For my fangame I'm making a list of Weyard lore. :idea:
If there is something missing on the list below (and is at least fannon) please post it.
History of Weyard
- Sealing of Alchemy
- The great Flood.
- The crumbling of the continent above Angara. (the continent I believe is cannon, I even have some proof)
- Lunpa founding Lunpa (city) for people from that continent.
- Babi doing bad stuff on Lemuria.
- Yepp doing great things for Yallam.
- War between Anemos and Shaman.
- Anemos city becoming the moon.
- Master Hammet becoming master of trading
- Saturos & Menardi and their group sets of a trap in Sol Sanctum
Changes after the Eruption
- Mogall forest (used to be plains)
- Increased monster activity/appearence of monsters
- Djinni's
Changes during GS1 & GS2
- Indra was pushed between Gondowan and Osenia
Changes after GS1 & GS2 and during DD
Just posting to give this some activity. If this list is complete I'll close the thread.
Lore for fangame.... I'm guessing what this is supposed to be is lore that was not experienced through the adventure?
Unfortunately, I can't think of much... and I randomly start wondering how Saturos and Menardi found their way to Vale from Prox. I don't think the two traveled alone (When looking at GS wiki.), since there's a chance many may have died. I'm not sure if Alex was there on their attempt? ; Anyway, the reasoning for their arrival in Vale may support Bullet 2 in your list, but I wasn't sure how they knew Vale was the place to go.
^^ It is true that Saturos and Menardi did not traveled alone.
All others companions died when they first entered Mt. Aleph.
So, I think Alex was not with them.
Though, that does have a lot of potential. With Satty and Menny as the Fire Adepts of the party, that frees up 6 slots for the other elements. Plus, we know that Satty and Menny were actually pretty bad with puzzles, so they're not the brains of the party, either. It'd be nice to see a game where it's about a group that's finding out why the rift is encroaching on Prox. It would culminate with a "huge reveal" to the characters that they actually need to revive alchemy to save their home, and have the epilogue showcase the disaster that met them the one time they let their guard down...
Do you think Alex and Mia were training together or something... at that time? Or was that at some other time?
Quite possible. I could see them having the same roles as Justin and Meghan in Imil (Mia's apprentices in the Sol Sanctum), given that this is three years earlier. When we look at the size Isaac and Garet were at the time, it'd make sense.
Thank you for all the replies.
Unfortunately, I wasn't planning to make the adventure of Saturos and Menardi.
It would be cool though.
But do you all agree these are the major events that took place before GS?
Yes, pretty much. But you forgot the Sealing of alchemy.
(Edit: But I would ask for a reminder on some of them. Great Flood?).
(I also wanted to say something about Kalay, but can't remember if there's anything really worth saying or not.)
Okay. (that comes before my story, but it is a very important piece of lore)
Yeah, it is important. Perhaps more important if you decide that a Proxian was involved in sealing alchemy? (Maybe that is how Proxians know how to unlock the power?) I don't know who was involved in sealing Alchemy, but this is a guess.
Quote from: Teawater(Edit: But I would ask for a reminder on some of them. Great Flood?).
What do you exactly mean with reminder?
Quote from: Luna_bladeHowever some humans clearly have strong abilities and I thought there was more behind that.
Like said in the previous post, there were originally four main races that could harness the power of the elements. A part of each of those groups, after centuries of breeding with humans, was almost no different, except for the ability of being able to use Psyenergy. Example:
The dragons bred so long with the humans until the Proxians came into existence.
Mercury clan, same deal. Etc.
Oh wait, you meant why they know it. Well they are less human than humans. Also they have very probably been living alone and keeping traditions alive and passing knowledge.
And it is very likely that a Proxian helped Sealing Alchemy.
I meant that I couldn't remember any Great Floods before GS1/GS2.
http://goldensun.wikia.com/wiki/The_great_flood
Well, that does bring back something... :)
Does it really make sense if a Proxian has sealed Alchemy ?
I think that the clans (Mercury, Mars and so on) were founded in order to protect the lighthouses from being lit, which would mean that Prox would have been founded to protect the seal, and not to destroy it, in the same way as it is for Imil. Of course, the ancient people of Anemos was, to me, the guardian of Jupiter lighthouse. But what about Venus one ?
I'm not sure, but in TBS, when you talk to the statue under the Venus lighthouse (right after Suhalla desert), it says something like "The path begins on the lands of an ancient civilisation", so perhaps the Venus clan has been destructed. Well, Vale could have been the village of Venus clan, but it would have been founded near the lighthouse in that case.
But I have a question : why is Prox threatened by the edge of the world whilst Imil is not ?
I think that allclans was going to seal alchemy some pepole wasfor it and some against it.
I will write story so give some ideas and I with your help make good story.
I don't think we said a Proxian actually did the sealing, although, it could be possible.
Quote from posts:
Me: a Proxian was
involved in sealing alchemy
Luna_blade: a Proxian
helped Sealing Alchemy.
Anyway, if one of the Guardians would live in Prox (And be the founder), I'd call them a Proxian, I think.
Edit: How do we know if these cities were founded earlier on in preparation of the sealing? What if the cities were built when the lighthouses were built? (Assuming Lighthouses take time to build, and you need to take care of yourself at a town. Ex: Inn)
QuoteBut I have a question : why is Prox threatened by the edge of the world whilst Imil is not ?
Because Prox is closer to the edge than Imil?
Venus Lighthouse / Babi Lighthose = Lalivero
Mercury Lighthouse = Imil
Mars Lighthouse - Prox
Jupiter Lighthouse = Contigo / Anemos
Edit: We could say that these cities were well-trained for guarding the lighthouses for a long time... But I'm guessing they weren't highly trained by the time GS1/GS2 hit.
You're right, but if a Proxian was involved in sealing Alchemy then it means that people at the time did not know about the risks behind it. Or that they prefered threatening the world to seeing it beeing corrupted and destructed by war, power etc.
Still, Imil is not that far from Gaia falls, but well... let's assume they don't see it.
Are you sure that Lalivero is the guardian village of Venus lighthouse ? The only adept from Lalivero is a Jupiter one... But the Laliverans may have forgotten about Psynergy. This is possible.
I wonder, did the lighthouses exist before sealing Alchemy, or were they built in order to seal it ? Stupod question I guess but I can't remember...
Quote from: Straffy on 27, April, 2014, 10:27:40 AM
1)Are you sure that Lalivero is the guardian village of Venus lighthouse ? The only adept from Lalivero is a Jupiter one... But the Laliverans may have forgotten about Psynergy. This is possible.
2)I wonder, did the lighthouses exist before sealing Alchemy, or were they built in order to seal it ? Stupod question I guess but I can't remember...
1)It may be... As far as I know, there were only 3 Water Adepts in Imil by the time the events from Golden Sun 1 took place. My argument is that, otherwise, they wouldn't need Mia to heal them when the cold did strike.
2) Yep, built with the power of Alchemy. It is said in the game. Your question is a little strange, though. If they were built to "seal it", the HAD to be created before the sealing... :sad:
Also keep in mind that even though we only saw one Jovian in Lalivero doesn't mean that's the only one that exists there. We just didn't meet the others, or if we did they didn't showcase it. You don't have to limit yourself to what was in the games - Ayuthay is proof enough of that. It existed within the Lamakan desert, and you didn't even bother to visit it in GS1 because of that (too busy trying to not die by desert heat).
This is not the place to discuss that.
Also Sheba comes from Anemos in the fannon (thrown of the moon, then protected by passive psynergy).
This is implied to be comfirmed by Ivan's sister.
Well, the lighthouses could have been built to keep the balance between elements. To me, they look more like sources of power than like seals of it... But, if it is said in the game, then you must be right.
Wow, just realised, I must look like a guy who questions everything... sorry for that, I'm just trying to understand the history. Btw, thank you for answering ^^
Quote from: Straffy on 28, April, 2014, 01:30:30 PM
Well, the lighthouses could have been built to keep the balance between elements. To me, they look more like sources of power than like seals of it... But, if it is said in the game, then you must be right.
Wow, just realised, I must look like a guy who questions everything... sorry for that, I'm just trying to understand the history. Btw, thank you for answering ^^
Think about something: they were built very far from each other, and, to enter them, you have to be an adept AND solve A LOT of puzzles. What's the logical reason behind this? To make sure all the beacons stay unlit unless a group o adepts (at least one of each kind) are very determined (an urgent reason) to lit them.
They are only a source of power once lit. Just remember the dialogues at both Lighthouses.
Right. Thanks for your help, got it now :)
Quote from: KyleRunner on 28, April, 2014, 02:04:55 PM
Quote from: Straffy on 28, April, 2014, 01:30:30 PM
Well, the lighthouses could have been built to keep the balance between elements. To me, they look more like sources of power than like seals of it... But, if it is said in the game, then you must be right.
Wow, just realised, I must look like a guy who questions everything... sorry for that, I'm just trying to understand the history. Btw, thank you for answering ^^
Think about something: they were built very far from each other, and, to enter them, you have to be an adept AND solve A LOT of puzzles. What's the logical reason behind this? To make sure all the beacons stay unlit unless a group o adepts (at least one of each kind) are very determined (an urgent reason) to lit them.
They are only a source of power once lit. Just remember the dialogues at both Lighthouses.
If you want the light houses to remain unlit, then why not destroy them, or at least make it mechanically impossible to light them?
The answer is that they were
switches, meant to be able to be turned on or off when a select few (adepts) decided to do so. Their design suggests (1) adaptive management, in that the houses would be lit and unlit as needed, and (2) control by committee, where the decision to light them was in the hands of more than one individual, assuming that an individual could only be an adept of one element.
'Aadaptive management' is an engineering term you should look up if you're not already familiar with it. It's prevalent in situations where there is no stable 'steady state,' and that seems to describe Weyard perfectly.
If you want the light houses to remain unlit, then why not destroy them, or at least make it mechanically impossible to light them?
The answer is that they were switches, meant to be able to be turned on or off when a select few (adepts) decided to do so. Their design suggests (1) adaptive management, in that the houses would be lit and unlit as needed, and (2) control by committee, where the decision to light them was in the hands of more than one individual, assuming that an individual could only be an adept of one element.
'Aadaptive management' is an engineering term you should look up if you're not already familiar with it. It's prevalent in situations where there is no stable 'steady state,' and that seems to describe Weyard perfectly.
[/quote]
Hmm... I'm not sure I can agree with you, mylady... You mean that they can be turned on and off? Turning them of would result in...? Sealing Alchemy again? I don't agree.
No one knows for sure how the Alchemy was sealed.
Could such an almighty event like Golden Sun be turned off just by turning a beacon off? I wonder...
Remember: the Alchemy was natural in Weyard. That's why sealing it caused the world to enter in collapse.
They wouldn't want it to be unlit - that'd bring about the end of the world. Those whom sealed away alchemy very likely knew that. Instead, they had a two-fold solution. First, make it so that not just anyone, and not just any adept could traverse the lighthouses. Requiring adepts prevents laymen form entering and getting killed, and those puzzles keeps people like Saturos and Menardi, whom didn't exactly have the most valiant of methods regardless of their motives, from using it to do what Alex ultimately did - gain power. The second one? The Wise One. The Wise One would push things into motion if necessary, and guide and test things as they went along, even would subvert the actions of anyone who was power hungry.
Quote from: KyleRunner on 29, April, 2014, 07:14:50 PM
Remember: the Alchemy was natural in Weyard. That's why sealing it caused the world to enter in collapse.
And unsealing it caused psiEnergy vortexes to start popping up, and caused the world to enter into chaos?
-- I hope the reason so many of you dislike DarkDawn has nothing to do with the fact that it upset some of your pet fan theories. That just wouldn't be cool.
Psychic
Energy
Psynergy. Psy Vortexes have two theories, both of which are great ones:
First, the Golden Sun wasn't balanced - Isaac has part of Mars within him! Because of that, the world is unbalanced, and the vortexes are trying to re-absorb that missing energy. The vortexes and Mourning Moon fill that hole temporarily, but the only way to really get it to stop is for Isaac to give up the power of mars residing within him - possibly even having to sacrifice himself to save Weyard.
Second, Flip Side Theory, where the two sides of weyards have basically a pressure difference because only one side's golden sun is lit. The other side doesn't have vortexes, but violent Psynergy Storms, where all that energy sucked away here is unleashed upon a corresponding point in the Flip Side.
Hmm... What's the consensus on how and why Weyard came into existence in the first place?
There really isn't one, sadly. Nothing in the series is said of any kind of pantheon or creation myths.
Is it reasonable to say that it was created and sustained using alchemy, which is why it began to fall apart when alchemy was sealed?
Weyard can't have been creative with alchemy, because that implies that people were already there. Alchemy is more of the life blood of the planet, so it's more akin to FF7 and the use of Mako energy for materia. Without the "lifestream" of weyard, it begins to wither and die. With it restored, it begins to recover.
Quote from: Rolina on 29, April, 2014, 08:40:43 PM
There really isn't one, sadly. Nothing in the series is said of any kind of pantheon or creation myths.
I have a theory.
I think that the light and dark elements are not conected to psynergy directly. They are linked to Alchemy! (I have to work this point more, but it makes sense, since we did not see any light/dark psyenergy when Alchemy was sealed).
I think that the "non-void" (all that exists) is created by the disruptive waves caused by the interaction between those two elements.
Sorry if someone else said the exactly same thing before.
I see Weyard as an artificial escape pod meant to escape whatever fate befell those below.
OR it's Olympus.
Quote from: KyleRunner on 29, April, 2014, 10:59:48 PM
Quote from: Rolina on 29, April, 2014, 08:40:43 PM
There really isn't one, sadly. Nothing in the series is said of any kind of pantheon or creation myths.
I have a theory.
I think that the light and dark elements are not conected to psynergy directly. They are linked to Alchemy! (I have to work this point more, but it makes sense, since we did not see any light/dark psyenergy when Alchemy was sealed).
I think that the "non-void" (all that exists) is created by the disruptive waves caused by the interaction between those two elements.
Sorry if someone else said the exactly same thing before.
...Psynergy is the practical application of Alchemy.
It's like how Technology is the practical application of Science.
And how Magic is the practical application of Mysticism.
I still think it's Olympus. And mortals basically got stuck up there.
Alternately, given the name "Weyard" (as Passaj), it seems like a way point between places. I like the idea of there being other shards or floating plateaus like Weyard.
[/quote]
...Psynergy is the practical application of Alchemy.
It's like how Technology is the practical application of Science.
And how Magic is the practical application of Mysticism.
[/quote]
Well, I don't agree...
Alchemy was sealed! So, how could Psynergy still be used? It is a simple logic matter...
Psynergy is focusing the -mind- and using its power to change the world around.
Alchemy is a much greater power.
So Alchemy and Psynergy are different? I thought they were pretty much the same on general terms...
(Let me make a random comparison (Might be illogical, but..?): Alchemy is the spirit of Weyard, and Psynergy is the mind power of people.)
I'm going to guess and say that the SEAL on alchemy isn't the same as the DEATH of alchemy. Perhaps it's the "endless generated resources" that's sealed...
(Weyard is dying, but never completely died... if Alchemy died completely, would Weyard still be there?)
Anyway, when thinking of the psy-seal effect keeping you from using psynergy... It's not like you don't have psynergy, but you just can't use it... Hmmm!
---
Psynergy = Battery
Alchemy = Charger
What do you think? (And once alchemy is sealed, the "charger" loses it's source (unplugged), and then it drains slowly... but look at it as a giant charger that is able to consume a lot of power perhaps as big as the sun.)
After the unplug, fortunately for us, everyone's batteries are maxed. Over time, this drains too, but the people can still recharge themselves a little bit with the remaining power supply from the unplugged charger until it's gone.
Quote from: Thunder-squall on 30, April, 2014, 02:32:51 AM
I still think it's Olympus. And mortals basically got stuck up there.
Alternately, given the name "Weyard" (as Passaj), it seems like a way point between places. I like the idea of there being other shards or floating plateaus like Weyard.
Pretty sure the name Weyard is a reference to some mythos. It's not exclusive to GS (I think Valkyrie Profile uses it? Not to sure on that, though).
Quote from: Teawater on 30, April, 2014, 07:56:00 AM
So Alchemy and Psynergy are different? I thought they were pretty much the same on general terms...
(Let me make a random comparison (Might be illogical, but..?): Alchemy is the spirit of Weyard, and Psynergy is the mind power of people.)
I'm going to guess and say that the SEAL on alchemy isn't the same as the DEATH of alchemy. Perhaps it's the "endless generated resources" that's sealed...
(Weyard is dying, but never completely died... if Alchemy died completely, would Weyard still be there?)
Anyway, when thinking of the psy-seal effect keeping you from using psynergy... It's not like you don't have psynergy, but you just can't use it... Hmmm!
---
Psynergy = Battery
Alchemy = Charger
What do you think? (And once alchemy is sealed, the "charger" loses it's source (unplugged), and then it drains slowly... but look at it as a giant charger that is able to consume a lot of power perhaps as big as the sun.)
After the unplug, fortunately for us, everyone's batteries are maxed. Over time, this drains too, but the people can still recharge themselves a little bit with the remaining power supply from the unplugged charger until it's gone.
Well... we do not have much lore about it, so someone has to -start- to create a logical explanation...
Let's put my theory to test:
1) Dying but not dead Weyard: as I said in the other post, I think that all that exists came from the interactions between light and darkness, which are related to Alchemy. So, everything that is created, is created. Period. That would explain why matter still exists. But sealing the Alchemy means that nothing gets renewed.
My questions here are: how releasing Alchemy could stop the world from falling into the falls? Releasing Alchemy will result in merging the continents again? If so, Alchemy is responsible for this bond.
2) Charging/recharging: well... everything is created by Alchemy, including Psynergy. But there is a difference between the elemental psynergies and the "alchemy energies (technically they are not PSYnergies, unless used by someone)" (responsible for creation). How could I explain this... Light and darkness interactions created earth, water, wind and fire. These are the "blocks" for creating matter. So, for example, wood is created by all these elements (15% fire, 40% earth...). Nothing is created by a single element, except, maybe, the purified essence inside the elemental stars.
The psynergy used by Adepts don't come directly from Alchemy (inderectly, yes, just like everything that it's not void), but from the psynergy stones that are a particular matter (but just created by the same means as wood) capable of imbuing people with the power of psynergy. They are already created. That's why - in my humble theory - Adepts still can use Psynergy despite Alchemy already being sealed.
Can't find much historical references for weyard, but alternate spellings sort of work.
Also, can we talk about something somewhat important to the setting?
We need to go out of our way to never call Light and Dark "elements" ever when referring to the GS series. It's minor, I know, but it's a fun little mental trick - when you start referring to them as the Fundaments (you know, because that's what they are), you stop thinking of them as though they're the same as the four elements (you know, because they're not). A lot of the things making me go O.o and "the hell did they get that from?" seem to stem from. GS does not treat Light and Dark as though they're elements - its not like Final Fantasy or Dragon Quest or any of the other fantasy games out there. It's a related, parallel force.
Let's look at it this way - the four elements are like the visual spectrum. They make like, colors and stuff. But the fundaments are more like sounds. They're still a form of entertainment, and they work REALLY great with the visual stuffs, but they're not the same thing, and they're handled differently.
Quote from: KyleRunner on 30, April, 2014, 10:00:42 AM
Well... we do not have much lore about it, so someone has to -start- to create a logical explanation...
Let's put my theory to test:
1) Dying but not dead Weyard: as I said in the other post, I think that all that exists came from the interactions between light and darkness, which are related to Alchemy. So, everything that is created, is created. Period. That would explain why matter still exists. But sealing the Alchemy means that nothing gets renewed.
My questions here are: how releasing Alchemy could stop the world from falling into the falls? Releasing Alchemy will result in merging the continents again? If so, Alchemy is responsible for this bond.
"Constant creation" is perhaps the only way to explain how water keeps flowing off of Weyard, and how its land area can actually grow or resist erosion from the water. And thus we need a theory in which constant-creation can be explained by Alchemy.
I use an alchemy well to explain the water.
Vegetation and root systems could explain the growing land mass and its stability.
Quote from: KyleRunner on 30, April, 2014, 10:00:42 AM
2) Charging/recharging: well... everything is created by Alchemy, including Psynergy. But there is a difference between the elemental psynergies and the "alchemy energies (technically they are not PSYnergies, unless used by someone)" (responsible for creation). How could I explain this... Light and darkness interactions created earth, water, wind and fire. These are the "blocks" for creating matter. So, for example, wood is created by all these elements (15% fire, 40% earth...). Nothing is created by a single element, except, maybe, the purified essence inside the elemental stars.
The psynergy used by Adepts don't come directly from Alchemy (inderectly, yes, just like everything that it's not void), but from the psynergy stones that are a particular matter (but just created by the same means as wood) capable of imbuing people with the power of psynergy. They are already created. That's why - in my humble theory - Adepts still can use Psynergy despite Alchemy already being sealed.
I think psy energy is when people communicate spiritually or mentally with the elements, share a mind space, and then take an action (while sharing a mind with the elements)
Alchemy is the automated and mechanized version of this. This is why alchemy engines can run non stop, and why they pose so much risk for causing disharmony among the elements.
The natural elements, anyway. My hypothesis is that all of Weyard is unnatural, and exists only through the use and abuse of alchemy.
Constant Creation is one way, the other is part of Flip Side Theory. I personally believe it's a bit of both - there's no way some water isn't lost over Gaia Falls, even if it's dragged back into the middle. I think sources like Aqua Rock are largely responsible for that creation.
Quote from: Thunder-squall on 29, April, 2014, 06:22:47 PM
If you want the light houses to remain unlit, then why not destroy them, or at least make it mechanically impossible to light them?
The answer is that they were switches, meant to be able to be turned on or off when a select few (adepts) decided to do so. Their design suggests (1) adaptive management, in that the houses would be lit and unlit as needed, and (2) control by committee, where the decision to light them was in the hands of more than one individual, assuming that an individual could only be an adept of one element.
'Aadaptive management' is an engineering term you should look up if you're not already familiar with it. It's prevalent in situations where there is no stable 'steady state,' and that seems to describe Weyard perfectly.
Well that is a good description. I can totally agree with it.
Quote from: Rolina
Second, Flip Side Theory, where the two sides of weyards have basically a pressure difference because only one side's golden sun is lit. The other side doesn't have vortexes, but violent Psynergy Storms, where all that energy sucked away here is unleashed upon a corresponding point in the Flip Side.
Well my theory isn't fully finished but it looks like your Flip Side theory. I think the other side of Weyard or the surface of the planet beneath Weyard, holds four other lighthouse that form a Silver Moon.
The Silver Moon is what eventually sorta causes the Vortexes.
Otherwise they could be something external completely.
Quote from: RolinaWeyard can't have been creative with alchemy, because that implies that people were already there. Alchemy is more of the life blood of the planet, so it's more akin to FF7 and the use of Mako energy for materia. Without the "lifestream" of weyard, it begins to wither and die. With it restored, it begins to recover.
That seems logical.
Quote from: RolinaThere really isn't one, sadly. Nothing in the series is said of any kind of pantheon or creation myths.
There are some fanfics however.
Quote from: KyleRunnerI have a theory.
I think that the light and dark elements are not conected to psynergy directly. They are linked to Alchemy! (I have to work this point more, but it makes sense, since we did not see any light/dark psyenergy when Alchemy was sealed).
I think that the "non-void" (all that exists) is created by the disruptive waves caused by the interaction between those two elements.
Sorry if someone else said the exactly same thing before.
I thank you for the feedback, but this is not the place to post this. Try this topic:http://forum.goldensunhacking.net/index.php?topic=2394.0 (http://forum.goldensunhacking.net/index.php?topic=2394.0)
Eh, leave it. Just use this topic for everything.
Quote from: TeawaterSo Alchemy and Psynergy are different? I thought they were pretty much the same on general terms...
(Let me make a random comparison (Might be illogical, but..?): Alchemy is the spirit of Weyard, and Psynergy is the mind power of people.) (quote shortened)
Yeah I think they are different. (check URL above for theories)
The battery charger comparison is a good one.
Quote from: KyleRunnerMy questions here are: how releasing Alchemy could stop the world from falling into the falls? Releasing Alchemy will result in merging the continents again? If so, Alchemy is responsible for this bond.
Well Alchemy might just provide a lot of the "blocks". I'm not exactly sure how this works now you mention it.
Quote from: KyleRunner
2) Charging/recharging: well... everything is created by Alchemy, including Psynergy. (quote shortened)
I think the blocks are just the way we and the people of weyard see it. If the elements are part of Alchemy then it is just a way to see it. Example: We could also divide Alchemy in Sol(earth+fire) an Luna(water+wind). See were I'm going with this?
Quote from: Thunder-squallI think psy energy is when people communicate spiritually or mentally with the elements, share a mind space, and then take an action (while sharing a mind with the elements)
Alchemy is the automated and mechanized version of this. This is why alchemy engines can run non stop, and why they pose so much risk for causing disharmony among the elements.
The natural elements, anyway. My hypothesis is that all of Weyard is unnatural, and exists only through the use and abuse of alchemy.
Sharing minds? Hmm, the longer I think about it the more sense it makes.
Unnatural? You mean like how life (organisms) IRL earth is also sort of strange and unnatural?
People have been talking about psychic powers for a long, long time. IF the idea of psyenergy in Golden Sun is remotely descendent from them, then I think Carl Jung is a good source. He talks about 'psychic chronicity,' where human thoughts have happened to coincide with real world phenomenon. People have then gone on to theorize on mystical reasons for why this may be the case, and the common idea is that people who express these 'psychic' abilities are basically sharing mind space with the things they seem to be causing or predicting. Basically, they're talking or empathizing with the natural forces, and occasionally asking the forces to behave in ways the forces normally would not behave in.
A related question would be: What would increase the psychic abilities of people, such they would be able to influence the elements? Eastern philosophy and religion are filled with people who have attained god like powers through practice and devotion, and attaining god like powers isn't quite so hard or virtuous as attaining wisdom, or finding a way of life that makes the world better. In Weyard's past, we see the evidence of god like powers, but not god like wisdom. Therefore it would stand to reason that the ancients actively sought out to increase their psychic abilities (as well as their technological abilities/alchemy), and the way to do that seems to be through utilizing the 5th Japanese Element, the void.
If the 'void' is just another word for soul-space (which is the mental-medium through which psychics use their power), then that reminds of something which reminds me of 'dark psyenergy.' Simply, all humans mind have the part of themselves that they can understand, and the part of themselves that they can only feel, and cannot always control. When using the Tao as a psychological metaphor, this is the part of the 'Ying yang' that is associated with darkness.
I can imagine a world where the ancients further experimented with new ways to use psyenergy, and ended up bringing Darkness into the Light (where it shouldn't be), creating creatures of darkness that could not survive the light, but which found ways to persist anyway. This fits with what Chalis purportedly said about fearing the light. If I were telling the story, I would feature the umbral clan either as victims, or as scientists who wanted to explore the limits of existence. I would not have them be a power-equivalent to the whatever the forces of sol were.
Then again... I guess I've got too many possibilities on my mind right now, such that I cannot focus on a single one. That's not a bad thing.
Quote from: Thunder-SquallPeople have been talking about psychic powers for a long, long time. IF the idea of psyenergy in Golden Sun is remotely descendent from them, then I think Carl Jung is a good source. He talks about 'psychic chronicity,' where human thoughts have happened to coincide with real world phenomenon. People have then gone on to theorize on mystical reasons for why this may be the case, and the common idea is that people who express these 'psychic' abilities are basically sharing mind space with the things they seem to be causing or predicting. Basically, they're talking or empathizing with the natural forces, and occasionally asking the forces to behave in ways the forces normally would not behave in.
Well this could be the thing that happen in the GS series. But what is used to share the mind with the forces? PP? Then the question is what is PP? This is interesting stuff since I never really thought about it.
Void? Corruption perhaps? That was something fannon in some Final Fantasy games.
And yeah a bit of "With power comes responibility"? You can be a strong adept, but without the wisdom on how to use your psynergy (and I mean goals, not the magic itself) you're not much or dangerous.
UNRELATED: what about non-adept not being able to see Psynergy???
In my theory that would either mean it's plain ol' invisible OR Psynergy is not a part of Alchemy.
Or the elements do not come from Alchemy...
Pretty sure it's just an analogue for magic in this world - it's not Psionics as most sci-fi peeps would know it. At least, that's how it's used. In fact, in the original japanese, it's not even Psynergy - it's just Energy, and those who can use it are called Energists. What I don't know is whether the psychic aspect was a localization quirk, or if it was in the original.
Quote from: Thunder-SquallPeople have been talking about psychic powers for a long, long time. IF the idea of psyenergy in Golden Sun is remotely descendent from them, then I think Carl Jung is a good source. He talks about 'psychic chronicity,' where human thoughts have happened to coincide with real world phenomenon. People have then gone on to theorize on mystical reasons for why this may be the case, and the common idea is that people who express these 'psychic' abilities are basically sharing mind space with the things they seem to be causing or predicting. Basically, they're talking or empathizing with the natural forces, and occasionally asking the forces to behave in ways the forces normally would not behave in.
Wait a second here. In GS1 master Nyunpa and Master Feh tell the party Psynergy is actually Ki!
No, they said Ki is another name for it. Ki refers to mental manipulation, while Chi seems to be physical manipulation. You see similar themes in other Japanese media. Negima comes to mind in particular. Even then, in the original Japanese they called it something else iirc, and Chi was actually called Kung Fu.
Quote from: Rolina on 07, May, 2014, 06:57:28 PM
Chi was actually called Kung Fu.
lol.
Anyway, I think psynergy is supposed to be a type of psychic power, different from actual magic. There seems to be actual supernatural phenomena, while psynergy isn't considered supernatural by characters who are familiar with it. But the games are pretty ambiguous on this, what with all the psynergy abilities modeled to act like magical spells, class names like "Magician", "Wizard", etc...
A looot has been posted on this thread and making a response to everything would probably end up in a bloated post that would derive into rambling but I just want to point a couple things: Dark/Light "elements" and the sealing of Alchemy.
1) I agree with Rolina, Light and Dark aren't elements, Camelot introduced these aspects in weird ways with DD that don't really fit Alchemy and the creation/change of matter within the 4 primordial elements, although I rather like they were trying to explain them in that they were aspects that transcended the four base elements and Adepts in the far past wanted to use them to attain God-like powers (though at the same time, it is the creation of the Stone of Sages in the first series what granted one god-like powers)
Not to mention that DD seems to hint that Luna is associated with Dark but what we know about the moon is that 1) the Anemos folk went on to live in there and that it's exposure to certain Jupiter Adepts (those under the influence of Air's Rock) causes their beast-like powers to manifest.
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2) And as for Alchemy, Kraden explains it many times, it's the force/powers/energy/mako/whatever that drives the four elements to build matter and psyenergy is the practical way to manipulate it by using alchemy to make a plant grow or make things explode or make water go through its 3 states and so on.
The whole sealing of alchemy doesn't means psyenergy stops in all of the world, what it did was seal the power that would allow one to create the Stone of Sages, this means you shut off the flow of alchemy into this world by sealing the jupiter, venus, mercury and mars beacons (which in the past they may have not existed as beacons or lighthouses, the lighthouse structures seem to function like water taps).
Alchemy as the life-force in this world has little to do with the psyenergy vortexes, the game hints strongly that they come from machines made by the zenith (a machine being started can be heard when those vortexes activate), someone stated somewhere in this thread that it is kind of like the lifestream/mako of FF7 and I agree it is a very close parallel. Materia is solidified Mako like how Psyenergy stones is solidified psyenergy.