc%20Demonstration.wav (http://f.cl.ly/items/2G2k0b2Y1X112q3A092G/Perc%20Demonstration.wav)

For that purpose, the computer can be just as much an instrument as any other 'real' instrument like a piano or a guitar. It isn't like either of those instruments just play themselves, it's the musician that sits down and gets something out of it. The computer takes away (and introduces) a bit of the learning curve involved in learning how to play an instrument well, allowing you to take a little more time to really work and develop a song far further than you could if you just had some guitars, bass, drums, and a microphone. I think it's a question of finding the right balance between the electronic aspect done on the computer end and the recorded elements that makes the difference between an interesting production and the kind of 'computer music' that people sequence and blast out on a whim in a few hours from the bedroom, which does tend to give electronic music a somewhat unfairly rough reputation.

I'd recommend he sit down with a straightforward DAW (Digital Audio Workstation) like Ableton Live or FL Studio and just play around for awhile, the sounds should come together after a few hours of playing around with the knobs. I recommend he learn his way around a simple synthesizer to learn the basic Oscillator > Filter > ADSR > LFO chain of command, which is consistent for most digital and hardware synths. FL Studio has a very straightforward 1 oscillator plugin called 'Minisynth', I think it comes with the program, (their demo version of the program is basically fully-functional) it just has an Oscillator, a (kind of quirky) filter, and a simple tempo-synced LFO. That would go a long way toward understanding the basics of a synthesizer, instead of jumping in immediately with a monster like the ARP 2600...
[spoiler](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/83/ARP_2600_panel,_Energo_2011.jpg)[/spoiler]

A lot of audio-related things like that aren't all that complicated once you've sat down and gotten a feel for it, a lot of it is just learning small basics and building up a wealth of knowledge as you go, but you can imagine it would be a little overwhelming if you jump in with something like that without knowing what does what. May as well teach someone to swim by boating them out into the middle of the Atlantic Ocean and tossing them in.

Quote from: Majora on 10, April, 2015, 03:53:30 PM
For that purpose, the computer can be just as much an instrument as any other 'real' instrument like a piano or a guitar. It isn't like either of those instruments just play themselves, it's the musician that sits down and gets something out of it. The computer takes away (and introduces) a bit of the learning curve involved in learning how to play an instrument well, allowing you to take a little more time to really work and develop a song far further than you could if you just had some guitars, bass, drums, and a microphone.

Pretty interesting.

Quote from: Majora on 10, April, 2015, 03:53:30 PM
I think it's a question of finding the right balance between the electronic aspect done on the computer end and the recorded elements that makes the difference between an interesting production and the kind of 'computer music' that people sequence and blast out on a whim in a few hours from the bedroom, which does tend to give electronic music a somewhat unfairly rough reputation.

Yeah, I see that a lot to, that some people think electronic is bad.

Quote from: Majora on 10, April, 2015, 03:53:30 PM
I'd recommend he sit down with a straightforward DAW (Digital Audio Workstation) like Ableton Live or FL Studio and just play around for awhile, the sounds should come together after a few hours of playing around with the knobs. I recommend he learn his way around a simple synthesizer to learn the basic Oscillator > Filter > ADSR > LFO chain of command, which is consistent for most digital and hardware synths. FL Studio has a very straightforward 1 oscillator plugin called 'Minisynth', I think it comes with the program, (their demo version of the program is basically fully-functional) it just has an Oscillator, a (kind of quirky) filter, and a simple tempo-synced LFO. That would go a long way toward understanding the basics of a synthesizer, instead of jumping in immediately with a monster like the ARP 2600...

He currently uses Magix music maker, which makes it pretty easy for him with all the built-in samples and stuff.
But he likes your suggestions.

I've been hearing about that program lately, it's one of the few DAWs I know next to nothing about. Its interface looks like a more colorful Pro Tools. What does it do, does it support VSTs? Does it have a mixer?

Keep up the good work Majorica, only hearing these tunes now for the first time.

Thank you, glad you like them.

Added two pieces, 'Climb The Lighthouse' and 'Ice Dungeon', May, 2015

9/23/2017: Updated with a quick piece in the style of Golden Sun and Golden Sun: The Lost Age. Wrote this piece for a short video trailer in the works for one of the Golden Sun Decor Minecraft mods.

Villain Encounter
^{https://d26dzxoao6i3hh.cloudfront.net/items/2P1I3C3N2F0S0k1y2V0d/music.wav (https://d26dzxoao6i3hh.cloudfront.net/items/2P1I3C3N2F0S0k1y2V0d/music.wav)}