And what would dark psi-energy be?
Since there's no one stopping me, I'm going to make a bunch of things up. I think dark-adepts can use portals to teleport through both space AND time, and also merge their matter with other matter, ie. to combine into a chaos chimera.
This is sort of a quantum theory idea, where under harsh light, there is but one reality, but without light (when there is no cosmic "observer"), reality may skip and skew as it pleases. So things that would be well defined (space, time, matter) are no longer well defined.
This also applies to identity. When using dark psi-energy (I spell it that way because I can, and because I'm used to saying psionics), people lose sense of their identity, and this may also have the effect of losing sense of their sanity.
Psychic
Energy
Psynergy.
As for what I believe Dark Adepts to be... Well, I hope you like reading.
The Aspect System, Part 1 - Fundaments (http://fulminouswitch.tumblr.com/post/64759978837/gss-the-aspect-system-part-1)
The Aspect System, Part 2 - Aspects (http://fulminouswitch.tumblr.com/post/64763262978/gss-the-aspect-system-part-2)
The Aspect System, Part 3 - Alignments (http://fulminouswitch.tumblr.com/post/65097652245/gss-the-aspect-system-part-3)
Though parts of it may make mentions about not being Golden Sun exactly, everything is taken straight from Golden Sun save the alignment system (part 3). The alignment system is my own thing. To me, a Dark Adept is someone who is either of the Dusk, Nadir, or Eclipse affinities. You cannot literally wield darkness, though. Haures and Charon are Venus elemental, and all of the Chaos Chimera's "dark abilities" were elemental in nature.
I do like how you prefer Psionics, but look at it this way. Kung Fu is still Kung Fu, but it's a style of Martial Arts. Psynergy is still Psynergy, but it's a style of Psionics.
as it turns out, I hate reading. Sing me a song or something. Or at least post a two sentence wrap up.
QuoteTo me, a Dark Adept is someone who is either of the Dusk, Nadir, or Eclipse affinities. You cannot literally wield darkness, though. Haures and Charon are Venus elemental, and all of the Chaos Chimera's "dark abilities" were elemental in nature.
ok, so you've got an affinity system, which I presume is because the world is composed of those components, and different people resonate differently with those components...
If that's the case, is it something you brought up in "why do Adepts exist?" Seems like the perfect place for it.
(reading now, and hating every second of it)
(neat web design though, I can see why you'd want to show it off)
You're speaking to the High Mistress of Text Walls. Reading is simply a part of interacting with me, I'm afraid. Adepts exist because they do - the same reason magicians exist in worlds of high fantasy, and scientists in worlds of science and technology. There really doesn't need to be a reason for them to exist - if nothing else, you can say it's a natural part of existence in this world. Because, well... it kind of is in Weyard.
Light and Dark adepts, however, even with Dark Dawn have nearly zero support to their existence. Blados and Chalis never once use a dark spell on you, and their Dark Barrier seems to follow the rules of using equipment as an item (zero PP cost, multiple uses). Every instance of dark manipulation can be attributed to machines, bethey big or small. All dark-themed attacks the Chaos Chimera use are associated with an element, as are Haures and Charon, the dark summons.
Light just has some nameless kid who says he can use light in the epilogue, but even then that just makes him a strong candidate for a Celestial Energy user, considering the heavy Jovian influence that seems to be going on in Belinsk and other places with werewolves. Furthermore, we have examples of three different elements using light to attack - Venus vis Crystallux, a Crystal Aspect summon. Mars through Iris, a Flame aspect summon. And Jupiter through, like, every other Jupiter unleash. No, seriously. Light Surge, Void Beam, etc. The only one that doesn't have an in-game example is Mercury, but simple Light Refraction can allow it to pull that off too.
Simply put, Light and Darkness have always been done through the four elements, and do not have an associated stat or djinn. As such, one could easily argue that the Fundaments can't be used like the elements, but rather give shape to the elements instead. That is why I came up with Aspect Theory - that there is a Light, Pure, and Dark form for all four elements.
Frustrating? Hell yes, it's frustrating. Even people like me who'd have preferred light and dark to never even show up in GS would have preferred it if they went ahead and gave them full element treatment, but they didn't do that. They just... said they exist, and didn't expand on it or explain it at all.
Alright, so I guess there's
> The Grave Eclipse (which interferes with energy from "sol")
> The Mourning Moon (a giant psy energy votex)
> The Apollo Lense (which channels the light energy from... the sun? or "sol?")
> The Golden Sun (an abundance of psy energy)
The parallels seem neat enough. Dark Monsters spawn in the shadow of the Grave Eclipse, except near the presence of alchemy engines, such as the Well in Ayuthay, the Forge in Passaj, and the Lights in Harapa (activated by the Well and the Forge). What's curious then is why dark monsters don't always appear in dark places. Underground, for instance, or Tanglewood forest after dark (the starting dungeon in Dark Dawn). It stands to reason that creatures that are found in those dark places are already evolutions of what the dark creatures of the grave eclipse may have turned into.
At least that's my working theory until I fact check some more. But if true, we can identify dark powers by looking at all the monsters one would fight underground.
Also, this implies some things about Weyard, that
1. The presence of evil energy is the default state, and is actively countered by sol.
2. Alchemy is a light that can withstand the darkness, similar to sol.
3. The absence of light energy (and the default presence of dark energy) causes creatures to involve in one way.
4. The presence of light energy causes evolution in another way.
Also,
5. It supports Luna Blades (?) fan fics of evil creatures being found underground.
6. It supports my fan fic that whatever's under Weyard is a dark, dark place. (I'm talking about the entire planet here)
Sorry, my previous post was in response to this tidbit from your blog
Quote
Before Dark Dawn, Light and Darkness were symbolic and nothing else. Sol seems to symbolize Alchemy, and Luna seemed to almost symbolize the Absence Of or Seal Upon Alchemy. Dark Dawn threw all that out the window by making them actual things.
Basically, I see no reason why Dark Dawn changed the fundamental presence/absence of alchemy concept. I think my previous post argues that it boils down to "sol" vs. "absence of sol"
Because dark energy is already everywhere, and already pervades much of the planet. It seems to me that the story of Golden Sun is a story of a world that's lost to darkness, with Weyard being one of the last (if not the only) bastions of humanity left, kept alive by an artificial harnessing of celestial energy.
Dark and Light are neither good nor evil. Both have the potential to help and hender the party, and do in DD. Darkness is needed to be protected from the intense light of the Apollo Sanctum, but also encouraged rapid evolution in monsters. Light kept monsters at a weaker level of power, but also was very dangerous to the party in the Apollo Sanctum.
It's the behavior and presentation of light and dark that interests me, though - after analyzing it, I came to the conclusion that Light is a force of Order, while Darkness was a force of Chaos, as I outlined in the first part of my theory/system. All of those things were deduced from observations in DD - until Camelot themselves say otherwise, I'll have hard time seeing it any other way.
Also, I don't know how much of GS you have played, but I pray it's not just DD. GS has a habit of using shades of gray - nothing is truely good or evil. The main villains of the first game? Trying to save the world. And you killed them. You monster. Golden Sun very much enjoys doing that - setting something up to look one way, but in reality it may be quite different. Look at Babi, for instance. In TBS, he was portrayed in a good light as a likable man. You had to sit and think about it to realize the guy's a freaking dictator. Later on, in the Lost Age, you start to find out how bad he really is.
If you've got a force that is for sure evil, I highly recommend it not be a Golden Sun story, as I guarantee you even B&C had very good reasons for wanting to attack their own country with the Apollo Cannon - perhaps to open a rebellion against an oppressive emperor, for instance. To fight for the freedom of their people. We still don't know Alex's motives, but something tells me he knows something's coming, and all this questing for power is to try and be able to oppose it, ala Magus from Chrono Trigger.
@Reply: No, before they were mere symbols. They didn't have a literal form, they were just purely symbolic. DD made them substantial - made them an actual part of the world, rather than symbols. It's the difference between using the Bible as a symbol for faith, and using the Bible as a book. One is a symbol. The other is a thing.
But the relationship between the symbols haven't changed. Darkness is still the absence or counter of alchemy, and Light is still the presence of alchemy. Literally, AND symbolically. It seems that Dark Dawn has *added* to the lore in a way that makes sense, without changing what was once known.
That the alchemy engines keep away the Grave Eclipse monsters shows that alchemy is a force similar to sol, and so the light energy we see in Dark Dawn isn't something we hadn't already seen before through the Golden Sun event. This challenges your previous assertion that they're different. And if they're not different, then doesn't that solve all problems?
Quote from: Rolina on 30, April, 2014, 12:22:26 AM
Also, I don't know how much of GS you have played, but I pray it's not just DD.
It's totally just DD. But I'm familiar with the 'gray area' theme of the series, and the stuff you mentioned.
Quote
If you've got a force that is for sure evil, I highly recommend it not be a Golden Sun story, as I guarantee you even B&C had very good reasons for wanting to attack their own country with the Apollo Cannon - perhaps to open a rebellion against an oppressive emperor, for instance. To fight for the freedom of their people. We still don't know Alex's motives, but something tells me he knows something's coming, and all this questing for power is to try and be able to oppose it, ala Magus from Chrono Trigger.
See, here you've gone from talking about a force of energy (like light or dark), to talking about people. Which is nice, but irrelevant to the conversation, no? I don't disagree with anything you've said, and you are not longer talking about any of the things I've said. I agree that Dark and Light are neither good nor evil.
But mankind cannot live in the darkness, just as it could not brave the light of the sol sanctum. These are not moral claims, just factual statements.
Quote
It seems to me that the story of Golden Sun is a story of a world that's lost to darkness, with Weyard being one of the last (if not the only) bastions of humanity left, kept alive by an artificial harnessing of celestial energy.
^ See? I didn't use the word good nor evil once.
And I didn't say there wasn't a cost to harnessing celestial power... I thought that was implied, given all we already know about the series.
1: ...Um, no. No it's not. It's far from that. It took alchemy for both Dark and Light in Dark Dawn, and both are a part of alchemy in their own way. They are not symbolic at all anymore.
2: Well, that certainly explains a lot. Okay, stop now and play the first two. Before you do anything else.
3: I'm making a point about Good and Evil in the GS series after your mention of "Evil Energy"
4: Still pretty sure you referenced Evil Energy having a default state, referring to darkness.
Quote from: Rolina on 30, April, 2014, 08:52:18 AM
1: ...Um, no. No it's not. It's far from that. It took alchemy for both Dark and Light in Dark Dawn, and both are a part of alchemy in their own way. They are not symbolic at all anymore.
2: Well, that certainly explains a lot. Okay, stop now and play the first two. Before you do anything else.
3: I'm making a point about Good and Evil in the GS series after your mention of "Evil Energy"
4: Still pretty sure you referenced Evil Energy having a default state, referring to darkness.
1. The only potentially new kind of alchemy was from Luna Tower, and it's debatable as to whether it radiated out a different kind of energy, a barrier to sol energy, or a filter for sol energy.
2. Nope.
3. Ctrl + F. Search for when I mentioned 'evil energy'
4. Yes, I did reference that darkness was the default state, which, as an aside, is not uncommon in the world's mythologies, and neither do most of those mythologies describe the unnatural as evil.
Question: are there any issues with the entry on
http://goldensunwiki.net/Grave_Eclipse
?
It seems that Luna Tower limits sol, but I'm not sure if the dark energy output is a side effect of how Luna Tower works, or if it's just the absence of sol. If it's the former, then Dark Energy exists precisely to absorb and store light, as sort of pseudo (but not infinite) vortexes. But then isn't it still basically the absence of psy energy?
We have another point of data on light and dark energy, and that is how it feels to people. Dark energy
feels like evil energy, whereas light energy seems to make people feel good. Is this basically the DnD thing of channeling positive and negative energy? Whereas as the other stuff is just arcane?
We have skeleton warriors, don't we?
Argh, I know this is too simple, but I gotta go. Later. Feel free to disagree. It's just a step in the conversation, and even I don't agree with it. But we gotta walk the walk.
We normally try to avoid doing this kind of thing, but the last several posts I've made have been based on the following:
Quote from: Thunder-squall on 30, April, 2014, 12:11:58 AM
Alright, so I guess there's
> The Grave Eclipse (which interferes with energy from "sol")
> The Mourning Moon (a giant psy energy votex)
> The Apollo Lense (which channels the light energy from... the sun? or "sol?")
> The Golden Sun (an abundance of psy energy)
The parallels seem neat enough. Dark Monsters spawn in the shadow of the Grave Eclipse, except near the presence of alchemy engines, such as the Well in Ayuthay, the Forge in Passaj, and the Lights in Harapa (activated by the Well and the Forge). What's curious then is why dark monsters don't always appear in dark places. Underground, for instance, or Tanglewood forest after dark (the starting dungeon in Dark Dawn). It stands to reason that creatures that are found in those dark places are already evolutions of what the dark creatures of the grave eclipse may have turned into.
At least that's my working theory until I fact check some more. But if true, we can identify dark powers by looking at all the monsters one would fight underground.
Also, this implies some things about Weyard, that
1. The presence of evil energy is the default state, and is actively countered by sol.
2. Alchemy is a light that can withstand the darkness, similar to sol.
3. The absence of light energy (and the default presence of dark energy) causes creatures to involve in one way.
4. The presence of light energy causes evolution in another way.
Also,
5. It supports Luna Blades (?) fan fics of evil creatures being found underground.
6. It supports my fan fic that whatever's under Weyard is a dark, dark place. (I'm talking about the entire planet here)
Let's be more focused here. One color at a time.
Red: At no point in the game were the psynergy vortexes implied to be the same as darkness. In fact, one can argue that the Mourning Moon and the Grave Eclipse are fundamentally different events. Their behaviors do not match up - one drains alchemy from a large area. The other empowers creatures due to the rapid absorption of light by the Eclipse Tower. One weakens, another strengthens. My argument is that both Darkness and Light would be opposing forces to the Psy Vortexes, if we look at them on a functional level.
Orange: First, stop spelling it that way. Psionics is the super-category. Below that are things like Telekinetics, Psychokenetics, and Psynergetics. It's a type of Psionic casting, there's no reason to do that. It's like saying you want to call it Karartial Arts because you think Karate just isn't up to snuff compared to the Martial Arts supercategory that it's filed under. Also because you're driving my OCD up a wall. Second, the Golden Sun every much NOT Sol/Light. It is raw elemental energy, and light and darkness were very clearly said to be NOT ELEMENTS - the fundaments are separate, but similar in nature according to Kraden in Belinsk. This means that by it's very nature, the Golden Sun, the pure essence of the four elements coalesced into a single event, cannot be light by Dark Dawn's own lore. Play the first two games to get a better understanding - don't just say no to them. You need to play them to have a solid understanding of the series.
Yellow is hard to read, so Green: Oh, I can clear that one up. It's the difference between Darkness and Shadow. Darkness in the traditional sense is the absence of light, while shadow is simply light being blocked. An argument could also be made that darkness (lowercase d, or shadow) in and of itself isn't what grants that hyper-evolution to monsters, but rather fundamental Darkness (capital D, or Luna) is. Monsters are stronger at night/in caves because of a similar function to how Mars would have greater power in a hot desert, or water would be stronger in a frozen tundra. However, dark monsters in and of themselves wouldn't be found because they'd need a literal infusion of darkness for that spurt in evolution - something that the Grave Eclipse provided.
Blue:Quote3. Ctrl + F. Search for when I mentioned 'evil energy'
Quote1. The presence of evil energy is the default state, and is actively countered by sol.
There you go. You're equating darkness with evil. This may have been a Freudian Slip of sorts and not what you meant to type, but it gives a lot of insight as to how you're approaching darkness itself. Thus why I made that check against associating anything with good or evil.
Purple: Mind if I ask you something? How did the monsters in the Apollo Sanctum (the only place we have with strong light energies) evolve?
Also, would like to point out that Golden Sun most certainly does not work like D&D. Radiant and Necrotic damage do not exist, nor does Anarchic or Axiomatic. Instead, they are associated with the elements. Crystallux, Iris, and various Jupiter Unleashes look like Radiant Damage, but are of the arcane elements. Sonic/Thunder is instead associated with various of the arcane elements. Psionic damage doesn't exist, because it's arcane elemental. Poison damage is again, arcane elemental. Notice the pattern here? All character classes? Arcane casters. Yup - there's only the arcane in this world.
Quote
Red: At no point in the game were the psynergy vortexes implied to be the same as darkness.
And neither do I, which is why they are separate bullets.
Many on your points are interesting, but overall you seem to be in the habit of misinterpreting people so that you can have the satisfaction and believing they're wrong (and that you corrected them). And I can see how this will become increasingly irritating as time goes on, and I'm going to disengage from the conversation.
...You are way off from what I'm like. While yes, I do have trouble understanding certain points of view at times, I don't think this is one of them, and I don't get any "satisfaction from proving you wrong". Your presentation of your points groups them together in certain ways, thus giving out implications of related features. Had you not spaced them separately from the "light" things it wouldn't have been much of anything, and running away from the debate and namecalling isn't going to convince anyone one way or another. The way you present light and dark seems to heavily imply that light is the good force and darkness is the evil force, even if you don't mean to write it that way. I think your comparison to D&D's Radiant and Necrotic damage types (4e versions of Positive and Negative energy) are proof of that - they're fundamentally differnt styles of energy than the, er, fundaments in GS.
Quote from: Thunder-squall on 30, April, 2014, 12:11:58 AM
> The Grave Eclipse (which interferes with energy from "sol")
> The Mourning Moon (a giant psy energy votex)
> The Apollo Lense (which channels the light energy from... the sun? or "sol?")
> The Golden Sun (an abundance of psy energy)
Grave Moon and Apollo Lens> The Grave Eclipse: Which interferes with
energy from "sol"> The Apollo Lenses: Which channels the light
energy from "sol"Mourning Moon and Golden Sun> The Mourning Moon: A giant
psy energy votex
> The Golden Sun: An abundance of
psy energyQuote from: Thunder-squall on 30, April, 2014, 12:11:58 AM
At least that's my working theory until I fact check some more. But if true, we can identify dark powers by looking at all the monsters one would fight underground.
Also, this implies some things about Weyard, that
1. The presence of evil energy is the default state, and is actively countered by sol.
2. Alchemy is a light that can withstand the darkness, similar to sol.
3. The absence of light energy (and the default presence of dark energy) causes creatures to involve in one way.
4. The presence of light energy causes evolution in another way.
Also,
5. It supports Luna Blades (?) fan fics of evil creatures being found underground.
6. It supports my fan fic that whatever's under Weyard is a dark, dark place. (I'm talking about the entire planet here)
This was not a Freudian slip, but me following a working theory, and exploring the ideas that come with them. Your portrayal of my ideas are... disingenuous, to say the least.
If you're not listening to what I'm saying, and then lying about what I'm saying, what could I possibly gain from conversation with you?
You also have to keep in mind that you have not explained this working theory to me, so anything I say that may seem disingenuous to you comes from a state of ignorance from me. I cannot even know if I'm betraying something if I'm not even aware of its existence. Before you start referencing a theory, you need to either post a link to said theory or explain it in full, otherwise I have no context in your meaning.
Here, we speak of light and darkness, and nowhere except there was evil energy referenced. My assumption that you referred to darkness as evil energy came from that because that's what we were talking about. It's why I always reference Flip Side theory and link it if able when I start discussing stuff about that, so that you know where the context is coming from. Otherwise, any references I make to the "other side" simply seem confusing and out of place, or worse, as wholly disruptive to my own points.
Before we go any further, can I hear this idea in full so that I know what it is your referencing, so as to give a more educated analysis?
Quote from: Rolina on 02, May, 2014, 07:10:56 PM
You also have to keep in mind that you have not explained this working theory to me, so anything I say that may seem disingenuous to you comes from a state of ignorance from me. I cannot even know if I'm betraying something if I'm not even aware of its existence. Before you start referencing a theory, you need to either post a link to said theory or explain it in full, otherwise I have no context in your meaning.
Here, we speak of light and darkness, and nowhere except there was evil energy referenced. My assumption that you referred to darkness as evil energy came from that because that's what we were talking about. It's why I always reference Flip Side theory and link it if able when I start discussing stuff about that, so that you know where the context is coming from. Otherwise, any references I make to the "other side" simply seem confusing and out of place, or worse, as wholly disruptive to my own points.
Before we go any further, can I hear this idea in full so that I know what it is your referencing, so as to give a more educated analysis?
I think that's pretty weak. I discussed my working theory right before the part where I said "At least that's my working theory."
And if you're claiming ignorance, then you're saying you started attacking and arguing before you knew what was even talked about? As if on auto-pilot? Yes, of course you did.
When people engage in conversation, they should come out knowing more. Not less. This is the difference between discussion and debate.
But "when in Rome," right? I'll get you your debate.
Quote from: Rolina on 29, April, 2014, 11:06:50 PM
Psychic
Energy
Psynergy.
As for what I believe Dark Adepts to be... Well, I hope you like reading.
The Aspect System, Part 1 - Fundaments (http://fulminouswitch.tumblr.com/post/64759978837/gss-the-aspect-system-part-1)
The Aspect System, Part 2 - Aspects (http://fulminouswitch.tumblr.com/post/64763262978/gss-the-aspect-system-part-2)
The Aspect System, Part 3 - Alignments (http://fulminouswitch.tumblr.com/post/65097652245/gss-the-aspect-system-part-3)
Though parts of it may make mentions about not being Golden Sun exactly, everything is taken straight from Golden Sun save the alignment system (part 3). The alignment system is my own thing. To me, a Dark Adept is someone who is either of the Dusk, Nadir, or Eclipse affinities. You cannot literally wield darkness, though. Haures and Charon are Venus elemental, and all of the Chaos Chimera's "dark abilities" were elemental in nature.
Well thought out and sound theory that explains how some Adepts of the same Element have different forms of Psynergy such as Jenna being able to heal with Mars while Garret is only able to destroy. It doesn't necessarily rule out the existence of Adepts who can manipulate the fundaments with Psynergy in a similar vein as the traditional elements though. Another caveat I must add is the presumption that metal has no elemental affinity. Going by classical alchemical theory, all matter is composed of at least one of the four elements. Metal is no exception and given one of the Venus Djinn is called Steel, the logical conclusion is that metal is primarily an Aspect of Venus. Other more complex entities, i.e. living organisms, are composed of a combination of the four elements, possibly in accordance to proportion and structure. Alchemy is the movement of elements leading to the change in the structure and distribution of a material body. Case and point: by shifting out Mars and rearranging the proportion and shape of Venus and Mercury, a living human body can be transmuted into a tree.
Thus interaction between the elements and the fundaments would probably be a bit more complex than a 4x3 chart.
Quote from: Red Dingo on 02, August, 2014, 04:20:32 PM
Well thought out and sound theory that explains how some Adepts of the same Element have different forms of Psynergy such as Jenna being able to heal with Mars while Garret is only able to destroy. It doesn't necessarily rule out the existence of Adepts who can manipulate the fundaments with Psynergy in a similar vein as the traditional elements though. Another caveat I must add is the presumption that metal has no elemental affinity. Going by classical alchemical theory, all matter is composed of at least one of the four elements. Metal is no exception and given one of the Venus Djinn is called Steel, the logical conclusion is that metal is primarily an Aspect of Venus. Other more complex entities, i.e. living organisms, are composed of a combination of the four elements, possibly in accordance to proportion and structure. Alchemy is the movement of elements leading to the change in the structure and distribution of a material body. Case and point: by shifting out Mars and rearranging the proportion and shape of Venus and Mercury, a living human body can be transmuted into a tree.
I can quiet agree to this. That's probably how it works. I wonder then if the persons 'actual' psynergy effect is affected by genetics...
Welcome to the forums BTW!
Quote from: Red Dingo on 02, August, 2014, 04:20:32 PM
Thus interaction between the elements and the fundaments would probably be a bit more complex than a 4x3 chart.
I agree. BUT it is alot of work, and really unnecessary when you get the concept from the 4x3 chart.
@Dingo: Actually, aspect theory has nothing to do with destruction and healing, and only handles the form the elements take and what ailments they can use (ex: Lightning spells shouldn't inflict poison, but wind spells could totally do it). Healing is completely independant of aspect - Garet could be able to do it, but it's not how he's built. What you're looking for is class role. Garet is a Defender, while Jenna is a Jack of Trades. These roles are what lend them those skills. After all, all Garet has to do is change classes to heal - aspect ain't got nothing to do with it.
Also, healing and recovery are handled differently. Healing and Damage are considered Creation and Destruction, and are associated with the "Pure aspects". Because the pure aspects just plain earth, wind, water, and fire, they also apply to all other aspects as well. As such, both damage and healing are available to all adepts, no matter what, as long as the class can use it. Recovery, on the other hand, would be spells like Cure Poison, Break, Drain, and Revive. These are associated with Sol, but are actually available to all adepts. Even I could use revival if my secondary was Supporter (it's not - I'm a Striker/Controller). Only ailments are affected by fundament, and that's just because they're aspect locked.
Class and psynergy is more tied to the adept as a person. If you look at Team Isaac's classes, their spells actually fit their personalities. Isaac is a bit of a Lawful Good Paladin-y type, and his class is basically an offensive take on the paladin, healing and revival and all. Garet's slow witted but loyal to a fault. He works well as a defender, though he needs a counter-type spell to really take advantage of that. Mia's profession in and of itself is that of a healer, and she does show that she cares about others. Her supporter style class shows that. Ivan's arguably the most tactical of the group, as he comes up with quite a few ideas. His nice selection of supports showcases this.
Basically, your element is determined by two things - genetics and location. Your race is determined strictly by genetics. Your fundament could be any number of things, it's not really tied to anything. And your spells? Apart from the basics, which we all must learn, your spells are all up to you. How you think they're best done. After all, you're the one who trained them and learned them. You're the one who built yourself up. You aren't a Squire because your father was, you're a squire because you wanted to be one. You have a ton of freedom with your class - it's basically a reflection of you.
@Metal: Metal is stone that is forged by fire, cooled by water, and tested by air. It is a non-elemental aspect (because non-elemental spells should be a thing too). Raw light and Raw darkness are also non-elemental, with the Solar and Lunar affinities respectively (because duh). Also, the steel djinn is a pun. You're "stealing" the enemy's HP. It doesn't actually have any steel in the animation - hell, it's a freaking KISS in Dark Dawn.
Adepts that lean toward the dark side of the psynergy scale.
Dark psynergy; "Shadow Shield" is probably the only known dark psynergy ability used in the game. ("Punish" could possibly be one.) The appearance and effect of shadow shield suggest that it is dark influenced psynergy instead of a completely new type of psynergy. This also suggest that dark adepts are simply dark influenced adepts, though the method they used to obtain their imbalance is unknown. It could be similar to the method used by the pioneer light adepts from Dark Dawn.
Problem there is that it's actually not psynergy. It costs Blados and Chalise nothing to cast, implying that it's actually an item ability. None of their attacks cost anything, for that matter, and as a result there's a strong part of the fandom that believes they're not adepts at all. I mean, you'd think that if they were, they'd at least fight like it.
0) Sorry for bumping this, but I couldn't resist!
1) I love your Theory about Sol/Luna alignments within each element. I'm not completely sold on your categorisation, but I definitely can see the macroscopic picture fitting within the golden sun universe. (For instance, Venus is pretty strongly associated with life and death and that seems somewhat difficult to bring into your current breakdown. Similarly, poison and acid seem pretty similar at a heuristic level but are aligned with venus/mars respectively and even combined in Haures so I'm a little dubious of acid being a large part of mars. And along those lines Crystalux being a justification for crystaline structures when thats a Venus/Merc summon again seems like a bit of a stretch (although there's a good argument for many rigid structures within Venus to be incorporated somehow within this - eg. crystals, metal, stone and so on)). ANYWAY.. I disgress. Point is, it's a really clever way to view the light/dark "psynergy" thing and I hope its canon!
2) On dark "psynergy" like shadow shield. One could make an argument that Dark Psynergy works off of the absence of psynergy. A kind of anti-psynergy if you will. There's a pretty good case for that;
- Psy grenades could be seen as the dark psynergy version of a crystal powder or bramble seed
- Dark psynergy seems strongly tied to the vortexes, which sap adepts of PP
- "dark psynergy" doesn't cost any PP to cast (or falls outside of the "known" psynergy)
Poison is actually associated with multiple elements - Venus is just the most common. As such, I've come to believe that ailments should be more associated with aspects than with elements, and that there's no reason that they couldn't be associated with multiple elements either.
Poison, for example, would be associated with Plant, Caustic, Wind, and Water aspects, for example. Each element is represented, and there's a relatively easy logical argument for each of those forms. However, claiming that poison is associated with Stone, Explosives, Lightning, or Steam isn't really going to go very far.
Acid/Corrosives are mars mainly because that's what the games said they were. Acid Bath, Acid Bite, etc - any ability that has acidic themes to it is given the Mars element. Mars and Jupiter's third aspect were actually the easiest to pin down because both of them have solid support within the games. Crystal was harder to do - no real examples can be found outside of a djinn until Dark Dawn, where Crystallux pretty much locks it down. Mercury has like, no precedent period - I just went with the third state of water.
As for Poison and Acid being similar... I'm honestly not sure where people come from with that claim - I've never really understood it myself. Things get really confusing when you're in the pokemon fandom, too - the acid move being ineffective on Steel types? I call BS. That'd be super effective for sure. So... yeah, my mental thought processes are just kind of "...that's not how that works", so I really don't get it. One way to explain my point is that poisons can come in many forms, but the most common is through enzymes (which is arguably why Venus is the most common source). Acid/Caustic things are strictly chemical reactions, however - the way they inflict harm is also quite different. Acid has much more in common with fire than it does with poisons in how it affects flesh, too.
I've never been a fan of Haures, Charon, or Iris' elemental choice. They've always come across as summons that should have been tetra-elemental to me. After all, all elements have themes of light and dark within them - it'd only make sense that light/dark themed summons would use a bit of each.
2) The problem with this is that Dark Dawn itself contradicts this theory. If that's how alchemy works, then the Grave Eclipse should have caused life to start dying off, rather than to cause it to evolve rapidly. In addition, while I would have whole heartedly agreed with you as to how Dark works pre-dark dawn, DD pretty much disproved the whole Symbol Theory in favor of introducing the almighty vagueness that is "Fundaments". Honestly, Dark Dawn didn't know what the hell it was doing with either light or dark - on one hand, it supported the fan theory of darkness being anti-psynergy, while on the other it has that dark=chaos thing going on, which is directly counter to that.
As for the Vortexes... I'm not certain there were any strong ties or even hints towards its relation. I'm going to lean towards Flip Side Theory on this one, and say that the vortexes are caused by an Imbalance of Pressure between the two sides of Weyard.
I'm somewhat ashamed that after posting I went away to read up on every psynergy for each element in an effort to better understand things. First things first, the mixing of elements to create psynergy is pretty much impossible as currently set out by the games - growth being Venus, Venus+Mars, Venus+Jupiter and Venus+Mercury makes that difficult to account for within the theory. Secondly, I'm hesitant to read too much into summons are evidence because that's where the essence of two elements is combined (or 1 if you're talking about the basic summons). Lastly, to me it looks like Mercury/Venus and Mars/Jupiter are related to each other in structure, hopefully you can see that from these lists.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So, from what I gathered the elements have the following themes:
Venus:
- Life and plants; growth, thorn, revive, punji trap, etc. (you could make an argument for cure here, given the strength of venus's cure)
- Death and the demonic; assassinate, condemn, thorny grave, poisons, curses, etc.
- Manipulation of Earth; Spire, Quake, Gaia etc.
- Swords; Ragnarok, Helm Splitter, Sabre Dance, Weapons Grace, etc.
- Dragons; because Himi -_-;
Mercury:
- Healing; Ply, Wish, (you could argue fairies belong here as well) (healing is strongly associated with Merc, as opposed to other elements which also have heals, as Merc has the strongest heals available)
- Being Healthy/Restorative Effects; Cure Poison, Restore, Break, etc.
- Manipulation of water as a medium; Douse, Cutting edge etc.
- Manipulation of the state of water; Prism, Frost, Ice, Parch etc.
Mars:
- Manipulation of Flame; Flare, Fire, Blaze, Fume, etc.
- Ability to cause tremendous amounts of heat; Volcano, Lava, Beam, Heat Wave, Arid Heat etc. (or to manipulate existing heat sources, such as planetary)
- Explosions; Blast, Starbust, Fire bomb, Burst, etc.
- Associated with Defense manipulation
Jupiter
- Manipulation of Wind: Whirlwind, Slash, Gale, Fresh Breeze (to some extent), etc.
- Manipulation of Lightning: Plasma, Ray, Thunder Mine, etc.
- Movement: Halt, Speed Punch, Death Leap, Quick Strike, Teleport etc.
- Attack and Resistance manipulation
- Manipulation of the Mind: Sleep, Drain, Mind read etc.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Reading through this you can kind of see that Venus/Mercury are set up to be opposites (or complements?) of each other as are Mars/Jupiter. Venus gives life or takes it away while Mercury gives a healthy life given you are living. Venus adepts are generally offensive (see their association with swords) while Mercury are defensive or peaceful. Jupiter can enhance attack while Mars enhance defense. Jupiter can manipulate the mind signalling a heightened mental capacity, while mars adepts are generally portrayed as lower down on the IQ spectrum! You can also ratify this with the other elemental associations -- Venus/Jupiter are both 'attacking' elements are so are mutually weak to each other, similar for Mars/Mercury being 'defensive' elements (purely from psynergy, of course). Mars/Venus and Jupiter/Mercury being symbiotic could also be seen in this with the right interpretation.
What I haven't been able to do is bring this inline with the fundamentals theory, but I'll keep thinking about it because it should be possible.
QuoteReading through this you can kind of see that Venus/Mercury are set up to be opposites (or complements?)
I dunno what to say...
Well, given how Class Types work, and the in-game story with Mercury Lighthouse weakening Saturos, but Venus Lighthouse strengthening him due to Mars/Venus being aligned together... then... this is the way I have thought of it.
Complements/aligned elements:
Sol/naturally hot: Venus + Mars
Luna/naturally cold: Jupiter + Mercury
Opposites:
Offensive: Venus + Jupiter
Defensive: Mars + Mercury
No idea:
Venus + Mercury
Mars + Jupiter
And the hot to cold order thing...
Mars, Venus, Jupiter, Mercury
Sols on left, Lunas on right. Jupiter with the cool winds as hinted in Contigo... and needing to rush to Mars Lighthouse to warm things up... Mercury has ice-like psynergy. (Frost, and you need a hotter element to get Douse.)
I mean purely from a "how does their psynergy manipulate stuff" point of view for Venus-Merc Mars-Jupiter.
Okay. You seemed to not know if they were complements or opposites, so I was just giving my take. (Probably both?)
Would be nice to know what to call them in a general view not limited to the psynergy itself, I guess. - Irregular comparisons? Umm...
Oh I'm very well aware of the elements interaction between themselves (I even mentioned that in the last paragraph). Venus-Mercury and Mars-Jupiter has always bugged me though. Looking at how the psynergies are designed for each element somewhat makes that connections clearer - Venus/Mercury and Mars/Jupiter take different aspects of the same themes and together create a complete spectrum within that theme. Venus/Mars and Mercury/Jupiter are complementary (from this point of view) in the sense that between those elements there is little to no overlap between the themes their psynergies cover. While Venus/Jupiter and Mercury/Mars have overlapping themes AND aspects within those themes, suggesting they're competing or in tension. Looking at this p[synergy list from this perspective gives you complete relationship between the elements and agrees with the games canon of symbiotic and opposing elements.
QuoteReading through this you can kind of see that Venus/Mercury are set up to be opposites (or complements?) of each other as are Mars/Jupiter.
Maybe I shouldn't be staring at that question-mark.... Because that's what I was going by. :/
Hmm, although, this may not be the same thing, this almost makes me think of lines in a 3D environment: Parallel, Perpendicular, and Skewed.
Quote from: Plexa on 23, January, 2015, 12:39:43 AM
Lastly, to me it looks like Mercury/Venus and Mars/Jupiter are related to each other in structure, hopefully you can see that from these lists. (...)
That's basically conforming what I thought about the elements.
Useable link:http://goldensun.wikia.com/wiki/Alchemy (http://goldensun.wikia.com/wiki/Alchemy)
Quote from: Fox
No idea:
Venus + Mercury
Mars + Jupiter
Never thought about that.
Although TLA features a few summons that use this combination of elements.
I guess :VenusStar: + :MercuryStar: = healing of some sort?
Quote from: Luna_blade on 26, April, 2014, 03:07:44 PM
:VenusStar: Matter
:MercuryStar: Body
:MarsStar: Force
:JupiterStar: Mind
This is what I think the elements represent in one aspect.
Also, aren't we going a bit off-topic with all these element theories?
Gonna have to break this down due to all the posts between it - not meaning to try and play counters here, so... Yeah...
Quote from: Plexa on 23, January, 2015, 12:39:43 AM
I'm somewhat ashamed that after posting I went away to read up on every psynergy for each element in an effort to better understand things. First things first, the mixing of elements to create psynergy is pretty much impossible as currently set out by the games - growth being Venus, Venus+Mars, Venus+Jupiter and Venus+Mercury makes that difficult to account for within the theory. Secondly, I'm hesitant to read too much into summons are evidence because that's where the essence of two elements is combined (or 1 if you're talking about the basic summons). Lastly, to me it looks like Mercury/Venus and Mars/Jupiter are related to each other in structure, hopefully you can see that from these lists.
I've always seen summons as [Damage Source] + [Effect] - For example, Megaera does Mars Damage, while the Jupiter fuels the party buff. That's how I make sense of it, at least. GS in and of itself does not have support for the
actual mixing of elements, as that's a complicated mess of mechanics that nobody wants to deal with. ^-^;
QuoteSo, from what I gathered the elements have the following themes:
Venus:
- Life and plants; growth, thorn, revive, punji trap, etc. (you could make an argument for cure here, given the strength of venus's cure)
- Death and the demonic; assassinate, condemn, thorny grave, poisons, curses, etc.
- Manipulation of Earth; Spire, Quake, Gaia etc.
- Swords; Ragnarok, Helm Splitter, Sabre Dance, Weapons Grace, etc.
- Dragons; because Himi -_-;
Part of the aspect theory states that Buffs, Debuffs, and Healing are all aspect-neutral. They may lean towards one fundament or another, but they're not tied to any particular aspect. The only thing affected by the fundaments are the form the element takes when it does damage, and what ailments are associated with it. As I've mentioned before, ailments must make sense for the aspect, so things like saying stone inflicting poison doesn't work, but having plants inflict it does.
Dark-themed things are associated with the Lunar aspect due to their nature. Likewise, light-themed things are associated with Sol. Haunt, Curse, Condemn, and similar would fall under the Lunar aspect due to their nature (thus, would be associated with Plant-users for venus).
Ragnarok, Odyseey, and Huge Blade all seem to be stone swords - as such, I'd associate them with the stone aspect. However, for things like this, I'm open to interpretation - Undead Sword would work as Plant due to how it's a green blade that suddenly "Grows" beneath the foe, and Legend is clearly Celestial Energy.
There are dragons of all elements. That's just a summon-themed spell Himi has.
Quote
Mercury:
- Healing; Ply, Wish, (you could argue fairies belong here as well) (healing is strongly associated with Merc, as opposed to other elements which also have heals, as Merc has the strongest heals available)
- Being Healthy/Restorative Effects; Cure Poison, Restore, Break, etc.
- Manipulation of water as a medium; Douse, Cutting edge etc.
- Manipulation of the state of water; Prism, Frost, Ice, Parch etc.
Healing is aspect neutral, and every element is shown capable of it.
Water, Ice, and Steam are the three aspects that make sense.
QuoteMars:
- Manipulation of Flame; Flare, Fire, Blaze, Fume, etc.
- Ability to cause tremendous amounts of heat; Volcano, Lava, Beam, Heat Wave, Arid Heat etc. (or to manipulate existing heat sources, such as planetary)
- Explosions; Blast, Starbust, Fire bomb, Burst, etc.
- Associated with Defense manipulation
Stat association should not be assumed. Jupiter was the only way to boost attack before Himi showed up, after all. It's safer to assume that all elements can boost all stats - it's probably more based on the character and their role in battle than their element.
Unleashes and monster skills should not be ignored in an analysis. The Acid Bath unleash and all corrosive monster skills are associated with this element.
QuoteJupiter
- Manipulation of Wind: Whirlwind, Slash, Gale, Fresh Breeze (to some extent), etc.
- Manipulation of Lightning: Plasma, Ray, Thunder Mine, etc.
- Movement: Halt, Speed Punch, Death Leap, Quick Strike, Teleport etc.
- Attack and Resistance manipulation
- Manipulation of the Mind: Sleep, Drain, Mind read etc.
Movement is affected by all elements - most notably the hand series of spells (Move, Pound, Lash, Lift, Force, etc).
All astral based spells and abilities are associated with Jupiter, in addition to most laser-based abilities. Astral Blast, Shining Star, Light Surge, etc.
QuoteReading through this you can kind of see that Venus/Mercury are set up to be opposites (or complements?) of each other as are Mars/Jupiter. Venus gives life or takes it away while Mercury gives a healthy life given you are living. Venus adepts are generally offensive (see their association with swords) while Mercury are defensive or peaceful. Jupiter can enhance attack while Mars enhance defense. Jupiter can manipulate the mind signalling a heightened mental capacity, while mars adepts are generally portrayed as lower down on the IQ spectrum! You can also ratify this with the other elemental associations -- Venus/Jupiter are both 'attacking' elements are so are mutually weak to each other, similar for Mars/Mercury being 'defensive' elements (purely from psynergy, of course). Mars/Venus and Jupiter/Mercury being symbiotic could also be seen in this with the right interpretation.
Actually, it's based on the original GS's team.
Isaac is the Attacker
Garet is the Defender
Ivan is Support
Mia is a Healer
As such, the roles of the elements are associated with the character's roles in the party. By equipping venus djinn, HP and ATK go up. By equipping mercury djinn, PP and LUCK go up. Equipping Venus djinn tends to make characters more damage oriented, while equipping Jupiter makes them more support oriented. The only time this isn't observed is for Tri-element and Item classes, which have their own rules.
QuoteWhat I haven't been able to do is bring this inline with the fundamentals theory, but I'll keep thinking about it because it should be possible.
The theory is actually called "Aspect Theory", and what you've seen here isn't everything that's been written on it. This site is rather inactive compared to some others, and even my entry on it in Tumbr needs to be updated a bit. Tumbr does have a more updated version of it (http://fulminouswitch.tumblr.com/post/64759978837/gss-the-aspect-system-part-1), though. The most up to date version is part of the MkII system I've been working on. The v3.3α has been released publicly, though I'm currently working on v4.0 right now. 4.0 is much more in-depth, and will do a lot to explain things.
Edit: Wow, a lot of y'alls discussion can easily be summed up by "The elements in GS follow the roles of Team Isaac's Party", and can simply be chalked up to developer laziness. A lot of those trends are perceived, and don't actually follow the way the elements are actually described in the games. A better idea may be to separate the role in combat from the elements and instead associate it with individual characters instead.
Also, remember:
Venus: Cure
Mars: Aura
Jupiter: Boon and Care (aka Fresh Breeze)
Mercury: Pray and Wish
All elements can heal.
As far as aspects are concerned, I've always seen it as:
:VenusStar: Body
:MarsStar: Spirit
:JupiterStar: Mind
:MercuryStar: Heart
That's what makes sense to me, at least.
Well I won't bother writing up a massive response particularly seeing as you have a more comprehensive write up in the works :) I look forward to that. But I do want to defend some points. I do agree I should probably look into the unleashes a bit more, but my previous post was purely based off of the available psynergy in all the of the games.
Mercury and Healing: While it's true that every element is capable of healing, I maintain that the association is stronger with mercury. All known Venus and Mercury adepts have the innate ability to restore HP (even Alex!!) - some Mars/Jupiter adepts are capable of healing but not all. Mercury/Venus are differentiated through all Venus adepts having access to Revive and Wish being a Mercury psynergy. Moreover in terms of raw healing power Mercury heals are stronger. There's also a silly argument possible with Mercury lighthouse producing healing water at it's base and Lemuria's fountain also serving a healing function :P Anyway, because of the wider array of healing psynergy, raw power of the heals and other misc. evidence I think there's a solid case for this.
Mercury and Steam: to me it seems that the influence of steam on Mercury is so insignificant in comparison to the rest of Mercury's traits. The only psynergy that calls upon steam is Parch and that falls more cleanly into being able to manipulate the state of water than its own category. Yes some unleashes call upon steam, like searing fog, but again it still falls cleaner under the manipulation of water idea than devoting a
Jupiter and Movement: by this I mean with respect to people/living things, as opposed to moving inanimate objects. Other elements don't really include stuff about this directly.
Jupiter and Astral: the problem with this is that there's just as much evidence for mars to be related to outerspace. For one, 'Outer Space' is a mars based ability. Then there's the fact that Starburst literally calls upon a star, Nova is an explosion related to stars, planetary/planet diver. Meteor is literally a rock from outer space. Only Megiddo kinda falls out of characterization as it's Venus based (but still gives some credit to the idea that astral isn't jupiter exclusive). Similarly, both Jupiter and Mars deal with different means of generating light through beams and whatnot. In this sense when you combine Jupiter and Mars you get the complete picture of space.
I will agree, though, that Jupiter leans towards a kind of medieval understanding of what stars were. However, noting that Astrology was connected to the stars and was an medieval way of predicting the future, I think that connection between Jupiter and Astral is really a way to connect Jupiter to Astrology and premonition - and ultimately - a strong mind.
Again, you're associating the roles of the characters with the elements themselves. The games are built around Isaac's team, and were never modified to work with other teams at all. Would also like to point out that no adept has an "innate" ability to heal so far - innate would imply that they can use it regardless of class, like how Isaac can use Move no matter what. I think you mean "natural", as that's what base class is supposed to be. I'd also like to point out that outside of The Broken Seal, few adepts seem to follow what seems natural for them - case in point is Felix. Isaac makes sense as a paladin archetype. But Felix I've always seen as being more of a Dark Knight to Isaac. If we didn't keep getting copy/paste jobs when it comes to classes, I'd be inclined to agree, but I'm actually going to call "developer laziness" on this one.
Jupiter and Movement: This ignores the existence of spells like Retreat and Alex's "Mist" psynergy, which also share emphasis on movement. In addition, many other examples don't really work on account that they're physical psynergy. Of course they move during the strike - so does Piers when he uses Diamond Burg, and Isaac during Odyssey.
Steam: Yes. I said as much. Mercury is the one thing with the least support for the third aspect. It was chosen because it made the most logical sense. I mean, hell - what would you choose as the third form for Mercury?
Mars and Astral: So... you're saying that the explosive spell is totally a star-based spell, even after establishing that explosions are mars' domain? And Outer Space and Meteor, which uses the heat of reentry to inflict damage, are totally star based? Ignoring that we have abilities that are, quite literally, laser beams shooting down from the heavens, stars actually hitting the foe in the face, and pretty much every single ASTRAL (read, Star based, not absolutely everything to do with space) attack being Jupiter? This isn't attacking with Outer Space - it's attacking with Astral Energies. Starlight and such. I think you're misinterpreting what I mean when I say Astral/Celestial.
@Medieval: Huh? Where is that coming from? I don't think I mentioned anything like that.
Edit: Just thought of something, figured I need to mention it. Aspects aren't what an element does - rather, they're the shape an element takes. This is why buffs, healing, debuffs, etc are aspect-neutral - they're kind of irrelevant. This specifically refers to the forms the elements take when they do damage.
Well with your aspect theory I can see why you've made some of the decisions you have in classifying things, particularly after you clarification. What I'm talking about is using the same underlying idea but trying to capture the spirit of each element including buffs/debuffs etc. That's why I've been insistent on Mercury being associated with healing - and you could chalk it up to the developers being lazy, but thematically within the world this association makes sense. Even to the point where Piers/Mia rush to heal Isaac's/Felix's parents at the end of the game. Until there is evidence to the contrary I think it's safe to say that, with the currently presented information, Mercury has the strongest association with healing. So far as my interpretation of your ideas go, I feel like this is an integral part of what makes mercury an element. And you're welcome to disagree with that! But let's keep in mind we're approaching your ideas from slightly different angles :)
Movement: Retreat I agree is an exception. Alex's warp is unknown at this point, it could be a psynergy item he has equipped! The point behind the attacking psynergy is that it is the speed that gives those attacks their power. Much like the heat from the meteor coming down gives that it's strength (as you rightly pointed out) or the Iceburg that Piers summons to give his attack power. It's the additional fast movement that make these distinctly jupiter, imo.
Steam: I think you could answer what I would put here :D but I also agree that if you limit yourself to just attacking psynergy/unleashes you don't have many options. I don't have a good replacement within your framework.
Astral: You're quite right, my mistake for misunderstanding. You didn't bring up Medieval, I did. Golden Sun is clearly inspired by medieval times (which isn't too surprising) and given that you can kind of make sense why astral can makes sense as a jupiter association as astral is associated with astrology, and astrology associated with predicting the future.
EDIT: I looked over all the Mercury unleashes and there really isn't a good case for steam other than 'it makes logical sense'.
[spoiler]dreamtide
searing fog
rising dragon
blizzard
aqua strike/shock
hurricane
Lethe Albion (= a hades river | great britain)
ice crush
psy leech
frost bite
life leech
drown
stun cloud
sargasso (= sea with lots of seaweed)
flash force
reverse star
DD Only:
blue comet
arrow shower
dimension rift
[/spoiler]I wish I could offer a better alternative though. I will keep thinking about it.
Quote from: Luna_BladeAlso, aren't we going a bit off-topic with all these element theories?
I am only saying this because this interesting part of the discussion will be harder to find back because it has little to do with the title.
Quote from: Rolina on 24, January, 2015, 10:08:07 PM
Quote from: Plexa on 23, January, 2015, 12:39:43 AM
I'm somewhat ashamed that after posting I went away to read up on every psynergy for each element in an effort to better understand things. First things first, the mixing of elements to create psynergy is pretty much impossible as currently set out by the games - growth being Venus, Venus+Mars, Venus+Jupiter and Venus+Mercury makes that difficult to account for within the theory. Secondly, I'm hesitant to read too much into summons are evidence because that's where the essence of two elements is combined (or 1 if you're talking about the basic summons). Lastly, to me it looks like Mercury/Venus and Mars/Jupiter are related to each other in structure, hopefully you can see that from these lists.
I've always seen summons as [Damage Source] + [Effect] - For example, Megaera does Mars Damage, while the Jupiter fuels the party buff. That's how I make sense of it, at least. GS in and of itself does not have support for the actual mixing of elements, as that's a complicated mess of mechanics that nobody wants to deal with. ^-^;
Yeah, well I actually sorta think elements can be combined. I agree on what you say about the summons though.
From what Kradens says one can asume that everything is made of the elements. Just like the elements in real life. It's my opinion that stuff in the GS world isn't made of a single element most of the time.
But I can also agree on multi-coloured psynergy not being a thing.
Quote from: Rolina on 24, January, 2015, 10:08:07 PM
QuoteSo, from what I gathered the elements have the following themes:
Venus:
Part of the aspect theory states that Buffs, Debuffs, and Healing are all aspect-neutral. They may lean towards one fundament or another, but they're not tied to any particular aspect. The only thing affected by the fundaments are the form the element takes when it does damage, and what ailments are associated with it. As I've mentioned before, ailments must make sense for the aspect, so things like saying stone inflicting poison doesn't work, but having plants inflict it does.
Dark-themed things are associated with the Lunar aspect due to their nature. Likewise, light-themed things are associated with Sol. Haunt, Curse, Condemn, and similar would fall under the Lunar aspect due to their nature (thus, would be associated with Plant-users for venus).
Quite interesting. This seems to make more sense for me. I was always connecting buffs and stuff to certain elements, but I guess that is a bit strange after reading this.
Quote from: Rolina on 24, January, 2015, 10:08:07 PM
Healing is aspect neutral, and every element is shown capable of it.
Hmm... I agree.
Quote from: Rolina on 24, January, 2015, 10:08:07 PM
As far as aspects are concerned, I've always seen it as:
:VenusStar: Body
:MarsStar: Spirit
:JupiterStar: Mind
:MercuryStar: Heart
That's what makes sense to me, at least.
So you basically made one that is more fitting to organisms?
Although it makes me think that I made a mistake on putting Space and Force in the aspects. It makes the other elements less worthy?
Quote from: Plexa on 25, January, 2015, 08:36:24 AM
Jupiter and Movement: by this I mean with respect to people/living things, as opposed to moving inanimate objects. Other elements don't really include stuff about this directly.
So jupiter is a sort of willpower?
Quote from: Rolina on 25, January, 2015, 12:24:21 PM
Edit: Just thought of something, figured I need to mention it. Aspects aren't what an element does - rather, they're the shape an element takes. This is why buffs, healing, debuffs, etc are aspect-neutral - they're kind of irrelevant. This specifically refers to the forms the elements take when they do damage.
Interesting. :idea:
Quote from: Plexa on 25, January, 2015, 12:59:27 PM
Movement: Retreat I agree is an exception. Alex's warp is unknown at this point, it could be a psynergy item he has equipped! The point behind the attacking psynergy is that it is the speed that gives those attacks their power. Much like the heat from the meteor coming down gives that it's strength (as you rightly pointed out) or the Iceburg that Piers summons to give his attack power. It's the additional fast movement that make these distinctly jupiter, imo.
Well I played the first game a lot and TLA once recently. There is big chance Alex uses a teleport stone (forgot the name). Making them faster or something?
While there is the possibility that the elemental abilities we have access to are modeled after Isaac's team, isn't it just as likely that Isaac's team is modeled after the characteristics of the elements? With the way character designs are handled in Golden Sun, I wouldn't find this surprising at all.
Anyway, looking at the class system along with various other aspects in the games definitely suggests there are some consistent trends among the elements. I personally prefer to think that specific abilities can be more strongly associated with some elements than others, this gives each element a much stronger identity and contributes to the depth of the series.
As I see it, the major themes among the elements are:
Venus: Life and vitality (and conversely, death...)
Generally high physical stats, even on mage characters. Revive ability and instant death ability. It's the most "earthly" element in a figurative sense; while it's an element that grants strength, you don't find many things with a weakness against Venus.
Mars: War and destruction (and heat, obviously)
Mars classes tend to have high HP - even Jenna has above average HP in her base class. Ability to increase defense, or lower the enemy's. Most living beings are weak against fire, so it makes for an excellent weapon.
Jupiter: Agility and "mind" (wisdom, intelligence, prediction, heightened senses, etc)
There's not one Jupiter based class that isn't fast. If you put Jupiter djinn on someone, they become fast. And as has already been pointed out, they have the most support abilities, along with "insightful" or mind manipulation abilities.
Mercury: Healing
While every element is capable of healing, it's hard to argue against it being Mercury's "thing". Any character with a Mercury level of 4 or higher will have healing, with the sole exception of natural Mercury adepts influenced by another element, which I'm assuming is entirely for game balance reasons.
It's not like adepts become their element ("Mars are all warriors, Mercury are all healers"). But the element also doesn't become the character ("anyone can do their own thing with any element"). There's kind of a middle ground, where the traits of the element are expressed through the character.
Regarding dark psynergy, I'm seeing a lot of support for it not being psynergy but more like a completely alien force that is anti-psynergy. While yes, if you see the stuff happening in the grave eclipse in DD from the perspective of it being "chaotic", I suppose you could argue it's not in line with the idea, but I wouldn't say it directly contradicts it. You could also see it as something that opposes the "natural" world. It makes a lot of sense to me at least, with Sol representing the four worldly elements and Luna being its polar opposite.
@Plexa/Mercury and Steam: Yup, it's like I said - there really isn't anything supporting this other than just "What else is there?" If you'll read the tumblr series for them, you'll see that I've classified the Geyser style spells and skills as this, as well as mist/steam based attacks (mostly djinn at this point), but apart from that Mercury has taken no forms other than Ice and Water. Hell, even classifying Alex's Geyser spells as this is kind of pushing it. The only reason it's included is to have parity between the elements. I've made an argument as to why I chose Crystal and Steam over things like Metal and Gel over in the tumblr - it's in the second part, near the bottom. Check it out for more info.
@Luna/Space and Force: I'd argue these are element-neutral. Heck, Force is an actual spell, and has no elemental association.
@Elemental Trends: I do agree that there are certain trends with elements, and that each have their strengths and weaknesses. While all elements are capable of all things technically, certain elements are better than others when it comes to doing certain things. Personally, I see Mercury having better healing, Jupiter having better control, Mars having better damage, and Venus having better defensive capabilities. Of course, the games themselves don't actually support those last two, what with there being like, no real defensive abilities in the game outside of buffs, but whatever.
Quote from: Rolina on 25, January, 2015, 04:26:06 PM
@Luna/Space and Force: I'd argue these are element-neutral. Heck, Force is an actual spell, and has no elemental association.
Yeah.. I should think up something else perhaps.
Honestly, I am of the opinion that the most simple way to approach the mysteries of the Golden Sun series is to disregard Dark Dawn. They introduced many complications, not just in the elements but even in the geography of the game as well.