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General Hacking => Project List => Topic started by: Caledor on 24, January, 2015, 05:29:46 PM



Title: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 24, January, 2015, 05:29:46 PM
As of January 2017 this mod is discontinued since it became part of Golden Sun Reloaded, which can be found HERE (http://forum.goldensunhacking.net/index.php?topic=2779).

The thread is being kept as is only for archive purposes.

 :idea: Class System & Characters: A lot of new classes, stat bonuses in 5% steps. Full separation implemented in TLA: no more partial classes. Characters' base stats rearranged. Magic Resistance stat implemented. UPDATED
Detailed class chart HERE (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1akHBcZS1EDKwroj8e8_khVVlc6PhC3E7MKHR29lblnU/edit?usp=sharing).
HERE (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4izpdMnaorhNk1veHhWb1EyQnc/view?usp=sharing) instead, you can find a txt file that lists every perfect class setup (hence, no djinn wasted) that can be created in TLA with this mod.

Felix's and Sheba's starting classes now are different from Isaac's and Ivan's respectively. Inspiration for their classes (both in names and spells) was taken from Rolina's Class Tweaks for TLA (http://forum.goldensunhacking.net/index.php?topic=2094.0).
Jenna and Piers have a completely new set of classes made almost entirely from scratch: Jenna's classes are mostly mage-oriented while Piers' are mostly warrior-oriented.

Implemented 5% steps in stat increases instead of 10%, added a 6th tier to every two-element class and got rid of partial classes in TLA.

Each class line has a Magic Resistance value (WRD in the class doc). It acts as a multiplier and reduces or increases damage taken from Base Damage attacks.

A fourth three-elemental class has been added to EVERYONE, to fill the djinn combination gap left by the other three. So, Venus/Mars characters gain the 5 :VenusStar: 5 :MarsStar: 4 :MercuryStar: class and Jupiter/Mercury characters gain the 5 :JupiterStar: 5 :MercuryStar: 4 :MarsStar: class.

Characters' base stats were rearranged to balance them out and at the same time make differences between them more striking, cause those changes are (for the most part) reflected by the stat multipliers of the base classes. For example:
Sheba is now everything that Ivan was: best caster and frailest character. Ivan also gained more attack. Piers improved with more PP and HP at the expense of Felix. Piers is also a better caster than Isaac now. Mia has now second best PP but also second worst ATK.

In TLA, Felix and Sheba start at level 4, Jenna at 3 and Piers at 17. Piers levels up faster (while still being the slowest).

 :idea: Items & Equipment: Added entirely new items and the formerly non-acquirable items; tweaked MANY others.
Almost every piece of equipment has been tweaked.

Former unacquirable items added: Herbed Shirt, Divine Camisole, Casual Shirt, Ninja Sandals, Knight's Greaves, Silver Greaves.

New items: Sol Ring (= Dark Dawn's Lord Sun's Ring), Luna Ring (= Dark Dawn's Lady Moon's Ring), Iridial Ring (increases max PP and restores PP each turn), Wind Ring (Boosts Agility), Caladbolg (mercury-unleashing Long Sword), Ker's Weight (cursed venus-unleashing staff), Herculean Axe (from DD), Alecto's Mace (mars-aligned Mace), Dark Robe (cursed robe), Mind Ribbon and Mountain water (info here (http://forum.goldensunhacking.net/index.php?topic=2186.0)).

The Sol, Luna, and Iridal ring replace the non-acquirable Soul Ring, Aroma Ring and Rainbow Ring.
The Wind Ring replaces the Sleep Ring.
The Herculean Axe replaces the Stellar Axe.
The Caladbolg is now the fourth strongest Long Sword after Sol Blade, Darksword and Excalibur. It was added to address the lack of strong Mercury-based unleashes left by the significant nerf the Masamune received.
Alecto's Mace was added to increase endgame weapon variety.
Ker's Weight and Dark Robe were added to complete the set of cursed items. You can now use your cleric's ring to make either a cursed warrior or a cursed mage.

Each piece of equipment found/bought in the game is stronger than anything (of the same type) you could find at an earlier point in the game and weaker than anything found later. Shops have been changed accordingly. In TLA this has been enforced even more: Isaac's team no longer wields utter crap weapon-wise when it joins.

Equipment categories: Weapons
  • Long Swords: standard weapon (Sol Blade +180 Atk, Darksword +190 Atk)
  • Light Blades: -Atk +Agility (Tisiphone Edge +167 Atk, +15 Agility)
  • Axes: + Atk -Def (Herculean Axe +187 Atk, -10 Def)
  • Maces: -Atk, -5% Unleash Rate, +MaxHP/Power/Res (Rising Mace +172 Atk, +20 MaxHP, +15 MePower/MeRes)
  • Staves: --Atk, +5% Unleash Rate, +MaxPP/Power (Ker's Weight +151 atk, +30 VPower, +18 MaxPP)
  • Ankhs: --Atk, +5% Unleash Rate, +Power/Luck (Clotho's Distaff, +139 atk, +25 MePower, +7 Luck)

Other notable changes
  • A much needed way to increase Venus power has been added in the form of Titan Gloves (+30) and Muni Robe (+20 Pow/+30 Res).
  • Aeolian Cassock is no longer completely overshadowed by Feathered Robe (+25 JPower / +50 JRes, and Feathered robe is only +15 JPower now).
  • Berserker Band now increases MaxPP, while the Attack increase went to Alastor's Hood instead. This was done to complement the PP Multiplier implemented. I want offensive casters to favor the Berserker Band in place of the Psychic Circlet.
  • Cursed items have greatly improved BUT Cleric's Ring lowers Luck by 10. Great power comes with a price after all. Plus i really like the fact that this way the Paladin and Holy Knight are discouraged from wearing those "dark" items 'cause it would make them even more susceptible to Death. Pretty iconic, isn't it? :p

And many other minor tweaks.

 :idea: Unleashes: Chance to trigger reduced, strongest got nerfed, added damage type got buffed. Unleashing mages are now a viable option.
The base unleash rate is now 30%.

Unleash rate can be maxed to 98% only with the following set: Fear Helm (15) + Valkyrie Mail/Stealth Armor (15) + Terra Shield (15) + Ninja Sandals (15) + Sol Ring (8). But the Sol Ring is unique and you'll probably use the Cleric's Ring to counter the curse, so the curse-free max is a 90% unleash rate. The generic set is instead Mythril Helm (12) + Mythril Clothes (12) + Riot Gloves (15) + Ninja Sandals (15) = 84% standard unleash rate.

Armageddon's (Megiddo) multiplier is now x2.6, Ceres' Legend and Heaven Vengeance had their added damage GREATLY nerfed. Added damage type unleashes got buffed (mostly, in some cases a nerf was required instead) to make the added damage be slightly less than half the attack bonus of the weapon.

Some unleashes had their element changed. Among the most notable ones, Acheron's Grief changed to Jupiter and High Vitals to Mercury.

Every unleash of non-staff weapons that can be found only AFTER Jupiter Lighthouse uses a multiplier to increase damage.
Staves' unleashes are ALL base damage type: their power ranges from 45 (Milky Cloud) to 280 (Soul Doom).

Mythril armlet raises the unleash rate by 25%.

 :idea: Psynergy: Added new psynergies. PP cost changed for almost all psynergies. Base damage spells' power is increased by a flat multiplier. Reviving tweaked, group healing heavily nerfed. Power and Resistance cap raised to 255. Resistance buffs and debuffs nerfed. UPDATED
New psynergies: Tyrfing (Venus equivalent of Quick Strike), Meltdown (Mars equivalent of Quick Strike), Veil/Screen (Mercury equivalent of Ward/Resist), Punishment series (Single target Jupiter base damage spells, base power 50, 135 and 240 for each tier), Wave series (Multi target Mercury base damage spells, base power 45, 100 and 190 for each tier. Replaces the Cool series), Boon series (from DD), Raise (Mars equivalent of Revive) and Remedy (a single target Tonic).

PP cost for base damage psynergies recalculated from scratch with a custom made formula I wrote in order to make Power weight more than range.

Buffs and Debuffs cost slightly more, as well as Multiplier-type psynergies.

Resistance buffs and debuffs increase and decrease resistance by 15/30 instead of 20/40, and it caps at +-60 instead of +-80.

Group healing and reviving psynergies cost MUCH more, as well as the strongest single target healing psynergies. Pure Wish, Pure Ply and Nature Boon also had their base power reduced. Reviving effects now have ALL a 100% success rate BUT Revive, Raise, Water of Life, Lich and Phoenix revive only to 50% HP.

The Necromancer's Call Demon/Dullahan are base damage type spells. Call Dullahan is now the strongest base damage psynergy in the game. The Pierrot's Card and Juggle series are also stronger. Frost Card, at 210 base power, is the strongest Mercury base damage psynergy in the game.

Drain and Psy Drain are stronger and never miss.

The new base damage formula is Damage = Old Damage Formula * (1+(MaxPP/1024)). There are a lot of benefits granted by this, namely:
  • Base Power spells now can keep up with attack-based damage.
  • The damage grows as characters level up.
  • Mage-like classes do more damage with those psynergies than Warrior-like classes.
  • PP increasing equipment are no longer completely overshadowed by PP regenerating equipment. Offensive casters will now favor PP increases, while healers will opt for PP regeneration.

And many other minor tweaks.

 :idea: Debuffs: Infliction rates changed. Haunt, Delusion and Death Curse are stronger.
Base infliction rates:
Drop attack         120%
Drop defense        120%
Drop resistance     120%
Poison              65%
Venom               65%
Delusion            60%
Stun                45%, 150%
Sleep               40%
Seal                55%, 130%
Haunt               60%
Death               20%
Death Curse         55%
HP to 1             35%*
Ignore Defense      50%*
Force target OOB    40%
Ulysses' paralyze   150%

*not affected by Luck

150% Stun is from Azul; 130% Seal is from Luff and Rime.

Haunt triggering rate is now 40%. Characters wrapped in Delusion can't unleash and regular attacks miss 70% of the time instead of 60%. Death Curse's countdown starts at 4 instead of 7.

 :idea: Djinn & Summons: Summon rushing isn't possible anymore, summons have been rebalanced. Most Djinn have improved, the strongest ones were nerfed. UPDATED
Summons' HP% Damage nerfed from 3% per Djinn to 2% per Djinn (Daedalus: 5% the first attack and 10% the missile instead). Moreover it has been further reduced against the strongest bosses (those with HP > 10,000).

Summons Base power is 35-70-130-220 for the standard 4, Zagan 60, Megaera 65, Flora 120, Moloch 125, Ulysses 200, Eclipse 300, Haures 310, Coatlicue 400, Dedalus 120+320, Azul 460, Catastrophe 480, Charon 540, Iris 600.

Summons that require more than 2 djinn won't appear right at the start of a battle. After the first turn, 3-djinn summons become available; after the second, 4-djinn summons become available and so on, with Iris available after the 7th turn has passed.

Catastrophe requires 7 djinn to be summoned (5 Ju, 2 Me), Charon 8 (6 Ve, 2 Ju) and Iris 10 (6 Ma, 4 Me).

Djinn chart (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1YinHd1caXPu78ncb54PohPAgZr9RFpNVsld-x-P_ATg/edit?usp=sharing). Short summary: Stat increases have been balanced between djinn, overall slightly less HP and slightly more PP and Luck. Djinn that increase more PP increase less HP and vice-versa. ALL damaging Djinn are now multiplier based and are stronger than before (they ALL range from x1.6 to x2.3).

Reflux is now multi-target. Shade and Flash reduce damage respectively by 50% and 66% instead of 60% and 90%. Vine, Mud, Gasp and Fury deal base damage. Ember restores 10% of PP, Ether 35% and Aroma 12,5%. Balm and Spark revive to 50% HP instead of 60%. Crystal heals 60% of HP.

 :idea: Enemies: Stronger in general. New enemies added.
In TBS each enemy has around x1,45 HP, x1,20 Atk, x1,15 Def, x1,20 Agi.
In TLA each enemy has around x1,55 HP, x1,30 Atk, x1,25 Def, x1,30 Agi.
Those values might vary for some enemies, especially in TLA.

Each enemy that uses psynergy has maxPP equal to its levelx5 (if it isn't already higher) so it can benefit from the PP Multiplier. Others, mainly bosses, were tweaked accordingly. Enemies that could potentially run out of PP during a battle were granted PP regeneration to effectively grant them infinite PP (every Djinn in both games, to say the first that come to mind).

For some enemies (especially in TLA), the element they're weak to got changed.

TLA's superbosses are especially more menacing than before.

The monsters have now a higher chance to use their special abilities and some bosses use new skills or stronger version of the skills they already had. Some monsters and bosses and most Djinn have multiple turns.

New enemies:
Brutal Wolf replaces Creeper in the Air's Rock interior.
Nue can be found at Yampi Desert Cave.
Bane Wight can be found at Islet Cave.
Aeshma can be found at Anemos Inner Sanctum.

 :idea: Drops: Notable drops that changed from the original version.
Mad Plant (Lv 28)        -> Herbed Shirt       1/1
Chimera Worm (Lv 38)     -> Rising Mace        1/128
Grave Wight (Lv 40)      -> Ninja Sandals      1/128
Sea Hedgehog (Lv 36)     -> Tear Stone         1/64
Gillman Lord (Lv 36)     -> Caladbolg          1/256
Raptor (Lv 35)           -> Casual Shirt       1/64
Blue Dragon (Lv 32)      -> Mist Potion        1/64
Puppet Warrior (Lv 36)   -> Knight's Greaves   1/128
Magicore (Lv 28)         -> Spirit Gloves      1/128*
Grand Chimera (Lv 34)    -> Silver Greaves     1/128
Devil Frog (Lv 35)       -> Divine Camisole    1/128
Nue (Lv 37)              -> Alecto's Mace      1/128
Bane Wight (Lv 38)       -> Dark Robe          1/256
Aeshma (Lv 40)           -> Ker's Weight       1/256

Balrog                   -> Sol Ring           1/1
Sentinel                 -> Luna Ring          1/1
Star Magician            -> Iridial Ring       1/1
Dullahan                 -> Mind Ribbon        1/1

*TLA Only. In GS it still drops the Aura Gloves.

 :idea:  Terms: Fixed some translation mistakes or deliberate (but unjustified) changes from the japanese version.
The document that helped me fix the translation mistakes: http://www.gamefaqs.com/gba/468548-golden-sun/faqs/53706 (http://www.gamefaqs.com/gba/468548-golden-sun/faqs/53706)

Classes
See the document liked in the Class System & Characters section

Items
  • Psynergy Rod -> Psychic Rod
  • China Dress -> Cheongsam
  • Ninja Garb -> Black Garb
  • Oracle's Robe -> Princess Robe
  • Mirrored Shield -> Mirror Shield
  • Adept's Helm -> Ceres' Helm
  • Ninja Hood -> Black Hood
  • Lucky Cap -> Ninja Headband
  • Thunder Crown -> Devil's Crown
  • Silk Shirt -> Silk Bustier
  • Cleric's Ring -> Angel Ring
  • Levatine -> Laevateinn
  • Cloud Brand -> Murakumo
  • Fireman's Pole -> Matoi
  • Festival Coat -> Festival Happi
  • Phantasmal Mail -> Arcadia Mail
  • Terra Shield -> Terror Shield
  • Berserker Band -> Berserk Circlet
  • Knight's/Silver Greave -> Knight's/Silver Greaves
  • Orihalcon -> Orichalcum
  • Tomegathericon -> Necronomicon

Unleashes
  • Aqua Sock -> Aqua Strike
  • Barrage -> Explosion
  • Broil -> Fire Attack
  • Poison Death -> Deadly Poison
  • Murk -> Milky Cloud
  • Psy Leech -> Psynergy Leech
  • Frost Bite -> Frostbite
  • Megiddo -> Armageddon
  • Legend -> Ceres' Legend
  • Vengeance -> Heaven Vengeance
  • Hearthbreak -> Death Call
  • Sarcophagus -> Pharaoh's Curse
  • Apocalypse -> Final Judgement

Psynergy and Enemy Abilities
  • Blast (Nova) -> Starburst
  • Fire Puppet -> Fear Puppet
  • Death Size -> Death Scythe
  • Soothing Star -> Healing Spores
  • Thrash -> Ribbit Stomp
  • X Blessing -> X Breath (as in Fire Blessing to Fire Breath)
  • Storm Breath -> Thunder Breath
  • Mad Spatter -> Mud Spatter
  • Mortal Blow -> Suicide Sting
  • Black Ice -> Black Blizzard
  • Formina Sage -> Fulminous Edge
  • True Collide -> Dark Contact
  • Earnest Ply -> Pure Ply

Enemies
  • Mauler, Ravager, Grisly -> Grizzly, Brown Bear, Savage Bear
  • Dread hound, Cerebus, Fenrir -> Cerberus, Hell Hound, Fenrir
  • Serpent -> Orochi
  • Valukar -> Balrog

Locations
  • Gondowan Cave -> SE Karagol Cave
  • Tunnel Ruins -> Venus Ruins
  • Altin Peak -> Altin Mines

Moreover, a few lines of dialogue that were clearly wrong have been fixed.


 :!:  Download Links:
Patch for Golden Sun: The Broken Seal. http://forum.goldensunhacking.net/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=70 (http://forum.goldensunhacking.net/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=70)
Patch for Golden Sun: The Lost Age. http://forum.goldensunhacking.net/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=71 (http://forum.goldensunhacking.net/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=71)

 :!:  Patches Used:
  • Psy Drain Icon by me
  • Bronze icons for bronze equipment by me
  • Steam Graphic Fix by me
  • Base Damage Multiplier by me
  • Advanced Reviving by Lord Squirtle
  • Animation 48 - Jupiter Healing 1 by Lord Squirtle
  • Curse Duration Modifier: 4 Turns by Lord Squirtle
  • Simple Summons by Lord Squirtle
  • Simple Success Rates by Lord Squirtle
  • Wave Animation by Lord Squirtle
  • Parts of The Lost Age Rebalance 2013 by Erik the Appreciator
  • Parts of Golden Sun Rebalance 2012 by Erik the Appreciator
  • Blacksmith Price Fix by Atrius
  • A tweaked Class Separation Patch


Title: Re: Mod Collection in progress + Help needed with formula hacking
Post by: Salanewt on 25, January, 2015, 12:12:50 AM
Howdy! Looks like you've done quite a bit here, and I could probably point you in the right direction for finishing your project. The main thing I need to go before I go into detail is how knowledgeable you are with hacking stuff. It's obvious you know how to do some hex editing at the very least, so I bet you'll be able to figure it out after being pointed in the right direction; especially if you have any knowledge of assembly.

But anyway, to get to the core of your question. A lot of the battle/formula stuff, including ability formulas, generally use registers to store unit (PC or enemy) RAM addresses and access them directly. From that point, you would only need to know where the necessary variables are in relation to those addresses to be able to read and use those values. The base addresses for PC RAM starts at #02000520 (and starts with the character's name), and max PP is x36 from that address. Basically in the quote below.

Quote from: Hacking Doc
02000520 = PC Data *8 ; Felix (04) below:
 02000A50 = Name
 02000A5F = Level
 02000A64 = HP %th
 02000A66 = PP %
 02000A84 = Max HP and PP
 02000A88 = Current HP and PP
 02000A8C = Attack and Defense
 02000A90 = Agility
 02000A92 = Luck
 02000A98 = Elemental Power/Resist


Next, you would need to know how to divide that by 1000. The nice thing is that the games have their own division function, which basically works by grabbing value A and dividing it by value B; PP could be value A in this case, and an instruction could be used to multiply a certain value to 1000. The base damage formula (which I'm pretty sure is located at #08120F70) should link to it, but I can't seem to find the specific address at the moment for some reason. Well anyway, I think the added code would basically look like this:


Quote from: Code
rA = Damage
rB = Character RAM + x36           [If a register still holds Character RAM; otherwise, you will probably have to shift its contents to another register earlier in the code]
rC = xFA (250)
rC(LSL x2) = x3E8 (1000)
Divide(rB, rC)                           [Separate function that you link to, I'll check my notes later if you need help finding it]
rB = (maxPP/1000), Add 1
Multiply (rA, rB)
rA = New Damage

And that's about it. I think the only other thing worth mentioning would be to move some of the existing code and add a couple branches so you can actually have the base function use this code (space issue in the base function), but I'll wait to see how you respond to the first little paragraph before going into any detail. Hope this helps though!


Title: Re: Mod Collection in progress + Help needed with formula hacking
Post by: Caledor on 25, January, 2015, 12:15:40 AM
Thank you Squirtle, I'll give it a shot!
PS: have you read my comment to your Simple Succes Rates patch?


Title: Re: Mod Collection in progress + Help needed with formula hacking
Post by: Salanewt on 25, January, 2015, 12:19:06 AM
Happy to help, and I just read it now; yikes! I'll double check and upload a fix shortly. Thanks for pointing that out, I must have overlooked it during the editing phase.


Title: Re: Mod Collection in progress + Help needed with formula hacking
Post by: Caledor on 25, January, 2015, 12:29:47 AM
About the things you pointed out, just a question:
PC is the character that's acting?

I usually go with sheer intuition by looking at similar cases to cover for my lack of knowledge.
I still haven't tried anything so i thought i could give a very good look to the base damage formula and then move from there. I would have looked for some reference to maxHP to handle damage and act in a similar way to store PP.
Store, multiply and add are pretty easy, but i'm having issues remembering how to divide (the right way) in assembly when a shift isn't possible.
Regarding space... I think it should be enough the one i'll get from removing the hp% table used by the summons. And since i don't want the mp multiplier to apply to them, i thought i'd just invert the branch that links to the section of the code.


Title: Re: Mod Collection in progress + Help needed with formula hacking
Post by: Salanewt on 25, January, 2015, 12:43:29 AM
PC generally refers to the player character, but the information still applies when that character is acting (enemy RAM basically has the same format as well).

Good, good! You seem to have a decent handle on this stuff.

Division function, yeah. I normally find addresses for things here (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1nsDI-Bx6p65X25CPGdJOk8K-WVsYjYTBEN-i_bR8bdk/edit?pli=1), but I can't seem to find the division function right now for some reason. I'll see if I can find it in any of my notes and then post the address directly.


Title: Re: Mod Collection in progress + Help needed with formula hacking
Post by: Daddy Poi's Oily Gorillas on 25, January, 2015, 01:54:28 AM
Quote
Division function, yeah. I normally find addresses for things here, but I can't seem to find the division function right now for some reason. I'll see if I can find it in any of my notes and then post the address directly.
Well, there's good news. It's on my gsdata.wikia.com ROM Map page. That time when I copied the doc to the wiki, I pretty much stayed with putting new data on the wiki that never got to the doc. (With maybe a few small exceptions.) ; The plan is to -eventually- get the new content on the doc as well, but chances are, I'm not going to be in any rush.

08002054 = Division(numerator,denominator) (Signed?)
0800205C = Division(numerator,denominator) (Unsigned?)
08002064 = Division(numerator,denominator) (Signed. return remainder?)
0800206C = Division(numerator,denominator) (Unsigned, return remainder?)


Title: Re: Mod Collection in progress + Help needed with formula hacking
Post by: Caledor on 25, January, 2015, 02:49:40 PM
Thank you very much guys, i'll try dealing with this in the next few days and let you know how it goes.


Title: Re: Mod Collection in progress + Help needed with formula hacking
Post by: Misery on 25, January, 2015, 03:49:02 PM
Quote
Unleashes: Chance to trigger reduced by weakening the bonus given from equipment.
Unleash rate can be maxed to 100% only with the following set: Fear Helm (15) + Valkyrie Mail (15) + Terra Shield (15) + Ninja Sandals (12) + Lord Sun's Ring (8). But the Ring is unique and there is only one Cleric's Ring to counter the curse, so the generic set is Mythril Helm (12) + Mythril Clothes (12) + Riot Gloves (12) + Ninja Sandals (12) = 48% bonus, for a total 83% (or 88%) unleash rate. Not bad at all, but now actually there is a chance to screw up. Before, the very same generic set above (just replace the Sandals with the Hyper Boots) allowed a 94%/99% unleash rate.
Knocking the previously 100% unleash setups (though you could still get miss or crit) down to "only" ~85% is little more than an inconvenience, it doesn't actually do much to bridge the gap between unleashes and all other forms of attack. The actual reason unleash spam is so effective is a select few unleashes: Megiddo, Legend and Vengeance. Megiddo could stand to be nerfed to 200% damage, it's still the best unleash on the strongest weapon (bar Darksword), and it should be since it's supposed to be all exclusive and ultimate. The other two don't matter that much since they come from super rare swords that you're not really supposed to find, but if you want to balance them a bit I would suggest removing added damage from Vengeance, and make Legend do 1x/2x damage instead of 1x/3x (but maybe increase added damage a bit).

Quote
Psynergy & Summons: Stronger in general, but sometimes it also costs more PP. Debuffs are now actually usable. Summons HP% damage removed, base power increased.
Do you have any details about how much you increased the base power of summons?

Quote
Thanks to Lord Squirtle's Simple Success Rates patch now Drain and Psy Drain have a 100% flat success rate (and are MUCH stronger in power) and the 3 main debuffs' (-atk/-def/-res) base success rate has been increased to 90%.
What you probably want to do with debuffs is to make new effects for them with a 100% flat success rate, while abilities that have debuffs as a secondary effect keep their normal, imperfect success rates.

Quote
Monsters: Tweaked drops, higher agility...
I think agility is pretty well balanced as it is, many monsters will outspeed an average party already unless you grind a lot.

One more thing for now, about raising elemental power/resistance caps: it's pretty misleading in regard to their function. They're not magic attack/magic defense, they're effectivity modifiers. The only thing affected by the value range is how small fractions of it you can add while still using integers.


Title: Re: Mod Collection in progress + Help needed with formula hacking
Post by: Caledor on 25, January, 2015, 05:09:09 PM
Quote
Knocking the previously 100% unleash setups (though you could still get miss or crit) down to "only" ~85% is little more than an inconvenience, it doesn't actually do much to bridge the gap between unleashes and all other forms of attack. The actual reason unleash spam is so effective is a select few unleashes: Megiddo, Legend and Vengeance. Megiddo could stand to be nerfed to 200% damage, it's still the best unleash on the strongest weapon (bar Darksword), and it should be since it's supposed to be all exclusive and ultimate. The other two don't matter that much since they come from super rare swords that you're not really supposed to find, but if you want to balance them a bit I would suggest removing added damage from Vengeance, and make Legend do 1x/2x damage instead of 1x/3x (but maybe increase added damage a bit).
I already have a x2 damage unleash: Herculean Axe's one. The point of nerfing a bit the unleash rate is to give attack based psynergy a chance to shine for warriors since they're a surefire thing. And to further support this I created a the venus and mars equivalents of quick strike. But those are indeed good ideas. I think i'd just remove the added damage from Tisiphone's and Excalibur's and nerf Megiddo to x2.5. Honestly i don't think i should drop the generic setup unleash rate below 80%. Maybe lowering the unleash rate of all the weapons from 35/40 to 30/35 will suffice... it's becoming a pain to keep things balanced between old and new unleash-increasing equipment.

Quote
Psynergy & Summons: Do you have any details about how much you increased the base power of summons?
I still have to do that part. I tought about it just yesterday when for the first time and out of curiosity, I managed to summon rush dullahan in 3 turns. I was like :sleepoff:

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What you probably want to do with debuffs is to make new effects for them with a 100% flat success rate, while abilities that have debuffs as a secondary effect keep their normal, imperfect success rates.
Debuffs IMHO should never have a flat success rate or luck will become the dumbest stat ever. And bosses would be a total joke. Dullahan with 20 JRes against my 190 JPow Sheba would take an average of 600 damage from her strongest jupiter spell (a jupiter equivalent of jenna's fume) and it's still on of the weakest options with excalibur's legend or a darksword's quickstrike or Call Dullahan with his Def halved as well.

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I think agility is pretty well balanced as it is, many monsters will outspeed an average party already unless you grind a lot.
The agility thing was just a minor quirk. Since hard mode raises atk and def by 25% i tought i'd do the same for agility too. I think Hard Mode is enough to raise the difficulty while being able to still enjoy the game (= not be struck in tedious random battles against monsters)

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One more thing for now, about raising elemental power/resistance caps: it's pretty misleading in regard to their function. They're not magic attack/magic defense, they're effectivity modifiers. The only thing affected by the value range is how small fractions of it you can add while still using integers.
I was pretty much forced to do it when the main caster's Power started to hit 190 easily due to the boost given by the 3 final staves. It would have nullified the summons' power boost. And after all it's just 50 more... with base damage spell and summons it means the maximum gain is 25% increase in damage and with attack based psy and unleashes it's just 12.5%...


Title: Re: Mod Collection in progress + Help needed with formula hacking
Post by: Rolina on 25, January, 2015, 05:27:08 PM
...This may seem to be an odd question, but:  Why are you increasing the power of summons?  Most people have a mind to nerf them.

Also:  Have you considered having weapons bestow their unleashes?  Give them a PP cost, lower the unleash rate so that it can't be maxed out, and you get the choice of spending PP for the unleash, or having a chance of it for free as you attack.  It'd help encourage Psynergy use.


Title: Re: Mod Collection in progress + Help needed with formula hacking
Post by: Caledor on 25, January, 2015, 05:31:41 PM
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...This may seem to be an odd question, but:  Why are you increasing the power of summons?  Most people have a mind to nerf them.
Because i'm outright removing the HP% damage. So it's something like a small compensation.

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Also:  Have you considered having weapons bestow their unleashes?  Give them a PP cost, lower the unleash rate so that it can't be maxed out, and you get the choice of spending PP for the unleash, or having a chance of it for free as you attack.  It'd help encourage Psynergy use.
I sort of already done what you're saying. Unleash are strong, but unpredictable. And i've created new classes that have psynergies similar to quick strike. Weaker, but reliable. And allows creation of versatile character that can use 3 elements effectively, always hitting the opponent's weakness.


Title: Re: Mod Collection in progress + Help needed with formula hacking
Post by: Misery on 25, January, 2015, 06:39:18 PM
@Unleashes: I'm speaking from the perspective of an unmodified game, if you increase the strength of everything else they probably don't have to be nerfed as much. Just keep in mind, if you don't want to go below an 80% rate with unleash setups, you'll still get more damage over time with unleashes unless you're either extremely unlucky, or boost EPA damage considerably as well. Unleashes kinda need to have only a small chance at best to do more damage than EPAs, they don't cost any PP after all.

@Debuffs: Luck doesn't only affect ailment resistance, but ailment recovery as well. On high luck enemies like bosses, they wear off very fast, meaning you have to constantly reapply them. At that point, you have to ask yourself: if you have someone casting Impair or Weaken nearly every turn, will the added damage you get from the rest of the party be higher than if you had another character doing the same attacks? It sounds like the answer would be yes, and if they can have a decent but not perfect success rate against bosses they would probably be worth using, but not overpowered. I can't really say anything else without actual numbers, all I know is there's simply no reason to use debuffs as they are.

@Agility: There's a reason hard mode doesn't increase agility - it doesn't scale well. If you increase it for enemies, anything less than top tier agility on your classes becomes a wasted stat. Again, unless you grind for extra levels.

@Elemental power: Hope I'm not sounding overly critical about this, I can definitely see it as being a mean to an end. It does seem like a bit of a slippery slope though; you have to increase the cap because you're adding power bonuses that weren't there from the beginning. By the way, I realize I was wrong when I said the value range doesn't matter - it does matter for healing, since it's unaffected by resistance. 250 elemental power = 250% base power for healing.


Title: Re: Mod Collection in progress + Help needed with formula hacking
Post by: Luna_blade on 25, January, 2015, 07:11:13 PM
This sounds very interesting!!!
Looks like a hack I want to try.


Title: Re: Mod Collection in progress + Help needed with formula hacking
Post by: Caledor on 25, January, 2015, 08:22:05 PM
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@Unleashes: I'm speaking from the perspective of an unmodified game, if you increase the strength of everything else they probably don't have to be nerfed as much. Just keep in mind, if you don't want to go below an 80% rate with unleash setups, you'll still get more damage over time with unleashes unless you're either extremely unlucky, or boost EPA damage considerably as well. Unleashes kinda need to have only a small chance at best to do more damage than EPAs, they don't cost any PP after all.
Well obviously the whole thing is perfectible. I do really appreciate your inputs though, cause we share the same goal. For example you just gave me the idea to change Odissey's and the others from added damage to multipliers. I'll try starting with x1.4 and then move from there if i'm not satisfied.

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@Debuffs: Luck doesn't only affect ailment resistance, but ailment recovery as well. On high luck enemies like bosses, they wear off very fast, meaning you have to constantly reapply them. At that point, you have to ask yourself: if you have someone casting Impair or Weaken nearly every turn, will the added damage you get from the rest of the party be higher than if you had another character doing the same attacks? It sounds like the answer would be yes, and if they can have a decent but not perfect success rate against bosses they would probably be worth using, but not overpowered. I can't really say anything else without actual numbers, all I know is there's simply no reason to use debuffs as they are.
Nice catch! Don't know why i forgot about that. Will test against Dullahan for duration cause i don't really get how Fox's formula at http://forum.goldensunhacking.net/index.php?topic=2067.0 (http://forum.goldensunhacking.net/index.php?topic=2067.0) works. But a 20-30% chance to hit him with a debuff seems fair given the duration thing.

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@Agility: There's a reason hard mode doesn't increase agility - it doesn't scale well. If you increase it for enemies, anything less than top tier agility on your classes becomes a wasted stat. Again, unless you grind for extra levels.
I've done two full playthrough with the added agility thing and i never found issues with it. Trust me on this one ;)

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@Elemental power: Hope I'm not sounding overly critical about this, I can definitely see it as being a mean to an end. It does seem like a bit of a slippery slope though; you have to increase the cap because you're adding power bonuses that weren't there from the beginning. By the way, I realize I was wrong when I said the value range doesn't matter - it does matter for healing, since it's unaffected by resistance. 250 elemental power = 250% base power for healing.
Already thought about the issue with healing (which was overpowered even before imho). I'm thinking on a flat -25% on base power on each healing spell. That way my pure mage Mia's pure wish would heal around 570 (190 Power with clotho + triton + clear bracelet) or 480 (iris robe replaces triton ward).


Title: Re: Mod Collection in progress + Help needed with formula hacking
Post by: Rolina on 25, January, 2015, 09:33:37 PM
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...This may seem to be an odd question, but:  Why are you increasing the power of summons?  Most people have a mind to nerf them.
Because i'm outright removing the HP% damage. So it's something like a small compensation.
Aaah.  Okay that explains it.  Also... HOW?!  I'd love to find a way to reduce the percentile damage - changing it to 2% efficiency instead of 3%.  Also... what else are you going to be doing to help balance summons?  If it's just base damage, it won't be really worth using without some other benefit going on.

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Also:  Have you considered having weapons bestow their unleashes?  Give them a PP cost, lower the unleash rate so that it can't be maxed out, and you get the choice of spending PP for the unleash, or having a chance of it for free as you attack.  It'd help encourage Psynergy use.
I sort of already done what you're saying. Unleash are strong, but unpredictable. And i've created new classes that have psynergies similar to quick strike. Weaker, but reliable. And allows creation of versatile character that can use 3 elements effectively, always hitting the opponent's weakness.
Not quite what I meant.  What I mean is that weapons can work as equippable spells as well.  Let's say you have a Gaia Blade.  Sure, you can try to unleash it, but you'd also be able to cast Titan Blade manually.  Swap out for the Swift Sword, however, and you lose Titan Blade and gain Rapid Smash instead.  The way you're describing though seems like a much different approach... It sounds interesting.  I suppose I'll have to check it out.

Thanks for the info~


Title: Re: Mod Collection in progress + Help needed with formula hacking
Post by: Caledor on 25, January, 2015, 09:43:03 PM
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Because i'm outright removing the HP% damage. So it's something like a small compensation.
Aaah.  Okay that explains it.  Also... HOW?!  I'd love to find a way to reduce the percentile damage - changing it to 2% efficiency instead of 3%.  Also... what else are you going to be doing to help balance summons?  If it's just base damage, it won't be really worth using without some other benefit going on.
http://forum.goldensunhacking.net/index.php?topic=2215.15 (http://forum.goldensunhacking.net/index.php?topic=2215.15). About balance, isn't the summon only problem the fact that they're overpowered against high HP bosses?

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Not quite what I meant.  What I mean is that weapons can work as equippable spells as well.  Let's say you have a Gaia Blade.  Sure, you can try to unleash it, but you'd also be able to cast Titan Blade manually.  Swap out for the Swift Sword, however, and you lose Titan Blade and gain Rapid Smash instead.  The way you're describing though seems like a much different approach... It sounds interesting.  I suppose I'll have to check it out.
Thanks for the info~
Oh, now i get what you meant. However, I'm trying to balance out the game so i want to reach a compromise between existing contents not add entirely new features. Your approach seems fun as well but it's not what what i aim to do. After all the party itself describes unleashes and criticals to be unpredictable in game ;)


Title: Re: Mod Collection in progress + Help needed with formula hacking
Post by: Caledor on 26, January, 2015, 02:01:21 PM
Class data HERE. Also added in the opening post.

Just a quick note: the actual names of the new classes (named by the highest tier) and psynergies have been merely translated from the italian ones i have chosen for this mod. As you can see there are still ongoing conflicts (Guardian and Hero to name two) so don't pay too much credit to them as they can be easily changed.


Class data has been added back to the first post. For further explanation see this (http://forum.goldensunhacking.net/index.php?topic=2612.msg43528#msg43528) post.

That said, share your thoughts guys. :VenusSet:


Title: Re: Mod Collection in progress + Help needed with formula hacking
Post by: Salanewt on 26, January, 2015, 02:08:06 PM
And also to add onto that link; it's basically hex editing, but the addresses are all outlined in that topic and it isn't terribly different from changing values in the editor either. If you want more summon abilities (such as for enemies), then there is also a patch for something like that.

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I was pretty much forced to do it when the main caster's Power started to hit 190 easily due to the boost given by the 3 final staves. It would have nullified the summons' power boost. And after all it's just 50 more... with base damage spell and summons it means the maximum gain is 25% increase in damage and with attack based psy and unleashes it's just 12.5%...

Just curious, but have you thought about lowering the base elemental stats a bit? They basically work by grabbing values from a table depending on your current elemental level, and they do start rather high given the usual cap. Also, what of the boosts you get for using summons; keeping those the same?

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Nice catch! Don't know why i forgot about that. Will test against Dullahan for duration cause i don't really get how Fox's formula at http://forum.goldensunhacking.net/index.php?topic=2067.0 works. But a 20-30% chance to hit him with a debuff seems fair given the duration thing.

Oh, um, I can help with a couple things for that. The infliction formula uses the elemental levels that match the ability with the effect; for example, Sleep is wind, so it uses the wind levels of the person attacking and the targets. "Floor" rounds down to the nearest whole number, and "vulnerability" is for when a class or enemy is extra vulnerable to a certain effect, which adds another 25% to the final infliction rate. Can't remember what "unk_arg" is at the moment though. Something to keep in mind is that Dullahan actually has insane resistances to most bad status effects, but it's also possible we were overlooking something (page 3 was a fun discussion about that).

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Because i'm outright removing the HP% damage. So it's something like a small compensation.

I guess one tiny thing, but I take it you've done this in a way that leaves the enemy-specific summons alone?


Edit: Not much to say about your class stuff, but I like it! Are you still keeping the item classes in?


Title: Re: Mod Collection in progress + Help needed with formula hacking
Post by: Caledor on 26, January, 2015, 02:23:30 PM
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Just curious, but have you thought about lowering the base elemental stats a bit? They basically work by grabbing values from a table depending on your current elemental level, and they do start rather high given the usual cap. Also, what of the boosts you get for using summons; keeping those the same?
I don't think I'll lower them for two reasons: i'd have to recheck the balance of everything (psynergy will become weak again) and the basic strength for a Lv5 element would go below 100. About the summon boosts... i'll think about it later. At the moment they are the same, but lowering it a bit wouldn't hurt I guess.

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Oh, um, I can help with a couple things for that. The infliction formula uses the elemental levels that match the ability with the effect; for example, Sleep is wind, so it uses the wind levels of the person attacking and the targets. "Floor" rounds down to the nearest whole number, and "vulnerability" is for when a class or enemy is extra vulnerable to a certain effect, which adds another 25% to the final infliction rate. Can't remember what "unk_arg" is at the moment though. Something to keep in mind is that Dullahan actually has insane resistances to most bad status effects, but it's also possible we were overlooking something (page 3 was a fun discussion about that).
Sorry I must have worded myself poorly. I understood the formula you're talking about (by the way unk_arg should be a multiplier that is used to decrease the chances of success as the distance from the main target increases), what i don't get is the ailment recovery formula.
Just for a quick reference against Dullahan: having now raised the base chance for Dull Impair and Weaken to 130 (maybe 125-120 is better... will test later), for elemental level 5 (most 3 element classes), the chance to hit him with those debuffs are respectively 53% (due to vulnerability), 22% and 28%. Given that they seem to last only a single turn due to his insane 59 luck, that those are the lowest chances (2 element classes with a level of 7 have higher chances) and the fact that he IS Dullahan after all, the whole thing seems pretty fair to me.

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I guess one tiny thing, but I take it you've done this in a way that leaves the enemy-specific summons alone?
As i still have to physically do that part, I don't really know. Guess i'll think about it when the time comes. Nice catch anyway.

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Edit: Not much to say about your class stuff, but I like it! Are you still keeping the item classes in?
They're here, and stronger than before, especially the minor ones: they are marked as 3 / 3 / 3 in the elemental level section.


Title: Re: Mod Collection in progress + Help needed with formula hacking
Post by: Salanewt on 26, January, 2015, 05:27:44 PM
Yeah, that makes sense.

Recovery: Nah, it's cool. Not sure which part to explain. I think the 655 part is just because the RNG function that formula uses can give you really high numbers, and the turn part is basically duration (remaining duration can also be no higher than 5 turns). As the duration goes down, the target becomes more likely to recover before the effect ends.

Thanks; should only need a couple branch tweaks at most really. Should be pretty simple to make more enemy summons if that's your goal, but yeah.

Classes: Oh cool, I must have missed them. Nice work!


Title: Re: Mod Collection in progress + Help needed with formula hacking
Post by: Misery on 26, January, 2015, 07:01:50 PM
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Because i'm outright removing the HP% damage. So it's something like a small compensation.
Aaah.  Okay that explains it.  Also... HOW?!  I'd love to find a way to reduce the percentile damage - changing it to 2% efficiency instead of 3%.  Also... what else are you going to be doing to help balance summons?  If it's just base damage, it won't be really worth using without some other benefit going on.
http://forum.goldensunhacking.net/index.php?topic=2215.15 (http://forum.goldensunhacking.net/index.php?topic=2215.15). About balance, isn't the summon only problem the fact that they're overpowered against high HP bosses?

I wouldn't say the balance issue is that summons are too strong against high HP bosses - rather, the issue with them doing HP% damage is that you can have access to them instantly, i.e. summon rushing. More specifically, the later parts of The Lost Age has mechanics that mitigate the balancing factors of summon rushing. Those are:
-Multi-element summons (feed a higher amount djinn into an attack of the desired element)
-Backup party (bypass the class penalty)
-Ability to carry up to 18 djinn of every element (summon costs become considerably less restricting)

Toning summons down to 2% per djinn takes a bit of the sting out of them against high-HP bosses but doesn't affect them particularly much against anything else. However, it might not help much in this case since you're adding several pieces of element+ equipment, considering how much elemental power contributes to summon damage (when the HP% damage type is in effect).

Summons are very hard to balance, there's really no ideal way to do it. Generally, if you do something to make summon rushing less effective, it makes summons even less effective for anything *other* than summon rushing.

Just for a quick reference against Dullahan: having now raised the base chance for Dull Impair and Weaken to 130 (maybe 125-120 is better... will test later), for elemental level 5 (most 3 element classes), the chance to hit him with those debuffs are respectively 53% (due to vulnerability), 22% and 28%. Given that they seem to last only a single turn due to his insane 59 luck, that those are the lowest chances (2 element classes with a level of 7 have higher chances) and the fact that he IS Dullahan after all, the whole thing seems pretty fair to me.

I'm sure any class can do something more productive with their turns than going for a chance to make the boss a bit less effective for one turn... which is completely fine in this case. Using a boss with 59 luck as the basis of your balancing decisions really wouldn't be such a good idea.


Title: Re: Mod Collection in progress + Help needed with formula hacking
Post by: Caledor on 26, January, 2015, 08:24:01 PM
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Summons are very hard to balance, there's really no ideal way to do it. Generally, if you do something to make summon rushing less effective, it makes summons even less effective for anything *other* than summon rushing.
I didn't really understand your point completely but i do see that my approach might no be the best one. How would to try to fix them?

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Using a boss with 59 luck as the basis of your balancing decisions really wouldn't be such a good idea.
Actually I'm using him as the extreme rather then a basis. Something like "this is the limit" and then i move from there.


Title: Re: Mod Collection in progress + Help needed with formula hacking
Post by: Rolina on 27, January, 2015, 02:34:03 AM
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Because i'm outright removing the HP% damage. So it's something like a small compensation.
Aaah.  Okay that explains it.  Also... HOW?!  I'd love to find a way to reduce the percentile damage - changing it to 2% efficiency instead of 3%.  Also... what else are you going to be doing to help balance summons?  If it's just base damage, it won't be really worth using without some other benefit going on.
http://forum.goldensunhacking.net/index.php?topic=2215.15 (http://forum.goldensunhacking.net/index.php?topic=2215.15). About balance, isn't the summon only problem the fact that they're overpowered against high HP bosses?

Quote
Not quite what I meant.  What I mean is that weapons can work as equippable spells as well.  Let's say you have a Gaia Blade.  Sure, you can try to unleash it, but you'd also be able to cast Titan Blade manually.  Swap out for the Swift Sword, however, and you lose Titan Blade and gain Rapid Smash instead.  The way you're describing though seems like a much different approach... It sounds interesting.  I suppose I'll have to check it out.
Thanks for the info~
Oh, now i get what you meant. However, I'm trying to balance out the game so i want to reach a compromise between existing contents not add entirely new features. Your approach seems fun as well but it's not what what i aim to do. After all the party itself describes unleashes and criticals to be unpredictable in game ;)
Yeah, it's pretty much why I didn't press an issue or anything - your balancing method's quite different.  Haven't really seen it in practice, though, so I'd really like to try it out when you're done.


Title: Re: Mod Collection in progress + Help needed with formula hacking
Post by: Salanewt on 27, January, 2015, 01:31:06 PM
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How would to try to fix them?

Not sure about Misery, but I have an idea that may work. Could be too much for what you're going for though. Anyway, what if you were to make it so a character can only use their own Djinn for summons rather than letting them share? This change would mean that your pool caps at 9 per character (or 10 if you add the dummy Djinn) rather than 36 (or 40), which in turn means that using any major summon will screw with your class setup; it would also provide an incentive to play around with the class system, as the only way to use a lot of these major summons would be to try different classes. Additionally, this would mean that you can't just spam summons that an enemy/boss is weak to unless you have the necessary Djinn available, especially because the player can only put one Djinni per character on standby rather than up to four, so setting up for a stronger summon would take longer as well.

Or something, I don't know. Might even be worth keeping some of the % bonuses with this sort of barrier, but it could also take a little while to make this work properly.



Title: Re: Mod Collection in progress + Help needed with formula hacking
Post by: Caledor on 27, January, 2015, 05:17:11 PM
Keeping the HP% damage (albeit extremely lowered) is an option as well. I don't really like the cap on the djinn though, mainly for two reasons... it will make only certain classes gain access to specific summons and restrict choices a lot. What I aim is the very opposite of that since everything i've done till now was add choices and increase variety.

At the moment I'm busy making the final changes before i start to (try to) implement the infamous PP multiplier. That is, lowering the PP multipliers for low tier classes (or psynergy would be extremely overpowered early game) and a final balance of classes in general. I'm particularly fond of some of them, namely the Radiant Miko, the Incantatrix, which are both are the most versatile casters of the game, and the Fateweaver, which is the strongest one offensive-wise (punishment). Piers' new classes, as well as the paladin and the warlord are under review instead, but i hope to make a final version for them soon. EDIT: It's done.


Title: Re: Mod Collection in progress + Help needed with formula hacking
Post by: Caledor on 30, January, 2015, 12:15:28 PM
Ok guys, I'm almost there. Just a question: i got that the division at 08002054 is r0/r1... but how is the result in r0 stored after that? cause i don't think i can just "add r0, #0x01" after that...


Title: Re: Mod Collection in progress + Help needed with formula hacking
Post by: Daddy Poi's Oily Gorillas on 30, January, 2015, 08:55:46 PM
It's supposed to work like this:

mov r0, (PP) //You might use the ldrh instruction instead to load the value here, though.
mov r1, 0x1000
bl 0x8002054
add r0, #0x01
//You'll still need to apply it to whatever it is you are applying it to.

Basically, you set up arguments from r0-r3, and some in the stack depending on how many arguments the function takes, this one only takes two arguments. What bl does is call the function at 08002054, and when it is done, continue where this function left off.
Most functions either
-don't have a real return value  (Examples are when the purpose is only to set a value or do an action.),
-or return something in r0 (Usually when you need to get the value of something, the function may or may not have any other affect, though, it depends on what it is for.)
(There might even be some exceptions where something could have a second return value, however, and the Division function is probably the only one I know of. Basically, r1 is the remainder for those that don't return it in r0.)


Title: Re: Mod Collection in progress + Help needed with formula hacking
Post by: Caledor on 30, January, 2015, 08:59:47 PM
So I CAN do the add r0, #0x01 right after the division call. Ok thanks, that's what i needed to know.


Title: Re: Mod Collection in progress + Help needed with formula hacking
Post by: Daddy Poi's Oily Gorillas on 30, January, 2015, 09:17:15 PM
Yeah, (Although, the mov r1, 0x1000 will need to be split into two instructions. mov r1, 0x10 and lsl r1, r1, 0x8, for example.)
Apart from returns, r0-r3 would be garbage data after the function is called and dealt with. With r4, it just depends...? So any values that need to be saved before a function call for use after a function call should be placed in r5+ (For some games, possibly r4+), or in the stack.


EDIT: Oops... 0x1000 is the wrong number, since that's hex.

So...

mov r1, 0xFA
lsl r1, r1, 0x2


Title: Re: Mod Collection in progress + Help needed with formula hacking
Post by: Caledor on 31, January, 2015, 06:22:01 PM
Another issue... i can't find where the acting character data is stored inside the base damage formula (in order to access MaxPP)... :sad:
Does someone know about this one?


Title: Re: Mod Collection in progress + Help needed with formula hacking
Post by: Caledor on 02, February, 2015, 01:56:23 AM
After an entire day of searching...
I tried looking around placing breakpoints here and there inside the formula but the only thing i found is that the sp wasn't of any help and that r8 always stores the target data, which is completely useless for what i want to do. Dumps weren't that useful either cause they are static unlike the enemy data so all i can guess is that the information is accessed by using a pc index and then calculated from those static addresses... but that was a dead end too since none of those indexes are stored anywhere in the formula. I even tried using the added damage formula for comparison, since that one has to grab the attack value from somewhere, but the one at 080B03AC already has the value memorized in r0 and r5... This is becoming a nightmare, even more cause this is the only thing missing in the whole formula...


Title: Re: Mod Collection in progress + Help needed with formula hacking
Post by: Salanewt on 02, February, 2015, 02:01:57 AM
Okay, found it! It looks like they grab most (if not all) of what they need from the current/casting unit before the code even gets to a formula. From what I can tell, they load the current unit's RAM in r5 shortly before removing it with the instruction after #0812065C, which overrides it with the relevant ePower for whatever ability is being used. Basically, the ability's element ranges from 0 to 4 (nothing to Jupiter I think), and then shifts that value by x2 and adds x48 to it; the resulting value is then added to the character's base RAM address before it loads the correct ePower value.

Unless I'm mistaken, you should be able to reload it with an LDR command from sp, #0x50 anywhere in that section. If you only want it in the base formula section, then it should work there as well.

Hope this helps!


Looks like you just posted right as I was posting. Yeah, r8 seems to store target data to use for each formula, but I can see why they don't individually read from the caster's RAM; takes less space this way.


Title: Re: Mod Collection in progress + Help needed with formula hacking
Post by: Daddy Poi's Oily Gorillas on 02, February, 2015, 02:23:53 AM
Turns out that I studied this before Calendor's last post... and I had this in my text box. (Didn't post it because I don't think I was ready.)
Quote
r8 = targeted address
r10 = targeted slot
sp, 0x4C = user slot
sp, 0x50 = user address

After seeing Salanewt's post, I guess sp, 0x50 is the correct one!

---
And yeah, sometimes when looking for what is stored in the stack, you have to go to the very beginning of the function... That's usually where it allocates the space in the stack, and the Damage Formula likely has one of the biggest stacks in this game, if I took a guess. (See add sp, -0x70)


Title: Re: Mod Collection in progress + Help needed with formula hacking
Post by: Caledor on 02, February, 2015, 12:01:28 PM
You guys did it! Thanks to your efforts the multiplier is practically DONE!
The only thing that somehow bugs me is that the division function didn't do anything but I don't really care cause I just replaced it with a 10-bit lsr. Now on to the balance of summons and djinns!
EDIT: The long-awaited formula:
(http://i.imgur.com/f4kB5aA.png)

EDIT2: Starting post updated!


Title: Re: Golden Sun and Golden Sun TLA Rebalance: In progress
Post by: Caledor on 03, February, 2015, 11:52:08 PM
The changes to Golden Sun: The Lost Age are done. The only thing that I want to review are: PP cost of mass healing, Doom Dragon skills and the base power of summons. After that, the only thing standing in the way of a release here would be the port of everything I've implemented from my Italian ROM to an English one.

About the original Golden Sun. Things are more difficult here, cause I couldn't port the PP multiplier and the Simple Summons patch from TLA like I (easily) did with the Simple Effects patch instead. I couldn't even find the base damage formula here!! So... is someone of you guys knowledgeable enough about the first game to point me in the right direction? I'd really appreciate it, cause I'm at a loss here. Thanks in advance.  :happy:


Title: Re: Golden Sun and Golden Sun TLA Rebalance: In progress
Post by: Daddy Poi's Oily Gorillas on 04, February, 2015, 07:26:19 PM
Quote
I couldn't even find the base damage formula here!!
Did you search for matching hex while remembering GS1 can still have differences? Or were you just browsing around GS2's address in GS1?

Because things vary in size, it's likely at a way earlier address in GS1, and to prove my point, here are some comparisons:

GS1 is 8 MB
GS2 is 16MB.

08320000 = Master file table in GS1
08680000 = Master file table in GS2

08077000 = Party Mechanics block in GS1.
080AD000 = Party Mechanics block in GS2.

080B5000 = Battle Mechanics block in GS1.
08118000 = Battle Mechanics block in GS2.

The damage formula probably starts around 080BBB0C in GS1, unless I'm mistaken.


Title: Re: Golden Sun and Golden Sun TLA Rebalance: In progress
Post by: Caledor on 04, February, 2015, 07:38:33 PM
I searched for matching hex cause that worked when I ported the Simple Effect Patch, i know about the size difference. Thank you for your input btw, i'll try looking around there and see how it goes.

EDIT: Sorry Fox but is that the address of the generic damage formula (the one that starts at 08120454 in gs2 basically)? Cause I only need the base damage and summon formula, the one at 08120F70 in gs2. I did try to look around it, but sadly to no avail.  :sad:
Anyway isn't it strange that I couldn't find a single match with an hex editor when the formula for the 2 games is identical?


Title: Re: Golden Sun and Golden Sun TLA Rebalance: In progress
Post by: Caledor on 06, February, 2015, 07:07:51 PM
Keep checking the first post as it gets constantly updated with new ideas while trying to implement the infamous PPmultiplier to the first golden sun as well.


Title: Re: Golden Sun and Golden Sun TLA Rebalance: In progress
Post by: Daddy Poi's Oily Gorillas on 08, February, 2015, 05:10:12 PM
Quote
EDIT: Sorry Fox but is that the address of the generic damage formula (the one that starts at 08120454 in gs2 basically)? Cause I only need the base damage and summon formula, the one at 08120F70 in gs2. I did try to look around it, but sadly to no avail.  Sad
The damage formula function is HUGE!
The two addresses for GS2 that you mentioned are part of the same function.
08120F70 is in the middle of that formula.. (But where the stuff for Base damage, etc... was.).
08120464 is the absolute beginning of that entire function.
So I assumed you'd just scroll down from the GS1 address I gave...

Quote
Anyway isn't it strange that I couldn't find a single match with an hex editor when the formula for the 2 games is identical?
Forgot to search in reverse byte, maybe? (Basically put it in 8-bit mode with no spaces.)


Title: Re: Golden Sun and Golden Sun TLA Rebalance: In progress
Post by: Caledor on 08, February, 2015, 05:19:46 PM
Quote
The damage formula function is HUGE!
The two address for GS2 that you mentioned are part of the same function.
08120F70 is in the middle of that formula... it all starts at 08120464 in GS2, so I assumed you'd just scroll down from the GS1 address I gave...
And that's what i did, scrolling the address you gave me while looking at GS2 disassembler open on the formula i want in order to look for similarities. I even tried putting breakpoints but each one of them affected any kind of attack, not just base damage ones.
Quote
Forgot to search in reverse byte, maybe? (Basically put it in 8-bit mode with no spaces.)
You mean little endian? I did all my searches in the hex editor with both ROMs open using the addresses from the disassembler (removing the starting 8 obviously)...


Title: Re: Golden Sun and Golden Sun TLA Rebalance: In progress
Post by: Daddy Poi's Oily Gorillas on 08, February, 2015, 05:33:00 PM
Quote
And that's what i did, scrolling the address you gave me while looking at GS2 disassembler open on the formula i want in order to look for similarities. I even tried putting breakpoints but each one of them affected any kind of attack, not just base damage ones.
Sorry for being a little vague.....
There's a couple pointer tables in that function... Both GS1 and GS2 have them.
One pointer list is a switch statement on Damage Type, (The pointer list at around 080BBECC) ... (08120A58 in GS2) As you can see, many damage types point to the same place. (But there are places where they should be divided with-in those sections, I believe.)

080BC2BA should be the address you were looking for...

While we're on the subject, there's also another really big pointer list much further down for a switch statement on the ability effect. (But that's only code for when one gets applied.)


Title: Re: Golden Sun and Golden Sun TLA Rebalance: In progress
Post by: Caledor on 08, February, 2015, 11:01:23 PM
Thank you for the additional info, will try in a couple of days (got a test coming up) and let you know if i manage something.

EDIT: I took a quick glimpse at the code of the last pointer you gave me just now. This should be exactly what i was looking for, since i even think i've found the summons hp% damage. If the breakpoints don't screw with me (which means only base damage spells and summons are stopped), given all the experience gained from the work on GS2's multiplier I should be able to recreate the Simple Summons patch and then apply the multiplier in the leftover space (which was my goal all along). Fingers crossed.
I DID IT! BOTH THE SIMPLE SUMMONS PATCH AND THE MULTIPLIER FOR GS1 ARE REALITY.
THANK YOU FOX!

I'll post the detailed results tomorrow, going to bed now cause it's 5 am in Italy O.o

EDIT2 - About Classes: I just found out that the simple effects patch, which creates A LOT of free space is awfully close to the class id function. This means that i can reallocate the function to that space and not have function length issues anymore = I can basically recreate the ID calculation from scratch. The first thing i want to do is to get rid of the partial classes. The base will be the same, a system where there are 6 sets of classes for 8 characters. Those are the starting 4 from GS1, which would be now completely separated and 2 more for handling Jenna and Piers. Sara and Felix have their own custom starting class and then they rip the other classes from Isaac and Ivan respectively.
Lord Squirtle, your 2 apparently simple patches are becoming more and more a blessing. They were instrumental in fixing some of the things that annoyed me for AGES, like Drain being dependent on luck, and obviously the creation of the pp multiplier.


Title: Re: Golden Sun and Golden Sun TLA Rebalance: In progress
Post by: Misery on 10, February, 2015, 10:32:04 AM
Any plans to release the PP base damage multiplier as a stand-alone patch? It's an idea that has been tossed around many times before, I'm sure most people would want to add it to their hacks since it's pretty much "instant game balance, just add patch".

As for the summon discussion earlier, I've had an idea about it too, which is to simply disable summon rushing - that is, only djinn that have been unleashed in battle can be used for summons. Summon rushing is an intended feature though, so taking it out can be seen as a drawback. The code would involve keeping track of how many standby djinn of each element every party member enters battle with. I'm planning to make a more detailed post about it eventually. Maybe.


Title: Re: Golden Sun and Golden Sun TLA Rebalance: In progress
Post by: Caledor on 10, February, 2015, 12:01:20 PM
Honestly i wasn't but if you're interested, why not? I'll have to make some test before though, and remember that the one for gs2 will necessarily include the simple summons patch from lord squirtle. The patches are UP!

let me know about your ideas for handling summons. I've already dealt with them somehow, but i definitively open to change if i like your solution better.


Title: Re: Golden Sun and Golden Sun TLA Rebalance: In progress
Post by: Misery on 10, February, 2015, 02:30:46 PM
That's very nice, I for one will definitely use that if I ever get back into GS editing. For now though, I mainly suggested it in the interest of the rest of the community. I'm pretty sure not having scaling psynergy damage was an oversight in development, there's a lot that suggests they didn't fully realize the scope of the project (GS book 1&2) when they started.

let me know about your ideas for handling summons. I've already dealt with them somehow, but i definitively open to change if i like your solution better.
Well, it's literally that - djinn that were on standby when you entered battle can't be used for summoning. Unless you set them manually and then unleash them, that is. The idea is to add the cost of a character action for every elemental level you make available for summoning, instead of getting a potential 72 levels in 0 actions on the first turn.

I think another good thing would be to have varying HP% efficiency depending on the level of the summon, probably still 2% for everything but the 5 special summon tablets, which could stay at 3% because of their higher requirements.


Title: Re: Golden Sun and Golden Sun TLA Rebalance: In progress
Post by: Caledor on 10, February, 2015, 02:35:24 PM
The 2% thing is exactly what i did since it has been suggested multiple times. Quoting myself from my opening post, here's what i did to summons, both GS1 and GS2:

Summons HP% Damage nerfed from 3% per Djinn to 2% per Djinn.
Summons Base power buffed to 35-70-140-280 for the standard 4, Zagan 60, Megaera 65, Flora 120, Moloch 130, Ulysses 260, Eclipse 350, Haures 370, Coatlicue 400, Dedalus 120+340, Azul 480, Catastrophe 520, Charon 650, Iris remained 800.

The higher base damage means you have to be much more wary of Valukar and Dullahan's Charon, something I like a lot. Your idea is really nice but the wall is pretty huge cause we need to create a new function from scratch as well as repoint the standby djinn calculator function (if such a thing exists) in battle to the new one.


Title: Re: Golden Sun and Golden Sun TLA Rebalance: In progress
Post by: Misery on 10, February, 2015, 03:10:54 PM
The 2% thing is exactly what i did since it has been suggested multiple times. Quoting myself from my opening post, here's what i did to summons, both GS1 and GS2:

Summons HP% Damage nerfed from 3% per Djinn to 2% per Djinn.
Summons Base power buffed to 35-70-140-280 for the standard 4, Zagan 60, Megaera 65, Flora 120, Moloch 130, Ulysses 260, Eclipse 350, Haures 370, Coatlicue 400, Dedalus 120+340, Azul 480, Catastrophe 520, Charon 650, Iris remained 800.
Emphasis on *varying* HP% efficiency depending on the summon to make the higher end summons stand apart, I've already seen the updated stats for your summons. As of now, mid-level multi element summons are the most effective (again, in the unmodded version)

Quote
The higher base damage means you have to be much more wary of Valukar and Dullahan's Charon, something I like a lot. Your idea is really nice but the wall is pretty huge cause we need to create a new function from scratch as well as repoint the standby djinn calculator function (if such a thing exists) in battle to the new one.
I'll get to work on posting the details of my ideas for the implementation in a separate topic. Actually, I don't think the real problem is that it's somewhat complex to do, but the fact that it prevents you from doing something you were supposed to be able to do. I still think it's more in the "spirit" of the series though as it's the same flow they show in the djinn tutorial: you unleash djinn, then you use them to summon.


Title: Re: Golden Sun and Golden Sun TLA Rebalance: In progress
Post by: Caledor on 10, February, 2015, 09:42:33 PM
I'll follow your thread to see where this goes. As a side note, I've added Djinn changes to the first post.


Title: Re: Golden Sun and Golden Sun TLA Rebalance: In progress
Post by: Caledor on 14, February, 2015, 02:26:05 PM
The xls doc containing every info regarding the classes you'll find in my rebalance mod IS UP AGAIN. First post, under classes. Also, while the tab states "finished" I'm open to suggestions/questions/giving explanations about EVERYTHING, from class names to stats and skillsets.


Title: Re: Golden Sun and Golden Sun TLA Rebalance: In progress
Post by: Caledor on 18, February, 2015, 11:58:28 PM
Mars-element Revive in GS1 aside, the rebalance v1.0 is now complete! I'm currently going trough a full playtrough before releasing, to see how everything looks like, if there's still room for improvement etc etc


Title: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 03, March, 2015, 01:27:58 AM
Looks like my full-playthrough plan "derailed" after beating Tret. Well, at least this brought the second wave of changes. The opening post has been updated! Time to restart from Vale once again...

EDIT: The patches have been RELEASED!


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Chronotakular on 18, March, 2015, 04:41:05 PM
Alright, I've made an account to post this.

I'm enjoying the mod so far for the first Golden Sun, it's very enjoyable and has a good difficulty.

However, I've noticed the Djinni Quartz (He revives people), doesn't do anything, unless you cast it on yourself, which, is useless.

When you cast it on a downed member, it causes the person to use Quartz to defend.

I'm no good at modding and I have no clue how'd you fix this, but perhaps it's something to look into?

Thanks!


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 18, March, 2015, 05:10:51 PM
I will! Thanks for reporting and sorry for the trouble. keep an eye on the download section cause you'll find the fix within the next version of the patch.

EDIT: The bug has been fixed (it was a very idiotic mistake of mine). Wait for v1.15! v1.15 has been released!


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Chronotakular on 19, March, 2015, 07:31:16 PM
Awesome! Thanks for the quick response and fix!

I'll report anything else I find. Almost done with the first game, and looking to diving into the Lost Age soon!

 :happy:


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Sleeping Bear Z on 19, March, 2015, 08:19:32 PM
Continuing from the thread.

"I Think that there should be a Mercury version of Quick Strike since you have one for all of the other elements and it would balance Piers to Isaac and Felix. You could replace either "Plume Edge" or "Diamond Berg" since they are very similar to each other   
(92 + Attack at 17 PP) Diamond Berg
(80 + Attack at 15 PP) Plume Edge

Also I think that the "Hero class" should be given a Mars based attack (such as Beam or Fume etc) since Piers's other  Tri classes feature 3 element attacks whereas Hero only features two."


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 19, March, 2015, 08:23:34 PM
Awesome! Thanks for the quick response and fix!

I'll report anything else I find. Almost done with the first game, and looking to diving into the Lost Age soon! :happy:

You're welcome and thank you for playing with my mod.  :happy:

Quote from: Sleeping Bear Z
I Think that there should be a Mercury version of Quick Strike since you have one for all of the other elements and it would balance Piers to Isaac and Felix. You could replace either "Plume Edge" or "Diamond Berg" since they are very similar to each other  
(92 + Attack at 17 PP) Diamond Berg
(80 + Attack at 15 PP) Plume Edge

Also I think that the "Hero class" should be given a Mars based attack (such as Beam or Fume etc) since Piers's other  Tri classes feature 3 element attacks whereas Hero only features two.

As always thanks for reading and I am look forward to hearing from you soon.
Already thought of doing exactly what you said. Diamond Berg was tested as a Mercury Quick Strike and Diamond Dust as a Shuriken to be used by Piers' new classes. In the end I scrapped everything because i thought leaving some differences between elements (if it didn't already exist i would have probably never made the "Jupiter Quick Strike" for the same reason) is better.

About the Hero class: that's also something i thought of many times but i never really found a set that satisfied me. But this is certainly the right time to implement it, so expect some Mars-based offense for the Hero in v1.16. Probably either Starburst or Heat Wave, or maybe even both. Just remember that each class is limited to 16 Psynergies, so in order to add something, something else will be removed.

Also, regarding Plume Edge, don't trust old data while playing with the mod, use the editor, open the rom and see for yourself. I made so many changes that i really couldn't list them all, and one of them is the increased power to every Elemental Physical Attack to make their power closer to that of Ragnarok. Plume Edge is now (v1.15) +90 Damage at 17 PP. But the fact that it's too similar to the other one is true, i'll probably give the Admiral plume edge and make Diamond Dust a mercury equivalent of Meteor Blow (= stronger than ragnarok).


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Sleeping Bear Z on 19, March, 2015, 08:44:24 PM
Fantastic :D I'll be using the Atrius Editor for the newer attack information.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Luna_blade on 20, March, 2015, 06:55:58 AM
Hooray! More hacks to play!

I didn't know you were doing changes for both games. That's pretty good.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Chronotakular on 22, March, 2015, 07:30:37 PM
Hello! I'm back!

I have now completed both games in full. I'm going to write here things I've noticed that seem odd, that are perhaps overlooks and glitches, so you're at least aware of them.

Golden Sun:

  • Flash is blocking A LOT more damage than Granite. (I can't recall if this is present in the Lost Age though.)

Golden Sun: The Lost Age:

  • Water of Life is NOT consuming when used outside of battle. The same may be true for the first game.
  • Similarly, and Revive / Raise psyenergy doesn't consume PP outside of battle. May be true for the first game as well.
  • I'm not sure how much you're aiming for compatibility, but while Mountain Water does transfer from the first Golden Sun, it's quantity is always one.

Thanks again for making! It was a blast to play these games again with the added difficulty!


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 22, March, 2015, 09:44:12 PM
Wow... giving the features a good read, this looks really interesting.  I think I may give it a go later.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 23, March, 2015, 12:14:21 AM
Hello! I'm back!

I have now completed both games in full. I'm going to write here things I've noticed that seem odd, that are perhaps overlooks and glitches, so you're at least aware of them.

Golden Sun:

  • Flash is blocking A LOT more damage than Granite. (I can't recall if this is present in the Lost Age though.)

Golden Sun: The Lost Age:

  • Water of Life is NOT consuming when used outside of battle. The same may be true for the first game.
  • Similarly, and Revive / Raise psyenergy doesn't consume PP outside of battle. May be true for the first game as well.
  • I'm not sure how much you're aiming for compatibility, but while Mountain Water does transfer from the first Golden Sun, it's quantity is always one.

Thanks again for making! It was a blast to play these games again with the added difficulty!

Thank you for your report! About Granite/Flash, they've always been like this: Granite shields only 50% of damage while Flash a whopping 90%.

The other three are overlooks which i'll try to fix ASAP (will require formula editing though, so it might take a while). The third requires sheer luck instead, cause I can only move the Mountain Water around in the editor and hope that a suitable empty block exists.

As a side note, would you mind sharing you endgame class setup? I'm curious. :D
Also did you finish everything or just rushed to the end?

Wow... giving the features a good read, this looks really interesting.  I think I may give it a go later.

Thank you Rolina, I really hope you'll like it, cause a lot of your ideas have been very inspiring for me.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Chronotakular on 23, March, 2015, 12:51:56 AM
Thank you for your report! About Granite/Flash, they've always been like this: Granite shields only 50% of damage while Flash a whopping 90%.

Really? I remember in the original game both of them blocking a very similar amount of damage. Although, it has been a while.

As a side note, would you mind sharing you endgame class setup? I'm curious. :D
Also did you finish everything or just rushed to the end?

Well. Before my file got overwritten by some crappy junk with a save state, (it overwrote the battery) I was using:

:Isaac: & :Felix: with all :MercurySet:.
:Garet: & :Jenna: with all :JupiterSet:.
:Piers: & :Mia: with :VenusSet:.
:Ivan: & :Sheba: with all :MarsDjinni:.

I did have to mix them around a lot, especially earlier in the game for certain boss fights. I used this layout a lot mostly to promote healing and being defensive.

But yeah, I beat the game, wanted to go back and do optional things, but my file is all the way back before the Biggs fight now. Ah well, maybe some day! I don't think I could have beat Dullahan, not without a ton of grinding anyways. :happy:

Good luck with the mod! I'll check in every now and then and see how it's progressing!


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 23, March, 2015, 01:03:41 AM
Heh, I'm actually speaking with Golden Sunrise right now.  We just finished the TLA runalong, and we may start playing this as a group stream together.  Between The Balanced Seal and The Balanced Age, this looks like it's going to be freaking awesome.

If it gets off the ground, I'll let you know so you can watch us play~


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 23, March, 2015, 10:13:45 AM
:Isaac: & :Felix: with all :MercurySet:.
:Garet: & :Jenna: with all :JupiterSet:.
:Piers: & :Mia: with :VenusSet:.
:Ivan: & :Sheba: with all :MarsDjinni:.

I did have to mix them around a lot, especially earlier in the game for certain boss fights. I used this layout a lot mostly to promote healing and being defensive.

Lol, I can certainly see you being defensive with 3 Protectors, 4 Wish-user and 7 (!!!) Revivers. I think you could have improved that a lot, at least offense-wise, by switching Jenna's Djinn with Piers' and Ivan's or Sheba's with Felix's or Isaac's. My setup was quite different, as i tend to favor tri-elemental classes more, except for the few 2 elemental classes which i consider to be VERY good.

Quote from: Rolina
Heh, I'm actually speaking with Golden Sunrise right now.  We just finished the TLA runalong, and we may start playing this as a group stream together.  Between The Balanced Seal and The Balanced Age, this looks like it's going to be freaking awesome.

If it gets off the ground, I'll let you know so you can watch us play~

That's nice! I'll try to fix the bugs Chronotakular reported even faster then. ;)

EDIT: Revive bug fixed in v1.18, now i'll try to fix the Mountain Water bug too. Sadly, the Mountain water bug can't be fixed.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: FrozenWrath on 23, March, 2015, 11:35:30 PM
Is the Cadaldbolg a reference to FFX? 

Eh, I'll only know when I get it.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 23, March, 2015, 11:52:55 PM
Actually I choose that name from a list of Historical swords on wikipedia, but if I really must find a reason for why the name "Caladbolg" was the first I noticed, then Tidus' weapon is certainly responsible. Blue sword, water unleash (brotherhood's element)...
Also, the irony: I usually focus a lot on fixing translation mistakes when i hack games since i can't stand them, and in fact i did the same even for this Golden Sun mod, but the Caladbolg in my mod received this name only due one of those mysterious deliberate changes from the Japanese, 'cause it should be called Ultima Weapon in FFX. :P


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 24, March, 2015, 01:44:14 AM
Yeah, Caladbolg is one of those things where I'm glad they changed it.  Like with a huge amount of the spell names in GS.  Japan... kinda sucks at naming things some times.  And seriously - you can't just make all your uberswords be called "ultima weapon".  Vary it up a bit...


Anywho, noticed you changed the Turtle Boots - They're now +5 DEF, -5 AGL.  They're... actually useful!  I approve!  Off chance you made the Golden Ring not suck as well?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 24, March, 2015, 01:54:43 AM
Well the nane of the Ultima Weapon is one of those things that makes FF a saga, that binds the whole thing together, that's why I'm against changing those. Back to GS, I don't really like useable items cause to me they feel like cheating the whole class system, and my default approach to them is the one with me holding the nerf bat. Long story short, golden ring now casts ward, cause the aura gloves don't do that anymore (they're weaker riot gloves now) and we already had a resist effect with the matoi. Another useable item that got nerfed a lot is the spirit ring, which now casts wish.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 24, March, 2015, 02:03:44 AM
...But use-items are useless.  Why would you nerf them even more?  Why not just swap it out for passive effects?  

I'd rather have a 1-2 PP regen than a 1-3 use 7 PP heal from the Adept's Ring.
I'd rather have +5 attack than a 1-3 use of impact, which I have Ivan for anyways.
I'd rather have +10 to each elemental power than a completely worthless "cast resist on party" that breaks on the first use and is most certainly NOT worth the effort of putting in that stupid gold password.

Surely you can see how I feel about those things.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 24, March, 2015, 12:21:13 PM
Noted a lot of those ideas, and i like them a lot. Expect to find them in the next version.

EDIT: v1.19 up.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 24, March, 2015, 10:29:54 PM
Oh.  Sweet!

I'd have suggested a Res boost for the Golden Ring if not for the Luna Ring already being a thing.

I do find it odd that the Sol ring is a crit booster - even in DD when it was introduced.  You'd think the counterpart to the luna ring would be the elemental power booster, you know? XD


But yeah, my hatred for on-use items runs deep.

Why bother with a 1-3 use ring that will heal you for 70 without considering your EPower, when you can just have a stack of herbs?
Why bother with a 1-3 use ring that acts as an elixir in battle, when you can just have a stack of actual elixirs?
Why bother with a 1-3 use ring that casts Wish Well without considering your EPower, when you can just have a stack of Mist Potions?
Why bother using a 1-3 use mirror shield that doesn't consider your ELevel, when you can just have a stack of smoke bombs?
Why bother with ANYTHING that boosts stats when it requires you to abandon your character's role to use it?  Isaac's better off attacking.  Mia should be healing.  Ivan doens't need the darned thing because he's casting the buffs.  It's better to have a small passive buff to the stat it's wanting to help instead, IMO.

These things are far better off just having small buffs on them.  Hell, that's why always wind up cloning the hell out of the Guardian Ring at Trial Road - so that I can have rings that actually matter.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 24, March, 2015, 10:59:40 PM
Why bother with a 1-3 use ring that will heal you for 70 without considering your EPower, when you can just have a stack of herbs?
Why bother with a 1-3 use ring that acts as an elixir in battle, when you can just have a stack of actual elixirs?
Why bother with a 1-3 use ring that casts Wish Well without considering your EPower, when you can just have a stack of Mist Potions?
Why bother using a 1-3 use mirror shield that doesn't consider your ELevel, when you can just have a stack of smoke bombs?
Why bother with ANYTHING that boosts stats when it requires you to abandon your character's role to use it?  Isaac's better off attacking.  Mia should be healing.  Ivan doens't need the darned thing because he's casting the buffs.  It's better to have a small passive buff to the stat it's wanting to help instead, IMO.
Well it looks like I fixed them all ;)
The Healing Ring now heals for 100, the Fairy ring casts Restore on the whole party (just like the Unicorn Ring casts Cure Poison on the whole party), the Mirror Shield increases Luck as well, and the stack of Mist Potion is no more (well at least no more from Prox, you can still farm them but it would take FOREVER). The nerf to the Spirit Ring (from Wish Well to Wish) was needed because by the time you can have the spirit ring you just barely learned Wish Well (around level 22), and immediately gain a free version of a very costly spell (24 PP), not restricted by class AND by the 4 djinn threshold is something VERY unbalanced.

And ehm... this is probably bad news for you but Guardian Ring was quite broken for me so it now provides only a minor boost to Luck. After all we're talking about a item you find at level 8 and you're still wearing it against Dullahan... there must be something wrong with it.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 24, March, 2015, 11:36:35 PM
And it breaks after 1-3 uses, so... you get what, one free use before it breaks?  Those items are never used for a reason - they're too unreliable. 


@Guardian ring:  The reason you use it vs Dullahan is because everything else sucks.  And not in comparison either - I mean it just plain sucks.  4 Defense isn't all that much, and though 20 HP is a fair bit early on, later on it's nowhere near as good as regen.  It's main feature is that tiny boost to defense.  I can see swapping the HP for a small luck boost, which would keep it useful without defeating the ring's point - which is the small defense boost.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 24, March, 2015, 11:51:29 PM
Nope, the defense boost vanished too. That's what I meant when I was saying that TLA is way too easy. You have weaker enemies, higher levels, stronger gear and more gear (the new boots) ALL AT THE SAME TIME.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 25, March, 2015, 12:22:08 AM
Hmm, that's right - you did add the new boots, didn't you?  Still, that boost is minor, and with some of the other rings you've introduced, it's also overshadowed by quite a bit now.  Basically, we've got options - something we didn't have in the original.

Are you saying that vanilla TLA is easy, or your patch still feels easy to you?  If it helps, I find that spells are pretty nasty.  You could make it a light resistance ring, something like tiny version of the Luna Ring that happens to have a small luck boost too.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 25, March, 2015, 12:33:18 AM
All the boots are still there plus the greaves and the ninja sandals. Vanilla TLA is the easy one... I was just stating the reasons behind all those nerfs in tla. As for the luck/resist ring that's plain impossible cause I'm limited to 4 bonuses per item, but I don't think it will be needed. I raised luck granted by djinn in general and you've got the divine camisole too. My pure mage mia can easily reach 40 luck for example.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 25, March, 2015, 02:46:56 AM
First:  You do remember you made this game notably more difficult, right?  One person with 4 more defense isn't going to be a big balance breaker.

Second:  Oh right, items don't just have slots for the main stats, do they?  I keep forgetting that.  Been too long since I fiddled with the editor - it's attack and defense that you can add on top of it, right?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: JamietheFlameUser on 25, March, 2015, 03:07:18 AM
Yeah, there are separate Attack and Defence slots. Everything else shares the four other slots.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 25, March, 2015, 11:35:20 PM
First:  You do remember you made this game notably more difficult, right?  One person with 4 more defense isn't going to be a big balance breaker.
And it isn't. 4 more defense means that the character takes 2 less damage from mundane physical attacks (always. It's 2 less damage from Punchy Ant and 2 less damage from Dullahan), but it would make such an early ring statistically better than many other rings found much later, just cause those rings don't have the defense boost.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: leaf on 26, March, 2015, 12:07:49 AM
Quote from: Role
Why bother with a 1-3 use ring that casts Wish Well without considering your EPower, when you can just have a stack of Mist Potions?
Quick point: The spirit ring is actually really broken, but for its *out of battle* effect. It won't break when used outside of battle, so it's essentially free infinite heals. You can see plexa abuse this in GS2 speedruns. I don't know if this is a spirit ring only thing, or if other rings with out of battle effects are the same way, but from a design perspective, I'd rather just stick to passive ring effects and not have to worry about it at all.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: JamietheFlameUser on 26, March, 2015, 12:32:39 AM
I think it's probably a Spirit Ring-only thing (or maybe a Ring-only thing in general), because I've seen other on-use equipment break when used outside of battle.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 26, March, 2015, 10:27:41 AM
Quote from: Role
Why bother with a 1-3 use ring that casts Wish Well without considering your EPower, when you can just have a stack of Mist Potions?
Quick point: The spirit ring is actually really broken, but for its *out of battle* effect. It won't break when used outside of battle, so it's essentially free infinite heals. You can see plexa abuse this in GS2 speedruns. I don't know if this is a spirit ring only thing, or if other rings with out of battle effects are the same way, but from a design perspective, I'd rather just stick to passive ring effects and not have to worry about it at all.

Wow, I surely missed this. Well, as for v1.20a the Spirit Ring cannot be used outside of battle anymore.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 26, March, 2015, 10:56:37 PM
Hello,

I registered an account just for this patch and, while I'm going to report anything strange or seemingly out of place I find during my playthrough of the patch, I just wanted anyone here to let me know if my posts are unwarranted or should be directed to a different place.

With that out of the way, are Adept's Clothes supposed to be simple clothing? I've just finished Mercury Lighthouse and bought 3 sets of Adept's Clothes for Mia, Ivan, and Garet. I see the stats on Adept's Clothes are just Defense +18. Is this intended?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 26, March, 2015, 11:13:03 PM
With that out of the way, are Adept's Clothes supposed to be simple clothing? I've just finished Mercury Lighthouse and bought 3 sets of Adept's Clothes for Mia, Ivan, and Garet. I see the stats on Adept's Clothes are just Defense +18. Is this intended?
Yes. I removed the PP boost because it made the Silk Robe and the Cheongsam buyable at Xian completely worthless. The PP boost was too good to be traded for 1 or 2 points in defense.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: JamietheFlameUser on 26, March, 2015, 11:16:41 PM
An alternative strategy would've been to keep the PP boost, but nerf the Defence so that it's actually slightly worse than the previous town's best clothing/armour/robe.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 26, March, 2015, 11:25:01 PM
An alternative strategy would've been to keep the PP boost, but nerf the Defence so that it's actually slightly worse than the previous town's best clothing/armour/robe.
Yes, but we're talking about Kolima-Imil here, one the biggest gap in game between one shop and the next in the whole game. I don't think I should make something bought after you beat Saturos worse than something you can buy as soon as you get out of the Goma Cave...


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 26, March, 2015, 11:51:06 PM
Quote
An alternative strategy would've been to keep the PP boost, but nerf the Defence so that it's actually slightly worse than the previous town's best clothing/armour/robe.

Quote
I don't think I should make something bought after you beat Saturos worse than something you can buy as soon as you get out of the Goma Cave...

But as it currently stands, not having differentiated Adept's Clothes as a unique piece even living up to its name(!), I just had Garet trading Leather Armor (+14), Ivan trading the Fur Coat (+15, +15 :MercuryStar:Resist), and Mia trading the Travel Robe (+9) for Adept's Clothes (+18).

I saw your comment that it made other items worthless, but as I've played through this patch, damn, this game got harder and I thank you for that. Saturos was a total monster, and him using Fireball constantly put me at the edge of failing because he just did so much AoE damage and I had no AoE healing. Like, those 60 HP to everyone was the scariest thing in the game thus far. I think you could afford to buff Adept's Clothes just a bit before Mogall Forest. I think you really need the defense because enemies hurt in this patch. @#$%&*! Gnomes...

I think you're overestimating how the PP boost is compared to defense. I haven't ran the numbers are rigorously as you have, though. So I could be wrong.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 27, March, 2015, 12:05:22 AM
I saw your comment that it made other items worthless, but as I've played through this patch, damn, this game got harder and I thank you for that. Saturos was a total monster, and him using Fireball constantly put me at the edge of failing because he just did so much AoE damage and I had no AoE healing. Like, those 60 HP to everyone was the scariest thing in the game thus far. I think you could afford to buff Adept's Clothes just a bit before Mogall Forest. I think you really need the defense because enemies hurt in this patch. @#$%&*! Gnomes...

I think you're overestimating how the PP boost is compared to defense. I haven't ran the numbers are rigorously as you have, though. So I could be wrong.
Well, for every 2 points in defense, you take 1 less damage from physical attacks. Physical. Defense is completely useless against Base Damage Psynergy, the only thing that matter here are Elemental Power of the caster, E.Resist of the target and (thanks to my patch) MaxPP of the caster. Your saving grace against Saturos is Breeze. Don't know if you're keeping your patch up to date but patch but caster enemies like gnomes have been slightly nerfed with the latest update.
Also, thank you for trying the patch, hope you'll enjoy both the modded game and your stay here.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 27, March, 2015, 12:14:05 AM
Thank you.

I'm excited to continue following these patches to try and breathe some new life back into some of my favorite games. I'll try to stay up to date and to continue asking questions.

There doesn't happen to be a patch-to-patch changelog, does there?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 27, March, 2015, 12:21:24 AM
There doesn't happen to be a patch-to-patch changelog, does there?
Yes, there is. Just open the spoiler under "Older Versions". It's not very detailed but you can always ask me foe more info.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 27, March, 2015, 12:34:35 AM
Thanks for the info.

I also noticed I didn't mention my route to Mercury Lighthouse. I finished Tret before heading to Imil, so I ended the Saturos fight at level 11. Just felt like you should know.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 27, March, 2015, 12:36:51 AM
Well that's the normal sequence. I usually grind until level 12 before Saturos in order to gain access to Cutting Edge. It helps immensely against him.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 28, March, 2015, 12:36:15 AM
You nerfed the Gnomes?  They OTK'd my party because they were half the level of the gnomes at the time, you know.  A level 5 party shouldn't have easy victories there, especially against a trio of casters like that.

As for the Adept's Clothes thing... I'm gonna have to agree and say you should have buffed the China Dress instead.  Namely because the main feature of the china dress was that it was an on-use item to trigger attack down for a single target, which makes it @#$%-tier (Need I explain why I hate on-use items?).  Better option was to make the China Dress actually useful.  Maybe make it buff resistance, since that's always a bigger threat than physical attacks.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 28, March, 2015, 12:52:42 AM
I don't remember if the gnomes were nerfed themselves. What I did was to check every caster in both games and slightly nerf those that seemed too OP to me. But I'm positive that every enemy that was "nerfed" this way is still stronger than its vanilla counterpart.
About the Cheongsam (or China Dress), its defense has been raised... it's now slightly better than the silk robe. I know you don't like useable items but the Cheongsam is not meant to be an item you carry for too long, but instead something you replace as soon as you find something better by defense, like the psy armor or the silk robe. If I were to make every single item you find in the game wonderful, my choices would be VERY limited and go against the very principle of this mod that was "adding variety". This way instead you buy it for its defense like every single piece of armor, try a bit its effect, then drop it for the jerkin at kalay as always.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 28, March, 2015, 01:11:27 AM
I dunno about you, but a lot of my armor, especially in mid-late game, I carry for effect.  In fact, I'm already doing that - Adept's Clothes are better than the Fur Coat, but Ivan's keeping the Fur Coat on for the resistance.  If the only thing we care about for the China Dress is the defense... then why do we care at all?  It's kinda odd that in the same breath, you talk about adding variety, but then dismiss it as well.  That effect alone really isn't enough to save it in my eyes - maybe in yours, it's worth the 7 pp you'll save for the one use you'll get before it breaks for no good reason, but it seems like a waste for me to have Mia stop healing just to do Garet's job right now.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 29, March, 2015, 05:51:40 PM
I was also confused by the numbers on the China Dress, but I decided not to buy it, which kind of seems like OP's point.

Is the China Dress supposed to function as a kind of noob trap? Compared to the Psynergy Armor, which I kept until Tolbi. I think moving the Water Jacket around my party lead to just grabbing two Armored Shells and dropping the Psynergy Armor.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 29, March, 2015, 10:56:52 PM
No idea.  It never saw use in Vanilla, and even buffed I'm not sure how useful it'd be.  I suppose it's impossible to make everything useful, but giving on-use items passive usefulness is something I personally would value.  Even something basic, like resist 10 to Jupiter or to Mars would be fine by me.  I think Caledor and I don't necessarily agree on the usefulness of on-use items, though.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 03, April, 2015, 02:37:16 PM
Caledor, can you give me the breakdown for the new 3/4/5 classes? I've just gotten the final Djinn at Crossbone Isle and I'm screwing around with distribution.

And the Punishment spell that the Divine Mage picks up, what're the levels for growth in that spell tree?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 03, April, 2015, 02:54:34 PM
You can see the doc linked in the first post for everything you want to know regarding classes, but if there's something you don't understand about the doc you can always ask me.
About levels, which is basically the only thing you won't find in the doc, they remained pretty much the same and no spells are learned after L54 just like in the original game.
Punishment, Retribution and Scourge are learned around 8, 29 and 54 respectively.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 03, April, 2015, 03:19:38 PM
Thank you very much. I was glossing over the link in the class section and reading about how you used some of Rolina's work. The document is incredible useful, and it's very apparent how the extra 2 djinn per adept allows for a lot of flexibility in class changes in TLA compared to TBS. I'm eager to start my playthrough of the rebalanced TLA after I finish the first one.

Ivan's Fateweaver class tree was throwing me off, since the move from the Elementalist(3 :MarsStar: 3 :MercuryStar: 5 :JupiterStar:), which grants access to Ice, Volcano, and Whirlwind, to Divine Mage (3 :MarsStar: 4 :MercuryStar: 5 :JupiterStar:), which gives Punishment, Hail, and buffing Psynergy. Because I hadn't hit 29 yet, I had figured Punishment was simply an upgraded Plasma like Thunderclap, not a single target Jupiter spell.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 03, April, 2015, 03:48:56 PM
Well most of the time there isn't very much room for comparison since I wanted the classes to have different roles. For example with the standard mages' classes, the Dark Shaman and the Warlock share the ability to attack with 3 elements but the first has more healing options + Break, while the second has ward + ply and slightly more offensive power. The Pure Mage was the best caster in the original game period, due to access to the strongest offensive spells, the strongest heal + ward + revive. Now it struggles to be the game's best healer (Jenna's Guardian could be a challenger for that spot) and it complements the Fateweaver, which has the second best offense in the game (first is the Necromage's Dullahan) and the best supporting suite with all the buffs + ply + break. Well, at least I like to always have both with me in my class setups. ;)


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 03, April, 2015, 04:55:21 PM
Ok, I beat Deadbeard. Yeah, I felt the buffs he got. Hard. Also, @#$% Break.

As I continue to play around with the Djinn and checking the Class doc, I can really see how diversified the classes and the trade-offs that have to be made. For the first time playing Golden Sun, I didn't feel like I had enough Djinn, and I like that.

I've probably beaten Golden Sun and The Lost Age 5 times each, the most recent probably 2 years or so again. I will admit that I never switched classes in those runthroughs, mostly because I didn't need to and because I felt that keeping everyone mono-elemental was kinda canon-ish. I never explored the game mechanics because there was no need. Don't get me wrong, I beat Dullahan, grinded for items, abused the RNG, all that. But this patch really made me work for stats. So, in my opinion, I think that the patch was a good change to the game.

One thing that is disappointing, though, is the level I'm at now that I'm at the latest endgame, which is 29. I can see that there's so much Psynergy locked behind levels that I didn't get access to, even second Judgement :/ Have you ever considered attempting to rebalance the game around an overhauled EXP system that effectively gives you more levels (and access to more Psynergy) but keeps the difficulty stable? I also ask this because this patch was reasonably hard from the start; I'm positive that, if I were to give this patched game to someone who had never played Golden Sun, they would fail more often than necessary trying to learn the game mechanics. I guess I'm asking for the same difficulty curve, but shifted a bit towards the early-middle of the game, instead of the early levels.

It's not my patch, but that's my feedback. I had fun playing this and it made me think, which is a success in my book.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 03, April, 2015, 05:38:02 PM
First and foremost, thank you for playing through the first half of the game and I'm really glad you enjoyed this.
About the levels, I'm sorry, but they'll stay like that, for many reasons. Among that there is the facts that Golden Sun doesn't END with the first game, but continues, so I see no issues with beating deadbeard at 30, cause you're not at the endgame, you're not even at the half of it. Hope what i'm saying makes sense to you as well. Lol, I'll never forget my reaction when I boarded on the Lemurian ship in lalivero for the first time, around level 30 with only half of the lighthouses cleared... Let's just say I wasn't expecting that "To be Continued..." AT ALL (I crawled the internet for MONTHS looking for the sequel, but i was around 12 at that time so I wasn't really good at it). Another one is that you're supposed to carry over your stats to TLA, which means i'll have to completely redo that one as well. IMHO, this isn't really worth the huge efforts it would require.
About the difficulty, I can't say you're wrong. If you think about it, it was "balanced" by me, and I know quite a lot of the game mechanics so newbies are almost bound to get burned at the start. I found myself thinking that just missing a few djinn here and there might put you in A LOT of danger against some bosses (try beating Saturos without Granite and Breeze at level 11...). Seeing your feedback, I MIGHT try to make the early game a bit easier, but I'm not really sure about it.
About the end of GS, how did it feel? Did you try to find everything (Kikuichimonji, Aura Gloves, Zodiac Wand, Spiked Armor) or you were satisfied with the items you had (note that Aura Gloves are nowhere near the useless item they were)? Also, any feedback on the nerf/buff the other endgame items received or the class setup you used?

Also, I'm eagerly waiting for your thought about the second half of the game as well.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 03, April, 2015, 06:32:59 PM
Thanks for responding so quickly.

To be honest, I never expected a game rebalanced around levels due to the second game and The Reunion. Just vocalizing disappointment mostly stemming from approaching the end of the game.

About the difficulty, I looks like I express my concerns and you felt the same way. I know that I am biased myself having knowledge of the game mechanics and may be underestimating the inquisitiveness and ingenuity of brand new players. I'd have to find someone who has never played and ask for feedback. But I know your audience isn't huge, so I don't know if it's worth the time. Just my thoughts.

As for items, let's see. I know that I have everything from every CHEST. Asura's Armor, Princess Robe, Gaia Blade, Demon's Axe, all that. I have not, but I will definitely go back and try to find all the rare drop items, but after I've beaten the final boss at my current level. I guess I'll save state right before the last point of no return, beat S,M, and the dragon, then run around. I expect I should be able to beat them having beat Deadbeard, but I really don't know. I'll have to work on my RNG manipulation again or just give the "speed-up" button a workout. Even if I don't need the stats, I just want to see how the items got changed.

I will say that I found it very, very difficult in this playthrough to find reason to use summons, although this may be a side effect of running through the game at roughly the same pace as Vanilla. Against Deadbeard, for example, I had Isaac as Samurai (3 :JupiterStar:/4 :MarsStar:/5 :VenusStar:), Garet as Leader(3 :MercuryStar:/4 :VenusStar:/5 :MarsStar:), Ivan as Divine Mage (3 :MarsStar:/4 :MercuryStar:/5 :JupiterStar:), and Mia as White Mage (3 :VenusStar:/4 :JupiterStar:/5 :MercuryStar:). There was no way at all that I was able to take off Djinn in order to summon without toeing the failure line extremely hard. Deadbeard casting Ward often made summons just not worth it, although that is definitely a function of me using tri-elemental classes. But I'm positive I would have died inside of a turn without those high class stat multipliers. But I know summons are most effective with a high elemental power level, which leans towards mono-elemental classes, but lack class stat multipliers.

I'll definitely do another big post after I collect everything and beat S&M.

I do DEFINITELY want to say that I hate you for the Devil's Crown. That thing is SO GOOD stat-wise, but it's cursed. It's not worth it to stick it on Mia because she can't use another of the other endgame cursed equipment, but, wow, is it tempting. It's definitely going to end up on Garet.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 03, April, 2015, 07:28:24 PM
I will say that I found it very, very difficult in this playthrough to find reason to use summons, [...] There was no way at all that I was able to take off Djinn in order to summon without toeing the failure line extremely hard [...] although that is definitely a function of me using tri-elemental classes.
Yup, it's intended. You can probably tell on the first glance at the doc that mono elemental are the weakest, followed by item then by dual and so on. The better psynergy sets and higher stat you gain are supposed to be compensated by the higher penalty suffered when using djinn (which are more useful, especially the reviving and damaging ones).

I do DEFINITELY want to say that I hate you for the Devil's Crown. That thing is SO GOOD stat-wise, but it's cursed. It's not worth it to stick it on Mia because she can't use another of the other endgame cursed equipment, but, wow, is it tempting. It's definitely going to end up on Garet.
And this one is also quite the big compliment cause it is completely intended. :P
If you see the first post, you'll find that the luck penalty on the ring was introduced not only to compensate the new boosts, but also to discourage the use of those "dark" items by "righteous" classes like holy knight, paladin and healers, which are generally the ones with high luck.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 03, April, 2015, 09:58:58 PM
Oh, I know the more djinn-complex classes have the higher base stats, I guess I was trying to get across that I'm positive that will lesser classes, I would have gotten toasted. Like, dual-elemental classes would have gotten dunked against Deadbeard. I like that it was challenging, but without grinding for stats, there was no other way to compete.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 04, April, 2015, 01:32:22 AM
Zodiac Wand is originally +102 attack power, right?  And it's got a +8 Max PP boost?  Hmm...

What ratio are you using for the weapon variability you use?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 04, April, 2015, 02:07:32 AM
                                                                                                                 ENDGAME-ish RNG ITEM POST

I assume that the Prophet's Hat (+30 DEF / Curse active) didn't change? Well, I went back and got one. I see it did not change :( Not really sure it should change, or what it would change to, but it is what it is.

Aura Gloves (+12 ATK / +36 DEF / Crit Increase) [As an added note, would it be possible to remove the "may break if used in battle" text?] An Attack boost, Unleash chance increase, and still the second highest shield/glove Def? Thank you very much, I see you're trying to get me to give Garet the Mirror Shield so Issac has the Attack Boost and Unleash increase. Well, it worked. (How am I supposed to pick between the Demon Axe and Muramasa for Garet? Why are choices in my Golden Sun?) 

Gigant Axe (+122 ATK / -7 DEF) Definitely would have been good had I found it when I originally went through Venus Lighthouse Exit and onto Lalivero. As it is, probably one of the best non-cursed weapons. Mars Unleash too.

Zodiac Wand (+106 ATK / +15 :JupiterStar: PWR / +8 MaxPP) [Found it on the first try, too. Must be born under a good sign.] The MaxPP +8 is level with the Crystal Rod (+94 ATK / +10 :MercuryStar: PWR / +8 MaxPP), but the Attack has been buffed ahead of the Swift Sword to +106. The  +15  :JupiterStar: Bonus and additional ATK, however, makes it obvious who the owner of this staff will be. Still a toss-up between this, the Swift Sword, and (I'm going to assume since I haven't found it yet) the Kikuichimonji if you plan on making Ivan attack more often, but the power boost is solid for spells.

Spiked Armor (+10 ATK / +40 DEF / Crit Increase) Not very lucky right now. I mean, in Venus Lighthouse proper there's, like, 5 different rare drops and it took me a while to get this one. Hard toss-up between Spiked Armor and Asura's Armor. Considering I've got Mia casting Wish every turn, the HP regen from Asura's really goes out the window. But I'll be a bit vain here; I like how Asura's Armor looks, and while the Spiked Armor is now stronger than Asura's in every way but defense (as is befitting a rare drop item, in my opinion) I will stick with Asura's Armor.

Feathered Robe (+38 DEF / +15 :JupiterStar: PWR / +30 :JupiterStar: RES / +30 AGI) I really, really dislike the position I'm placed in now. The Robe offers only 4 less defense than the Storm Gear, which Ivan is currently wearing. However, the prospect of an additional 15 :JupiterStar: Power, 15 more :JupiterStar: Defense, and a huge amount of agility make it a tough sell against +15  :MercuryStar: :MarsStar: :JupiterStar: resist and slightly more defense. Storm Gear has the same defense as Asura's Armor. Maybe Isaac?

Stone of @#$%&*! Sages on Mt. Aleph in Hell, @#$% getting the Kikuichimonji (+122 ATK / +10 AGI) Took me a TON of time, even lovingly murdering every single Fenrir with a Mars Djinn. A really nice sword to have, but currently looks like it pales compared to the Zodiac Wand. The unleash is boss and has a chance to ignore half the enemy's defense, but I don't know if it's worth giving up the +MaxPP and  :JupiterStar: Power from the Zodiac Wand. I'm probably going to stick with the wand, because A. I don't really know what +MaxPP is worth in terms of power to spells, but I know more is always better and B. I'm pretty sure I won't be attacking with Ivan too much in the final battle. Only the Blessed Mace left. Hope I haven't completely depopulated Venus Lighthouse of monsters...

Blessed Mace (+126 ATK / +8 HP Regen / Use to heal 200 HP) HAS NO UNLEASH. After running around Venus Lighthouse for hours looking for Thunder Lizards to end for the Mace, I got one. And let me tell you, it was definitely not worth it. In the time it took me to find this worthless item, I'd collected 3 Kikuichimonjis, 3 Zodiac Wands, and 2 Feathered Robes. Really high ATK for Mia, but I personally, am going to stick with the Crystal Rod and its :MercuryStar: Power for better Wishes.

At the end of my RNG Items Escapade, my team is now level 38 (up from 29 at Deadbeard). I now have 310K coins (up from 95K at Deadbeard). 10 hours of game time (about 6 hours real-time, thank you Speed Up button on VBA-M). Some really, really strong items here, but I'm now afraid that my team is way too strong for the last battle (I have no knowledge of S&M's tactics.) I guess we'll see. 


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 04, April, 2015, 02:46:16 AM
Think you can post the stats?  I'm nearing mid-game, and would like to compare how weapons are now to how they are then.  Will help me get a betting feel for how they compare to each other, IMO.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 04, April, 2015, 12:08:54 PM
Zodiac Wand is originally +102 attack power, right?  And it's got a +8 Max PP boost?  Hmm...

What ratio are you using for the weapon variability you use?
... and +15 to JPower. About the ratio, those that also increase power increase slightly less PP, but i didn't use a strict formula.
About the items i won't make a chart like the ones for classes and djinn cause it's way easier just loading the rom in the editor


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 04, April, 2015, 01:23:15 PM
@Rolina

Yeah, no problem. I think I may have left the Wicked Mace in Crossbone Isle :( After I get the Blessed Mace and Wicked Mace, I'll make several big endgame weapon and equipment posts.

It'll be worth it just to give and get feedback as to why certain setups were chosen.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 04, April, 2015, 03:35:54 PM
Zodiac Wand is originally +102 attack power, right?  And it's got a +8 Max PP boost?  Hmm...

What ratio are you using for the weapon variability you use?
... and +15 to JPower. About the ratio, those that also increase power increase slightly less PP, but i didn't use a strict formula.
About the items i won't make a chart like the ones for classes and djinn cause it's way easier just loading the rom in the editor
Eh, until I finish it, that feels like cheating. :P

So you winged it, eh?  I get ya.  I was hoping you had a formula or something so I could compare it to the one I use currently.  I suppose once I finish the game I'll plug them into an XLS and follow the trendline then.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 05, April, 2015, 06:14:59 PM
Alright, Saturos and Menardi are no more and I depart Lalivero on a Lemurian ship. The beacon has been lit, but Isaac and co. press on to find Jenna, Felix, Kraden, and Sheba.

I used my RNG item hunting save file for this, with characters at level 38, and the final battle was involved, but fairly so. My characters were not in danger of dying, considering that having a Samurai, Leader, Divine Mage, and White Mage allows for 2 Resists, a Protect, and a Wish Well immediately after either S&M or Fusion Dragon uses Break. I find this fair; I had a party that spent the time looking for the best gear in the game, collected every Djinn, beat the game's superboss, and put my characters in (arguably) the best classes available for the game. The journey to that point was far more involved than in previous playthroughs, so I definitely enjoyed my experience.

Glowing praise for:

The tweaked class system. It was worth the playtime just to see all the new and renamed classes. I'm pretty sure that was a lot of Rolina's work and since I can't really tell when one person's modifications stopped and another person's started, I'm going to give praise to both. I haven't taken the time to check each instance where the new system differentiated from vanilla, but I enjoyed the changes.

Tweaked items in general were great to behold. Giving the weapon classes unique stat alterations (Axes = Big ATK, but actually LOWER DEF means that Garet is able to shoulder the burden easier than Isaac) was such a nice change. This is one of the changes I am going to enjoy seeing in The Lost Age because of the blacksmith system, so there'll be a ton of new items and weapons to seek out.

A few complaints:

It doesn't look and feel like you've scaled +MaxPP well enough in items over the course of the game, especially some of the endgame caster weapons, and doubly when compared to the PP-restoring items Mia had. I think my set-up for Mia endgame had her recovering 12PP per turn with the Princess Robe and the Mythril Circlet, which is half a Wish Well per turn, but she still gets +8 MaxPP from the Cyr Rod. Ivan (caster to the end) doesn't get enough of a damage boost coming from his own set-up, with only the Zodiac Wand (an RNG endgame item) providing +MaxPP at +8. Heck, the Ceres' Helm and Thunder Crown both provide almost DOUBLE the +MaxPP at +15. Now there may be an absolute ton of +MaxPP items for casters to take advantage of in The Lost Age, but Ivan definitely got the screwed in terms of relative utility gained at the end of The Broken Seal.

Rings still feel extraneous, sans the new Angel's Ring (whose changes I very much liked.). I've never used one in battle. I don't know if you'd want to overhaul them, but providing them with wildly varying stat increases could be a way to make people seek them out. If you wanted to get really crazy, make them provide 1.1x a particular stat. While that example is extreme, I think rings got overlooked as items that could be important.

Blessed Mace. To be honest, you should just leave it as is as an endgame black humour joke to remind people that just because it's shiny and makes some numbers go up, doesn't mean that it's actually better. A "grass is always greener" kinda thing. But, man, was that weapon disappointing.  


I'm looking forward to playing the second game and seeing the changes that have taken place, specifically in classes and psynergy available.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 05, April, 2015, 11:48:46 PM
The tweaked class system. It was worth the playtime just to see all the new and renamed classes. I'm pretty sure that was a lot of Rolina's work and since I can't really tell when one person's modifications stopped and another person's started, I'm going to give praise to both. I haven't taken the time to check each instance where the new system differentiated from vanilla, but I enjoyed the changes.
The classes Rolina made that i literally copy-pasted (with very minor tweaks from me) are in TLA and are the base classes of Felix and Sheba. I did everything else on my own. All i can say is that the best is yet to come, 'cause originally all this was done just to give Jenna and Piers the classes they deserve.

Quote
It doesn't look and feel like you've scaled +MaxPP well enough in items over the course of the game, especially some of the endgame caster weapons, and doubly when compared to the PP-restoring items Mia had. I think my set-up for Mia endgame had her recovering 12PP per turn with the Princess Robe and the Mythril Circlet, which is half a Wish Well per turn, but she still gets +8 MaxPP from the Cyr Rod. Ivan (caster to the end) doesn't get enough of a damage boost coming from his own set-up, with only the Zodiac Wand (an RNG endgame item) providing +MaxPP at +8. Heck, the Ceres' Helm and Thunder Crown both provide almost DOUBLE the +MaxPP at +15. Now there may be an absolute ton of +MaxPP items for casters to take advantage of in The Lost Age, but Ivan definitely got the screwed in terms of relative utility gained at the end of The Broken Seal.
Yup, there was literally no space to balance that in the first game. The PP increase/regen is supposed to come mainly from headgears (circlets) and secondarily from robes (mostly additional regen). The PP increase from the staves is VERY minor and it's not supposed to balance things out. Balance wise, i think the extra jupiter power ivan has (feathered robe + zodiac wand means +20 JPower compared to Mia's MePower) should even out with her PP regen.

Quote
Rings still feel extraneous, sans the new Angel's Ring (whose changes I very much liked.). I've never used one in battle. I don't know if you'd want to overhaul them, but providing them with wildly varying stat increases could be a way to make people seek them out. If you wanted to get really crazy, make them provide 1.1x a particular stat. While that example is extreme, I think rings got overlooked as items that could be important
Well there's the war ring that increases attack, the wind ring for agility, the adept ring replenishes PP, the healing ring recovers HP, the unicorn ring and the fairy ring are multi-target and both effects are unique in both games... i don't know what else I could've done with them... there isn't a single ring that wasn't tweaked.
I also thought about x1.1 multipliers many times in the past but i always ended up scrapping the idea, in fact i removed them wherever i could (turtle boots, even shirt etc).

Quote
Blessed Mace. To be honest, you should just leave it as is as an endgame black humour joke to remind people that just because it's shiny and makes some numbers go up, doesn't mean that it's actually better. A "grass is always greener" kinda thing. But, man, was that weapon disappointing. 
Suggestions? IMHO before was Mia's best weapon but now it's clearly overshadowed by the Crystal Rod so... The first thing that comes to mind is to add a Luck boost to it, but i want to hear your opinion as well.

Anyway, thanks for posting all this. It was very interesting and useful.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 06, April, 2015, 04:43:13 AM
First things first, to whoever gave Felix the class of Rogue and then gave me Growth, I thank you in many ways. [Story time] When I was a lot younger, I read the Circle of Magic series of books by Tamora Price. One of the characters in this series is a former street thief who happens to have an affinity for plant-magic. Now, I know that Felix is neither a young teenage boy nor an inherently bad person, but the idea of a stand-offish outcast who has a green thumb is burned so strong in my head thank I wanted to thank someone for reminding me of the archetype.

I will take another hard look again at rings in TBS.



Blessed Mace. Hmm. I don't know exactly how much editing of individual items you can do but we'll take a shot in the dark.

Something like this?:
 
Blessed Mace [PURE ELEMENTAL WEAPON :MercuryStar: ] +118 ATK  +3 LCK  +10 :VenusStar: :MercuryStar: :MarsStar: :JupiterStar: RES
UNLEASH: Aqua Regia +55 :MercuryStar: extra damage  side effect of Venom (is it even possible to stick an unleash and animation on a weapon? Perhaps Toadonpa's Sticky Poison?)

I think this may be too strong, but I know it opens up the tantalizing prospect of ignoring the Angel's Robe for the Storm Gear on Mia. Trading utility for Ele. Def only works if it's not just straight better and there's no real tradeoff.

With this you could buff the Crystal Rod's Attack to +98-100 and +MaxPP to +10 (with the Zodiac Wand as well). 10 just feels like such a round number that it'll definitely let you know it's a "last item down a specific path" (in this case, the Mercury and Jupiter caster staves) and I don't think the slight buff is going to throw balance out of whack.

(Ignore the last paragraph if you've already run the numbers and really like where the Crystal Rod and Zodiac Wand are right now. Not need to fix what isn't broken.)


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 06, April, 2015, 09:31:10 AM
Quote
First things first, to whoever gave Felix the class of Rogue and then gave me Growth, I thank you in many ways. [Story time] When I was a lot younger, I read the Circle of Magic series of books by Tamora Price. One of the characters in this series is a former street thief who happens to have an affinity for plant-magic. Now, I know that Felix is neither a young teenage boy nor an inherently bad person, but the idea of a stand-offish outcast who has a green thumb is burned so strong in my head thank I wanted to thank someone for reminding me of the archetype.
That would be Rolina. I really liked her idea of differentiating characters of the same element in the casting department - Felix is the Plant to Isaac's Earth and Sheba is the Wind to Ivan's Lightning - and that's how i ended up making Jenna the Fire to Garet's Blast and Piers the Water to Mia's Ice as well. This (http://forum.goldensunhacking.net/index.php?topic=2094.0) is the post i took inspiration from.

Quote
Blessed Mace [PURE ELEMENTAL WEAPON :MercuryStar: ] +118 ATK  +3 LCK  +10 :VenusStar: :MercuryStar: :MarsStar: :JupiterStar: RES
UNLEASH: Aqua Regia +55 :MercuryStar: extra damage  side effect of Venom (is it even possible to stick an unleash and animation on a weapon? Perhaps Toadonpa's Sticky Poison?)
Well with the Righteous Mace it would make both endgame maces of the same element so... And + Res on top of  +Luck it's impossible cause i've got only 4 slots for bonuses. I guess i'll stick to my initial idea and just add +5 Luck to it. About the animation, I could probably do it (the Caladbolg basically unleashes Poseidon's Watery Grave).

And thanks for reporting the now useless message on the aura gloves, it's fixed for v1.21.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 06, April, 2015, 02:27:11 PM
Damn, I didn't realize there were such limitations for weapons. My Blessed Mace was a total shot in the dark. I completely forgot about the Righteous Mace; you're correct.

Caladbolg? Guess I've got a game to play.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 06, April, 2015, 02:29:28 PM
Read the first post to know what the caladbolg is. Oh and 1.21 is out


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 06, April, 2015, 06:52:13 PM
I was playing on 1.18, not 1.20 ._. I apologize about the ring comments.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 06, April, 2015, 07:39:02 PM
I was playing on 1.18, not 1.20 ._. I apologize about the ring comments.
No prob, there was no way you could've known if you were playing with an older version after all. Have fun with TLA ;)


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 06, April, 2015, 10:27:33 PM
The tweaked class system. It was worth the playtime just to see all the new and renamed classes. I'm pretty sure that was a lot of Rolina's work and since I can't really tell when one person's modifications stopped and another person's started, I'm going to give praise to both. I haven't taken the time to check each instance where the new system differentiated from vanilla, but I enjoyed the changes.

Tweaked items in general were great to behold. Giving the weapon classes unique stat alterations (Axes = Big ATK, but actually LOWER DEF means that Garet is able to shoulder the burden easier than Isaac) was such a nice change. This is one of the changes I am going to enjoy seeing in The Lost Age because of the blacksmith system, so there'll be a ton of new items and weapons to seek out.

I cannot claim credit for any of that.  I may have laid the basis for the idea, but the work was all Caledor's - my philosophies of game design are a bit different.  For instance, I would never have given any class both the Plasma and Prism lines, as they are roughly similar in power.  My class building ideas are simply too different.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 06, April, 2015, 11:20:16 PM
The tweaked class system. It was worth the playtime just to see all the new and renamed classes. I'm pretty sure that was a lot of Rolina's work and since I can't really tell when one person's modifications stopped and another person's started, I'm going to give praise to both. I haven't taken the time to check each instance where the new system differentiated from vanilla, but I enjoyed the changes.

Tweaked items in general were great to behold. Giving the weapon classes unique stat alterations (Axes = Big ATK, but actually LOWER DEF means that Garet is able to shoulder the burden easier than Isaac) was such a nice change. This is one of the changes I am going to enjoy seeing in The Lost Age because of the blacksmith system, so there'll be a ton of new items and weapons to seek out.

I cannot claim credit for any of that.  I may have laid the basis for the idea, but the work was all Caledor's - my philosophies of game design are a bit different.  For instance, I would never have given any class both the Plasma and Prism lines, as they are roughly similar in power.  My class building ideas are simply too different.
Well, this is intresting. Ever thought about making a topic about this?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 07, April, 2015, 02:32:48 AM
I wanna hear about this too. I'd really onky been thinking about the classes in terms of AoE v Single-target, access to buffing or healing Psynergy, and which elemental damage they could do. I never thought about the power level of spells that often (mostly because they aren't visible in the game and I never felt like accessing the wiki every time I booted the game.)


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: leaf on 07, April, 2015, 05:21:46 AM
I don't see what's wrong with having both the plasma and the prism lines - if the class's purpose is pure casting, it makes sense that they would have access to the strongest lines of two elements. If casting was meant to be a secondary function of the class, then only having one uber spell would make sense.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 07, April, 2015, 12:56:53 PM
I wanna hear about this too. I'd really onky been thinking about the classes in terms of AoE v Single-target, access to buffing or healing Psynergy, and which elemental damage they could do. I never thought about the power level of spells that often (mostly because they aren't visible in the game and I never felt like accessing the wiki every time I booted the game.)
Well, I did take into account the power of spells when making classes. For example no warrior type class has access to the strongest offensive psynergies. IIRC i capped the power spells at 150 for warriors, with the only exception of the ninja, which is among the best at attacking both physically and magically but has crap tier defense (and the lowest HP among all warriors) and has zero support, healing and debuffs. Basically, the very definition of a glass cannon.

Maybe what Rolina meant is that she'd have never given 2 top tier spells to the same class, maybe cause she wanted classes to have a main element and a secondary element... But that's just speculation on my part. Anyway, since this is a very different approach from mine, I'd like to know more.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: JamietheFlameUser on 07, April, 2015, 03:51:41 PM
The way I understand it, Rolina usually gives offensive caster classes one "weak" line, one "mid" line, and one "strong" line. "Weak" lines are stuff like Frost, Quake, and Flare. "Mid" lines are things like Ray. "Strong" lines are of course things like Prism, Plasma, and Gaia. Support casters usually get a "mid-weak" line and a "mid-strong" line, or simply a "weak" and a "mid-strong". I think Growth would be an example of a "mid-weak" line? Not sure. "Mid-strong" would be something like Cool, I think.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 08, April, 2015, 02:50:25 AM
Ok, Cal. I'm in the middle of the Yampi Desert right now. Is there anything in particular you'd like a reaction to or should I just start sounding off?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 08, April, 2015, 04:51:01 AM
Ok, Cal. I'm in the middle of the Yampi Desert right now. Is there anything in particular you'd like a reaction to or should I just start sounding off?
Yes, three things: King Scorpion, Briggs and Sheba's tendencies to go down. From my tests King Scorpion should be "okay" now, Briggs is still strong if fought as soon as you exit the desert (but not as much as in original hard mode) and Sheba likes to faint a lot. Apart from those things, anything like you'd want to report?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 08, April, 2015, 11:59:36 AM
This is incomplete, but it'll give you a general idea of where I'm going with it.  I still have to do a few more tabs to do before v α0.4 is ready for a proper release.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 08, April, 2015, 10:05:21 PM
Alright, then.

Sheba is...frail. This was to be expected, honestly. But after the third time a Momonga and Emu teamed up to one-shot her from full before I took action, I was a bit...unhappy. This was with Sheba in her second stage class with 2  :JupiterStar: djinn. Luckily, the same occurance never happened again and sticking her with both :VenusStar: djinn kept her alive through being surprised by 3 enemies. After I believe 2 levels, both  :JupiterStar: were enough to live. @#$% Emus.

King Scorpion. Opened with Twin Shear. On Sheba. Which she lived so it was all good. Basically, that battle had Felix using the Venus djinn non-stop in order to keep defenses high and Echo off his good attack stat, then Ramses for about 150-ish damage. Jenna was in the Monk class for the extra bulk and was a Volcano and Cure Poison (until Psynergy got scarce. Deadly poison hurts.) Sheba healed nonstop due to the constant threat of Twin Shear, but threw out a Punishment or two if Felix had taken a Shear or the King had defended the turn before. No one died. [I was struck by how nice it was to have Sheba heal so Felix could use djinn and summon. It shifted damage responsibility to Felix from Sheba in the fight, but Sheba is still dealing good damage with Wind Slash in random encounters.]

I haven't fought Briggs yet (going to Garoh and Air's Rock first) but...

The Mimic fight in Kandorean temple was nuts. He's easily stronger than the Chestbeaters. No one died, but it cost so much PP to beat him that I decided to walk back into the Whirlwind cave-courtyard well tunnel to run around and recover PP since most characters were almost out. Was definitely scary for my level 4 party.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 08, April, 2015, 10:24:00 PM
Sheba is...frail. [...] It shifted damage responsibility to Felix from Sheba in the fight, but Sheba is still dealing good damage with Wind Slash in random encounters.]
Ok, everything here is very close to what i feel about it.

Quote
I haven't fought Briggs yet (going to Garoh and Air's Rock first) but...
Ok. Just remember that shop-wise now mikasalla comes before garoh (= better equipment in garoh). If you somehow still have a savefile that allows you to, please try beating brigss right after the desert just for feedback. If you don't, well don't worry too much about it :)

Quote
The Mimic fight in Kandorean temple was nuts. He's easily stronger than the Chestbeaters. No one died, but it cost so much PP to beat him that I decided to walk back into the Whirlwind cave-courtyard well tunnel to run around and recover PP since most characters were almost out. Was definitely scary for my level 4 party.
It's almost identical to the one you once fought in original hard mode. The only difference is that the the chances of using Psy Drain (now 12,5%) and Slash (now 25%) are switched around.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 08, April, 2015, 11:38:40 PM
I'll try and get a file to fight Briggs immediately after the desert, but I'll probably use the Garoh first file (Garoh to rest -> Mikasalla to buy and get djinn -> Air's Rock) to play through the game after that. If that's a problem, just lemme know.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 08, April, 2015, 11:44:03 PM
I'll try and get a file to fight Briggs immediately after the desert, but I'll probably use the Garoh first file (Garoh to rest -> Mikasalla to buy and get djinn -> Air's Rock) to play through the game after that. If that's a problem, just lemme know.
No, not at all. I asked for an additional feedback on a fight with briggs right after the desert cause i always fight him at that time, before mikasalla and anything else. So if you can i'll appreciate it, but if you can't anymore or it would take too much time cause the nearest save file is too much behind... well you shouldn't worry about it.  :)


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 09, April, 2015, 12:06:31 AM
Actually, it looks like my laptop died and I hadn't saved after getting thorough the desert so I'm back at Madra. Looks like making a file to go to Briggs isn't going to be as hard as I thought.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 09, April, 2015, 12:19:45 AM
Actually, it looks like my laptop died and I hadn't saved after getting thorough the desert so I'm back at Madra. Looks like making a file to go to Briggs isn't going to be as hard as I thought.
That looks more like "forced" than "not hard".


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 10, April, 2015, 03:17:13 PM
Briggs after Yampi Desert. You can't do it. I've fought this battle a dozen different ways now and the team just doesn't have the stats to pull it off. Sheba or Jenna die every time. Neither of those two can survive attacks from Briggs after an Echo Cut from one of the sailors or, when the Briggs and the sailors split targets to the casters, you can't heal fast enough. Briggs is also pretty fast and strong. Even with multiple Irons and defense with the best items, they just can't survive. Because there's 3 enemies and not just one, you couldn't even Herb spam your way through.

I'm headed to Mikasalla now on the Yampi -> Garoh -> Mika -> Air's file.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 10, April, 2015, 03:21:58 PM
Hmmm... I didn't think it'd be this hard... Somehow I always manage, after a few difficulties, to win at L11 without having anyone die, so I thought i finally did it. Will have to test more. Thank you very much, it was really useful.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 10, April, 2015, 04:04:23 PM
After leaving Yampi Desert, my team was level 10. If it really is the difference of just a few random battles, then I guess I was just underleveled.

I still think I'd just be squeaking by, though.

On a different note, is the team dialogue before going into Garoh supposed to feel so awkward? It just doesn't seem to flow. I ask because I think you'd been checking names of weapons and spells against the Japanese, so I was wondering if this instance of dialogue got changed in translation.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 10, April, 2015, 04:38:06 PM
On a different note, is the team dialogue before going into Garoh supposed to feel so awkward? It just doesn't seem to flow. I ask because I think you'd been checking names of weapons and spells against the Japanese, so I was wondering if this instance of dialogue got changed in translation.
Nope, I didn't change a single line of dialogue in any game cause I built this mod porting the changes from my edited italian rom (never played with the english game) so I'm really clueless about english dialogue. Well, with the exception of the notorious "Felix must unlock the power"...


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 10, April, 2015, 06:55:51 PM
Oh, I didn't think you had edited the dialogue. I was just wondering if the way that the conversation played out in Japanese was the same as in English.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 10, April, 2015, 07:01:16 PM
Oh, I didn't think you had edited the dialogue. I was just wondering if the way that the conversation played out in Japanese was the same as in English.
Like I said, I have no way of knowing that cause i never played neither the english game nor the japanese one.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 13, April, 2015, 02:47:49 AM
Ok, I've scaled Air's Rock, beaten Briggs and co, and am headed back to Madra. I also learned a few things that may help toughen up this part of the game, because it went from WTF to cakewalk way too quickly.

First things first, positives. Storm Brand nerf, Fujin Shield nerf (they really originally gave it 50 :JupiterStar: RES?), Clarity Circlet (kinda on the fence with this, but it was kind of a non-factor compared to other problems I faced).

Ixion Mail needs tweaked again. I think it's too weak compared to the Psynergy Mail, considering the low number of enemies using powerful elemental attacks. Adept's Clothes are still kind of bland without any extra effect.


Things I feel I learned:

   1. You are obviously supposed to go to Alhafra before continuing south to Garoh and Air's Rock, no matter how nice getting levels before fighting Briggs seems.

All of the dialogue in Alhafra assumes you haven't been south to Garoh yet; I really had forgotten exactly how much it seems to throw the narrative of most NPCs off when you go south first. If there were any way to actually force the party to go north before heading south, I'd suggest it in a heartbeat.

  
   2. The monsters on Air's Rock are not hard enough compared to the monsters in Yampi Desert or compared to the equivalent monsters in TBS.

The levels you gain getting through the Yampi Desert and just getting to Air's Rock nullify almost any challenge they could have presented. I thought this was extremely odd, given how I felt the monsters in the first game were a non-trivial threat to the party for the entire game. I think I may have come up with a few reasons why Air's Rock seems to fall apart.

   2a. Monsters are do not show up in large groups as often.

In The Broken Seal, monsters would often show up in large enough groups that my strongest AoE psynergy could only down those in the middle and those on the periphery would survive into the second round, unleashing high damage spells on my party. I'm positive that fewer monsters show up in fights in Air's Rock and their abilities are weaker besides. In TBS, having threatening enemies would force me to use expensive psynergy downing them in order to avoid serious harm to my team, especially early, before the team got Mia. In TLA, monsters often are not surviving into the second round of combat or do not unleash their attacks in the first place (from being outsped). This leads me to my second point...

   2b. Monsters in TLA in Air's Rock are too slow.

By the time my team had reached the top of Air's Rock in order to move into the interior, I already knew I was too strong for this to be a challenge. This was because my strongest AoE psynergy would eliminate an opposing enemy force before they even had the chance to attack. Even Felix would be able to get a Thorn or Cutting Edge off before the opposing enemies would attack. Checking the bestiary of Air's Rock both inside and outside (http://goldensun.wikia.com/wiki/Air%27s_Rock#Enemies) shows not a single enemy who has an AGI of above 50. Even with the Hard Mode Scaling, compared to the enemies in Fuchin Falls Cave (http://goldensun.wikia.com/wiki/Fuchin_Falls_Cave#Enemies) and Mogall Forest (http://goldensun.wikia.com/wiki/Mogall_Forest#Enemies), the enemies in Air's Rock's interior don't stack up, getting completely outstripped by the time Altin Peak (http://goldensun.wikia.com/wiki/Altin_Peak#Enemies) comes around. These monsters need big time buffs in order to compensate for not appearing in large groups or it may be the issue that there's no one single 'big threat' monster like the Ape in TLA.

   2c. Sheba's healing is too cheap, PP-wise.

Without enemies being a threat to actually injure my party, even if they ambush me, Sheba's healing doesn't cost enough for how much it heals. I was in a position to spend the 12 PP out side of any battle I took damage from to heal to full and never put a dent in Sheba's PP pool because she often doesn't even need to cast to defeat the enemies we run into. Damage never sticks because healing is so cheap and Felix having access to the Swordsman class actually worsens this problem. I could actually only heal with Felix (since he was almost never casting in battle) and not even need to burden Sheba. Or, my actual tactic, split the post-battle heals and simply walk off the PP strain.

I entered the Yampi Desert around level 8 and I'm currently sitting at level 14 entering Madra for the second time. For equivalence, in TBS, level 8 through 14 would have gotten me from Kolima to midway though Altin Peak. Fighting some monsters in Gondowan Cliffs tells me that their AGI is higher than the numbers on the wiki, so if you could fill me in on the stat changes to some monsters, that would help a ton.

Lemme know what you think and I'll answer any questions.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 14, April, 2015, 12:52:54 PM
Ixion Mail needs tweaked again. I think it's too weak compared to the Psynergy Mail, considering the low number of enemies using powerful elemental attacks.

[...]

   1. You are obviously supposed to go to Alhafra before continuing south to Garoh and Air's Rock, no matter how nice getting levels before fighting Briggs seems.
Well, the second sentence is basically the answer to the first one. You are supposed to go to Alhafra before mikasalla, so the ixion mail must have a defense value higher than leather armor but lower than the psy mail.
   
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   2. The monsters on Air's Rock are not hard enough compared to the monsters in Yampi Desert or compared to the equivalent monsters in TBS.

   2b. Monsters in TLA in Air's Rock are too slow.

   2c. Sheba's healing is too cheap, PP-wise.
2 and 2b are both true. The problem is that the monster in air's rock are for the most part the same that you've already fought in the yampi desert, so there's no helping that unless I change the random encounters.
The boon series is fine PP wise cause i placed it exactly in between the cure and ply one. Which means that if boon were cheap, the same would be true for the other two, and I don't think that it is the case. So, IMHO, you think 2c for 2 reasons: the first is that is derived directly from 2 and 2b (you don't need to heal that much because enemies are weak), the second is that Sheba is the character with the highest maxPP in the entire game, and you can't compare her healing capabilities with Isaac's, whom has around half to 60% or her maxPP.

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I entered the Yampi Desert around level 8 and I'm currently sitting at level 14 entering Madra for the second time. For equivalence, in TBS, level 8 through 14 would have gotten me from Kolima to midway though Altin Peak. Fighting some monsters in Gondowan Cliffs tells me that their AGI is higher than the numbers on the wiki, so if you could fill me in on the stat changes to some monsters, that would help a ton.
Leveling in TLA is the same as it was in the original game, which is faster than in GS. Also, i learned myself while hacking that comparing monsters at the same level in GS and TLA is a mistake. In TLA you start 3 levels higher than GS and this influences the game until the reunion, because for all this time enemies in TLA are weaker than those in GS at the same level, BUT you also have worse equipment cause in GS at level 4 you're at Vault not Vale. If you number the towns in GS and TLA in the order you can access their shops, you'll see that those with the same number also sell identical items for a large portion of the game.
Agility is 25% higher for every enemy, in both games.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 14, April, 2015, 01:59:49 PM
You have killed my complaints again with additional research. I need to remind myself that you put more time into making and balancing this than I have playing it. I apologize.

Getting the Ixion Mail location mixed up was a stupid mistake on my part, since I came from Garoh.

I've finished Gondowan Cliffs, Kibombo, the Gabombo Statue, and Gondowan in general, but not Gabomba Catacombs yet. Was quite difficult compared to Air's Rock; Mad Demons moving twice led to some tense moments. Sheba's frail, but not overly so; I probably got lucky that she didn't fall a few times following a Vital Moon.

Staff of Anubis ate a big ATK nerf, but I think the +MaxPP and :VenusStar: PWR should make up for it. Grabbed it through the normal course of going through the statue, no grinding needed.

Piers' psynergies fit his theme of water well.



Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 14, April, 2015, 02:24:12 PM
You have killed my complaints again with additional research. I need to remind myself that you put more time into making and balancing this than I have playing it. I apologize.
No need to apologize at all, we're just two people exchanging opinions over a mod. Actually, maybe I should be the one to do so if my reply seemed too brutal. And if you need to stress out some of the parts i cut in your reply, please do so. :)

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Staff of Anubis ate a big ATK nerf, but I think the +MaxPP and :VenusStar: PWR should make up for it. Grabbed it through the normal course of going through the statue, no grinding needed.
Well, what i said for ixion mail is true for the main stat of every item (atk for wpns and def for defensive gear). While i was modding them, the only thing that mattered to me was the point where you could gain the item. The Frost Wand is available only after you complete the statue, which means that the staff of anubis must have a lower attack than that the frost wand. This is the trend i followed for every weapon and armor. Once i started thinking this way i completely forgot about original stats cause they became irrelevant. The little power bonus was added because: A) not adding it to the only venus-unleashing staff would have been a waste IMHO, and B) it can incentivize a bit trying venus mages, a rarity in both games, like Jenna's Miko class, that i like A LOT :P (even though that class shines the most later in the game and is quite weak early, just like the Student class series).


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 17, April, 2015, 02:26:33 AM
Every time I mention something and get it corrected, it just reminds me I missed something you saw or failed to make a pattern connection that you did. It's just a "damn, how'd I miss that?" kinda thing. You aren't brutal, trust me.

Since I've gotten the ToMegaThericon/ToMeGatherIcon/Necronomicon and am standing in Yallam, I'd like to know how you planned the player to progress in gathering the trident pieces and sailing the Eastern Sea. I always end up bouncing all over the place and I know that there is some level of linearity based on the utility psynergy gained from the Elemental rocks and Tundaria Tower. I want to know when you slot the Avimander battle in between the various dungeons.



Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 17, April, 2015, 07:41:44 AM
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ToMegaThericon/ToMeGatherIcon/Necronomicon
Lol at the joke. Actually I wonder why they added that extra 'C' in addition to changing a word into a completely different one...

Well... I think you're supposed to bounce all over the place at that point of the game, but if there's an order (from enemies' levels and strength of equipment found) then that's:

Yallam -> Shrine of the Sea God -> Taopo Swamp -> Apojii -> Aqua Rock -> Izumo -> Gaia Rock -> Izumo Ruins -> Ankhol Ruins -> Tundaria Tower -> Champa (Avimander)


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 17, April, 2015, 10:27:06 PM
The addition of the C actually makes it a nice triple spelling entendre and still harkens back to Lovecraft. The Golden Sun wiki does a good job explaining the wordplay in the item.

I'll run that route then. Should be fun.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 17, April, 2015, 11:24:22 PM
The addition of the C actually makes it a nice triple spelling entendre and still harkens back to Lovecraft. The Golden Sun wiki does a good job explaining the wordplay in the item.
The only references i know are the literal ones... Necronomicon is the grimoire (and that's how the item is called in the japanese version, WAY more fitting), while tomegatherICOn is an allusion to "To Mega TherIOn" (greek for the great beast), the book of revelation in the Christian Bible... hence my "why the additional C"? Just for the multiple spelling entendre?

Another big localization mystery is the izumo quest. EVERYTHING in Izumo is a tribute to (read carbon copy of) the legend of Susanoo, the shintoist god son of Izanagi, and brother to Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi.

In the legend, Susanoo was cast down to earth in the region called Izumo, where he found out that a young lady named Kushinada was about to be offered as sacrifice to the great serpent Yamata no Orochi. He went, made the beast drunk with sake, slew it and then found a sword inside its tail, the renown "Ama no Murakumo no Tsurugi" (AKA Kusanagi no Tsurugi). Susanoo and Kushinada marry and their firstborn son Takeru becomes the progenitor of the Japanese royal family. Sounds pretty familiar...

Now, why they changed "Amanokumo" (obviously short for ama no murakumo) to Cloud Brand, "Orochi" to Serpent, and Sake to Dragonsbane while keeping everything else the same, from the name of the country to the name of the couple's firstborn son, is really beyond me. BTW, Susa is Susa even in the japanese version. Rumors say the name was shortened cause he's no god.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 18, April, 2015, 03:31:45 AM
Well, changing sake to dragonsbane gets around ERSB censors; I'm fairly certain references to alcohol at all get you a T rating no matter what.

The Tomegathericon thing is really only that way for the wordplay. To Me Gather Icon, the ancient Greek reference, and Lovecraft; hell, they actually get more milage out of their translation trickery than the Japanese get for their boring literal Lovecraft reference.

It was fun to learn about the legend of Susanoo well after playing TLA. At first you're like "this seems familiar..." then you just appreciate how they managed to use it in the game.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Exore The Mighty on 19, April, 2015, 09:30:51 PM
Okay, I'm a first time poster here, but I wanted you to know that I'm almost done with the game, and I really liked the hack overall.  I've collected every item except for the Herculean Axe (and I have 2 orihalcums in my inventory to go get it), used all the rng stuff to get everyone the best stuff and so on.  Overall, I think what I really like is that the creatures are difficult all through out the game, with some nice reprieve areas like the eastern sea, and I especially like the change to damage calculation of psynergy.  I'm basically sitting on a lvl 47 Sheba right now with like 215 Wind power, who regularly deals about 450 damage to her main target with tempest.  That compared to my standard unleash-oriented Felix who does about the same with Armageddon (your changed-name Sol Blade unleash).

About the equipment: the cursed items are amazing.  I have all of them attached to Isaac, so that Acheron's Grief can get his bonus Venus damage, so that both him and Felix are forces to be reckoned with, though Isaac is more for Djinn unleashes than weapon.  I also like what you did with berserk band (now berserk circlet), so I have 2 of those, and 2 psychic circlets for the pp regen on my healers.  I like the general variety, and the toss-up between giving the healers more elemental power for stronger healing, or more pp regeneration for long drawn-out battles.  I'm digging the Caladbolg, but I feel like it's only really there for flavor, since at this point in the game, Piers unleashing with that weapon isn't as reliable strategically as using Djinn, then getting the added bonus of summon potential.

I went ahead and fought the superbosses to get each summon sequence.  I'm about to fight Dullahan, but I did a round with him to see if summon rushing still works, and... I don't think it does.  I'll have to run through a couple more play-tests before I know for sure, but my party is only lvl 47, lvl 43 for the first-gen party.  I didn't grind much level-wise, as I wanted to get all the equipment first, to map out strategies for using it all.  I feel like, with the changes to how Felix's party operates, the first-gen party is... lacking.  Maybe their single-target, or small multi-target spells are stronger?  Whatever the case, whenever I switch out to them, I'm always disappointed, and keep wishing Ivan was as good as Sheba, or Isaac as good as Felix.  Felix and crew's damage output just seems much more reliable.  One complaint about Jenna, though, and that's Searing Beam!  I didn't get it until lvl 46, so there was like a 20 level gap where she didn't get any better at attack psynergy, other than the equipment/level increases in her max psynergy!  She was relegated to a healer only for that period of time, which was frustrating when I fought Sentinel, and he wipes out her healing ability by putting all those djinn on standby.  I'm not sure if you intend us to have to mess around with djinn classes in order to fight stuff, but that was annoying when I toured each of the areas after getting teleport, and got my butt handed to me constantly in part due to Jenna's lack of damage.

I won't ask for tips on Dullahan, since part of the fun is figuring out what works, but after I beat him, I'd like to know what your thoughts were when you were changing him up.  Also, the Doom Dragon seems... quite a bit harder now.  I might just grind to mid-50s before i can beat either boss.  I know in GS1 I beat Deadbeard in a long, very very long battle at lvl 30 or so on your hack, so that kind of thinking probably has some weight.

Really quick last bit: there might be a glitch in the shops when dealing with the Iris robe.  I sold it in Prox, wondering if I should just use the mercury-enhancing equipment on Mia (Triton's Ward?), but then wanted  to buy it back, and it wasn't showing up.  It did show up in other shops that had separate armor and weapons, and I was able to buy it back, but that might be something to look into.  Again, overall I've really, really enjoyed what I've seen.  The game is more challenging and strategic with the battles than it was originally, so now I get to use my noggin, rather than just beating stuff up!   


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 19, April, 2015, 10:35:59 PM
First and foremost, thank you very much for trying my mod.

Now...

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I feel like, with the changes to how Felix's party operates, the first-gen party is... lacking.  Maybe their single-target, or small multi-target spells are stronger?  Whatever the case, whenever I switch out to them, I'm always disappointed, and keep wishing Ivan was as good as Sheba, or Isaac as good as Felix.  Felix and crew's damage output just seems much more reliable.  One complaint about Jenna, though, and that's Searing Beam!  I didn't get it until lvl 46, so there was like a 20 level gap where she didn't get any better at attack psynergy, other than the equipment/level increases in her max psynergy!
Probably you're talking about the Fume and Judgement Psynergy series, and I can agree with you seeing sheba stronger than ivan... but i can't see how felix is so much better than isaac when the latter heals, revives and has stronger psynergies (Gaia). Jenna can't be helped. the learning level cares ONLY about the strength/range of the psynergy. If there's a gap in power, there's a gap in levels.

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I'm not sure if you intend us to have to mess around with djinn classes in order to fight stuff
The original developers wanted us to mess around with djinn classes. The default classes are good at doing only one thing: Summon Rushing. With that feature heavily nerfed, i can't fathom why anyone would want to stick to the default classes. Why unleash armageddon with a Slayer's 150% Atk multiplier when the Chaos Lord has a whopping 170%? Why use a Phalanx for tanking when the paladin exists? or a Sorcerer for support when you have access to the Divine Mage? Or an Angel for healing when the pure mage is a few djinn away?

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Really quick last bit: there might be a glitch in the shops when dealing with the Iris robe.  I sold it in Prox, wondering if I should just use the mercury-enhancing equipment on Mia (Triton's Ward?), but then wanted  to buy it back, and it wasn't showing up.  It did show up in other shops that had separate armor and weapons, and I was able to buy it back, but that might be something to look into.
I'll certainly check this one out, but i need a save file of a game very close to Prox but that hasn't reached it yet. Something around Loho or right after Magma Rock for example.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 21, April, 2015, 04:28:22 AM
I really like the new Captain's Axe. This is kind of what I hoped the Blessed Mace would become, but I also understand the necessity of having diversity in weapon usage.

I just finished Aqua Rock and I'm happy with the Eastern Sea in general. Running the dungeons in a specified, gradual order really keeps the enemies strong but not overbearing.

After reading the earlier post, I'm excited for the surprises that the superbosses will have, though seeing that Djinn Blast and Djinn Storm still exist strikes fear in my heart. @#$% those moves; they are pure evil.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 21, April, 2015, 09:45:03 AM
I really like the new Captain's Axe. This is kind of what I hoped the Blessed Mace would become, but I also understand the necessity of having diversity in weapon usage.
Just a little clarification. It's not like i kept the mace like it was for the sake of diversity, it's the other way around: the axe that had to be tweaked no matter what. As per weapon categories, axes are the most offense-oriented, so much that they lower your defense. One with zero offensive abilities and that instead INCREASES defense... well... seemed a bit contradictory.

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I just finished Aqua Rock and I'm happy with the Eastern Sea in general. Running the dungeons in a specified, gradual order really keeps the enemies strong but not overbearing.
Also remember that this is were the attack nerf to weapons start taking effect: by the end of the E.Sea the weapons you're wielding have around -10 ATK when compared to the original game... and due to the weapons categories system the title of strongest E.Sea weapon went from Lightning Sword to Tartarus Axe.

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After reading the earlier post, I'm excited for the surprises that the superbosses will have, though seeing that Djinn Blast and Djinn Storm still exist strikes fear in my heart. @#$% those moves; they are pure evil.
After reading your post, I started checking the superbosses to see if everything was fine. Well, Sentinel wasn't so expect v1.22 soon v1.22 is up. :) Djinn Storm is still there, as evil as ever!!


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 22, April, 2015, 12:28:11 AM
Regardless of your intentions and my interpretation of them, I like the new Captain's Axe.

V1.22 has tweaks on some of the superbosses, but doesn't go into details. Are you just being cagey, or is more info forthcoming?

Just got the Herbed Shirt, cut content item. I like what it is now. Good alteration there, considering how strong the original Herbed Shirt was (not at all). Also, no Otafuku Mask changes. Not sure what you would do to it anyway.

Actually, there's a question I really, really wanted to ask. You're using some of Erik's work for this patch, yes? Did you happen to keep Dullahan's drop item?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: JamietheFlameUser on 22, April, 2015, 02:32:44 AM
Logically the base classes should also be the best at mono-element Psynergy spam as they get the highest Elemental Power in their element. So keeping Sheba in her base class, for example, should be to the player's benefit to a certain extent.

As for the issue of a "massive 20 level gap with no new offensive spells", that's why Rolina assigns damaging Psynergy series the way she does when making classes. It's to ensure that you always have a "current" spell on hand. Also, it's perfectly okay for different classes to be better at different things in regards to status spells etc, so if your spells aren't fitting in where they should and you end up with a massive gap in learn levels you can in fact shuffle things around a bit.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 22, April, 2015, 06:24:05 AM
V1.22 has tweaks on some of the superbosses, but doesn't go into details. Are you just being cagey, or is more info forthcoming?
I don't want to ruin the surprise for those who like it, and if someone actually wanted to know, all he/she has to do is to open the ROM with the editor. I usually go into details only when it would be hard to see the difference within the editor.

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Actually, there's a question I really, really wanted to ask. You're using some of Erik's work for this patch, yes? Did you happen to keep Dullahan's drop item?
Yes, the Mind Ribbon is there.

Logically the base classes should also be the best at mono-element Psynergy spam as they get the highest Elemental Power in their element. So keeping Sheba in her base class, for example, should be to the player's benefit to a certain extent.
You know, this is something I feared as well when i raised the elemental caps to 255 but the PP multiplier patch seems to perform better than i expected in compensating.

Just tested against a Talon Runner (25 JRes) with Sheba at L55: Fateweaver Sheba deals around 659 damage with Scourge (184 JPower, 819 HP, 546 PP, 330 Def, 21 Luck), while Prophet Sheba deals 713 with it (229 JPower, 694 HP, 498 PP, 300 Def, 27 Luck). Mind that 25 Res is the absolute lowest in the whole game and Scourge is the second strongest spell with a base power of 240 (among all elements. Strongest is Call Dullahan, BP 250), so these extra 54 damage are the maximum you can hope to achieve among any spell and against any enemy. Factor in the enormous HP loss, and all the versatility other classes offer (in the case above you trade Dull and Tempest for Ply, Impact, Guard, Break and Prism) and you'll see it's just not worth it.


As a side note i uploaded v1.22a.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: leaf on 22, April, 2015, 06:22:12 PM
Someone here mentioned that they don't think summon rushing is viable against dullahan anymore. Can someone send me a save from just before that fight? I'll bet it's still possible, but requires some changes in strategy.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 22, April, 2015, 07:30:59 PM
Someone here mentioned that they don't think summon rushing is viable against dullahan anymore. Can someone send me a save from just before that fight? I'll bet it's still possible, but requires some changes in strategy.
HERE (http://"https://www.dropbox.com/s/np3joodabu25wlm/GSTLA%20The%20Balance%20Age%20v1.22.sav?dl=0")'s my savefile. Let me know if it still works, and by which margin... I've already though of how to nerf it again should the situation require it. Thanks Leaf.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 23, April, 2015, 12:37:27 AM
Ok, the top of the download page says 1.22a, but the .ips file just says v1.22.ips. Is this correct?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 23, April, 2015, 12:42:43 AM
Ok, the top of the download page says 1.22a, but the .ips file just says v1.22.ips. Is this correct?
Yes, sorry i forgot to rename the file. I'll upload the same file again with the correct name.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 23, April, 2015, 01:13:05 AM
Logically the base classes should also be the best at mono-element Psynergy spam as they get the highest Elemental Power in their element. So keeping Sheba in her base class, for example, should be to the player's benefit to a certain extent.

As for the issue of a "massive 20 level gap with no new offensive spells", that's why Rolina assigns damaging Psynergy series the way she does when making classes. It's to ensure that you always have a "current" spell on hand. Also, it's perfectly okay for different classes to be better at different things in regards to status spells etc, so if your spells aren't fitting in where they should and you end up with a massive gap in learn levels you can in fact shuffle things around a bit.
Yup.  Classes in my system require one Basic, one Advanced, and one Expert level skill line.  You can substitute the advanced or expert lines for support or healing if you want, but you can't double up.  Essentially, every time in GS where you'd have both Prism and Plasma, or both Pyroclasm and Plasma, I'd substitute one of the spell lines for a spell line one categorical tier lower (ex:  Substitute Prism for Ice, or Pyroclasm for Fire).  That way, you have some mid-game offense for your offensive classes.  Supporters and Controllers wanted those healing and ailment spells instead anyway.

@Spell analysis/Scourge:  ...I don't think base classes should be considered "bad".  Rather, each and every class should be made as viable as it can.  The reason that dual- and tri- element classes have higher stats is to balance their lack of elemental power and specialization.  It shouldn't be the way GS has it, though - in vanilla, stats mean everything because attack and defense are all that matter.  The goal for balancing classes in a modifed GS is to find that sweet-spot between specialization, versatility, and statistical strength.

In addition, consider what each class' role in combat is.  Is this a damage dealer?  A tank?  A battlefield control class?  A healer?  A jack of all trades?  How does it compare and differentiate itself from others of its kind?  Isaac's version of an Attacker should look different than Felix's version.  Personally, my take is that Isaac is the Paladin-type, having healing and support as backup, while Felix is the dark knight type, having battlefield control such as the haunt/curse/condemn combo instead.  How you choose to balance it is up to you, but no class should ever be consider just plain "better" than any other, unless you're talking about in specific situations.  If one class is just better, then some tweaking needs to happen to make both options viable.


Also, considering base classes as "Summon classes" doesn't work - there exists people like me who Megaera spam at battle start to get a quick boost in power.  Multi-element summons are best used by alt-class teams, so it benefits me to use dual-element classes, and even more to use tri-element classes.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: JamietheFlameUser on 23, April, 2015, 01:31:56 AM
V1.22 has tweaks on some of the superbosses, but doesn't go into details. Are you just being cagey, or is more info forthcoming?
I don't want to ruin the surprise for those who like it, and if someone actually wanted to know, all he/she has to do is to open the ROM with the editor. I usually go into details only when it would be hard to see the difference within the editor.

Quote
Actually, there's a question I really, really wanted to ask. You're using some of Erik's work for this patch, yes? Did you happen to keep Dullahan's drop item?
Yes, the Mind Ribbon is there.

Logically the base classes should also be the best at mono-element Psynergy spam as they get the highest Elemental Power in their element. So keeping Sheba in her base class, for example, should be to the player's benefit to a certain extent.
You know, this is something I feared as well when i raised the elemental caps to 255 but the PP multiplier patch seems to perform better than i expected in compensating.

Just tested against a Talon Runner (25 JRes) with Sheba at L55: Fateweaver Sheba deals around 659 damage with Scourge (184 JPower, 819 HP, 546 PP, 330 Def, 21 Luck), while Prophet Sheba deals 713 with it (229 JPower, 694 HP, 498 PP, 300 Def, 27 Luck). Mind that 25 Res is the absolute lowest in the whole game and Scourge is the second strongest spell with a base power of 240 (among all elements. Strongest is Call Dullahan, BP 250), so these extra 54 damage are the maximum you can hope to achieve among any spell and against any enemy. Factor in the enormous HP loss, and all the versatility other classes offer (in the case above you trade Dull and Tempest for Ply, Impact, Guard, Break and Prism) and you'll see it's just not worth it.


As a side note i uploaded v1.22a.

Agreeing with Rolina that base classes should not be inherently "bad". After all, the base class represents the fighting style of the character with no outside influence and as such, they should be a viable option.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 23, April, 2015, 02:33:47 AM
In the originals, they weren't really bad at all - just often overshadowed.  Hell, Angel and Squire lines are considered among the best, not quite Wizard and Ninja good, but up there.  In fact, when you start getting close to the Attack Cap, it's actually recommended Felix/Isaac switch back to the Squire line specifically so that they can start taking advantage of the higher venus power for the Sol Blade.  It allows the class to outdamage the ninja at top tier play.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: leaf on 23, April, 2015, 05:06:04 AM
Okay, just got done testing summon rush strats against dully. First off, it isn't easy. Second off, with the proper strategy, it's pretty damn easy. Just... I wouldn't expect someone who's blindly summon rushing to succeed. Dully simply does too much damage to approach without an actual strategy. It took me a few iterations to get something that works consistently here, and even then there's still a point of failure if dully decides to lead with djinn storm.

Core party is isaac, sheba, ivan. Fourth is jenna. Fifth is anyone (I use piers here). Sixth is mia.
Place djinn in standby in the order of jenna -> core -> others. Only vine/mud, ground, petra, flash, kite, lull, and flash remain set. Easiest way is to have jenna as party lead and use the standby all command.

Jenna@mud, 4 mars, 4 jupiter
Isaac@ground, 8 mars
Sheba@kite, 1 venus, 1 mars, 6 jupiter
Ivan@petra, flash, lull, 5 jupiter, 1 mercury
Piers@7 venus, 1 mars, 1 mercury
Mia@6 mercury, 3 venus

The mercury djinn on ivan and piers are both completely optional, as are two of the six on mia. Everyone's items are optimized for epow of the elements they'll be using. Isaac gets +venus, sheba and ivan get +jupiter, jenna +mars, and mia +mercury. This strategy would still work even without epow boosting equipment, but might take an extra turn (and the boreas summon would no longer be optional).

T1: Vine/Mud (Jenna), Ground (Isaac), Kite with target Ivan (Sheba), Flash (Ivan)
T2: Meteor (Jenna), Haures (Isaac), Catastrophe 1 (Sheba), Petra+Lull (Ivan) - 15 djinn, Jenna's djinn fully used.
T3: Change Jenna for Piers. X (Piers), Charon (Isaac), Catastrophe 2 (Sheba), Catastrophe 3 (Ivan) - 26 djinn, 41 total.
T4: Change someone for Mia. Azul (Mia), X, X, X - 7 djinn, 48 total (optionally 52 if you summon boreas with one of the X's)

52 djinn = 104% hp = dead dully. The base damages of the summons and epow of the chars is enough that azul finishes without the help of boreas, though. It doesn't matter what X is, as long as it doesn't interfere with any of the other summons.

Has only one point of failure, on T1: If dully does impact -> djinn storm, you have to reset. Otherwise, it's flawless. His enfeeble -> dark collide opener is pretty much irrelevant when you have flash up. After that, dully doesn't get to attack until T3, by which point you've already unloaded your everything on him. No matter what he does at this point, you can bring in mia on T4 to finish him with azul.

If, in theory, dully were still fast enough to outspeed your party after using mud/vine, ground could be replaced by zephyr/coal on T1, ensuring the T2/T3 summons are successful in exchange for a small T1 consistency drop. In this case, you would set shade on someone in the second party (either mia, felix, or garet), since you need to make sure you're able to get off the last killing summon before dully kills everyone.

Feel free to test the strat yourself using the included save. It's the second file.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 23, April, 2015, 12:28:16 PM
Don't get me wrong it's not like i completely despise them, but the way they are now they are extremely underwhelming late-game, because there are better options. With the casting advantage practically gone due to the patch, the selling points of mono elemental classes are: better at unleashing djinn, stronger summoning (cause summon rushing is not everything, and i'm going to outright remove that possibility against the 4 superbosses), and resilience to set/recovery djinn (not so much when compared to dual element classes but tri-elemental classes are much harder to manage when facing djinn blast/storm/stun).

As they are now i see them as beginner classes. Extremely good early game but they start losing their appeal once you get around 4-5 djinn per pg, to become almost useless when everyone has 9 djinn.

So here's my suggestion: give mono elemental classes their much needed 6th tier at 9 djinn: this will give them better stats (avg on my class chart would be around 138/139, right below item classes), and they'll regain their casting advantage thanks to the higher PP. What do you think?

@Leaf: thanks for testing. My solution to remove summon rushing against those 4 is to lower the cap of HP% damage to something like 10000. This alone should make summon rushing Dullahan and Sentinel outright impossible and a one-way ticket to hell against Valukar/Balrog. The only doubt is star magician, who has lower HP than the other 3.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: leaf on 23, April, 2015, 06:29:27 PM
Star magician is harder to summon rush to begin with because you have to eliminate the guardian balls. Outside of petra, there aren't any good options for making sure it doesn't guard aura, so if SM summons any more guardian balls after the first, you have to stop your rush to take them out.

Limiting the hp% cap is an interesting idea. I would have just nerfed the hp% of multielemental summons, personally. Keep all sub-5 djinn multielemental summons the same, bring eclipse/haures down to 9% (from 10%), and anything higher than eclipse/haures down to 1.5% per djinni. That way catastrophe is only 12% instead of 16%, charon is 15% instead of 20%, and azul is 10.5% instead of 14%. With those nerfs, the strat I used would lose 19.5% max hp damage, introducing multiple new points of failure at the end. This is one of those times when formulas are great and useful, but you have to be willing to break them sometimes for the sake of better design.

If you hard cap the hp% bonus, you could end up with weird situations where a basic lv3 summon does about the same damage as any higher level summon, when multielemental summons are the main culprit behind easy summon rushes. This feels bad for the player, and is probably best off avoided.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 23, April, 2015, 07:09:15 PM
Quote
Star magician is harder to summon rush to begin with because you have to eliminate the guardian balls. Outside of petra, there aren't any good options for making sure it doesn't guard aura, so if SM summons any more guardian balls after the first, you have to stop your rush to take them out.
Exactly what i thought. Thanks.

Quote
If you hard cap the hp% bonus, you could end up with weird situations where a basic lv3 summon does about the same damage as any higher level summon, when multielemental summons are the main culprit behind easy summon rushes. This feels bad for the player, and is probably best off avoided.
While your approach is interesting as well, I think you misunderstood me. What i wanted to cap is the HP from which HP% damage is calculated to something like 10000. This way every enemy that has more HP than the cap (superbosses) is treated as having a lower number of HP for the sake of calculating HP% damage.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: leaf on 23, April, 2015, 07:56:25 PM
Oh, I see what you mean. I misread. So instead of 16k as dully's hp, it would use 10k, and any others bosses with more than 10k health would also be treated as having 10k for the purposes of summoning. Hm, that could work. That might even be enough to completely neuter summon rushing against dully. You would have to make extremely optimal use of all your djinn, and even then, the damage might not be quite enough. It would be sad to see it completely quashed, because while it may be an overbearing strategy, it is *still* a strategy, and one that takes planning to make work. I think the lowest you could set it and still have summon rushing be viable against dully *at all* is 12k.

Oh yeah, and I was wondering, what hp% did you set daedalus and missile to? You can't view hp% damage in the editor afaik.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 23, April, 2015, 08:14:57 PM
Oh, I see what you mean. I misread. So instead of 16k as dully's hp, it would use 10k, and any others bosses with more than 10k health would also be treated as having 10k for the purposes of summoning. Hm, that could work. That might even be enough to completely neuter summon rushing against dully. You would have to make extremely optimal use of all your djinn, and even then, the damage might not be quite enough. It would be sad to see it completely quashed, because while it may be an overbearing strategy, it is *still* a strategy, and one that takes planning to make work. I think the lowest you could set it and still have summon rushing be viable against dully *at all* is 12k.

Oh yeah, and I was wondering, what hp% did you set daedalus and missile to? You can't view hp% damage in the editor afaik.
Thanks I'll ponder. Daedalus is 5% the first attack and 10% the missile.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: MaxiPower on 23, April, 2015, 09:47:12 PM
Is this the hack with changes to dialogue and extra lore included?



Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 23, April, 2015, 09:53:43 PM
Is this the hack with changes to dialogue and extra lore included?
Nope. Gameplay changes only.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 23, April, 2015, 10:10:53 PM
Don't get me wrong it's not like i completely despise them, but the way they are now they are extremely underwhelming late-game, because there are better options. With the casting advantage practically gone due to the patch, the selling points of mono elemental classes are: better at unleashing djinn, stronger summoning (cause summon rushing is not everything, and i'm going to outright remove that possibility against the 4 superbosses), and resilience to set/recovery djinn (not so much when compared to dual element classes but tri-elemental classes are much harder to manage when facing djinn blast/storm/stun).

As they are now i see them as beginner classes. Extremely good early game but they start losing their appeal once you get around 4-5 djinn per pg, to become almost useless when everyone has 9 djinn.

So here's my suggestion: give mono elemental classes their much needed 6th tier at 9 djinn: this will give them better stats (avg on my class chart would be around 138/139, right below item classes), and they'll regain their casting advantage thanks to the higher PP. What do you think?
I think there's a few problems here.

First - the fact that base classes start to loose hold as the game progresses
Second - the fact that alt classes take until midgame to pick up steam
Third - the fact that alt classes start to outshine base classes at late game.

Giving base classes an extra tier isn't going to solve the problem.  That's like taking allergy meds to fight the flu - you're combating the symptoms, not the problem itself.  You'll want to tweak classes all around here.  Make the learning of spells staggered a bit better in alt classes so that they don't have to wait long times between new spells.  That should help with early to mid game issues.  For base classes, look for subtle ways to improve them at what you'd consider a mid tier class in order to have them keep up.  For late game, it's more likely that alt-classes got too strong, rather than base classes being too weak.  After checking the new level of balance after the first two tweaks, if Alt classes are still dominant, consider subtle nerfs.

And when I say subtle, I mean subtle.  We're talking a 5% buff or nerf to maybe one stat to help give it an edge or weaken it a bit.  Tweak it, test it, see if it needs more improvement.  Spell selection is also important.  Something as simple as swapping out Delusion for an ailment that doesn't suck, or swapping in delusion in place of a stronger ability would go a long way.  And don't forget the importance of proper spell progression!  A powerful class is usless in midgame if it learns no new spells to cast!  Sure, having both Plasma and Prism may sound cool in theory, but it's only ever good in practice just after you learn those spells.

And as I mentioned before - take a hard look at the classes and ask yourself what role that class has in battle.  If the adept is that class, what is their goal?  If you have an overabundance of one role over another, you may have yourself a problem - the imbalance of classes may actually just be a better selection with certain setups.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 24, April, 2015, 01:17:09 AM
Sorry to butt into a far more meta-game focused discussion, but it appears that Veteran Felix (6 :VenusDjinni:) doesn't have Odyssey. This is correct, yes? I only ask because it isn't specified on the class chart, per se.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 24, April, 2015, 06:37:50 AM
Sorry to butt into a far more meta-game focused discussion, but it appears that Veteran Felix (6 :VenusDjinni:) doesn't have Odyssey. This is correct, yes? I only ask because it isn't specified on the class chart, per se.
Yes it's intended. I shifted the second tier of the EPA to one djinn later, so EPAs like Odissey, Diamond Berg etc are only learned when the classes reaches the 7 djinn tier or higher.

I think there's a few problems here.

First - the fact that base classes start to loose hold as the game progresses
Second - the fact that alt classes take until midgame to pick up steam
Third - the fact that alt classes start to outshine base classes at late game.

And when I say subtle, I mean subtle.  We're talking a 5% buff or nerf to maybe one stat to help give it an edge or weaken it a bit.  Tweak it, test it, see if it needs more improvement.  Spell selection is also important.  Something as simple as swapping out Delusion for an ailment that doesn't suck, or swapping in delusion in place of a stronger ability would go a long way.  And don't forget the importance of proper spell progression!  A powerful class is usless in midgame if it learns no new spells to cast!  Sure, having both Plasma and Prism may sound cool in theory, but it's only ever good in practice just after you learn those spells.

And as I mentioned before - take a hard look at the classes and ask yourself what role that class has in battle.  If the adept is that class, what is their goal?  If you have an overabundance of one role over another, you may have yourself a problem - the imbalance of classes may actually just be a better selection with certain setups.
IMO the extra tier will at least completely solve the third problem, because it will put mono elemental classes on equal footing with the others. I can't see how you can do it without taking this step... you're basically trying to make a Templar as good as a Paladin without switching to it.

The first and second problem are very intertwined with each other. To drift away from mono elemental classes means to trade raw power for versatility, but early to mid game you don't have access to that versatility just because you lack the levels, and thus the spell selection that is the very core of it. At 4-5 Djinn is worth trying the change cause:
A) you gained some levels and thus, some versatility.
B) you can exploit the extra tier the 2-elemental classes have at 5 Djinn.
C) some alt classes just don't cut it without the spells you learn once you hit the 4-djinn threshold (Wizard, Guru).

As for staggering spells, I don't see that being much of an issue. The good thing about this class system is that it is quite flexible, so if a class is lacking in damage cause it isn't learning new spells you can just change your class setup. This is a very good thing to me instead, because it encourages players to try new classes, not to mention that no one is asking you to stick to a single class setup from the beginning to the end, and that we are limited to 16 spells, so it's not easy at all to give the class some spells mid game and at the same time not to make it suck badly late-game.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: JamietheFlameUser on 24, April, 2015, 05:12:53 PM
One advantage to the PP multiplier patch is that staggering spells is less detrimental to your elemental variety by endgame. One more thing to consider: A base class has an inherent disadvantage compared to a dual- or tri-element class regardless of statistical differences: while a base class has more elemental power with which to simply click offensive spells, they can't reliably target a foe's weakest elemental resistance to maximize damage output. Targeting your foe's weakest element can make a huge difference in damage output. (To the point where in one of my hacks that uses the PP multiplier patch, it's frequently more effective for a Sheba with only 1 Mars Djinni to Fireball a Fire-weak enemy than it is for her to Ray them, even though both spells have 65 base power and her Jupiter power is significantly higher than her Mars power.) And that's on top of the limited variety of status spells a base class can have access to compared to a dual- or tri-element class. (Although as you are the developer, that can be fixed simply by adding duplicate status spells with different elements.)

If it takes 4 Djinn for a class to get a relevant spell, you could reduce the requirement to 2 Djinn depending on the spell in question (obviously, area heals such as Wish are going to be restricted to 4 Djinn regardless because anything earlier is pretty much inherently broken).


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 24, April, 2015, 11:23:26 PM
There's a few things you can do to change stuff:

1:  Consider changing some Full Party Healing to Multi Target Healing - healing is affected by diminishing power too.  Here's some revamping to healing I've done.  It alters the balance of it a bit, which I'll explain table by table.

Changes to ST Healing were done to alleviate the formula breaking that the Pray/Ply series does.  However, simply fixing it to fit formula makes it utterly worthless compared to Wish - healing a meager 60 hp more to a single target.  The higher values are necessary to make it worth bothering with at all.  As such, the formula itself has been changed from 2x per tier rank up, to 2.5x per tier rank up.  This avoids the somewhat OP nature of Pure Pray, while still allowing it to be rather potent.  It also gives similar potency to other spell families of its type.  Cure and Boon have been slightly buffed to allow for the addition of Heart, but without allowing Hearth to be utterly worthless.  If following patterns form the canon games, Hearth would be the same power as it's Full Party counterpart (Aura), and as such there'd be no point.  Their level requirement and costs have been adjusted to compensate.  In addition, healing itself is more expensive - it was too cheap in base game anyways.

.                 ,-------------------------------.
  Single Target   | Element | Rng | Lv | PP | Pow |
,-----------------+---------+-----+----+----+-----|
| Hearth          |    Mars |   1 |  1 |  3 |  70 |
| Warm Hearth     |    Mars |   1 | 11 |  8 | 175 |
| Soothing Hearth |    Mars |   1 | 30 | 18 | 435 |
 >----------------+---------+-----+----+----+----<
| Cure            |   Venus |   1 |  2 |  4 |  80 |
| Cure Well       |   Venus |   1 | 13 |  9 | 200 |
| Potent Cure     |   Venus |   1 | 32 | 20 | 500 |
 >----------------+---------+-----+----+----+----<
| Boon            | Jupiter |   1 |  3 |  4 |  90 |
| Nature's Boon   | Jupiter |   1 | 16 | 10 | 225 |
| Vital Boon      | Jupiter |   1 | 34 | 22 | 560 |
 >----------------+---------+-----+----+----+----<
| Pray            | Mercury |   1 |  4 |  4 | 100 |
| Pray Well       | Mercury |   1 | 18 | 11 | 250 |
| Pure Pray       | Mercury |   1 | 36 | 24 | 625 |
`-------------------------------------------------'



MT healing takes advantage of the fact that Healing can, in fact, be affected by diminishing areas.  Just change its range and BAM, everyone's not getting healed for the same.  It's designed to be between ST and FP healing in strength, and as a result has also been given a Tier 2 restriction.  You have to have a 2 djinn class to use these.  Their power increase is 2.25x per tier.  Note that the Care line is known as the Fresh Breeze line in the US.  I'm using the JP name for consistency (one should follow naming conventions, dammit!).  It's placed here as a reference to how it was area healing gotten early.

.                 ,-------------------------------.
  Multi Target    | Element | Rng | Lv | PP | Pow |
,-----------------+---------+-----+----+----+-----|
| Glow            |    Mars |   3 |  4 |  4 |  60 |
| Warm Glow       |    Mars |   5 | 14 | 10 | 135 |
| Soothing Glow   |    Mars |   7 | 33 | 21 | 300 |
 >----------------+---------+-----+----+----+----<
| Aid             |   Venus |   3 |  6 |  5 |  70 |
| Aid Well        |   Venus |   5 | 17 | 11 | 155 |
| Potent Aid      |   Venus |   7 | 36 | 23 | 345 |
 >----------------+---------+-----+----+----+----<
| Care            | Jupiter |   3 |  7 |  6 |  80 |
| Tender Care     | Jupiter |   5 | 20 | 13 | 180 |
| Hearted Care    | Jupiter |   7 | 39 | 26 | 405 |
 >----------------+---------+-----+----+----+----<
| Anoint          | Mercury |   3 |  8 |  7 |  90 |
| Anoint Well     | Mercury |   5 | 22 | 15 | 200 |
| Pure Anoint     | Mercury |   7 | 41 | 28 | 450 |
`-------------------------------------------------'


Full Party healing has basically been upped in cost.  In terms of power, it's essentially the same.  I've nerfed Pure Wish, but only a small amount so that it follows formula.  I'm sure you can see, but I'm very strict with spells following proper formula rules.  Obviously, all of these spells can only be accessed in Tier 3 classes and above (4 djinn classes).

.                 ,-------------------------------.
  Full Party      | Element | Rng | Lv | PP | Pow |
,-----------------+---------+-----+----+----+-----|
| Aura            |    Mars | ALL |  7 |  5 |  50 |
| Cool Aura       |    Mars | ALL | 16 | 11 | 100 |
| Soothing Aura   |    Mars | ALL | 33 | 21 | 200 |
 >----------------+---------+-----+----+----+----<
| Heal            |   Venus | ALL |  8 |  7 |  60 |
| Heal Well       |   Venus | ALL | 20 | 13 | 120 |
| Potent Heal     |   Venus | ALL | 38 | 25 | 240 |
 >----------------+---------+-----+----+----+----<
| Breeze          | Jupiter | ALL | 10 |  8 |  70 |
| Fresh Breeze    | Jupiter | ALL | 24 | 16 | 140 |
| Soothing Breeze | Jupiter | ALL | 42 | 28 | 280 |
 >----------------+---------+-----+----+----+----<
| Wish            | Mercury | ALL | 12 |  9 |  80 |
| Wish Well       | Mercury | ALL | 27 | 18 | 160 |
| Pure Wish       | Mercury | ALL | 46 | 31 | 320 |
`-------------------------------------------------'


I also have ideas for single target and full party regen lines, but unless you code those from scratch we're better off ignoring them for now.


2: stagger spell categories better.  With properly scaling spells, there's no need to double up on power spells.  This should bring down the OP nature of some classes like Wizard and help to make them more viable in mid-game.

3: Symbiotic classes (the 6-tier ones) can easily be fixed by making them a half-tier weaker than other classes in their first tier.  Drop their stats by 5% across the board.  From there, it's spells you need to look at.

4: PP and ATK.  Be mindful of these multipliers - they're the main offenses.  Consider swapping 5% here or there to other stats, such as the defenses and Agility.  Small tweaks can make all the difference int he long run.

5: Useful spells.  No, seriously.  There's plenty of spells that aren't all that effective in GS.  If a class is to powerful, give it slightly less useful spells.  If one is too weak, give it slightly more useful spells.  

6: Spell Tier variance.  What is this, you ask?  Well, consider this - the final forms of spells could be more powerful in base classes, but have an effect in alt-classes.  For example, Felix could learn Wild Growth in his base class, but Frenzy Growth in an alt class.  Frenzy growth is 10-20% weaker, but has an effect.  In this case, it has a chance to lower agility!  Swapping out power for utility can actually not only help nerf some classes, but outright change the way you use them, often for the better.




Edit:  Right!~  You've changed damage formulas, haven't you?  If you can, see about changing healing's Magnitude (AoE diminishing rate) to be the same as Diminishing AoE.  That should ensure a good balance for the MT healing.  If you think that's too much, use Summon's diminishing ranges instead.  These should keep ST and FP healing untouched, but would allow for a more fine-tuned MT Healing.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 25, April, 2015, 12:51:34 PM
1: I already considered the possibility of creating MT healing... it's not like i scrapped it but it wasn't convinced enough with it to put it into practice. I do agree on making healing more expensive. In my patch i already raised the cost of the highest tier of ST healing and of all full party healing. Pure Wish is the one that suffered the most from it, with is BP reduced to 320 and PP cost raised to an enormous 48. This was also done to make healers opt for PP regeneration and thus have less offensive capabilities due to lower power/maxPP.

And yes, i tend to follow formulas as well, but i'm not so strict with them... i'd rather say that i use them as a starting point but if things don't "feel" right to me i have no qualms in drifting from them.

What i'm totally against is give every element ST/MP/FP healing. My magic number for those powerful abilities is 2. Up to 2 elements are allowed to have them, that's why i made the venus impact, mercury ward and mars revive.

Also, if you're intrested i managed to implement and test regen abilities, using lord squirtle's advanced regeneration. I wanted to make a mercury djinn with that ability (i'll always leave unique or very powerful effects to djinn).

2. all i can say not is that i'll think about it... but maybe the most i'll do is to slightly nerf/replace some psynergies.

3. i didn't really get this one but every dual classes has 6 tiers and obviously the jump from 4 to 5 djinn increases the stats by the half of what gaining a tier normally does (since usually there are 2 djinn between a tier and the next). The same concept has been applied to the tri-elemental's jump from 8 to 9 djinn (and will be applied to mono elemental classes if i add the 9-djinn tier), and adapted to item classes, where there are 3 djinn between tiers.

4-5-6. Roger

As a side note... why Pray over Ply? You just don't like Ply or there's something else?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 26, April, 2015, 01:40:01 AM
Hey Cale,

Could you explain in detail how the new Reflux works? I was trying to pop it often in the Poseidon fight to get 4 counters from the AoE and it appears to not exactly work as I'd hoped. I'm gonna guess for multi-targets it just picks one of the party to counter?



Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 26, April, 2015, 09:10:50 AM
Hey Cale,

Could you explain in detail how the new Reflux works? I was trying to pop it often in the Poseidon fight to get 4 counters from the AoE and it appears to not exactly work as I'd hoped. I'm gonna guess for multi-targets it just picks one of the party to counter?
Yes it's exactly like that.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 26, April, 2015, 03:17:06 PM
Alright, thanks.

Also, I just picked up the Warden class for Janna and I'm seeing the Veil and Screen psynergies. Their descriptions are both just "?", I just wanted to give you the heads-up. I'm guessing they're RES-increasing?

Thanks for keeping the Minerva Helm as +MaxPP strong for warriors as the Ceres' Helm was in TBS. All the Lemurian Spring items just look great too, you know?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: JamietheFlameUser on 27, April, 2015, 01:11:53 AM
IIRC, the one who counters is the right-most member of the party to be hit. So if the full party is hit and in default formation (Felix, Jenna, Sheba, Piers), then Piers will be the one to counter-attack.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 27, April, 2015, 01:22:45 AM
Also, I just picked up the Warden class for Janna and I'm seeing the Veil and Screen psynergies. Their descriptions are both just "?", I just wanted to give you the heads-up. I'm guessing they're RES-increasing?
Sorry for the screw-up... i've uploaded 1.22b to fix it. And yes, it's a mercury equivalent of ward, like impact and demon spear.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 27, April, 2015, 03:42:39 AM
@jamie: Huh, testing shows you're correct. I wouldn't have initially guessed that. Thanks!

@Cale: Since I just finished Lemuria and am running around the Great Western Sea grabbing rusty weapons and Djinn, is there anything you want feedback up to this point? Or anything you think I should for in the future to record my reaction?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 27, April, 2015, 04:49:53 AM
1: I already considered the possibility of creating MT healing... it's not like i scrapped it but it wasn't convinced enough with it to put it into practice. I do agree on making healing more expensive. In my patch i already raised the cost of the highest tier of ST healing and of all full party healing. Pure Wish is the one that suffered the most from it, with is BP reduced to 320 and PP cost raised to an enormous 48. This was also done to make healers opt for PP regeneration and thus have less offensive capabilities due to lower power/maxPP.

And yes, i tend to follow formulas as well, but i'm not so strict with them... i'd rather say that i use them as a starting point but if things don't "feel" right to me i have no qualms in drifting from them.

What i'm totally against is give every element ST/MP/FP healing. My magic number for those powerful abilities is 2. Up to 2 elements are allowed to have them, that's why i made the venus impact, mercury ward and mars revive.

Also, if you're intrested i managed to implement and test regen abilities, using lord squirtle's advanced regeneration. I wanted to make a mercury djinn with that ability (i'll always leave unique or very powerful effects to djinn).

2. all i can say not is that i'll think about it... but maybe the most i'll do is to slightly nerf/replace some psynergies.

3. i didn't really get this one but every dual classes has 6 tiers and obviously the jump from 4 to 5 djinn increases the stats by the half of what gaining a tier normally does (since usually there are 2 djinn between a tier and the next). The same concept has been applied to the tri-elemental's jump from 8 to 9 djinn (and will be applied to mono elemental classes if i add the 9-djinn tier), and adapted to item classes, where there are 3 djinn between tiers.

4-5-6. Roger

As a side note... why Pray over Ply? You just don't like Ply or there's something else?

Let's start with the simple thing first!  Ply looks like it's a typo on Camelot of Japan's part.  When looking at the naming conventions and the story stuff revolving around it, not to mention it's freaking dark dawn icon, it looks like they meant to say Pray, not Ply.  However, this can go either way, and is mostly a matter of preference, since technically Ply is the correct translation.  Naming conventions are important IMO - they give an element a sense of identity.  It's own flavor, so to speak.  

1:  Oh, heavens no!  Just pick the ones you need!  All of them have been made, but there's no reason to force all of them in there - only the ones that make sense to be used.  Having a global table like this just helps when it comes to looking up the names, strength, level learned, and cost of spells.

@Regen:  Oh?  Well, in that case, here's my personal take on it.  I've never actually been able to test it, though, so just use it as kind of an example of how it could be done.

Quote
Regen spells were designed to be stronger than normal healing spells, but the healing occurs over several turns.  Regen is considered an effect, and does not stack with similar spells.  If a stronger regen spell is cast, it overwrites the older version.  Weaker regen spells imply have no effect.  Regen, as a general rule, is a third as strong as a comparable full strength healing spell, but heals over the course of 4 turns.  Regen spells are considered effects, not buffs, and are immune to the effects of break-type spells.

Single target regen is based on single target healing.  They can be learned as soon as Tier 1 (0-1 djinn classes).

.                 ,-------------------------------.
  Single Regen    | Element | Rng | Lv | PP | Pow |
,-----------------+---------+-----+----+----+-----|
| Warmth          |    Mars |   1 |  2 |  3 |  20 |
| Balmy Warmth    |    Mars |   1 | 12 |  9 |  55 |
| Soothing Warmth |    Mars |   1 | 31 | 19 | 145 |
 >----------------+---------+-----+----+----+----<
| Regen           |   Venus |   1 |  4 |  4 |  25 |
| Regen Well      |   Venus |   1 | 15 | 10 |  65 |
| Potent Regen    |   Venus |   1 | 34 | 21 | 165 |
 >----------------+---------+-----+----+----+----<
| Breath          | Jupiter |   1 |  5 |  5 |  30 |
| Fresh Breath    | Jupiter |   1 | 18 | 12 |  75 |
| Vital Breath    | Jupiter |   1 | 36 | 26 | 185 |
 >----------------+---------+-----+----+----+----<
| Bless           | Mercury |   1 |  6 |  6 |  35 |
| Bless Well      | Mercury |   1 | 20 | 13 |  85 |
| Pure Bless      | Mercury |   1 | 38 | 26 | 205 |
`-------------------------------------------------'


Full Party Regen is based on full party healing.  It can be learned at the same time as full party healing - from Tier 3 onwards (4 djinn classes).

.                 ,-------------------------------.
  Party Regen     | Element | Rng | Lv | PP | Pow |
,-----------------+---------+-----+----+----+-----|
| Pulse           |    Mars | ALL |  5 |  5 |  15 |
| Warm Pulse      |    Mars | ALL | 15 | 10 |  35 |
| Soothing Pulse  |    Mars | ALL | 37 | 21 |  65 |
 >----------------+---------+-----+----+----+----<
| Recover         |   Venus | ALL |  7 |  6 |  20 |
| Recover Well    |   Venus | ALL | 18 | 12 |  40 |
| Potent Recover  |   Venus | ALL | 37 | 24 |  80 |
 >----------------+---------+-----+----+----+----<
| Calm            | Jupiter | ALL |  8 |  7 |  25 |
| Tender Calm     | Jupiter | ALL | 22 | 14 |  45 |
| Soothing Calm   | Jupiter | ALL | 40 | 28 |  95 |
 >----------------+---------+-----+----+----+----<
| Sanctify        | Mercury | ALL | 10 |  8 |  30 |
| Sanctify Well   | Mercury | ALL | 24 | 16 |  50 |
| Pure Sanctify   | Mercury | ALL | 43 | 29 | 110 |
`-------------------------------------------------'


Because of the diminishing effects of multi target healing, there is no regen version of that.  Healing and Regen effects are mutually exclusive - you can have ST Healing OR ST Regen, and can have FP Healing OR FP Regen.  However, you don't have to stick to only one type.  It's entirely possible to have both ST Regen and FP Healing, etc.
If nothing else, this gives you some decent options for spell names.

3:  Here's the types of classes and how I refer to them, with Isaac's original classes as example:

Base Class (5 Tiers, mono-element) - Squire Line
Dual Symbiotic (6 Tiers, second element is symbiote) - Brute Line
Dual Adjacent (5 Tiers, second element is neutral) - Swordsman Line (renamed Crusader Line in Dark Dawn)
Dual Opposite (5 Tiers, second element is opposite) - Apprentice Line
Tri Adjacent (3 Tiers, Neutral is main, Symbiote is secondary) - Dragoon Line
Tri Opposite (3 Tiers, Opposite is main, Symbiote is secondary) - Ninja Line
Tri Hybrid A (2 Tiers, Symbiote is Main, Neutral is secondary) - Isaac does not have a class in this category in vanilla Golden Sun
Tri Hybrid O (2 Tiers, Symbiote is Main, Opposite is secondary) - Samurai Line
Item Class (depends on the item.  Vanilla form has 4 Tiers, all non-base elements given equal representation) - Dark Mage, Pierrot, Tamer, etc
Overdrive (essentially a Tier 6, 7, and 8 class.  Spell cast to activate, turns consume djinn) - Introduced in Dark Dawn, Sveta's Wild Animal class line

So, why 6?  For the same reason the Venus Lighthouse restored Satty and Menny, a couple of Mars adepts, to full power so they could become the Fusion Dragon.  The same reason the lit Mercury and Jupiter Lighthouses froze the way to the Northern Reaches in a solid block of ice.  Symbiotic classes play off of how in the lore of the games, the elements of Mars and Venus, and the elements of Jupiter and Mercury will resonate with and empower one another.  It's for this reason that they have a 6th tier, though for balance reasons I treat Dual Symbiotic classes as having tiers 0.5 - 5.5.  Statistically, they need to be so that they're not too powerful.

This is also the reason that Tri-Element classes always have the symbiotic element involved.  If it helps, here's a graphic for how I approach it:

(http://i.imgur.com/CG6GG8n.png)

If you need anything else, just let me know~


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 27, April, 2015, 04:06:06 PM
Now i get that class stuff. However, I applied a much simpler system, where the stat multiplier is determined only by the number of djinn the tier requires, with starting classes always being counted as 0 (to equalize duals with mono in the first tier). Obviously this is not too strict and some adjustment were made especially for early classes. When making classes I always start from the top tier (for checking average on my class chart), then i make the other tiers by subtracting 10% HP and 5% to every other stat except luck per djinn lost, and finally i make the needed adjustment by comparing all classes. So stat wise, all dual classes are the same, but in my mod everyone can see that the symbiotic have the edge on the others, either due to psynergy sets (Miko, Wizard) or raw strength that usually belongs to tri elem. classes (Brute, Seafarer).

Nice to see that i wasn't the only one to think about the Tri Hybrid A class set.

And thanks for the names suggestion... choosing names has always been very time consuming for me. Guess what, it's the only reason why I haven't released the 9-djinn tier for base classes yet.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 27, April, 2015, 05:14:31 PM
Basically, I have a problem with the most powerful classes (statistically speaking) having access to some rather unique but very powerful elemental psynergy, even though their lack of elemental levels suggests that they wouldn't have access to these spells or that higher elemental level classes would have access to comparably stronger spells.

Look at the Ninja class, for example. It's top level requires (for non-partial classes) 5 :JupiterDjinni: and either 4 :VenusDjinni: or 4 :MarsDjinni:. But look at the psynergy it brings to the table: Annihilation, Thunderhead, Death Leap, Punji Strike, Carpet Bomb, Shuriken, and Hurricane.

Annihilation is an incredibly strong move. But there's nothing even close to comparable for the classes that specialize in the element. And the Ninja gets access to Thunderhead, the strongest AoE Jupiter psynergy. Punji Strike and Carpet Bomb are very reasonable, being either unique or weaker and cheaper than a counterpart series (Blast to Fire Bomb). Shuriken is unique and or above-average usefulness. Hurricane is slightly weaker than a counterpart (Whirlwind) which is perfectly fair.

The Ninja class got a lot right in Punji Strike, Carpet Bomb, Hurricane, Shuriken, and probably Death Leap. But Annihilation and Thunderhead look crazy. If I want to do big Venus things (Annihilation, Grand Golem, Grand Gaia, Sabre Dance, Call Demon (look at that @#$%. You can get ATK x1.9 for 2 Venus Djinn and level 26.)), then I need a big Venus elemental level. Not, like, 2, 3 Djinn. I know, a lot of those spells are class unique. But they get them for such a pittance.

If I have 9 Venus Djinn, my Venus spells should be pretty great. At :VenusStar: lvl 13, I AM Venus psynergy. And I get, like, Quake Sphere. Or Punji Strike. Maybe the dual and tri elemental classes should keep a lot of their heavy-multiplying single attack Psynergy, but the mono-elemental classes need to bring a lot to the table in terms of higher base power spells and AoE. Punishment is a great addition, as are Meltdown and Tyrfing to close some of the gap.

I guess if you're afraid of people summon-rushing, give the higher tiers some really nice stuff and make losing Djinn really hurt (easier said than done, I know). There's a lot I'm seeing in the higher level dual elementals with picking up Plume Edge, Liquifier, Odyssey, and Diamond Berg at higher class levels. I really, really like seeing that.

(I didn't talk about the potential to use Djinn in battle. This post is probably too long anyway.)


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 27, April, 2015, 07:47:05 PM
I think it all boils down on how you look at things. We could hack this game following a thousand of different concepts, and as long as someone chooses one and sticks to it he/she'd be right. Rolina has her own idea of class balance that revolves around roles (attacker, debuffer, tank, caster etc), yours would probably revolve around elemental levels, the original developers had their own idea and i have mine.

What I'm saying is that while you're obviously right, it's the starting point that's different here. In my mod, I choose to separate the classes in warriors and mages. The Ninja is a warrior mage hybrid focused solely on offense. He has the lowest HP and highest PP out of all warriors, top offense both "physical" and "magical"... the downside is that he can't do anything else. Zero support, debuff and heal abilities on top of a fragile body.

As you can see elemental power matters nothing to me. I just made an exception for warriors in their base class, since;
1. I thought that would be ok for them to learn a strong spell since they're so focused on a single element.
2. they are still not as good as mages due to the pp multiplier.

The problem with summon rushing, other than break the game is that their whole point is to kill the enemy before he has a chance to do anything, so it doesn't matter at all how much "hurts" losing djinn.

BTW, I don't know if you're referring to the original game, but in my mod thunderhead is not the strongest AoE Jupiter psynergy and Call Demon isn't a multiplier spell.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 27, April, 2015, 08:49:21 PM
Oh yeah, you're totally correct that there's no magic bullet for balancing classes. There's a dozen+ different metrics one could use to balance the classes around and then you would still have to deal with the existence of summons. And if the game was perfect, what would we even be doing here?

I'm enjoying the mod a lot. Putting the Gaia Blade and Kikuichimonji in the store at Contigo was a nice surprise.



Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 27, April, 2015, 08:50:35 PM
Finally managed to rearrange names for mono elemental classes due to the added tier. The tiers now are 0-2-4-6-8-9 djinn, names follow.

Isaac: Squire - Knight - Gallant - Nobleman - Lord - Dragonslayer
Garet: Guard - Soldier - Warrior - Baron - Phalanx - Aegis
Ivan: Bolt User - Magician - Illusionist - Spellcaster - Archmage - Sorcerer
Mia: Water User - Officiant - Cleric - Saint - Angel - Seraph

Felix: Rogue - Knave - Outlaw - Veteran - Conqueror - Tyrant
Jenna: Flame User - Witch - Hex - Fire Genius - Fire Master - Incendiary
Sheba: Wind User - Sybil - Mystic - Priestess - Pythia - Prophet
Piers: Mariner - Privateer - Skipper - Captain - Commander - Admiral

Thoughts?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Salanewt on 27, April, 2015, 09:36:15 PM
I mostly like the names, although I'd opt for something more like "Pyromancer" or "Siren" for either of Jenna's fifth or sixth tier classes because they are currently two classes in a row that begin with the same word in a line that begins with a similar word. Never really liked Fire Master in the original game either; personal preference though.

Otherwise: I haven't tried it out yet, but nothing else really stands out as being off or bad to me. I can let you know when I get around to trying them out later.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 27, April, 2015, 09:43:26 PM
"Dragonslayer" seems kind of out of place in Isaac's hierarchy. It's cool, don't get me wrong, but I figured it would be something like "Regent" or "Sovereign".


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 27, April, 2015, 10:06:48 PM
"Dragonslayer" seems kind of out of place in Isaac's hierarchy. It's cool, don't get me wrong, but I figured it would be something like "Regent" or "Sovereign".
I know... Believe it or not "Dragonslayer" is the japanese name of his slayer class. Don't know why it was reduced to slayer... it fits space wise. I like your suggestion though. If i manage to make it work in italian as well i'll use it.

@Lord Squirtle. Pyromancer didn't even occur to me cause its italian equivalent "Piromante" is used for her "Flame User". In fact all those -mancer names are used for the "X user" classes. Siren sounds too "watery" to me though...


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 27, April, 2015, 10:08:08 PM
Is the japanese "Dragonslayer" supposed to reference something mythological in particular?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 27, April, 2015, 10:14:59 PM
Is the japanese "Dragonslayer" supposed to reference something mythological in particular?
Nothing comes to mind. This is written on the etimology section of squire's class page on the wikia:

All classes in this series are knightly ranks or roles of traditional fairy-tale hero-knights (Slayer or Dragon Slayer). The Japanese name, Swordsman, shows a more focused element on swordfighting, with Gallant being known as Swordmaster.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 27, April, 2015, 10:45:59 PM
Now i get that class stuff. However, I applied a much simpler system, where the stat multiplier is determined only by the number of djinn the tier requires, with starting classes always being counted as 0 (to equalize duals with mono in the first tier). Obviously this is not too strict and some adjustment were made especially for early classes. When making classes I always start from the top tier (for checking average on my class chart), then i make the other tiers by subtracting 10% HP and 5% to every other stat except luck per djinn lost, and finally i make the needed adjustment by comparing all classes. So stat wise, all dual classes are the same, but in my mod everyone can see that the symbiotic have the edge on the others, either due to psynergy sets (Miko, Wizard) or raw strength that usually belongs to tri elem. classes (Brute, Seafarer).

Nice to see that i wasn't the only one to think about the Tri Hybrid A class set.

And thanks for the names suggestion... choosing names has always been very time consuming for me. Guess what, it's the only reason why I haven't released the 9-djinn tier for base classes yet.

Another thing to point out - the DA and DO classes have a fun little thing that happens to them.  While they don't have a 6th tier, they DO have an additional bump in power in specific stats.  One thing you could easily is to look at each stat and give it some weight.  In this system, some stats weigh higher than others - Attack and PP are offensive stats now, and PP doubles as fuel.  They're weighted high.  LUCK, HP, and DEF are important for defenses.  They're weighted in the middle.  While they're important, they're not as breakable.  Agility, however, is weighted low.  Its only real use is turn order, and though.  In small doses, it has little effect.  In larger chunks, the cumulative effects could have notable effects, especially if you buffed enemy speeds.

While having higher stats is great and all, a great way to counter the strange half steps and the like would be to tweak the stats.  You could transfer some stats from high weighted stats down to lower weights.  Or, if the class is supposed to be statistically powerful, make it so that they have a harsh difference in speed, allowing many enemies to go before them.  Sure, Agility is low weight by my opinion,

Look at how vanilla does Brute, for example.  Statistically, it's a powerhouse.  It also has crap for luck.  Hits like a truck, and is easily stopped by control spells.  Stun, poison, Insta-KO - this class has crap for defenses against them.  It's well balanced, in retrospect.  Wizard, on the other hand, has High Fuel, High Speed, two expert spells, Area Healing, and easily the best buff in the game.  Oh, and it's defenses become average at 4th tier, so those are decent too.  Sure, it has hiccups when it comes to smooth viability.  Between spell upgrades, it can easily be outclassed for a few levels, but each time it reaches the group of levels it learns spells at, it becomes crazy strong.  Oh, and it's tied for second best luck in the game.  That's a shining example of something that needs to be nerfed to hell and back.  Drop speed by 15-20%, swap one expert line for a basic line, drop impact for a lesser buff like Defense, Resist, or Agility, and drop its luck by 10%.  That should help to bring it to the level of brute.  It's still a good class, especially with PP becoming an offensive stat - it's just no longer considered epic tier.

Oh, and notice the order I listed those stats above?  That's my personal weight order now that PP is offensive -

(Power - improves both physical attacks and spells, as well as healing power)
Attack - offense without the burden of fuel
PP - offense, fuels itself, can run out
Luck - control defense
(Resistance - spell defense)
HP - Vitality
Defense - physical defense
(Element Level - control offense, but has limited influence)
Agility - Turn order

@Class names:

Felix as Tyrant is wrong.  For a guy willing to put saving the world on hold to help people, that's just wrong.  The names seem to be taken form the ones I assigned him, which were designed to be mirrors of Isaac.  Rogue is mirror to Squire, you have Knight and Knave, the gallant hero and the outlaw, the noble lord and the grizzled veteran, and to mirror Isaac's "Slayer of Foes" with a "Conqueror of Trials".  If you're going to add Noble to Isaac (and yeah, Noble sounds better than Nobleman to me.  Dunno why, though), I'd say to add Mercenary.  The idea here is that while Isaac is the Shining Paladin, the Yes Man, the Lawful Good guy, Felix is the Dark Knight, the one who says No to the call if it means he can save people, the Chaotic Good hero.  Tyrant isn't what Felix is - it's what he takes down.  Isaac follows orders - Felix takes action.  I know this is out of order, but it just screams to me.

Isaac - I'd personally use Noble instead of Nobleman, and Dragonslayer seems like an unnecessary expansion of his original Slayer.  Edit:  After reading the posts that beat me to the punch, I can say this:  While the JP version was Dragon Slayer, it doesn't fit with the noble spin things took.  Instead, try and make it flow like an honorable swordsman.  So...  Squire → Swordsman → Knight → Swordmaster → Lord → Great Lord.  This also doubles as a Fire Emblem shout out.  Then, make Felix Rogue → Scrapper → Knave → Mercenary → Dread Fighter → Conqueror.  This follows the original conventions that Felix's classes had of mirroring Isaac's, including the FE references if you take this route.

Why is Garet a Baron?  That seems out of place.  I'd go Warrior → Champion → Hero → Legend, which would fit the original more.

Ivan - I'd go Bolt User → Magician → Magus → Magister → Sorcerer → Archmage.  Illusionist doesn't fit him or his class, and spellcaster sounds like a step down.

Mia - Water User or Water Seer → Scribe → Cleric → Saint → Angel → Seraph.  Still don't know where Officiant came from - guessing it was a localization from another region?

Jenna - I don't like those last three.  Hex → Incendiary → Pyromancer → Flame Master would fit more, though you drop the Justice name. But Justice never made sense as a class name to me anyway.

Sheba - Swap Wind User for Wind Seer here, since it fits class naming conventions more for her.  Wind Seer → Sybil → Mystic → Priestess → Prophet → Herald sounds better to me.  Or swap Pythia for Oracle, which gives roughly the same meaning without sounding like you're downgrading to Prophet.

Piers - Skipper is just... out of place.  Go Mariner → Seaman → Privateer → Captain → Commander → Admiral if you go that route.  Personally, I'd keep what he has in vanilla and just add Fleet Admiral, since it sounds like an upgrade.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 27, April, 2015, 10:59:41 PM
Wow. That's a lot of input! Thanks a lot guys, I'm positive I'll find a compromise and I'll let you know the outcome. Next patch (outside of bugfixes) will be v1.30 and will include the extra tier and my take on Rolina's advices.

A few comments on Role's suggestions:

Tyrant will probably go down now that i know why you named the other tiers like that.
To me Slayer is an unnecessary shortening of the original Dragonslayer, LOL.
Baron is from japanese, like Phalanx. I liked the Phalanx cause it fits his defensive abilities perfectly IMO and I tried to follow it with Aegis.
Mia: I don't get why scribe fits for you. what about Religious?
I already said why pyromancer was left out... and i don't really see why incendiary would be below it and flame master.
I like Ivan and Piers, if i manage to find accetable translation in italian they're in. Fleet Admiral is out though cause "Grandammiraglio" is absurdly long... i'm placing my hopes on Seaman.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 27, April, 2015, 11:08:49 PM
You guys posted stuff while I was posting, and I just added an edit there talking about it.  I see what you're trying to do with Isaac, and kinda like it.  Gave some more suggestions, as well as what to do with Felix if you take that route.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 27, April, 2015, 11:14:58 PM
Perhaps something like "Pyrokinetic" or "Pyromancer" instead of either Fire Master or Fire Genius. Alternatively, maybe something "Vesper"? I'm having problems coming up with Fire User-esque terms that haven't already been used.

I kinda agree with Rolina on Felix's classes, but at the same time, I dump Mars Djinn onto Felix and now he's a Berserker, so I don't put too much weight into class names. But I do like them making sense in terms of progression. Champion and Hero have already been used for a 7/9 Djinn class series, so that would have to change.

Maybe something like "Executor" at the highest rank for Piers? I'm loath to switch up the class progressions from one word to two words (for something like Fleet Admiral), since all of Piers' other classes are one word.



My breakdown:

Isaac: Squire - Knight - Gallant - Noble - Lord - Sovereign/Regent  (really just any term that you feel would keep the momentum from Gallant -> Noble -> Lord would work)
Garet: Guard - Soldier - Ombudsman - Phalanx - Aegis
Ivan: Bolt User - Magician - Enchanter - Magister - Sorcerer - Archmage
Mia: Water Seer - Scribe - Cleric - Saint - Angel - Seraph  (I really agree with Rolina here; Officiant seems odd even though it may be an accurate term)

Felix: Rogue - Knave - Outlaw - Mercenary - Veteran - Conqueror  (I like Conqueror, I like Mercenary, but I didn't like Tyrant.)
Jenna: Flame User - Witch - Hex - Pyromancer/Pyrokinetic - Incendiary - Lucent
Sheba: Wind User - Sybil - Mystic - Priestess - Pythia - Prophet  (Really great class series)
Piers: Mariner - Privateer - Captain - Commander - Admiral - Executor  (I'm sure that there is a one word term that can be used beyond Admiral)

Lemme know what anyone thinks.

 


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 27, April, 2015, 11:22:22 PM
So long as you don't try to shoehorn Carlin into Jenna's classes, we're good.  I mean, I know it's the JP version of her Hex class... but... calling her an old woman's a bit much.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 27, April, 2015, 11:35:24 PM
LOL and i even edited my post to add a short comment... only to see that you already replied to what i wrote before it happened! Thanks a lot again guys!

Edit: THAT PYROKINETIC!! Now i get why I was having what weird feeling of something missing!


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 27, April, 2015, 11:55:45 PM
@Varden/Not liking Tyrant:  I know, right?  It soooo doesn't fit him!  Maybe as a final form of an alt class, but not his base class, no...

@Executor:  eh, doesn't really have a naval feel to it.  Seems out of place next to all the heavy seaworthy themes.  Alternatively, you could bump everything up and have Seaman be his Tier 1...


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 28, April, 2015, 12:08:32 AM
@Rolina: I don't really know where I pulled Executor from, but I liked the feel of the word as being above an Admiral. I just know that there's an appropriate word, fictional or otherwise, that would fit above Admiral. I really didn't like Seaman, it's kinda...boring and lazy. I'd rather stick Lieutenant in there.

OH! Or maybe like this:

Piers: Mariner - Lieutenant - Commander - Captain - Commodore - Admiral  (This is correct military rank ascension in English speaking navies.)

Huh, Seaman is actually the lowest naval rank. Maybe I'll re-evaluate. There's really no reason for Piers' classes to be stuck fast in military hierarchies if it doesn't flow. We're playing a fantasy game! Rule of cool definitely has a place here. Maybe Privateer first instead of Mariner?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 28, April, 2015, 12:12:30 AM
Eh, I just looked up Naval Ranks.  Seaman was the lowest, Fleet Admiral was the highest.  But I like your new suggestion more!  Let's go with that!


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 28, April, 2015, 12:19:55 AM
Executor, Commodore? I'm not sure which one you liked.

Give me a character: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 breakdown for Piers.


Edit: Gotcha, so it looks like this for me.

Piers: Privateer - Lieutenant - Commander - Captain - Commodore - Admiral  (Damn; you know, I did really, really like the sound of Executor, but you're right. It's not seaworthy.)


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 28, April, 2015, 12:29:21 AM
Commodore.  Maybe it's because I'm american, but sounds like it's an upgrade of Captain without being higher than Admiral.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 28, April, 2015, 12:53:25 AM
@Cale: Hoping you'll do another Character: class 1-6 breakdown post again.

Discussing this stuff was the most fun I've had on this forum yet.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 28, April, 2015, 01:03:33 AM
and i feel like i opened the pandora's box :P
Really glad I asked though, I would've missed a lot of things otherwise. Hope i'll be able to provide the result soon. Stay tuned!

Edit: quick suggestion. Try fitting in Sentinel and Lookout for Garet to replace the void left by baron? Sadly Defender, Protector, Guardian etc are all already taken.

Something like Guard Soldier Lookout Sentinel Phalanx Aegis.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 28, April, 2015, 02:39:49 AM
That sounds great for a class line, just not one for Garet.  While Isaac's classes are named for training as a Knight, and while Felix's make sense to be a mirror or reflection, Garet's are more designed to be the companion.  Don't move on it until you've let us know what you decided to do with Isaac's classes.

For example of what I'm talking about:

Swordsman ↔ Guard
Knight ↔ Soldier
Swordmaster ↔ Warrior
Lord ↔ Baron
Dragon Slayer ↔ Phalanx

In other words:

Sword ↔ Shield

While Felix is the Knave to Isaac's Knight, Garet is the Sword to Isaac's Shield.  Another reflection of sorts.  Don't move on Garet until you decide what to do with Isaac.  If you do my suggestion, I can fetch another FE shout out.

Edit:  HA HA!  One of the FE classes is called Baron - one Garet's JP classes.  What's its later incarnations known as?  General.  All the more fitting because Garet's earlier class is Soldier.

I thus propose

Guard → Soldier → Warrior → Baron → General → Phalanx

Because let's be honest here - Phalanx just sounds top tier.


Oh, I have a mechanical question - off chance you're able to make a counter-attack spell?  Something like Reflux, but in spell form?  


And to answer some other questions:  There's no insistence, so much as it is I'm just using the classes I know.  Mia is called Scribe in her second tier class in the US version, and as we are using US versions as a basis here, I'm just going by what I know.  Besides, her JP version doesn't use that either.  It's Water User → Priest → Bishop → Saint → Angel.

Finally(?) - no pandora's box.  While I vehemently disagree with the idea of making base classes 6 tier (since it defeats the point of the very lore-based reason for Symbiotic classes to be the only 6 tier ones), I find that coming up with hypothetical class lines is fun. ^-^


Splitting this off for easier comparisons:

Rogue → Scrapper → Knave → Mercenary → Dread Fighter → Conqueror
Squire → Swordsman → Knight → Swordmaster → Lord → Great Lord
Guard → Soldier → Warrior → Baron → General → Phalanx


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 28, April, 2015, 03:45:41 AM
@Rolina: I understand what you mean by companion classes with Garet and Isaac. Maybe we can keep the themes close?

Oh @#$%. I only put 5 classes down for Garet on my breakdown. I guess I'll fix that here.

I'll post both Isaac and Garet's classes so we can look at them next to each other.

Isaac: Squire - Knight - Gallant - Noble - Lord - Sovereign/Regent 
Garet: Guard - Soldier - Ombudsman - Steward(?) - Phalanx - Aegis

Ok, I honestly have no idea how to keep their classes relatively close. Does anyone have knowledge of Medieval European aristocracy? Maybe could find some useful titles in the support system of nobles in manors.

Oh, Rolina posted a breakdown. Okay, let's see. I'll post mine and my reasons, taking your post into account. I'll mark with a * class names that need changed with more input.

Felix: Rogue - Knave* - Outlaw - Mercenary* - Veteran - Conqueror

Scrapper instead of Outlaw, Knave moved up a tier, and Veteran's gone (compared to mine). Aww, I really liked Veteran and Outlaw. Your class names have much more of an edge than mine do. I guess I don't see Felix as the same Chaotic Good character you do. I always figured he was a textbook Neutral Good: Doing his best to follow the law of the land he's currently in because he's trying to save the world from itself. But isn't exactly a free spirit, he's not a trickster. He uses the systems in place in order to get the results he needs. Look at Kibombo, he didn't trick Akafubu into giving up the Orb, he helped Akafubu get what he wanted, and in turn, we got what we wanted. I'm going to stick with the class progression I set up for Felix for these reasons, but I know that it needs changed to reflect Felix as an individual who overcomes challenges, but he's not really a mercenary kind of person. Do you ever browse TVTropes? Felix strikes me as a Determinator kind of person.

Isaac: Squire - Knight - Gallant - Noble* - Lord - Sovereign

Knight bumped up a class and Gallant, Noble, and Sovereign got dropped for Swordsman, Swordmaster, and Great Lord. Well, Isaac does use axes and maces too (don't hit me) but I like the emphasis on swordsmanship as Isaac's craft. He's come of age on a very martial and combat-oriented journey. Maybe my titles didn't emphasize exactly how much fighting really gets done, but that's not everything on the journey. I probably need more terms that convey both martial prowess and high standing. Maybe the French nobility has something good, like Chevalier? I also didn't like Overlord with Lord sitting right behind it.

Garet: Guard - Soldier - Warrior - Baron/Ombudsman* - General - Aegis

So, went with a Fire Emblem title class title, hmm? Generals always were one of my favorite classes; they took punishment way too well for the damage they could dish back and most of the time their RES wasn't low enough to try and drop em with magic. They were great tanks...Golden Sun, yeah. If we keep Noble for Isaac, we can probably keep Baron for Garet, though if a really nice sounding word similar to Sentinel or Seneschal or something like that pops up, I'll switch em both at once. Between Aegis and Phalanx, I like Aegis more; while it's just a term for a shield, phalanx is a formation and we aren't fighting in large groups.

Solid points, I just wish I had a better knowledge of medieval European titles, both military and noble. I know the words we want are hidden in there. 


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 28, April, 2015, 11:52:14 AM
Quick answers/questions.

General is already taken.
Religious in place of Scribe?
Reflux should be viable as a spell.
Chavalier, Cavalier, Knight etc is that they all translate to the same word in italian so it's kind of an issue for me.
I'm almost done. I left Ivan for last cause he should be pretty easy.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 28, April, 2015, 03:55:56 PM
Ok.

1. Damn.
2.Religious doesn't work in English well, since it's an adjective. Maybe something like Curator?
3. Cool. Dunno how to balance it though.
4. Are there any Italian terms we could just shove into the english version? We really have no problem grabbing terms from other languages given the stuff like Dragoon, Miko, and Sybil in this game. Maybe something like Legionary/Legionarius?

Let us know what you pick. Ultimately, it's your call.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 28, April, 2015, 04:25:51 PM
Ok.

1. Damn.
2.Religious doesn't work in English well, since it's an adjective. Maybe something like Curator?
3. Cool. Dunno how to balance it though.
4. Are there any Italian terms we could just shove into the english version? We really have no problem grabbing terms from other languages given the stuff like Dragoon, Miko, and Sybil in this game. Maybe something like Legionary/Legionarius?

Let us know what you pick. Ultimately, it's your call.

2. Your pick. Anything church-related fits better than Scribe IMO.
3. I don't want to put it in, Rolina just asked.
4. I'd rather use them as a last resort thing. They really don't blend well.

Despite what i said i'm having some issues with ivan, cause Wizard, Mage, Magician, Magus etc all translate to the same word and Magister isn't even magic related (it's more like a university thing). That leaves me with one of those 4, Enchanter, Archmage and Sorcerer... so unless i a nice idea pops up i'll probably have to shove illusionist back in. At least in the japanese version it exists after all.

My pick after reading again and again those 2 pages of posts is:

Isaac: Squire - Knight - Gallant - Noble - Lord - Sovereign
Garet: Guard - Soldier - Warrior - Baron - Phalanx - Aegis
Ivan: Bolt User - Magician - Illusionist* - Enchanter - Archmage - Sorcerer
Mia: Water User - Religious* - Cleric - Saint - Angel - Seraph

Felix: Rogue - Knave - Outlaw - Mercenary - Veteran - Conqueror
Jenna: Flame User - Witch - Hex - Pyrokinetic - Fire Master - Incendiary
Sheba: Wind User - Sybil - Mystic - Priestess - Pythia - Prophet
Piers: Mariner - Lieutenant - Commander - Captain - Commodore - Admiral

* = Pending.

EDIT: suggestion for Mia. Chaplain?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 28, April, 2015, 10:02:59 PM
Actually, chaplain isn't bad. It's growing on me.

What do you think about ecclesiast, evangelist, missionary, or vicar? That's the best Google has to give. Lemme know how you feel about those.

Ivan: Charmer, Forecaster, Occultist, Maven, Thaumaturge, Virtuoso. I dunno, I'm pretty much tapped out for terms and the suggestions I gave may work.

I just want to say how good Sheba's class series is. They flow well, they have historical origins, and they're accurate. 


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 29, April, 2015, 01:48:40 AM
Also, sorry for double posting but I could have sworn that I saw somewhere that you had Felix's dialogue changed in the Trial Road scene from "Why?" to "?". I just wanted to say that it is still showing up as "Why?".

If that isn't an issue, just lemme know.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 29, April, 2015, 01:27:16 PM
Actually, chaplain isn't bad. It's growing on me.

What do you think about ecclesiast, evangelist, missionary, or vicar? That's the best Google has to give. Lemme know how you feel about those.

Ivan: Charmer, Forecaster, Occultist, Maven, Thaumaturge, Virtuoso. I dunno, I'm pretty much tapped out for terms and the suggestions I gave may work.

I think Ivan is better left off as it is, and just try to fill the gap. Regarding Mia... I'd rather use Officiant and i don't really get why it doesn't work for you guys. So let's leave it pending for now.

Also, sorry for double posting but I could have sworn that I saw somewhere that you had Felix's dialogue changed in the Trial Road scene from "Why?" to "?". I just wanted to say that it is still showing up as "Why?".

If that isn't an issue, just lemme know.

actually i never changed that. the only dialogue line i changed in both games is the "felix must unlock the power" at the beginning of Broken Seal.



Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 29, April, 2015, 07:48:17 PM
For Mia, do what you have to. It's not like you pulled Officiant from thin air; it was already in the game.

Names look fine to me. There were so many class renames anyways that I'm sure it will all flow just fine.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 29, April, 2015, 11:08:56 PM
For Mia, do what you have to. It's not like you pulled Officiant from thin air; it was already in the game.
Ehm... no. I DID pull it out of thin air.
jp mia is water user, priest, bishop, saint, angel
us mia is water seer, scribe, cleric, paragon, angel.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 29, April, 2015, 11:52:06 PM
Really? I could have sworn it was a class in vanilla. I guess I didn't look that hard or double-check myself.

I'm still a fan of Chaplain, personally.

@Rolina: You have any more ideas?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 01, May, 2015, 12:38:27 AM
I've got plenty, though not necessarily for the GS base classes.  I'm content to leave them as they were localized, personally.


Edit:  I take it back.  I don't like illusionist for Ivan - I don't think it fits his character.  Maybe as an alt-class, but as a main?  He's more of a traditionalist mage, not a specialist in a particular school of spellcraft.

@Mia:  Acolyte.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 01, May, 2015, 07:26:20 PM
I think Acolyte is in use already. As one of the Mars/Jupiter classes, I think? Need to check the class spreadsheet.

Yep, it's in use.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 01, May, 2015, 08:22:16 PM
I think Acolyte is in use already. As one of the Mars/Jupiter classes.
Exactly


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 02, May, 2015, 01:36:38 AM
...And?

Classes and spells share names all the time.  Acolyte is religious, and below cleric.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 02, May, 2015, 08:59:34 AM
Classes and spells share names all the time.  Acolyte is religious, and below cleric.
Well, just not in this mod. I made a point long ago of giving each set of classes unique names and i it took me quite some time to accomplish that, so i won't be making an exception now. And officiant is pretty much the same... either right below or directly after, but certainly moving cleric down by 1 isn't an issue.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 02, May, 2015, 02:52:36 PM
I'm still not sure what the problem with the default names were, to be honest.  At least for base classes, that is...


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 02, May, 2015, 03:20:43 PM
Regarding Mia... I never said i was against using Priest and/or Bishop... i just never mentioned them cause they always felt too "male" to me (especially Bishop)... but if you prefer one of those to officiant, which is my favorite pick atm, ok then.

Regarding Ivan, Illusionist actually IS one of his default names, but i agree with you that it seems a bit out of place with the others. The problem is that I sort of finished the synonyms of mage (like i already said in previous posts) so, reluctantly, i had to mention it again as a last resort thing.

The others are finished.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 02, May, 2015, 04:48:39 PM
I mean, using default names for base classes, period.  Well, save for Felix and Sheba, of course...


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 02, May, 2015, 05:04:01 PM
I mean, using default names for base classes, period.  Well, save for Felix and Sheba, of course...
Because if something can be improved... why not?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 02, May, 2015, 08:56:15 PM
Well, there's a difference between can be, and needs to be. :P

Can base classes be improved?  Sure.  Tie them closer to stats, and maybe boost them by 5% across the board (save luck) if that isn't enough.  Add a cover/counter spell to garet (that reflux effect spell), give ailments better success rates and make delusion a legit threat (for Ivan), make Pier's base class use water spells instead of ice, and for the most part you'll be good.  The names don't really need to be changed, save for Felix and Sheba.

Basically, my approach is "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". :3


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 02, May, 2015, 10:25:46 PM
Well, there's a difference between can be, and needs to be. :P

Can base classes be improved?  Sure.  Tie them closer to stats, and maybe boost them by 5% across the board (save luck) if that isn't enough.  Add a cover/counter spell to garet (that reflux effect spell), give ailments better success rates and make delusion a legit threat (for Ivan), make Pier's base class use water spells instead of ice, and for the most part you'll be good.  The names don't really need to be changed, save for Felix and Sheba.

Basically, my approach is "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". :3
Piers/Water done, 5% boost done.
Cover/Counter won't happen in the foreseeable future cause i lack the icon (i'd use a red reflect).
What about delusion and Ivan?

For the names... well it changes depending on what you consider being "broke". A wrong translation can be broke or be acceptable. Depending on the context, you sometimes HAVE TO change a term to something entirely different.
Changing Orochi to Serpent is not "wrong" at first sight, but it becomes outright idiotic the moment you add the entire izumo setting to the equation.
Changing all that Senshi/Kenshi/Mahokenshi/Mahosenshi class names thing to Squire/Guard/Apprentice/Page is wrong, but is not "broke" cause it would be impossible to replicate into another language properly so a change is acceptable and even advised.
Dragonslayer and Lord are both perfect translations (they're written in katakana after all...) but one of them has to go cause they don't really blend well together. Just like Scribe with Angel.
Hope I made my point... This is just how I look at things. :)


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 03, May, 2015, 04:51:44 AM
Wait, icons are all you need for that?  Pfft, I do those all the freaking time!  Name the spell and describe what what you think it should look like.  I'll make a set for ya.

Ivan's a support class more than he is an offensive class.  The best thing you can do to help support classes is to make sure their supports matter.  Delusion's problem is that it only affects the attack command.  Give it a 33% drop to the accuracy of all abilities, and suddenly it becomes a decent ailment.  Making it so that break isn't auto-hit, and has a chance to fail helps to keep his buffs up.  Increasing the infliction rate of effect only spells also works well to buff his class (the High/Mid/Low infliction rate for each ailment we discussed earlier).  Support classes are improved simply by making support more worthwhile.

Amusingly, another thing you can do is on the enemy's end.  Making foes stronger encourages players to do more than just "damage and kill" strategies - inflicting paralysis to a target or sleep to a few if they're particularly troublesome could add an element to strategy that support classes can capitalize on.  Finding ways to inflict break-type effects without just giving all the bosses break would be a good idea as well - for example, an attack that damages a target and has a chance to inflict the break effect (at a lower likelyhood of infliction compared to the normal spell, of course).  You've already done a pretty good job so far from what I've seen, though I'm still too early to where Ivan makes his switch from offensive caster to support caster.  I can't give a good estimate to how well his class has upgraded until then.


When it comes to the base class names, those are the only thing that I wouldn't change.  The main reason here is the associations.  People have come to see these characters with certain classes, which is why even though I dislike Jenna with the class name of Justice, I'd leave it alone.  You're not wrong in changing it, it's just a difference in philosophy the two of us have.  I'm all for the name changes in the alt-classes, though.  Enough changes are made to those that previous associations may do more harm than good.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 03, May, 2015, 06:36:35 AM
Doing statistical class alterations is beyond what I'm willing to try and get involved in for patch feedback. Beyond stating a case for the 'feel' and relative power of some classes, I'm really just going along for the ride in terms of balance and giving my feedback where I feel appropriate. I'll throw my opinions out for the non-numerical stuff, but on the whole, I'm not looking to give any advice on changing numbers, so I won't.

Same thing with the names: I've given my opinions and I'll take the outcome.

I'm currently post-Reunion and completed Magma Rock. Is there anything you'd like specific feedback on? I believe my last feedback post is sometime before Lemuria.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 03, May, 2015, 04:02:35 PM
Quote
Wait, icons are all you need for that?  Pfft, I do those all the freaking time!  Name the spell and describe what what you think it should look like.  I'll make a set for ya.
If you can also put them back in the game we're set. I know how to edit icons as well, what is hindering me is the compression.

Quote
Ivan's a support class more than he is an offensive class.  The best thing you can do to help support classes is to make sure their supports matter.  Delusion's problem is that it only affects the attack command.  Give it a 33% drop to the accuracy of all abilities, and suddenly it becomes a decent ailment.  Making it so that break isn't auto-hit, and has a chance to fail helps to keep his buffs up.  Increasing the infliction rate of effect only spells also works well to buff his class (the High/Mid/Low infliction rate for each ailment we discussed earlier).  Support classes are improved simply by making support more worthwhile.
I'd like to do it too, as well as changing haunt, death curse to 4 turns in GS, ailment recovery rate formula etc... but i don't know the code that deeply.

Quote
When it comes to the base class names, those are the only thing that I wouldn't change.  The main reason here is the associations.  People have come to see these characters with certain classes, which is why even though I dislike Jenna with the class name of Justice, I'd leave it alone.  You're not wrong in changing it, it's just a difference in philosophy the two of us have.  I'm all for the name changes in the alt-classes, though.  Enough changes are made to those that previous associations may do more harm than good.
Y' know, i've worked on other games' "retranslation" a few times, and i've witnessed many other people doing so. Hurting the fanbase's feelings by changing what they grew attached to is a constant issue that has to be dealt with every single time, and i really appreciate the fact that you're wise enough to recognize the problem for what it truly is. No one likes doing this the first times but everyone eventually overcomes that, both the gamers and the hackers.

I'm currently post-Reunion and completed Magma Rock. Is there anything you'd like specific feedback on? I believe my last feedback post is sometime before Lemuria.
Report on anything you want to report on. I haven't reached that part of the game myself since i released the hack due to lack of free time, so i really don't know what i could ask you. Maybe the most sensitive things like superbosses, or even the battle atop Jup Lighthouse, but other than that i leave it up to you.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 03, May, 2015, 09:08:53 PM
@Caledor: Ok, I'll try and make a feedback post that isn't just rambling (compared to my Air's Rock post. I over-stepped a bit there.) It'll probably be a bit haphazard.

If possible, you should go through your item descriptions and synchronize the wording or tenses for some effects. For example, Felix right now has the Minerva Helm (Raises PP), Titan Gloves (Boost Earth Power), Chronos Mail (Boosts HP), Dragon Boots (Boost Resist), and the Golden Shirt (Boosts HP). The Silkl Bustier has Boosts PP, instead of Raises PP. Sheba has the Crown of Glory (Restores PP) and the Adept Ring (Replenishes PP). Piers has the Dragon Scales (Resists Fire) and the Fur Boots (Resist Water). The Lucky Medal is "Medal for use in A special fountain; the Game Ticket is "Ticket for use in special game" 
The Warrior's Helm (Boosts Earth power) and the Golden Ring (Boosts elemental Power). Spirit Gloves is Boost PP. I hope you don't think this is nitpicky.

I was initially surprised by the level of nerfs the Masamune took. I was lucky enough for Sunshine to craft a Mythril Blade out of the Silver you get in Loho, and those weapons were relatively equal in vanilla, with Masamune having a much better unleash. I know that a lot of Masamune's power was shifted into its +AGI (which is totally fine, considering the power its unleash has) and I like the change.

The cursed equipment I have right now is crazy strong. That's good.

I haven't run into a lot of the crafted equipment yet, but I'm interested to see what the comparisons look like for a lot of the endgame items. Some of the changes you made to items shifted a lot of the power from ATK to other facets, like +AGI on the Masamune or the + :MarsStar: PWR and +MaxPP on the Salamander Rod. Those other factors are what give the equipment in Golden Sun a soul; the equipment really becomes unique and feels like in belongs in the GS world. Think of the Festival Happi. The +Luck changes the face of the item completely and it becomes a unique part of Izumo. (This particular part of the Golden Sun universe was one of the biggest things I was looking forward to in Golden Sun 4 since I assumed they would add Dark :Luna: and Light :Sol: Adepts. Something like Phaeton's Blade, Hypnos' Blade, the SOL blade, the DARKsword and the Dark Matter equipment take on a new life when its origin has a stake in the GS universe.)

Psynergy still feels really strong, even this late in game. Especially since the casters really aren't doing damage with attacking, unless you get lucky and they unleash. Psynergy is safe and AoE for casters. Healing is crazy expensive, and I'm actually kind of afraid that when I run into the superbosses, my healer will get wiped and I won't be able to revive them and heal everyone fast enough before I get wiped.









Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 03, May, 2015, 09:24:29 PM
Quote
[...]
I hope you don't think this is nitpicky.
Not at all. It was immensely useful and i will certainly fix them.

Quote
I was initially surprised by the level of nerfs the Masamune took.
Couldn't be helped. The only thing you need to access the Masamune is Force, which is available right after you light Jup Lighthouse. This means that the Masamune can't be much stronger than the Phaeton's Blade, which is obtained inside the lighthouse.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 03, May, 2015, 10:05:21 PM
I'm pretty much of the same opinion as you on the issue. That's why I'm really looking forward to seeing the changes on the endgame equipment. I'm generally of the opinion that the crafted weapons should be comparatively stronger than their alternatives, and that the more difficult equipment in general is to obtain, the stronger it should be. The Sol Blade is an outlier for that, but the devs for Golden Sun really wanted to make sure everyone got the ultimate weapon, which is fine.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 03, May, 2015, 11:42:29 PM
Quote
Wait, icons are all you need for that?  Pfft, I do those all the freaking time!  Name the spell and describe what what you think it should look like.  I'll make a set for ya.
If you can also put them back in the game we're set. I know how to edit icons as well, what is hindering me is the compression.

I think Lord Squirtle knows something about it.  Contact him about adding new icons to the game.  It's one of the things I hope we can get into a new version of the editor, if someone actually makes a new one.

@Hurting Feelings:  That's not at all something I care about.  If I did, I'd not rework Piers class so it makes god damned sense for a mariner.  I'm more worried about potential confusion it may cause.

@Dark and Light: ...don't get me started on that.  Seriously, we have a whole thread to debate dark and light adepts and why they make no god damned sense for GS.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 04, May, 2015, 12:20:34 AM
@Dark and Light: I didn't really care what kind of sense they made in the context of the first two games. And, apparently, neither did Camelot. I was pumped as @#$% to see how they were going to work the concept into the next game; I don't really care if it would have worked all that well as long as it had some kind of redeeming factor and added something to the series as a whole.

Adding Dark and Light Adepts would have been an innovation that was sorely lacking in Dark Dawn. Outside of presenting a very in-your-face kind of relationship with the concept of death, Dark Dawn really didn't add anything new in terms of gameplay and scope, and what they did to the lore is a mess. I wanted them to add Dark and Light Adepts and I wanted it to work well. But I wanted a lot of things out of Camelot that didn't come to pass. They made a really half-assed Golden Sun game, shoved 8 characters into the story when they only needed 4, and generally made a mess of the world the first two games built. Also, the whole game takes place on the bottom screen of the DS, and whoever made that decision should have been punched. They pretty much set the bar for graphics on the GBA and they dumped Dark Dawn in our laps.

Dark and Light Adepts would have been cool if they'd done it well. That's a big, fat IF.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 04, May, 2015, 12:24:14 AM
The problem is that they couldn't be bothered to go the distance.  Both the Pro-Fundament and Anti-Fundament camps got pissed off because yeah, they're things, but... the hell are they?  Even the so-called Dark Adepts didn't have a spell to their name.  For all the fuss, it was over a whole lot of nothing.  I'm firmly in the Anti-Fundament camp, but even I would have preferred a full and proper transfer to a 6-element system than the half-hearted THING we got in DD... =_=

Still, let's take any more discussion of this to proper thread.  I don't wanna get in trouble for going off topic.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 04, May, 2015, 12:33:34 AM
No problem.

@Caledor: You're going to want to make the Knight's Greave and Silver Greave into "Greaves" plural. Much like the Ninja Sandals and the Leather Boots. Cool additions, by the way, just grabbed the Silver Greaves.

We'll never know why the devs cut the some of those items.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 04, May, 2015, 07:52:01 PM
Alright, you got me. I give up. What's the deal with the Sentinel? The guy is completely ridiculous. And I really don't want to have to use the only truly foolproof strategy in the game (against anything that can't hit Djinn) which is alternating Damage Reduction Djinn with 2 people, healing with 1, and summoning with the other.

1. I can't outrun his RES lowering move with Resist, since his hits for -40 and mine is +20 AoE. Thus, ignoring his RES lowering seems to be the plan.

2. I can't open with Steam, Resist, Resist, Rime, because the Psynergy seal is off in two turns and he spends those turns using Mind Crush 3 times. Then Break eventually.

3. I can't seal away his RES lowering move, since sealing his Psynergy actually causes him to basically do nothing but Mind Crush.

4. I can't try to out-DPS him with hard-hitting Psynergy, since he's immune.

Thus, the current strategy of alternating Flash and Shade between two people (since you can't Break or RES-lower the damage reduction away) and having Felix run through 4 Djinn and cast Judgement. I'm currently in the 45th minute of the battle. Please tell me there's some secret strategy that I missed and that the Sentinel is actually super-vulnerable to Poison, or you can Haunt him, or the Trident removes his Psynergy shield, or something. Cuz I'm really out of ideas beyond summon-rushing or Sol Blade-spamming.  



 


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 04, May, 2015, 08:14:43 PM
Alright, you got me. I give up. What's the deal with the Sentinel? The guy is completely ridiculous. And I really don't want to have to use the only truly foolproof strategy in the game (against anything that can't hit Djinn) which is alternating Damage Reduction Djinn with 2 people, healing with 1, and summoning with the other.

1. I can't outrun his RES lowering move with Resist, since his hits for -40 and mine is +20 AoE. Thus, ignoring his RES lowering seems to be the plan.

2. I can't open with Steam, Resist, Resist, Rime, because the Psynergy seal is off in two turns and he spends those turns using Mind Crush 3 times. Then Break eventually.

3. I can't seal away his RES lowering move, since sealing his Psynergy actually causes him to basically do nothing but Mind Crush.

4. I can't try to out-DPS him with hard-hitting Psynergy, since he's immune.

Thus, the current strategy of alternating Flash and Shade between two people (since you can't Break or RES-lower the damage reduction away) and having Felix run through 4 Djinn and cast Judgement. I'm currently in the 45th minute of the battle. Please tell me there's some secret strategy that I missed and that the Sentinel is actually super-vulnerable to Poison, or you can Haunt him, or the Trident removes his Psynergy shield, or something. Cuz I'm really out of ideas beyond summon-rushing or Sol Blade-spamming.
Very interesting. Could you upload your save somewhere? I want to try fighting him myself.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 04, May, 2015, 08:37:07 PM
Sure, Google Drive link: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0nhGYVISYEQZmlxbDVWVXJFQnc/view?usp=sharing

File should be Golden Sun - The Lost Age - Rebalanced.sav

Pretty sure .sav is the right format.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: leaf on 04, May, 2015, 09:49:05 PM
...why did you swap the names of corona and fever? That @#$% is beyond confusing.

edit: Just beat sentinel on your file. I used base classes and just did a basic djinn -> summon strat, with either mia or jenna constantly healing. Probably would've been wise to put a couple djinn on standby for them before the battle, but I was trying to take it raw, so everyone went in with fully set djinn. My first party (isaac's party) actually got wiped out about halfway through the battle, which caught me by surprise. I wasn't planning on having to use the second party at all, so they were woefully underequipped. I didn't even have a weapon on felix, so I ended up relying on iron/meld/mold/petra/mud, which are all useful even without an atk stat. And of course, summons did by far the majority of the damage. Despite my horrid preparations on felix's party, I'd say the fight actually got easier when it switched to them, since I could pump out eclipse reliably while still having constant heals up.

A couple notes: The mercury djinn that inflict debuffs are amazing and should be used whenever possible (gel, chill, sour, etc). Eclipse can also drop sentinel's atk, which gives suitable breathing room against mind crush. Rime and luff are useless; they encourage him to spam his strongest attack, which hurts more than it helps. The psynergy isn't really a threat as long as you're spamming aoe heals every turn, so just keep his atk down and you win easy.



Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 04, May, 2015, 10:33:24 PM
@VardenSalad. Won with my favorite class setup. Put all the offensive weight on the Sol Blade weilder, spam aoe healing, bait him into losing a turn to Splash by buffing Isaac/Felix's attack, hide behind granite etc when things start to go bad... usual stuff. As a side note I suffered 6 deaths (the 3 girls, 2 each, 4 revived at the end of the battle), no party wipes, isaac was swapped out due to having finished his PP to buffing and healing, summoned 2 times: Ramses and Zagan.

The class setup is:
Isaac - Warlord
Garet - Shogun
Ivan - Wise
Mia - Pure Mage
Felix - Chaos Lord <---- Put Sol Blade here, + all crits increasing equipment.
Jenna - Mystic Miko
Sheba - Fateweaver
Piers - Sea Lord

...why did you swap the names of corona and fever? That @#$% is beyond confusing.
The english translators swapped them the in the first place. I merely restored things to how they should've been from the start.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: leaf on 04, May, 2015, 10:43:03 PM
Quote
The english translators swapped them the in the first place. I merely restored things to how they should've been from the start.
Don't do that. It's confusing as hell. Fever does damage. Corona buffs defense. That's how it's always been for any english speaking player of GS. I thought I had gone crazy when I selected corona and the cursor suddenly was targeting sentinel instead of my party. Then imagine my surprise when I try to use fever and suddenly my party is selected. There was never any need to change this. Especially when a djinni named "fever" inflicting delusion actually makes some amount of sense, and "corona" could be just about anything. It'd be one thing if it was an obvious error, but it isn't. If you didn't know ahead of time that the english team had swapped the names, you wouldn't have any reason to question it.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 04, May, 2015, 11:00:11 PM
Gonna side with Leaf on the Djinn thing. If the original way they translated hadn't already made sense, you might have grounds to change it.

For Sentinel, I knew it was only going to be tough, I just think I underestimated him completely. Holy moly, the first fight I Rime'd him and he proceeded to kill Jenna with 3 straight Mind Crushes, caught me totally off guard. I'll admit that this will be my first run-through of the superbosses doing something other than summon-rushing, so forgive my whiny outburst. Getting to the end of the series and then walking all over the superbosses defeats the whole point.  

I'm glad other people got a file to poke around the superbosses; Islet Cave is the first optional dungeon I've been to, so anyone could play to the end if they wanted. Pretty sure the only item I didn't go out of my way to grab is the Prophet's Hat, so you can grab whatever set-up you'd like (to an extent, still gonna have to do some crafting).

@Caledor: The Diamond Mace is pretty cool. Can you give me the breakdown of its unleash? I know it stuns and the green color suggests Venus-type?  


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 04, May, 2015, 11:56:28 PM
...why did you swap the names of corona and fever? That @#$% is beyond confusing.

HA!  Called it!  Sometimes, it's just best to go with what people are familiar with. :3

What applied to my statement with classes applies here - sometimes, changes aren't necessary - they just make things confusing for no good reason.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 05, May, 2015, 12:03:21 AM
Gottem. Man, it got pretty scary at some points. I think creative uses of Lull from Sea Lord Piers played a big part, since I could get a full round in to heal if HP got crazy low before calling a truce.

Pretty tricky switching Sentinel's strength from crushing armor to crushing resistances. Nice job keeping the feel of the original while ramping up the difficulty of the engagement.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 05, May, 2015, 12:13:11 AM
...why did you swap the names of corona and fever? That @#$% is beyond confusing.

HA!  Called it!  Sometimes, it's just best to go with what people are familiar with. :3

What applied to my statement with classes applies here - sometimes, changes aren't necessary - they just make things confusing for no good reason.
That, or people could just spend some time reading the list of name changes i wrote, in order to avoid said confusion. It's not like I tried to troll anyone.

@VardenSalad. Maces always increase power of the element they unleash, so Jupiter. moreover, the Diamond mace is the Vajra Mace from Dark Dawn. I just couldn't name it Vajra due to the annoying text compression.
About Sentinel, he's the Jupiter superboss, he casts like there's no tomorrow and has a single physical attack. I thought debuffing resistance was more fitting for him. Eagerly waiting for your comments on Star Magician now... Valukar is pretty much the same, just a bit scarier.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 05, May, 2015, 12:29:29 AM
Ahh, I shoulda checked the details of the mace before posting.

Star Magician is definitely my favorite enemy in Golden Sun. I remember enjoying the changes Dark Dawn made it him, but it's been a while. I thought he was an extremely interesting enemy and I expect his fight to be challenging, and the same but different. That's the hallmark of good modding.

Time to grind Dark Matters.



Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Salanewt on 05, May, 2015, 12:32:10 AM
I don't really want to give too much input until I actually try these hacks out (want to take care of a couple things first), but I think I agree with the others on the naming thing. Not for the same reason though, and this is really the only one I have read that sticks out. The reason why is because a fever is usually associated with illness, and sick people are often somewhat weaker than healthier individuals; doesn't really make a lot of sense for it to do the opposite of what a fever normally signifies. On the other hand, corona (which is more or less the plasma around the sun) doesn't really strike me as something overly damaging either. I can see the delusion thing, but I see that more with having an illness that may or may not be contagious. Plus, corona is something that envelopes the sun, which also feels like something of a defensive property...

Totally up to you, of course.


Ditto with the Star Magician thing, I am really looking forward to fighting it in this hack.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 05, May, 2015, 01:46:21 AM
Ok, why is every single cursed item really, really good? What am I supposed to do with 6 really, really good (and 2 pretty darn good) cursed items when I only have one Angel's Ring? It's awesome.

I'm kinda surprised the Darksword didn't get additional attributes, although it is hard to argue with the highest ATK in the game.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: leaf on 05, May, 2015, 02:15:52 AM
Oh yeah... you were concerned about base classes being underpowered at endgame, right? After fighting sentinel in base classes, I can safely say that base classes aren't underpowered in the least. If I were to run with strictly base classes, I'd probably use piers+jenna as core, with the venus/jupiter adepts being pretty interchangeable. Because offensive mercury djinn get by far the best secondary effects in the game, felix's party is already near optimized in this respect. I think ivan+isaac fill the remaining slots better than sheba+felix, for extra access to revive and the impact psynergy being more useful on a jupiter adept than venus, but vital boon is really strong, so there's a fair tradeoff there. Once you factor in putting the breath djinni on ivan, or the quartz djinni on felix, there isn't really that big of a difference either way.

Base classes do one thing very well: djinn -> summon. Technically, dual classes can do it too, but it requires a bit more planning and is less user friendly. You have to alternate using the djinn of your primary and alt elements, since if you use two primary or two alt, you'll drop two full tiers; this means on no later than the third djinni, you'll have dropped two tiers with dual classes, but only after the fourth djinni with base classes. On the other hand, dual classes have better stats with 5 set djinn than base classes do, so that's the tradeoff.

Quote
That, or people could just spend some time reading the list of name changes i wrote, in order to avoid said confusion. It's not like I tried to troll anyone.
You've had 4 out of 4 people tell you that swapping corona/fever is a bad idea now. Could you at least *try* to see why going with the original localization is sometimes better than going with what may or may not be technically "correct?" Most of the other changes to localization you made don't make a big difference for conventional gameplay, but this is definitely a case where it does. Even after knowing they're swapped, it still takes conscious effort to remember that they are, to not use the wrong djinni accidentally.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 05, May, 2015, 11:49:20 AM
Remember what I said about unnecessary changes.  Sometimes, it's better to go with what people are familiar with than what the "originals" did.  What's more, you didn't even commit.  Flint isn't Solo, and Echo isn't Duo.  Many of the JP names just aren't used.  Not only do you have expectations working against you, you also have a lack of consistency. 


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 05, May, 2015, 02:38:52 PM
Guys... I could seriously keep argumenting this naming thing again and again, but I'm really getting tired of reading answers that could be summed up as "I'm used to the old names", or things that DO actually make sense like what Lord Squirtle said, but that is really unlikely that the localization team even considered, when paired with the chance that they just messed up two names that are close to each other.

So: for v1.30 the names will be swapped again, but please, let's all move forward. I don't want to see this topic being brought up ever again.

Quote
Ok, why is every single cursed item really, really good? What am I supposed to do with 6 really, really good (and 2 pretty darn good) cursed items when I only have one Angel's Ring? It's awesome.

I'm kinda surprised the Darksword didn't get additional attributes, although it is hard to argue with the highest ATK in the game.
Glad you like them, it's exactly the reaction i was hoping to see: regretting having to let go some of those items. Too bad only one of them is equippable by mages... this usually makes player favor the warrior set. If icon tweaking becomes reality someday, one of the things i plan to do is to put the Stealth Armor properties into the Demon Mail, and make the Stealth Armor itself a Robe.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 05, May, 2015, 04:17:47 PM
I actually want to know if anyone went further on the save file. Everyone basically got a free pass to the endgame.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: JamietheFlameUser on 05, May, 2015, 04:22:44 PM
...why did you swap the names of corona and fever? That @#$% is beyond confusing.

HA!  Called it!  Sometimes, it's just best to go with what people are familiar with. :3

What applied to my statement with classes applies here - sometimes, changes aren't necessary - they just make things confusing for no good reason.
That, or people could just spend some time reading the list of name changes i wrote, in order to avoid said confusion. It's not like I tried to troll anyone.

@VardenSalad. Maces always increase power of the element they unleash, so Jupiter. moreover, the Diamond mace is the Vajra Mace from Dark Dawn. I just couldn't name it Vajra due to the annoying text compression.
About Sentinel, he's the Jupiter superboss, he casts like there's no tomorrow and has a single physical attack. I thought debuffing resistance was more fitting for him. Eagerly waiting for your comments on Star Magician now... Valukar is pretty much the same, just a bit scarier.
If the Diamond Mace is actually the Vajra Mace, then shouldn't its unleash be a blast of lightning? I'd be personally inclined to recycle the animation from Lightning Breath to properly represent Final Nemesis. I don't know what its unleash effect actually looks like, but since they're saying it looks Venus-aligned I'm hazarding a guess at something green, yellow, or brown in colour.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 05, May, 2015, 05:35:14 PM
It's a green circular ring emanating from the enemy. I think I have Sheba equipped with it in the .sav.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 05, May, 2015, 05:37:56 PM
It's supernova from the old Stellar axe. I used plasma before switching to supernova though, but thunder breath sound like a nice idea ad well

EDIT. Just tried. Sadly thunder breath doesn't work well


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 05, May, 2015, 06:31:08 PM
Try the Stun Jip animation from Valukar. Maybe it's not what you're looking for. Could always use Bolt, I guess.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: JamietheFlameUser on 05, May, 2015, 06:34:23 PM
I think Thunder Breath would work if it didn't attach the Attack animation to it. If you used an empty slot for the unleash to get a casting animation instead of a regular attack, it looks pretty good I think. With Felix using the animation at least, it looks like the lightning emanates from his hand. (I know this because I used it in one of my old hacks.)


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 05, May, 2015, 06:39:54 PM
I think Thunder Breath would work if it didn't attach the Attack animation to it. If you used an empty slot for the unleash to get a casting animation instead of a regular attack, it looks pretty good I think. With Felix using the animation at least, it looks like the lightning emanates from his hand. (I know this because I used it in one of my old hacks.)

O.o you're right! I Never knew the animation was linked to the ID of the attack. Thanks twice then, Jamie! Consider it in for next version.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Salanewt on 05, May, 2015, 07:00:26 PM
For the most part, but it's actually super easy to change. This topic (http://forum.goldensunhacking.net/index.php?topic=1416.0) may be a brief, but helpful read on why certain abilities are different from others (i.e. Gaia fading the screen, or even Megaera boosting the party's attack using Impact; every ability has a single byte that changes this). I think there may also be some info on changing the Trainer's Whip monster spells, but I get the feeling you aren't terribly interested in that.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Exore The Mighty on 07, May, 2015, 04:29:48 AM
Okay, I actually have almost beaten the game, but I put it aside for a few weeks with finals, and because honestly the effort of getting all the crafted items bored me with golden sun.  I have all of the endgame items for all characters, so, Varden, if you want me to make a list of them, I can.  I just didn't want to post this a few weeks ago and spoil the fun.  =P
Oh, and as for staying in base classes vs. switching classes, I've always liked using the base classes, just because to me summons are such an integral part of the game.  I like beating bosses with djinn and summons, rather than just spamming spells all the time.  That's why I wanted to beat Dullahan in base classes, with summon rushing if need-be, but also through beat-down methods.  I just hate level grinding on golden sun...


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 07, May, 2015, 07:34:16 PM
Since the additional tier to mono elementals are still a long way from being implemented and recent post manifested doubts regarding their usefulness, I released v1.23 with the other announced changes.

@Varden: Tell me if you find other discrepancies in the game text. BTW, the "Boost" instead of "Boosts" are intentional for "plurar" items like dragon boots, so they weren't fixed.

@Squirtle: Thank you, I'll certainly check that thread out if I need to make those changes again.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 08, May, 2015, 05:04:49 PM
No problem.

This is no my (and anyone else who notices something) big grammar post. PM me a grammar error you find as you're playing and I'll add it here. Otherwise, I'll be posting the ones I find and editing this post to add more if need be.

Chill: Strike to reduce a foe's defense. Needs to be Defense to match all other Djinn descriptions.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: owlbear on 13, May, 2015, 09:36:22 AM
Not sure if anyone else is experiencing this, but I'm playing on Classic Boy on my phone and everything seems to work fine, but the sound effect for basic melee attacks/damage received is missing.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Salanewt on 13, May, 2015, 04:08:33 PM
Huh. Have you tried standard GS/GS2 on that emulator?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: owlbear on 20, May, 2015, 06:57:35 AM
Huh. Have you tried standard GS/GS2 on that emulator?
So on 2 different emulators it seems that sound doesn't play in any version of the game (clean or patched).

Seems like such a small thing but the lack of the satisfying noise makes a big difference. But at least it isn't a patch related booboo. :)


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: owlbear on 21, May, 2015, 09:08:40 PM
Playing through the patch, one observation: maybe tone down the mercury djinn in altin. Ability to easily kill 2 people in a single turn, and a high flee frequency is a recipe for frustration.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 21, May, 2015, 09:14:11 PM
Playing through the patch, one observation: maybe tone down the mercury djinn in altin. Ability to easily kill 2 people in a single turn, and a high flee frequency is a recipe for frustration.
Thanks for reporting it's actually bugged. An hotfix will be avaliable within minutes is up.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 22, May, 2015, 03:02:32 AM
I should be able to get back to the game this weekend.  Sorry about my long hiatus.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: owlbear on 22, May, 2015, 05:56:39 AM
Playing through the patch, one observation: maybe tone down the mercury djinn in altin. Ability to easily kill 2 people in a single turn, and a high flee frequency is a recipe for frustration.
Thanks for reporting it's actually bugged. An hotfix will be avaliable within minutes is up.
Cool beans! I'll let you know any other anomalies I encounter.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 22, May, 2015, 06:33:12 AM
@Rolina: Glad to hear that!

@owlbear: please do and thanks.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: owlbear on 22, May, 2015, 11:05:36 PM
A couple class related thoughts:

First being why does Ivan get two different low level bolt spells that do comparable damage, hit the same targets, and cost 7 mp?

Second is in regards to Colosso. As it currently stands, I believe it is impossible to have anyone but Garet know Growth, which means if you assign him to use Move, no one else can help on a Growth stage. Dunno if intentional, or if it was always this way, but it came up while playing through.

Stuff seems pretty well balanced so far, now that the djinn got patched. Only other observation that the boss tornado beast that chases you has astronomical damage output, but can be outrun thankfully.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 22, May, 2015, 11:13:28 PM
Quote
First being why does Ivan get two different low level bolt spells that do comparable damage, hit the same targets, and cost 7 mp?
Don't know what you're talking about... Ray is 7 PP and 35 power while Plasma is 8 PP and 45 power...

Quote
As it currently stands, I believe it is impossible to have anyone but Garet know Growth, which means if you assign him to use Move, no one else can help on a Growth stage.
True.

Quote
Only other observation that the boss tornado beast that chases you has astronomical damage output, but can be outrun thankfully.
Tornado Lizard? His strongest spell is Tornado at 80 power...


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: leaf on 23, May, 2015, 03:03:12 AM
Hm, are you looking at the right enemy? Tornado lizard is the (originally) 500 hp enemy in every tornado. Storm lizard is the boss, and tempest lizard is the upgraded version of the boss in the pink tornado.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 23, May, 2015, 08:41:36 AM
Hm, are you looking at the right enemy? Tornado lizard is the (originally) 500 hp enemy in every tornado. Storm lizard is the boss, and tempest lizard is the upgraded version of the boss in the pink tornado.
You're right, sorry. he meant storm lizard.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: owlbear on 23, May, 2015, 07:10:13 PM
Quote
First being why does Ivan get two different low level bolt spells that do comparable damage, hit the same targets, and cost 7 mp?
Don't know what you're talking about... Ray is 7 PP and 35 power while Plasma is 8 PP and 45 power...
Quote
Flash bolt and ray. Similar damage output, same aoe, same cost.

Quote
Only other observation that the boss tornado beast that chases you has astronomical damage output, but can be outrun thankfully.
Tornado Lizard? His strongest spell is Tornado at 80 power...
May have been my party having been underleveled but his sonic slash was wrecking house across the board.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: javi3 on 24, May, 2015, 12:01:21 PM
This pach dosen't  work whith rom spanish clean? Solution?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 24, May, 2015, 12:03:24 PM
This pach dosen't  work whith rom spanish clean? Solution?
It works only with clean english roms.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: javi3 on 24, May, 2015, 12:56:15 PM
 :sad: don't solution?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 24, May, 2015, 07:40:28 PM
Okay, I can immediately say right now that the fight with the djinn in the Fuchin Falls Cave is a bit on the unfair side.  Djinn moving twice is one thing.  Djinn moving twice and hitting that hard in that wide of an area before you can get FP healing?  That's cheap.


GAAAAH!  That little jerk has fled from battle ten times in a row now!  Why is fleeing djinn a thing if they have two turns?!


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 24, May, 2015, 07:56:04 PM
Okay, I can immediately say right now that the fight with the djinn in the Fuchin Falls Cave is a bit on the unfair side.  Djinn moving twice is one thing.  Djinn moving twice and hitting that hard in that wide of an area before you can get FP healing?  That's cheap.


GAAAAH!  That little jerk has fled from battle ten times in a row now!  Why is fleeing djinn a thing if they have two turns?!

Could you upload your save somewhere? Sorry but I need the saves when making those tests cause i finished GS1 without any issues... so I can't really reply to that atm.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 24, May, 2015, 08:16:08 PM
I already beat the guy and saved.  I got lucky and stun voltage triggered a stun.

Also...  Two things to report issues on.

I'm currently reaching level 13 on my party, heading into Mogall Woods.  I am in desperate need of Tier 2 spells, and very few classes provide them.  There's a disturbing lack of low end spells right now - Growth, Quake, Douse, Frost, Bolt, Flare, etc.  Remember how I gave you a hard time about doubling up on spell types?  About how there should be a variety of spells strengths, rather than two powerful and one moderate or weak?  Yeah... THAT.  I've got a bunch of 7-9 PP spells that are worthless right now, and I'm struggling to find a way to get some basic spells without losing out on healing.  What good is having both the Plasma and Volcano lines if neither do me any good right now?  Why have the Thorn and Gaia lines when I'd be better off with Growth and Gaia?

Having two superspells sounds great and all, but it's a pain in the butt to get through early and midgame when you have no low or mid tier spell support.

Oh, and... Astral Blast and Ragnarok?  In the same class?  Umm... why?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: JamietheFlameUser on 24, May, 2015, 08:45:13 PM
Okay, if you're having trouble finding basic spells without losing healing, there's a problem. The uber-offence class that can nuke things with both Pyroclasm and Grand Gaia should not be the same class that also provides healing, I think.

Also, both Astral Blast and Ragnarok in the same class does seem pretty silly if you're balancing classes by core GS standards. (Obviously if you're going for a more Final Fantasy-type thing then there's nothing inherently wrong with classes whose entire skill list is physical.)


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: owlbear on 24, May, 2015, 08:55:08 PM
So I don't have the save anymore since I finally beat the storm lizard, but his casting of tempest averaged between 120 and 180 damage per character, depending on resistances.

Also, are there a list of the new classes that are exclusively in TBS? Also new items exclusive to TBS?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 24, May, 2015, 09:00:25 PM
@Rolina: Well, numbers at hand the only loss is Growth from the Seer. Douse is present as much as before, Quake, Frost, Flare have always been for mono elemental classes only, and i added Bolt to those 3 to complete the set.

Stepping aside from mere numbers, I always said that I see mono-elemental classes as the starting classes, the ones more geared towards early to mid game... and adding elements shifts the class to becoming good later in the game. So... I don't really see this as an issue cause you can just revert to base classes for some time and have your Tier 2 psynergies back without losing on healing.

About 2 EPAs in one class... just why not? Why a warrior class is fine with 2 BD spells of different elements (that are clearly better suited for mages since the PP multiplier patch) but not with 2 EPAs of different elements (that are clearly warrior-oriented)? And remember that EPAs only take one slot compared to the 3 of BD spells so it's very easy to increase variety by adding them.

@owlbear: the classes sheet is valid for TBS too. No new item for TBS instead but a lot of changes to existing ones.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: owlbear on 24, May, 2015, 10:09:48 PM
So then all classes at djinni cap are variants of 3/4, 6/1, 7, and 3/3?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 24, May, 2015, 10:14:19 PM
So then all classes at djinni cap are variants of 3/4, 6/1, 7, and 3/3?

Like i said, the sheet is valid for TBS as well. The only thing you have to take into account is that you don't have access to the highest tiers cause you lack the djinn for them (Highest two tiers for 3-tiers Tri-elemental classes), just like with the original game.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 24, May, 2015, 11:42:56 PM
Okay, if you're having trouble finding basic spells without losing healing, there's a problem. The uber-offence class that can nuke things with both Pyroclasm and Grand Gaia should not be the same class that also provides healing, I think.

Also, both Astral Blast and Ragnarok in the same class does seem pretty silly if you're balancing classes by core GS standards. (Obviously if you're going for a more Final Fantasy-type thing then there's nothing inherently wrong with classes whose entire skill list is physical.)
Not quite what I mean.  I mean across my whole team, if I was to get any kind of appropriate offense, none of my adepts know healing moves.  It was a frustrating juggle.

@2 EPAs:  I discussed this in my playthrough thread.  It's not that I think it's bad, but... it's kind of a waste.  Made a suggestion to make things more interesting.

Also... For once, we're complaining about something too easy in this!  The Hydros Statue was a joke.  We're talking Spark Mandrill levels of easy.  The boss isn't accounting for the fact that you literally just got area healing, and its damage output is... pathetic.  Boss needs buff badly.

@Revert to base classes:  All classes should be viable at all points in the game (ESPECIALLY true later in TLA, where you get djinn in an order that pretty much encourages this).  Also, almost everything in Mogall Woods is weak to Venus.  I was in desperate need of some heavy hitting venus moves, and to give Isaac exclusive use of that is... not exactly ideal in that place.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: owlbear on 25, May, 2015, 06:19:02 PM
Just beat it; avg party level 33. Last encounter was tough, but only because frequent turns of Fusion Dragon double-casting Outer Space or Bad Gas. Is it possible to tweak the scripting so there isn't as much spamming of a move, or is it intentional?

About to begin TLA playthrough.

[Edit] I just wanted to say thanks for taking the time to make and update these patches. Getting to play through my favorite GBA titles with a steeper difficulty curve and some new classes has been very enjoyable.

Also a suggestion for Blackbeard: maybe increase his physical strength. The best strategy I had for him was spamming Luff, because his spell damage was averaging 200-300/character. But keeping him sealed resulted in a cakewalk.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 25, May, 2015, 07:11:20 PM
@Rolina I need the save for testing Hydros Statue out or i'll end up making random changes here and there...

About classes: I think I've managed to accomplish balancing late game TLA beyond my wildest expectations... heck, some people even stick with base classes, which I thought to be utter crap late-game (and i still do btw), but making all classes viable early game is entirely another matter. The only way such a thing can be accomplished is by lowering the power cap, which translates into a huge nerf to pure mage, fateweaver, arcanist, radiant miko, incantatrix and warden, for starters. THEN rearrange ALL the others from there.

The problem is that we're discussing the approach, not the result. You see this class system as something that must be balanced through the whole game, while I see something that encourages you to start with base classes and then experiment variations as the game progresses. Those are two entirely different philosophies and arguing on which one is better is completely pointless IMHO.

About EPAs: i considered giving them added effects but i never found a set that satisfied me. Also, you gain another element in offense for just 1 slot of psynergy... to me it's quite the bargain instead even as they are now.

Quote
Just beat it; avg party level 33. Last encounter was tough, but only because frequent turns of Fusion Dragon double-casting Outer Space or Bad Gas. Is it possible to tweak the scripting so there isn't as much spamming of a move, or is it intentional?
There's no script, just percentages. And Bad Gas' is really low, only 6,6%.


Quote
[Edit] I just wanted to say thanks for taking the time to make and update these patches. Getting to play through my favorite GBA titles with a steeper difficulty curve and some new classes has been very enjoyable.
Thank you for trying this, and hope you'll enjoy TLA as well.

Quote
Also a suggestion for Blackbeard: maybe increase his physical strength. The best strategy I had for him was spamming Luff, because his spell damage was averaging 200-300/character. But keeping him sealed resulted in a cakewalk.
Actually, there's something I don't like with that... I don't want a seal to make the fight that easy, so I'll probably do something about that instead of raising his physical strength.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: javi3 on 25, May, 2015, 07:45:27 PM
Please don't joke!
Make pach for spanish rom please!!!!!


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 25, May, 2015, 08:28:51 PM
Please don't joke!
Make pach for spanish rom please!!!!!
It won't happen. I have no clue whatsoever on where the data i need is. This will only ever work with the english ROM.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 25, May, 2015, 10:06:18 PM
This is post battle.  I don't think I got any level ups, so the only difference is that I'm +1 Lift Gems.

@Javi:  There won't be a spanish version of this mod unless you make it yourself.  Simply put, it doesn't exist for the same reason you're requesting it - we don't know how to speak that language.  You'll have to find a third party to not only make it, but to keep it up to date with the changes being made to this mod.  Sorry about that. :/


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 25, May, 2015, 11:03:54 PM
Role, i need to test the battle itself... please upload one before the battle next time.

EDIT: Oh and, nothing was wrong with Cleric. Bishop is just a leftover of my tinkering with classes from the previous version. My bad.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: owlbear on 27, May, 2015, 09:26:44 PM
Aqua Hydra on Piers' ship could use some mellowing out. If he does raging flood twice in a turn (which he is prone to do), at LEAST 1 casualty.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 28, May, 2015, 03:32:54 PM
Released 1.24 following Rolina and owlbear's advices. Bishop is Cleric once again.
About monster tweaks: I might have said it quite a lot of times already, but without saves prior to the battle with the monster in question i cannot test the changes out. Which means that I cannot guarantee that the new power level will be satisfying.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: owlbear on 28, May, 2015, 04:11:18 PM
I ended up sorting out the battle with aqua hydra. Grinded to 20, grabbed the 4th venus djinn, and arranged my classes so I had 3 group heals. Did it, but needed to use 3 mountain waters and 2 psy crystals.

[Edit]Here is my prefight save
https://mega.co.nz/#!3UcD3KbT!YGPmriWESOM67laNfeimsuPaKDJbrjDSxqzS-hHe1OU


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 29, May, 2015, 12:36:12 PM
Role, i need to test the battle itself... please upload one before the battle next time.

EDIT: Oh and, nothing was wrong with Cleric. Bishop is just a leftover of my tinkering with classes from the previous version. My bad.
Oh, I know.  Which is why you shouldn't really ask for these things after they've happened.  I can't really turn back the clock on my save file, I'm afraid.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: leaf on 29, May, 2015, 06:46:49 PM
Or you could just assume he'll need a save and make a backup when you encounter this stuff. You get three save slots, after all, so you don't have to overwrite your previous after getting past something like that.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 29, May, 2015, 07:23:58 PM
My request is based on the assumption that people always save before going against a boss or a fixed djinn encounter... and after the fight you can just copy-paste the file away before saving again. After all, you now right after the battle ended whether you've got complaints to make.

@owlbear: Which god-forsaken emulator produces .srm files? i managed to find a converter to a .sav (thus also test and everything) but now i'm curious. :P


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: owlbear on 31, May, 2015, 08:36:58 PM
I use retro arch; best compatibility on my phone, has proper sound, open gl support, and has a working plugin for all the consoles I emulate

Query: where do I find the 4th triple element class item?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 31, May, 2015, 09:21:12 PM
where do I find the 4th triple element class item?
It doesn't exist.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 31, May, 2015, 09:27:16 PM
There were only ever three class items - and those were all quad-element, not triple element.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 31, May, 2015, 09:35:25 PM
Sorry about the short answer, the football match in tv just ended and i'm so exhausted that i'm having an hard time even remembering my name... anyway, you probably were confused by the first post. The added class is not a fourth item-based class (that makes quad-element classes like Rolina said) but the triple-element class that completes the djinn pattern. Those are the Fateweaver, the Warchief, the Guardian (Jenna only) and the Hero (Piers only).


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 31, May, 2015, 11:02:42 PM
Wait, so you added new item classes?  Or am I further misunderstanding?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: JamietheFlameUser on 01, June, 2015, 01:39:31 AM
You're misunderstanding. He added a tri-element class.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 01, June, 2015, 06:43:18 PM
You're misunderstanding. He added a tri-element class to each character.
Fixed. :p


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 01, June, 2015, 09:08:37 PM
Alright. Hi guys and gals. Short story told shorter: I'm back. I'll have Star Magician, Vulkan, and Dullahan done inside of the next two weeks. Then I'll make the big wrap-up post I'll sure you all can't wait to hear :P


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 01, June, 2015, 11:15:52 PM
Glad to see you're back! :D


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: owlbear on 02, June, 2015, 07:36:21 AM
New question: did the unattainable items like the ninja tabi, knights greaves, etc make it in?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 02, June, 2015, 10:22:39 AM
New question: did the unattainable items like the ninja tabi, knights greaves, etc make it in?
Yes they did. Read the opening post, you can find all the info you're looking for there.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 02, June, 2015, 11:25:11 AM
You're misunderstanding. He added a tri-element class to each character.
Fixed. :p
So basically you gave a Tri Hybrid A to those who lacked one, and an O to those who lacked that?

...Well, he did use a version of my class template, where those have been put in.

What confused me was this talk of a fourth class item.  The only class items that existed were quad-element, and there were only ever three.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 02, June, 2015, 12:11:12 PM
I saw your class templates in the xls you posted some time ago and while i don't remember well how you named each template, yes, they seemed pretty similar. I wrote what i've done in the opening post, I thought it was pretty clear but maybe the way i've written it causes some misunderstandings. Quoting myself:
Quote
Finally, a fourth three-elemental class has been added to EVERYONE, to fill the djinn combination gap left by the other three. So, Venus/Mars characters gain the 5 :VenusStar: 5 :MarsStar: 4 :MercuryStar: class and Jupiter/Mercury characters gain the 5 :JupiterStar: 5 :MercuryStar: 4 :MarsStar: class.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: owlbear on 02, June, 2015, 08:35:18 PM
My confusion stems from the use of element levels instead of attached djinn. Looking at the spreadsheet shows what elemental buff they get, or how many total djinn a class requires, but doesn't show how much of each type are required.

Sort of related: classes from the necronomicon seem a little lackluster, as progressing it from stage to stage doesn't change/add much, unlike the other 2 item classes.

Unrelated: devil scorpions in jupiter tower seem to have low health and do little damage; maybe an oversight?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 02, June, 2015, 08:43:41 PM
My confusion stems from the use of element levels instead of attached djinn. Looking at the spreadsheet shows what elemental buff they get, or how many total djinn a class requires, but doesn't show how much of each type are required.

Sort of related: classes from the necronomicon seem a little lackluster, as progressing it from stage to stage doesn't change/add much, unlike the other 2 item classes.

Unrelated: devil scorpions in jupiter tower seem to have low health and do little damage; maybe an oversight?

I had to write elemental levels inside the spreadsheet instead of djinn cause the number of the latter is tied to the character you're considering.

The necromancer has always been different in that regard from the other 2 item classes. But Call Dullahan is the strongest offensive psynergy in the game.

Devil Scorpion: nice catch once again. I outright skipped him when i applied the stat increase to monsters. My bad.

EDIT: The fix for Devil Scorpion is already up.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: owlbear on 03, June, 2015, 10:00:59 AM
Do cruel dragons no longer drop Tisiphone Edge ? Getting nothing via RNG methods.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 03, June, 2015, 11:19:41 AM
Do cruel dragons no longer drop Tisiphone Edge ? Getting nothing via RNG methods.
They still do. You're probably doing something wrong with the method itself.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: owlbear on 03, June, 2015, 01:47:42 PM
Do cruel dragons no longer drop Tisiphone Edge ? Getting nothing via RNG methods.
They still do. You're probably doing something wrong with the method itself.
Dunno, followed guide pretty closely, making adjustments to fix damage outputs accordingly for the patch. Only thing that deviates is someone defending, which shouldn't interfere as it doesn't add to RN. Starting with a hard reset and doing 6 damaging psy to a pair of dragons followed by a core, resulting in a flashing kill.

>battle starts
>party attacks first
>everyone multitarget attack psy
>next turn
>2 more multitarget attack psy
>mia defends
>garet uses core, flashing kill
>next turn finish off other dragon
>no drop


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 03, June, 2015, 02:47:32 PM
Dunno, followed guide pretty closely, making adjustments to fix damage outputs accordingly for the patch. Only thing that deviates is someone defending, which shouldn't interfere as it doesn't add to RN. Starting with a hard reset and doing 6 damaging psy to a pair of dragons followed by a core, resulting in a flashing kill.
[...]
There it is. You're applying the same steps valid for the original cruel dragon, that have each 1 attack. The cruel dragons in my mod have 2 attack each, which means that your RNG counter is off by 2 (1 per dragon's turn) when core deals the blow. Try replacing one of the multitarget attack psy with a single target attack.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: owlbear on 03, June, 2015, 03:09:14 PM
Dunno, followed guide pretty closely, making adjustments to fix damage outputs accordingly for the patch. Only thing that deviates is someone defending, which shouldn't interfere as it doesn't add to RN. Starting with a hard reset and doing 6 damaging psy to a pair of dragons followed by a core, resulting in a flashing kill.
[...]
There it is. You're applying the same steps valid for the original cruel dragon, that have each 1 attack. The cruel dragons in my mod have 2 attack each, which means that your RNG counter is off by 2 (1 per dragon's turn) when core deals the blow. Try replacing one of the multitarget attack psy with a single target attack.
That explaaaaaaaains everything. Thanks boss, will give it a go in a moment; results after.
[Edit] Sorry that took so long, needed to bike home from work. Worked like a charm. Now to farm new gear/mats/etc


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 04, June, 2015, 12:32:52 AM
Yeah, that element level thing is... annoying.  Especially when trying to make new classes.  It's why I don't use it to determine classes in the system I've been working on - I just use character slot and equipped djinn.  It actually allows for quite a bit more, and gives full class separation.  It's a shame you can't really do it in GS proper without one hell of an overhaul - lord knows it'd be a ton easier to work with.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 04, June, 2015, 12:36:26 AM
Yeah, that element level thing is... annoying.  Especially when trying to make new classes.  It's why I don't use it to determine classes in the system I've been working on - I just use character slot and equipped djinn.  It actually allows for quite a bit more, and gives full class separation.  It's a shame you can't really do it in GS proper without one hell of an overhaul - lord knows it'd be a ton easier to work with.
I can't see the difference here. I just used levels to avoid writing the same thing over and over... and i implemented full class separation in TLA all the same.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: JamietheFlameUser on 04, June, 2015, 01:36:19 AM
Full separation would mean no class overlap between characters at all. Which would have some consequences, such as mages no longer being able to access fighter tri-element classes and fighters no longer being able to access mage tri-element classes (not that they ever wanted to in the original GS. Base Damage was just so appallingly weak that it was entirely possible that you'd run everyone except the healers as physical classes).


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 04, June, 2015, 02:21:16 AM
Yeah, that element level thing is... annoying.  Especially when trying to make new classes.  It's why I don't use it to determine classes in the system I've been working on - I just use character slot and equipped djinn.  It actually allows for quite a bit more, and gives full class separation.  It's a shame you can't really do it in GS proper without one hell of an overhaul - lord knows it'd be a ton easier to work with.
I can't see the difference here. I just used levels to avoid writing the same thing over and over... and i implemented full class separation in TLA all the same.
Heh, try making branching classes.  See how far you get. :P

@Jamie:  Yeah, I know.  There's a reason I have new stats in my system.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: JamietheFlameUser on 04, June, 2015, 02:26:41 AM
Well, I've personally found that the patch that factors Max PP into Base Damage helps a lot. Makes mage characters instantly viable if you build spellcaster stats appropriately. (Hint: boatload of PP = boatload of damage output. I build pure mages with crap Attack and Defence but sky-high HP and PP, making them extremely squishy vs. physical attacks while tanking magic for days.)


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 04, June, 2015, 02:43:26 AM
Aye, it does.  It's not perfect, but it's sooooo much better than vanilla.  Also, those rollover classes?  I hate those.  So much.  I also dislike shared classes - and even semi-shared classes, like Isaac and Garet's alt-classes.  Same basis, mixed up only by element.  I wish the characters weren't so homogenized - outside of base classes, element pairs play nearly the exact same way.  It's why my method uses base class multipliers as a basis and changes them based on element and character role.  Sure, this may doom Garet to always be a slower character, but he makes up for it in other ways.  I also try to make similar classes play differently.  Isaac and Garet may both be controllers when you give them Jupiter Djinn, but I focus more on buffs and debuffs with one and ailments with another, giving you different ways of handling the same party role.  Vanilla... just doesn't do that.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: JamietheFlameUser on 04, June, 2015, 03:24:44 AM
Aye, it does.  It's not perfect, but it's sooooo much better than vanilla.  Also, those rollover classes?  I hate those.  So much.  I also dislike shared classes - and even semi-shared classes, like Isaac and Garet's alt-classes.  Same basis, mixed up only by element.  I wish the characters weren't so homogenized - outside of base classes, element pairs play nearly the exact same way.  It's why my method uses base class multipliers as a basis and changes them based on element and character role.  Sure, this may doom Garet to always be a slower character, but he makes up for it in other ways.  I also try to make similar classes play differently.  Isaac and Garet may both be controllers when you give them Jupiter Djinn, but I focus more on buffs and debuffs with one and ailments with another, giving you different ways of handling the same party role.  Vanilla... just doesn't do that.
Really? See, I love the rollover classes. Sometimes, I just want to have Karis Annihilation someone with a bow. Also, I'm vaguely offended by the lack of a jumpshot animation for the bow, as Thunder Mine with a bow would look really cool if there was such an animation.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 04, June, 2015, 08:55:14 AM
Full separation would mean no class overlap between characters at all. Which would have some consequences, such as mages no longer being able to access fighter tri-element classes and fighters no longer being able to access mage tri-element classes.
Yup, I know, cause that's what i meant: kill off partial classes. Full class separation, as in "every character has his own set" ATM is impossible due to space limitations. Every characters requires
5 (base) + 5+5+6 (duals) + 3+3+2+2 (tri) = 31 slots * 8 = 248 (we have only 243). It could be viable if we remove the added 2-tier tri-elemental but then we'd still have to remove 1 of the item classes.

This, or someone manages to repoint the class table somewhere else into the ROM.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 04, June, 2015, 12:17:29 PM
@Jamie:  The easy counter-argument is that they can't use those classes well at all.  Unlike Mars and Venus adepts, they can't use the top tier of that class, just as Caledor said.  And what about things going the other way?  What about when you have too many spare Mercury djinn, and it forces your venus or mars adept into a caster class?  What you really want isn't rollover classes, it's better support for casters period.  Why can't Karis have a Annihilation counterpart in one of her Tri-Element classes, after all?  Why are they stuck with basic arbitrary spells and classes when physical types got those really cool thematic ones?

Sometimes it makes more sense to ask why you like an unintended effect and address that instead of just embracing the effect itself. 


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: owlbear on 05, June, 2015, 08:15:19 AM
Having difficulty getting Aolian Cassocks from wyverns. They only have a single turn, so normal RNG math should be working for them. Still only getting exp and gold.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 05, June, 2015, 10:02:43 AM
Again, you must be doing something wrong with the RNG cause the numbers are the same. Why don't you try if the same method works with an unpatched game?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: leaf on 05, June, 2015, 10:31:52 AM
This guy needs to learn how to count RNs >_>

The RNG manipulation guide on gamefaqs does a mighty fine job of explaining exactly how each action you take contributes to the RN. You should be able to figure out why something is going wrong and correct for it.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: owlbear on 05, June, 2015, 11:35:18 AM
This guy needs to learn how to count RNs >_>

The RNG manipulation guide on gamefaqs does a mighty fine job of explaining exactly how each action you take contributes to the RN. You should be able to figure out why something is going wrong and correct for it.
I'm following the guide step for step, the ONLY THINGS I AM CHANGING are the spells, for getting adequate damage output
[edit]I AM AN IMBECILE! I was using a jupiter djinn with weird rn properties. My bad. Got it working.

Side note: is my party OP or do the mobs in the lower part of the treasure island cave have pretty low health?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: leaf on 05, June, 2015, 11:47:19 AM
edit: Nvm you got it.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 05, June, 2015, 12:13:15 PM
I was using a jupiter djinn with weird rn properties. My bad. Got it working.

Side note: is my party OP or do the mobs in the lower part of the treasure island cave have pretty low health?

If this happens again, please before reporting test your method with the original game. Report only if you have a drop with the original game and not with the modded one.

@Enemies. Nope, they've always had low HP.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: owlbear on 06, June, 2015, 07:30:30 PM
Another possible mob catch, the Minos Warrior in Mars Lighthouse has low health and only 1 turn.

[Edit]In regards to the OP and unleash rates. You list the best unleash  setup as having two cursed items and the sol ring and the angel's ring?

[Edit again] Fulminous Edge does way too much damage. Combined with Djinnstorm he's easily one-shotting everyone, despite being at level cap. I'm going to grind other mobs to top off gear sets for everyone, and try again; will upload save after.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 07, June, 2015, 04:11:47 PM

1. minos is correct. it's the whole lighthouse that's pretty underwhelming.

2. it's a leftover from a time was sure you could activate more than 1 ring. sorry :P

3. lol, i was grinning from ear to ear reading that. 'cause actually, fulminous edge has the very same strength of old hard mode dullahan. same attack, same multiplier, same jupiter power. This means that you either never fought HM dullhan without SRush before, or that you were totally caught off guard by the other skills i gave him. Your pick. :D


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: owlbear on 07, June, 2015, 05:26:34 PM
Can't remember if I ever did the old HM dullahan fight or not. Gave it several shots with a better geared party, but still ended up following the strategy posted in this thread. Djinnstorm>Impact>Fulminous Edge followed by a Fulminous Edge and a Charon. Maybe I just have awful luck.

Also having questions with the luck stat. Mia is sitting on 39 luck, and still gets autokilled by Condemn and Charon. O_o


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 07, June, 2015, 05:49:54 PM
Can't remember if I ever did the old HM dullahan fight or not. Gave it several shots with a better geared party, but still ended up following the strategy posted in this thread. Djinnstorm>Impact>Fulminous Edge followed by a Fulminous Edge and a Charon. Maybe I just have awful luck.

Also having questions with the luck stat. Mia is sitting on 39 luck, and still gets autokilled by Condemn and Charon. O_o
Will check Dullahan.
There's something wrong with Mia being ALWAYS killed by Condemn at 39 luck. Don't get me wrong there's still the chance for her to be hit by it (immunity starts at 40) but it should be pretty low.

Also, just tested: i hacked condemn to make it target allies, and my felix with 14 Jpower (dullahan has 17) couldn't land a single hit on my 35 luck pure mage mia.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: leaf on 07, June, 2015, 05:57:44 PM
I don't remember if you already did this or not from when I tested it, but djinn storm and its brethren - if they haven't already - need to be made into psynergy so they can be sealed. This is supposed to be the "balance age," after all, not "the RNG decided to make you lose... age." That move is simply too powerful to not have any available counterplay. If it could be psy sealed, the player would have some actual options for dealing with dullahan using luff/rime strategies, without having to resort to full-on summon rushing.

@owlbear: What class is mia in? It's possible you have absurd luck through items but also managed to fall into one of the classes with a weakness to condemn.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: owlbear on 07, June, 2015, 06:07:36 PM
Mia is an angel; wanted max healing capacity through water affinity to try and combat Dully's ridiculous DPS


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 07, June, 2015, 06:09:04 PM
I don't remember if you already did this or not from when I tested it, but djinn storm and its brethren - if they haven't already - need to be made into psynergy so they can be sealed. This is supposed to be the "balance age," after all, not "the RNG decided to make you lose... age." That move is simply too powerful to not have any available counterplay. If it could be psy sealed, the player would have some actual options for dealing with dullahan using luff/rime strategies, without having to resort to full-on summon rushing.

@owlbear: What class is mia in? It's possible you have absurd luck through items but also managed to fall into one of the classes with a weakness to condemn.
Sorry leaf, but you're wrong on this one. Djinn Storm already has a weakness, but i won't tell you here, cause i want others to figure it out by themselves. I'll PM you about it.

Also, already thought about it, but it's impossible for mia to be weak to insta-kill.

Edit: @owlbear. Did you know that elemental levels factor into status success rate? To put it shortly, Angel Mia has a higher chance to be affected by Condemn/Charon than Pure Mage Mia, cause the latter has venus level 4 instead of 0. It's still highly unlikely that this has a perceivable impact though, especially at 39 luck.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Salanewt on 07, June, 2015, 08:36:53 PM
Pretty much what Caledor said, yeah. This is especially true with Dullahan, because it has a really high Venus level.

On that note, is the 40 luck immunity thing still in your hack or did you tweak/remove it? Just wondering because owlbear is only one point away from immunity if you left it in... I have a feeling you didn't though.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 07, June, 2015, 09:00:25 PM
Pretty much what Caledor said, yeah. This is especially true with Dullahan, because it has a really high Venus level.

On that note, is the 40 luck immunity thing still in your hack or did you tweak/remove it? Just wondering because owlbear is only one point away from immunity if you left it in... I have a feeling you didn't though.
Nope, immunity is still there. Heck, i even implemented it in GS1! :P
However, 39 shouldn't be read as "one point away from immunity" cause that would give the misleading idea of a success rate next to 0. But it's a mystery for me as well cause, like I said, my Venus level 14 Felix never hit my Pure mage Mia with a hacked condemn.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Salanewt on 07, June, 2015, 09:24:35 PM
Well, the thing about the immunity is that having a luck of 40 essentially overwrites the success rate so it's 0. I definitely see your point as far as mental calculations go though.

Felix & Mia: Huh, that's weird. Did you keep the old formula in place as well? Might be worth doing a quick calculation to see if it can even hit at all if you did.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 07, June, 2015, 09:27:50 PM
Well, the thing about the immunity is that having a luck of 40 essentially overwrites the success rate so it's 0. I definitely see your point as far as mental calculations go though.

Felix & Mia: Huh, that's weird. Did you keep the old formula in place as well? Might be worth doing a quick calculation to see if it can even hit at all if you did.
The only formula i touched is the base damage one. He said mia was always hit... I tested five or six times with the same rom and he didn't hit once.  I concluded he was just being unlucky.

Maths:
(((((((Attacker's elemental level - Defender's elemental level) - Floor(Defender's luck / 2)) * 3) + effect's base chance + (vulnerabity's 25)) * diminishing%) / 100)  >= rnd()

Conqueror Felix vs Pure Mage Mia
(((14 - 4) - Floor(35 / 2)) * 3) + 20 = -1%  (impossible)

Dullahan vs owlbear's Angel Mia
(((17 - 0) - Floor(39 / 2)) * 3) + 20 = 14%

Looks like I was wrong, those 4 levels DO make quite the difference.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 08, June, 2015, 02:27:22 AM
Yeah, luck and element level are more important than most people realize.  Once you stop using vanilla's easy modo effect chances, it starts becoming more apparent.  I'd say either switch her to Pure Mage, or spec more into luck.  Tweaking your djinn to get all the luck+ djinn would be a good start, then things like... uh, well, unless they've been changed, like the Floating Hat, which gives you an extra 20% luck.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 08, June, 2015, 09:02:19 AM
Yeah, luck and element level are more important than most people realize.  Once you stop using vanilla's easy modo effect chances, it starts becoming more apparent.  I'd say either switch her to Pure Mage, or spec more into luck.  Tweaking your djinn to get all the luck+ djinn would be a good start, then things like... uh, well, unless they've been changed, like the Floating Hat, which gives you an extra 20% luck.
I switched all * bonuses to + bonuses of the same type, but on the other hand i raised luck available from djinn. It's not hard at all to make a Pure Mage hit 40 luck, I just managed with only djinn, divine camisole and clotho's distaff.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: JamietheFlameUser on 09, June, 2015, 01:52:13 AM
There's a reason it looks like that: The class list counts elemental levels, not Djinn. Each character has 5 levels in their own element at base, so a class that looks like it needs 14 Djinn total actually needs 9 Djinn plus the base 5 elemental levels.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 09, June, 2015, 12:19:59 PM
Aye.  That's why overflow classes are a thing.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 09, June, 2015, 12:21:02 PM
Overflow classes? What do you mean?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Misery on 10, June, 2015, 06:43:45 PM
She's referring to setting djinn in a way that changes a character's dominant element to something other than their base or symbiotic element.

i.e. Shaman Isaac, Cavalier Mia, etc.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 10, June, 2015, 06:46:35 PM
Oh, these. Well, not in my mod.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Misery on 10, June, 2015, 07:14:34 PM
Not until now did I actually download the patch and look at the classes in the editor...

What would happen in your mod, then? Sorry if you covered this already, but I don't recally any mention of how you handle this, and I can't really tell what would happen to their class type value.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 10, June, 2015, 07:36:09 PM
Not until now did I actually download the patch and look at the classes in the editor...

What would happen in your mod, then? Sorry if you covered this already, but I don't recally any mention of how you handle this, and I can't really tell what would happen to their class type value.
Nothing. The character remains in the class he's supposed to be. For example, Swordsman Isaac doesn't become a Shaman if you give him 6 Mercury Djinn: he remains a Fearless, just like if he had only 5. Then you give him a venus djinn and he becomes a Paragon as usual. As for how i handled it... I rewrote the assembly function that handles classes to implement full separation. IIRC now it's something like:
Code:
if (classID != itemClassID) then
classID = classID + pgID * 10
with other ifs here and there to leave duplication of classes at minimum. Moreover I rewrote the class table so that it uses only numbers from 0 to 9. It became possible cause now i can use the same number for each couple of elements (venus-mercury or mercury-venus doesn't make any difference anymore). This way each pg has his own class range that goes from pgID*10 to pgID *10 +9.

Well, at least this is what happens in TLA. In GS I couldn't do anything cause the pgID isn't carried over into the function like in TLA.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Misery on 10, June, 2015, 08:03:31 PM
Oh wow, I didn't know you had been messing with the class code that much, haha. Well, thanks for the explanation.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 10, June, 2015, 08:06:23 PM
Oh wow, I didn't know you had been messing with the class code that much, haha. Well, thanks for the explanation.
Well, I did what i could. And, you're welcome. :D


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 12, June, 2015, 04:02:56 AM
...That needs to be a patch.  That's something that a nice chunk of us very much desire.  Off chance you can find a way to make split paths work for classes?

Ex:

Venus, Dual Adjacent, Path A:
 :MercuryStar: 1 → :MercuryStar: 2 → :MercuryStar: 4 → :MercuryStar: 6  :VenusStar: 1→ :MercuryStar: 7  :VenusStar: 2

Venus, Dual Adjacent, Path B:

 :MercuryStar: 1 → :MercuryStar: 1  :VenusStar: 1 → :MercuryStar: 2  :VenusStar: 2 → :MercuryStar: 3  :VenusStar: 3 → :MercuryStar: 4  :VenusStar: 4

You could even have a Path C:

 :MercuryStar: 1 → :MercuryStar: 2 → :MercuryStar: 4 → :MercuryStar: 7 → :MercuryStar: 8


I could see the difference between paths A and B being shown in the supports, while paths A and C would differ in whether the upgraded EPA is pure power, or slightly weaker in favor of dealing an effect.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 12, June, 2015, 08:40:03 AM
lol i'm seriously doubting my english skills now. what did you understand whenever i said "no more partial classes" the other times?
Jokes aside, ATM a patch would work for everyone is not possible. The reason, like i said other times, is that full separation requires more slot that the ones we have avaliable, so i tweaked the formula to avoid class duplication as much as possible, but this means it is bound to my class setup.
Regarding multiple paths I don't know what the issue is with them now but shouldn't you be fine as long as you put B before A in the rom?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 12, June, 2015, 12:07:20 PM
It's a terminology thing.  Different people know those classes as different thing - I know them as Overflow classes, you as partial classes.  There's just not a standardized term for them.

@Full Separation:  Er, I wasn't talking about full separation, but the removal of overflow classes.  That would allow for the use of Path C in classes.

@Multiple paths:  You'd think.  I've found them much more difficult to implement than what would seem obvious.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 12, June, 2015, 03:19:25 PM
Just remove the overflow, eh? Maybe it can be done. I'll think about it and if a "clean" patch can be made, I will certainly make it.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: TenkaiSp on 03, July, 2015, 10:54:21 AM
Great mod, Caledor!
Out of curiosity, I've tried to use it together with Atrius' Translation Toolkit. (I patched the clear rom at first).
Everything seems to work just fine, except one thing - the Toolkit messes up the damage formulas.
E. g. Punishment does more than 1000 damage to monsters outside Prox. Poor guys  :Sweat:

I wonder where the issue lies. It would be amazing if I could add this mod to my TLA translation.
Too bad I have no real hacking experience myself.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 03, July, 2015, 11:09:41 AM
Great mod, Caledor!
Out of curiosity, I've tried to use it together with Atrius' Translation Toolkit. (I patched the clear rom at first).
Everything seems to work just fine, except one thing - the Toolkit messes up the damage formulas.
E. g. Punishment does more than 1000 damage to monsters outside Prox. Poor guys  :Sweat:

I wonder where the issue lies. It would be amazing if I could add this mod to my TLA translation.
Too bad I have no real hacking experience myself.
I know this one cause i use the toolkit on my modified italian rom. The toolkit writes the uncompressed text OVER the tables used by the damage formulas. Those tables are used to separate summons (grab a byte =/= 0) and non summons (byte = 0). Basically what happens is that if text is written there (bytes are not zeros anymore) every skill is treated as a summon, thus HP% damage is added to the real damage.

To sum it up, it can be fixed. I just have to move the tables to an earlier portion of the code, to match what i did on my italian rom.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: TenkaiSp on 03, July, 2015, 11:32:37 AM
I know this one cause i use the toolkit on my modified italian rom. The toolkit writes the uncompressed text OVER the tables used by the damage formulas. Those tables are used to separate summons (grab a byte =/= 0) and non summons (byte = 0). Basically what happens is that if text is written there (bytes are not zeros anymore) every skill is treated as a summon, thus HP% damage is added to the real damage.

To sum it up, it can be fixed. I just have to move the tables to an earlier portion of the code, to match what i did on my italian rom.

I see. That is good news. Hope it comes with the next release.
Thanks for clearing that up!  :happy:


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 03, July, 2015, 12:07:08 PM
It will. I can't give you an ETA though cause i'm quite busy these days and i don't really know when i'll work at it.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Salanewt on 03, July, 2015, 02:30:42 PM
Darn, is this an issue with the simple summons patch being incompatible with the toolkit? Because I can totally tweak it at some point if it is.

Edit: Although, now that I think about it, a number of my patches may be affected... er, never mind I guess.


Just curious, but do you have any future plans for this patch aside from that little fix?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 03, July, 2015, 02:46:10 PM
I imagine there would be - if nothing else, new animations and icons being addable would trigger updates.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 03, July, 2015, 02:49:15 PM
Darn, is this an issue with the simple summons patch being incompatible with the toolkit? Because I can totally tweak it at some point if it is.

Edit: Although, now that I think about it, a number of my patches may be affected... er, never mind I guess.

Just curious, but do you have any future plans for this patch aside from that little fix?
Yes I think it is. I went by memory though, i still haven't checked anything yet. I just recall that something in my rom had to be moved earlier in the code because it overlapped with the text.

As for plans, without input from you guys, ATM I have none. I already have my hands full with other extremely time consuming projects + summer life + university. Like Rolina said though, in the future there will probably be depending on what becomes available. It might even turn into a full overhaul someday.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 10, July, 2015, 01:52:29 PM
1.24b uploaded (patch compatible with gstlatoolkit)

@LordSquirtle. Yes, it was the simple summon patch. I moved the table from FB0000 to F7A000


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: TenkaiSp on 11, July, 2015, 07:09:36 PM
Everything works fine. Yay. Thanks Caledor, you are Golden!  :Felix:
Now my translation feels complete.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 11, July, 2015, 07:11:06 PM
You're welcome ;)


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Salanewt on 12, July, 2015, 04:17:34 AM
Ouch. Shouldn't be a huge problem for other people in the future because of how easy it is to move the table, but other patches may be a pain...

As for more in the future, awesome. I may actually have something that could be of interest to you in the future, but it's only abut 95% done and I have been too busy with other things (also university, M&L hacking resurgence, etc.) to finish it. A revised Star Mine animation that is purple. Up to you if you want it.

Let me know if you ever need a hand with anything!


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 12, July, 2015, 11:49:49 AM
Ouch. Shouldn't be a huge problem for other people in the future because of how easy it is to move the table, but other patches may be a pain...

As for more in the future, awesome. I may actually have something that could be of interest to you in the future, but it's only abut 95% done and I have been too busy with other things (also university, M&L hacking resurgence, etc.) to finish it. A revised Star Mine animation that is purple. Up to you if you want it.

Let me know if you ever need a hand with anything!
Thanks, Squirtle. i'll give it a look when its done. ATM things that would probably trigger new patches are:

for gs1, the infamous mars revive and the 4 turn death curse.
For both games a way to insert custom made icon (= compress them, cause rolina already made those). It should work great with your animations patch and would probably be the first step toward the full overhaul thing.
Then the tweaking of some effects. First that come to mind are Delusion and Haunt. Delusion needs to be stronger but i'm still not sure how, while for haunt making it trigger more often (40%?) should be enough. We already have advanced reviving, advanced regeneration and unleashes unleashed, and those are all thing i'll use in the future. The only thing that's keeping me from using them right now (especially the reviving one) is once again the lack of a gs1 counterpart.

Sadly I'm clueless on how to implement all of them but if you ever find yourself in need of an inspiration for new tweaks to GS you can count on me as you can see haha.

Good luck with your other projects. ;)


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 12, July, 2015, 03:59:21 PM
If you need, I can make other sprite lines upon request.  Just describe what the ideal animation you'd have for that line is (even if you can't actually do it in game), and I'm sure I could come up with something.

By the way, the reason I've not made progress recently on my own playthrough... is harddrive failure.  I'm still recovering from losing my system drive (it was a seven year old drive, after all).  Luckily I've got most of that fixed up.  If I can find a good controller program that doesn't make me re-plug the controller every time I alt tab, I can get you better data on boss battles too.  Those last two would have been copied down if not for that slowing me down as much as it did - I figure you could get a better idea on my complaints for the Hydros Statue.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 12, July, 2015, 06:06:03 PM
If you need, I can make other sprite lines upon request.  Just describe what the ideal animation you'd have for that line is (even if you can't actually do it in game), and I'm sure I could come up with something.

By the way, the reason I've not made progress recently on my own playthrough... is harddrive failure.  I'm still recovering from losing my system drive (it was a seven year old drive, after all).  Luckily I've got most of that fixed up.  If I can find a good controller program that doesn't make me re-plug the controller every time I alt tab, I can get you better data on boss battles too.  Those last two would have been copied down if not for that slowing me down as much as it did - I figure you could get a better idea on my complaints for the Hydros Statue.

I think it would be useless to make actual requests before someone finds out how to put them into the game. good luck with retrieving your hdd, and yes i'd be glad to read more of your playthrough


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 13, July, 2015, 04:18:58 AM
Oh, it's mostly just reinstalling stuff as I come across things I need to use.  All my data was safe.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: JustBeKrillin on 29, August, 2015, 02:07:47 AM
Is the game still a grind end-game to reach lvl 99? Or has this been fixed?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 29, August, 2015, 02:18:12 AM
i haven't touched exp gained from monsters so the short answer is yes. However, i'd like to stress out that this doesn't need to be "fixed" cause it's fine the way it is. you don't need lv 99 at all to finish the game, so you're not supposed to reach it just with your everyday battles (= without grinding).


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: JustBeKrillin on 29, August, 2015, 02:21:32 AM
The perfectionists who grind for max stats would appreciate it though. Versatility in how the game is played should be priority for all different types of fans, perfectionist or not. Would you consider it?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 29, August, 2015, 02:39:54 AM
perfectionist will have to grind for max stat, just like they did for every other single game they played or that they'll ever play. Versatility means allowing the player to make different choices when they customize their party and is the main reason this mod was born. There is no versatility in making the level up three times faster than how it's always been. Just a pointless change in numbers displayed.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: JustBeKrillin on 29, August, 2015, 02:43:27 AM
Fair enough, can you answer me this then. Can all missable items in GS2 from GS1 + the new items added to GS1 be transferred to GS2 without worry of missing out on anything? If you arent sure what items these were I could provide a list.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 29, August, 2015, 02:46:57 AM
i don't i've completely understood what you're saying so yes, i'd rather see that list before answering. You mean that there are items missable in GS2 just by don't bringing them over from GS1? Like the cleric's ring?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: JustBeKrillin on 29, August, 2015, 02:53:32 AM
Isaac:
Gaia Blade
Warrior's Helm
Earth Shield
Dragon Scales
Catch Beads
Orb of Force
Demon Axe
Bandit's Sword
Mystery Blade
Assassin Blade
Elven Rapier
Arctic Blade
Mythril Circlet
Dragon Shield
China Dress

Garet:
Muramasa
Adept's Helm
Spirit Gloves
Demon Mail
Frost Jewel
Douse Drop
Cleric's Ring
Wicked Mace
Grievous Mace
Burning Axe
Vulcan Axe
Glittering Tiara
Guardian Armlet
Oracle's Robe
Spiked Armor

Ivan:
Kikuichimonji
Ninja Hood
Virtuous Armlet
Storm Gear
Cloak Ball
Halt Gem
Fairy Ring
Cell Key
Hermes' Water
Cocktail Dress
Ninja Garb
Kimono
Water Jacket
Asura's Armor
Spirit Armor

Mia:
Zodiac Wand
Lucky Cap
Battle Gloves
Elven Shirt
Carry Stone
Lifting Gem
Mars Star
Shaman Rod / Black Orb
Dragon's Eye
Lure Cap
Thunder Crown
Vambrace
[anything]
[anything]
[anything]

Etc:
GS1 Stat Up items:
Apple (4)
Cookie (4)
Power Bread (4)
Hard Nut (5)
Mint (4)
Lucky Pepper (4)

GS1 Non-artifact items:
Fur Coat (1)
Corn (1)

GS1 Tolbi Springs items:
Adept's Helm
Assassin Blade
Burning Axe
China Dress
Earth Shield
Glittering Tiara
Grievous Mace
Guardian Armlet
Kimono
Ninja Hood
Spirit Armor

GS1 Enemy Drop items:
Kikuichimonji
Zodiac Wand
Spiked Armor

This is the full list of missables that arent in GS2 unless you transfer them. Would there be room for the newly added items too?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 29, August, 2015, 03:02:43 AM
some of those can be found in GS2. going from memory, at least the gaia blade and the kikuichimonji. maybe even the zodiac wand. 95% of the list still needs to be brought over from gs1 though


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: JustBeKrillin on 29, August, 2015, 03:06:55 AM
some of those can be found in GS2. going from memory, at least the gaia blade and the kikuichimonji. maybe even the zodiac wand. 95% of the list still needs to be brought over from gs1 though
I really appreciate you looking at this, I just have one last question and I wont be such a pest anymore xD

Could I be told the new items so I can compile a list in my head of what I can and cannot transfer? I really wanna use your patch because its been fantastic so far and I greatly appreciate the amount of time, sweat, and work you put into both games. I'm just a little too addicted to this game and like to make perfect files. xP


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 29, August, 2015, 03:25:42 AM
gaia blade, kikuichimonji, zodiac wand and spirit gloves. Those are the items that originally were GS1 only that with my mod can be obtained in a non-password enhanced playthrough of GS2. I don't think there's anything else.
Also glad you're liking my mod and don't be shy to ask if there's anything else. :)


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: JustBeKrillin on 29, August, 2015, 03:27:46 AM
gaia blade, kikuichimonji, zodiac wand and spirit gloves. Those are the items that originally were GS1 only that with my mod can be obtained in a non-password enhanced playthrough of GS2. I don't think there's anything else.
Also glad you're liking my mod and don't be shy to ask if there's anything else.
Well I meant newly added items, such as sol ring, etc that were added to GS1 that wasnt in the original game before the patch. Custom made items. But I appreciate telling me whats in GS2 already so I can remove those off the list of needed items!


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 29, August, 2015, 03:36:16 AM
In gs1 IIRC i haven't added anything. the rings, caladbolg etc are GS2 only. Anyway, if i've added something, it's written in the first post of this thread.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: JustBeKrillin on 29, August, 2015, 03:39:44 AM
In gs1 IIRC i haven't added anything. the rings, caladbolg etc are GS2 only. Anyway, if i've added something, it's written in the first post of this thread.
Appreciated man, I'll be working on completing a file on GS1 with all djinn, events, missables, etc to share a gold password of your patch for everyone to enjoy.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Seelegewehr on 12, September, 2015, 01:47:45 PM
I apologize if this has been brought up before but I started playing this just yesterday and I noticed that some early game psynergies are really, really strong. Like a "battles become completely trivial if I use them at all" kind of strong.

Flare Wall, Whirlwind, Fume, Wind Slash, and Plasma do extreme amounts of damage even at low levels and against Djinni and bosses, the damage is even larger.

(http://i.imgur.com/m8SYi3e.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/Zisdt0X.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/pXo872Y.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/Y0ItIwu.png)

Other spells deal significantly increased damage to bosses as well, but still less than Fume/Wind Slash etc. I'm guessing what's happening is that with some psynergies there's some kind of %hp damage that's being affected by other formula changes.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 12, September, 2015, 02:20:27 PM
this is totally not supposed to happen so if you can upload somewhere a saved game (in an area where this happens like yampi desert) I'll look into it and fix it right away. the chance your guess is correct is pretty high.

In the meantime, please try testing the patch once more on a clean US rom. The same saved game from your broken rom will work flawlessy with it so you can use it to compare both roms.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 12, September, 2015, 03:55:21 PM
Oh wow, they got HP Percentile damage?  I wonder if it has to do with the slot they're in or something, assuming things got moved around.  If not, are you sure it was a clean rom?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 12, September, 2015, 04:11:55 PM
Oh wow, they got HP Percentile damage?  I wonder if it has to do with the slot they're in or something, assuming things got moved around.  If not, are you sure it was a clean rom?
hp% damage is applied by checking a table of single bytes that matches the ability table. if the byte corresponding to the ability used is not 0, that very number is used to deal hp% damage. Errors like these are usually due to the table being messed up like starting some bytes earlier or later (but this also means that the abilities messed up are only a few) or more serious mistakes. If every single spell deals hp% damage its almost certain that it's the user fault for not following patching advices correctly.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Seelegewehr on 12, September, 2015, 06:32:02 PM
Seems I was using the wrong version of rom? I tried several different clean (U) roms & same problem, but then I tried a (UE) one and now everything appears to be normal; Wind Slash, Fume. etc are doing reasonable amounts of damage.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 12, September, 2015, 11:36:43 PM
Seems I was using the wrong version of rom? I tried several different clean (U) roms & same problem, but then I tried a (UE) one and now everything appears to be normal; Wind Slash, Fume. etc are doing reasonable amounts of damage.
maybe your rom was bad from the beginning. anyway glad that the issue has been cleared. if anything strange happens again, do not hesitate and let me know.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Daddy Poi's Oily Gorillas on 13, September, 2015, 01:56:39 AM
Seems I was using the wrong version of rom? I tried several different clean (U) roms & same problem, but then I tried a (UE) one and now everything appears to be normal; Wind Slash, Fume. etc are doing reasonable amounts of damage.
I would like to bring up that some rippers actually add ripper credits to the ROM.

I actually have something documented in the GS2 Documentation.
Quote
(Bootleg stuff???)
Stuff some ROMs may have that others may not:
08F79650 = MEGAROMS Screen 1
08F8C254 = MEGAROMS Screen 2
08F9EE50 = MEGAROMS ARM code (Press L+R on boot)
08F9EFE8 = Free
Note: The value at 08000468 will be 08F9EE50 instead of the original 0801319D.
A clean ROM is not suppose to have this, but some do. To know if yours did, obviously hold L+R on boot to see if credit information pops up. Assuming Caledor has data in this area, perhaps this could be the problem? (Dunno.)

P.S. = It's also why my C# program saves compressed text data to 0xFA0000 instead of 0xF80000 like the gstoolkit version.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 21, September, 2015, 10:07:58 PM
Seems I was using the wrong version of rom? I tried several different clean (U) roms & same problem, but then I tried a (UE) one and now everything appears to be normal; Wind Slash, Fume. etc are doing reasonable amounts of damage.
I would like to bring up that some rippers actually add ripper credits to the ROM.

I actually have something documented in the GS2 Documentation.
Quote
(Bootleg stuff???)
Stuff some ROMs may have that others may not:
08F79650 = MEGAROMS Screen 1
08F8C254 = MEGAROMS Screen 2
08F9EE50 = MEGAROMS ARM code (Press L+R on boot)
08F9EFE8 = Free
Note: The value at 08000468 will be 08F9EE50 instead of the original 0801319D.
A clean ROM is not suppose to have this, but some do. To know if yours did, obviously hold L+R on boot to see if credit information pops up. Assuming Caledor has data in this area, perhaps this could be the problem? (Dunno.)

P.S. = It's also why my C# program saves compressed text data to 0xFA0000 instead of 0xF80000 like the gstoolkit version.
Very intresting. Thanks for the clarification!


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: isaac3000 on 22, September, 2015, 12:18:02 PM
I play your hack as well, and must say I like it!

What I liked most about it is the fact that some weapons raise something other than attack as well. Light Blades raise agility, staffs raise max PP and Axes drop defense! I like this a lot! Also, the fact that  :Sheba: is the main healer is also nice, since she is fragile, and loosing her means loosing your healer, of course in base classes, I want to see what other classes provide!

Because I have my last exams tomorrow, I can't continue on playing, but I will post again about my experience with it!!! :happy:


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 23, September, 2015, 05:57:50 PM
The weapon categories system is just the tip of the iceberg... read the opening post for all the info regarding my mod ;)


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: isaac3000 on 24, September, 2015, 05:23:40 PM
Yep I read through it! I must say I am impressed!! Since my exams are officially over now, I will continue my playthrough!!


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 29, September, 2015, 07:55:45 PM
Patch updated to v1.24c. This makes Revive, Raise and Water of Life heal only 50% HP when used outside of battle as well. Many thanks to Lord Squirtle for his Advanced Reviving patch.

PS: atm it's a TLA only thing. In TBS those spells still revive to full hp when used outside of battle and to half hp when used in-battle


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 30, September, 2015, 12:15:46 AM
Ah, sweat beautiful balance~♥


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Aurorain on 03, October, 2015, 01:29:16 PM
Not sure if anyone else has been having this problem, but my damage for certain spells(Whirlwind and Flame Wall in particular) seem to be doing ridiculous damage near the start of the game, practically one-shotting even the Mimic in Kandorean Temple. I get that the formula was changed to deal more damage based on how much max pp a character has, but the regular Flare does the damage it should at that point in the game(dealing around 20; Whirlwind up in the 70's at least...it hit the mimic for over 200. Flame Wall on average is hitting 130-140 as well.), yet having around the same base power as Whirlwind, and Jenna and Sheba both around the same total PP. Felix's damage with Growth/Thorn is a bit above average too, though it deals only a bit over half of Whirlwind.

Might be because I'm using a password-enhanced save, idk, but I didn't have this kind of issue in the first game. Any ideas what's causing the damage influx?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 03, October, 2015, 01:43:20 PM
Maybe another case of a bad rom? It already happened, try reading page 27 of this thread, from Seelegewehr's post onwards.
For future reference, my Flare against the first ruffian deals 18 damage.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Aurorain on 03, October, 2015, 01:56:28 PM
Yeah, turns out it was a problem with my rom. I patched a UE copy, like the person before me, and everything's running fine now.  :happy:


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 03, October, 2015, 02:00:19 PM
Yeah, turns out it was a problem with my rom. I patched a UE copy, like the person before me, and everything's running fine now.  :happy:
Glad it works now, but to me it's still a bit strange cause US and UE version only differ in 3 bytes. I'll upload a patch for TLA that should be compatible with US Roms within minutes, could you try applying it to your US rom and see if the problem is fixed?

EDIT: Uploaded patch 1.24d. Can anyone (the more the merrier) test it on clean US roms to see if the damage issue is fixed? Especially Aurorain and Seelegeweh, whom experienced the bug first hand.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Aurorain on 03, October, 2015, 02:29:00 PM
Can't test out the other reported in spells yet, but just tried it out on a clean US rom, and Flare Wall and Whirlwind do the correct damage with that new patch~


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 03, October, 2015, 02:34:25 PM
Thanks then, i'll consider the issue cleared. ;)


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 07, October, 2015, 05:40:29 AM
Hey Cal,

Just wanted to mention that some of your classes have incorrect base stat multipliers, according to your class table Google doc.

Of the ones I've checked so far, the Holy Knight tree has incorrect stats. I only noticed that one in particular because I was flipping piers back and forth while checking base stats and saw that his HP was too low. it might be worth some time to sit down with the editor and double-check all the classes base stats again to make sure they are perfect.

Cheers.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 07, October, 2015, 04:18:14 PM
Hey Cal,

Just wanted to mention that some of your classes have incorrect base stat multipliers, according to your class table Google doc.

Of the ones I've checked so far, the Holy Knight tree has incorrect stats. I only noticed that one in particular because I was flipping piers back and forth while checking base stats and saw that his HP was too low. it might be worth some time to sit down with the editor and double-check all the classes base stats again to make sure they are perfect.

Cheers.

Hey Varden, glad to see you again. Just checked this issue, it seems i forgot to update the stats when i switched the general and holy knight tree. Thanks for reporting, I'll upload a fix for it soon v1.24e uploaded.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 08, October, 2015, 03:11:19 AM
Since the last patch, Fever has now become "Wakelfoul.".

Really not sure how happened. Is it on my end?

Wait...Corona and Fever have been flipped in usage? Or have they had their names flipped? Err...wait, was that something we'd already talked about? Trying to learn the editor on the fly, sorry.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 08, October, 2015, 04:36:30 AM
Since the last patch, Fever has now become "Wakelfoul.".

Really not sure how happened. Is it on my end?

Wait...Corona and Fever have been flipped in usage? Or have they had their names flipped? Err...wait, was that something we'd already talked about? Trying to learn the editor on the fly, sorry.

I see no issue on my end... try patching the game again.
Fever and Corona's names were switched around at some point but we discussed about it and they were reverted back to vanilla.

Don't worry and keep telling me about any other issues you find


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 08, October, 2015, 05:09:01 AM
I just edited my file back to fix the strange naming issue. No other problems that I can see so far.

Caladbolg is neat, I like the (I'm going to guess) Watery Grave animation. Big multiplier too, I now have to pick between this and the Excalibur for Piers.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 08, October, 2015, 05:29:51 AM
I just edited my file back to fix the strange naming issue. No other problems that I can see so far.
That's fine too ;) How did your playtrough go?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 08, October, 2015, 11:54:22 AM
It isn't finished yet. Life got in the way hardcore and I couldn't bring myself back to the game until I resolved what I needed to.




SPOILERS FOR THOSE WHO CAN'T HELP THEMSELVES OR JUST WANT TO BE CAUGHT OFF-GUARD:



Just beat Star Magician. Nice alterations made to his fight Refresh Balls are now gigantic need-to-kill targets, even more than before. In the couple tries it took, I found that smashing all the balls until there were only Thunder Balls was the way to go. Keep buffing Resistance every few turns, heal with Incantatrix Jenna and Pure Mage Sheba (Cool Aura and Wish Well because I'm level 43), and then hitting SM with Mars Djinn from Felix and Piers.

As a note on the balance side of things, I only used the TLA party with the first 9 djinn in each element found in TLA. I never felt that any part of this patch has been so difficult that I needed 8 people (especially since summon rushing is out) and I like it that way. Being tactical has paid off and if that was the goal, it was a success.

Iridial Ring will help a lot. Can't tell if Triton's Ward has a place on anyone, especially since Cursed gear is so good and Piers has all the TLA gear (sans Darksword).

To wrap up my overlong post, it's a top notch rebalance. My word on this isn't perfect because I'd never played Hard Mode on Vanilla TLA, but you've accumulated enough extra content besides just enemy statistical tweaks to make this game worth playing again.

I'll never forgive Sentinel for just annihilating me over and over, though. That was very, very well done. Changes the entire dynamic of the fight.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 08, October, 2015, 05:14:30 PM
Thank you very much for the kind words. Also, glad i asked know, who knows what you would have written if you already tried beating dullahan haha :P

Quote
I never felt that any part of this patch has been so difficult that I needed 8 people (especially since summon rushing is out) and I like it that way. Being tactical has paid off and if that was the goal, it was a success.
That's exactly what i wanted. If the eight people party were just "another team" that adds to your survival, enemies after Jupiter lighthouse would have been MUCH more dangerous. Also, this just gave me an idea... what if i tweaked the game to give you a game over despite having living party members in the backrow, when the front four die?

Quote
Can't tell if Triton's Ward has a place on anyone, especially since Cursed gear is so good and Piers has all the TLA gear (sans Darksword).
Both my pure mage mia and sea lord piers use triton ward (Cursed gear is on shogun garet, cause his luck is already screwed up by being a shogun), so i'd say yes. IMHO e.power boosting equipments will always be very good.

Too bad that fixes aside, I can't develop the patch further cause i lack the tools to do so. I'd like A LOT to tinker with statuses like delusion, haunt or curse, but i don't know where the data for them is stored. Or to make a few new items (especially a cursed robe. i already have look, name and bonuses in my mind), if only an "icon compression tool" existed...

As a side note, what about your playthrough instead, Role?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 09, October, 2015, 02:12:26 AM
I've got Valukar to take care of before Dullahan. I really don't know how this guy got changed, since his shtick is so unique (summoning my djinn).

There's no need to tweak game overs IMO. Pretty much only enthusiasts play Golden Sun at this point, and we all know that letting an entire party fall at one time is basically a fail state (assuming it wasn't planned for, like old summon rushing strats).

As for stuff like statuses, that's something that feels like it would need so much work it almost wouldn't be worth it. For the most part, Golden Sun isn't balanced at all around status conditions. Something like a Death Curse makes you react immediately, but anything like long-term or persistent effects are something I haven't thought about enough to provide input on. They really just aren't a part of the game as it currently is.

Actually, I've wanted to ask something. Have you considered moving Frost off Pier's permanent psynergy into one of his alternate classes? I ask because he lost the rest of the Frost tree in his base class and I don't know if the Glacier tree shows up in any other class.

EDIT: Alright, actually, @#$% Valukar/Balrog too. The number of times he decided to Stun Jip someone 3 times in a row, despite doing everything I could to try and make sure his attack was lowered and my defense boosted, was ridiculous. I'm happy that he plays so close to the original boss, because I thought he was really unique. Interesting to see how much adding one turn does for a boss.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 09, October, 2015, 01:18:30 PM
As for stuff like statuses, that's something that feels like it would need so much work it almost wouldn't be worth it. For the most part, Golden Sun isn't balanced at all around status conditions. Something like a Death Curse makes you react immediately, but anything like long-term or persistent effects are something I haven't thought about enough to provide input on. They really just aren't a part of the game as it currently is.
I don't think so. Even just making haunt and delusion trigger more often would be a huge step forward. As they are now, they are usually ignored cause they don't pose a treath.

Actually, I've wanted to ask something. Have you considered moving Frost off Pier's permanent psynergy into one of his alternate classes? I ask because he lost the rest of the Frost tree in his base class and I don't know if the Glacier tree shows up in any other class.
seeing how frost is an utility spell, it needs either to be always available (piers) or to be available to the character's main class (ivan's whirlwind), and the first is always preferable (i'd gladly make ivan's whirlwind permanent like piers' frost if it could be done). While reverting to base class is easy by pressing R+select in the djinn menu, having to switch djinn around in order to advance in the main story would be very frustrating IMO. As for why piers doesn't have that specific spell line in other classes, it's cause the frost line is too weak.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 09, October, 2015, 05:17:53 PM
There were a few spots in vanilla where Growth was needed and it was not on anyone's base class. I understand that this was fixed with the alterations to Felix in this patch, but it's not without precedent. While the Frost line itself being weak is probably justified, I don't think any other line of psynergy has been straight up ignored. It could be buffed, altered to have additional effects, or conpletely replace the Haunt, Curse, Condemn line, useless that those are.

I'm probably backing this crappy Psynergy line a little strongly, but I didn't like seeing Frost just sit alone on Piers since now none of his spells are ice-related in the least, nor is his character. And yet, canonically and in cutscenes, he has Frost and has used it. Yet it hangs there, undeveloped.

I dunno. I'm away from the computer with my save games and the TLA editor, but I'll have to look at spell lines for other Mercury classes.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 09, October, 2015, 07:13:00 PM
I don't think it is the only one. In GS you see Flare only in the prologue from Jenna (Garet has Blast), while tla lacks Quake and Bolt for the same reason. Ivan's whirlwind suffers from the same issue. His base class has it but he doesn't learn tornado nor tempest. Even vanilla piers was the same, just douse and frost were switched.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 09, October, 2015, 08:21:21 PM
Fair enough. Getting Growth on base Felix was pretty convientent, as I'm sure I've mentioned before.

Also, it's just Salt that removes the Haunt status, right? Or is there another Djinn? I suppose it would be good to try and balance the Haunt status, but it's something you HAVE to spend money on (or die, but same problem early) in order to fix early game. Could present problems with backtracking and forcing people to leave when deep in a dungeon, though I don't think there would be many situations like that, with how relatively cheap healing is.

EDIT: I checked. Both Salt and Tonic remove Haunt.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 09, October, 2015, 08:28:56 PM
Well actually the base class changes was mostly for fluff. I wanted to differentiate characters despite having the same element so i made those "branches". Earth/Plant for Venus, Blast/Flame for Mars, Bolt/Wind for Jupiter and Ice/Water for Mercury. Whirlwind to Ivan and Frost to Piers don't fit but are needed and (thankfully) justified by them using those psynergies in cutscenes.

As for haunt/salt i need to check but this is certainly something i'll have to keep in mind, so thanks.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 10, October, 2015, 02:22:56 AM
Hey Cal,

Just a house-cleaning post. I was checking classes with the editor and noticed you have the level for learning Thorn and Cure Poison is flipped. For Venus Swordsmen/Defender/Valiant/Fearless/Paragon, you learn Thorn at 5 and Cure Poison at 4. For Venus Protector, Thorn is learned at level 4 and Cure Poison at level 5. This definitely does not feel like something worth putting out a patch for by itself; throw this in with something worthwhile.

I'm going to keep looking for little stuff like this with the editor as I learn how to better use it myself. If I find anything else, I'll edit this post.

Found issues go here: (None)



Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 10, October, 2015, 02:49:07 AM
Thanks, fixed. I'll wait for more input before releasing a patch tough, since this one is a pretty much harmless bug.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 11, October, 2015, 12:36:39 AM
Screw the new icons, it has to be done.
v1.25 is coming.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 11, October, 2015, 03:43:12 AM
Yeah, I just checked the Glacier line's base power, I had no idea it topped out at 100. Pretty weak, you were right. Flare Storm at 80 is also pretty low, though you do get these extremely early.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 11, October, 2015, 04:51:26 PM
v1.25 released!

The first post has been updated and contains all kinds of info regarding the new version.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 13, October, 2015, 03:07:17 AM
Hey, can't tell if it's just my ROM, but on a clean ROM, Stealth Armor has +15 Jupiter Power twice, whereas before it was +15 Venus Power and +15 Jupiter Power.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 13, October, 2015, 04:55:54 AM
It's not your ROM, I messed up. -.-
I'll upload the patch this evening (maybe something else pops up in the meantime).


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Aurorain on 13, October, 2015, 08:01:09 AM
Phew...finally finished my run through of the lost age(and doing the first one before it of course). This was a really good rebalancing, and made a lot of the game much harder than the original.

Just a few notes of my time with the superbosses/final boss: Balrog and Sentinel were extremely difficult the first few times I tried fighting them, though I managed to eventually win after getting to around the 40's. I still nearly died on both, but made it through. Star Magician...I'm not going to lie, he was incredibly easy for me. Just buffed up my resistances, sealed his psynergy, and used barriers now and then(rinse and repeat with Felix walloping him with Armageddons xD), and made sure to take out the refresh balls out as soon as they popped up.

Dullahan was where the -real- challenge of the game came in. That thing was ridiculous to fight, with constant sealing him, one or sometimes two characters attacking(when no one needed buffing)to keep up with how much he kept healing every turn, and Mia/Jenna constantly healing as well. If I screwed up even once, my party was dead. That's a good challenge, really.

Then the Doom Dragon, while not quite up to par with Dullahan in terms of damage dealing, the fact that it can use Djinn Blast/Storm even while using a seal on it, made it quite a struggle, since I had to constantly switch back and forth characters that got blasted. A good final boss from the original made even better though.

Anywho, really enjoyed playing through it, awesome hack Caledor~  :happy:


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 13, October, 2015, 10:14:27 AM
Thank you for playing this hack till the end and for your feedback aurorain!

Now, regarding your notes: balrog should be beatable in the 35-40 range, so if there was no chance for you to win in that range i'll have to nerf him a bit. SM should follow in the 38-42 range and then sentinel after hitting 40. I consider trying to fight dullahan before 50-55 (for access to most/all psynergies) nothing less than suicide. It still depends on class setup but at the very least 46 for pure wish is mandatory.

About SM. It is troubling if he's too easy, so i'd like you to be more detailed. For example how and how often did you seal his psynergy? What did he do while sealed (yup, i never thought of sealing him, but he should still be able to use call and mine ball, right)?

Sealing dullahan: seriously? doesn't it make djinn storm come faster cause he skips his psynergy while sealed?

EDIT: just got a pretty nasty idea for the star magician~


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 13, October, 2015, 05:05:14 PM
Quote
just got a pretty nasty idea for Star Magician

Please god, no. Although I did use the same strategy that Aurorain did, I didn't bother sealing his psynergy; I just kept everyone's resistance buffed and killed all the non-Thunder Balls. Compared to Sentinel and Balrog, Star Magician was easier. I wouldn't touch Refresh Balls, though. They're already huge "kill me now" targets and have Break to really screw you over. Maybe buffing Star Magician himself somehow to force players to make him call Balls more often?

Also, I didn't level drop where I was when I beat most of the superbosses. I was above 40 and before 46 at least for all of them minus Dullahan, for whom I will be level 54 at least (just for access to every single psynergy.) I'll probably try to beat him in the next couple days, not looking forward to that fight ._.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 13, October, 2015, 05:20:48 PM
refresh balls are fine. what worries me is that the SM might wast too much time in summoning those balls that end up being just divert, where the player kills them all with 3 multi target psy and has a fourth pg on healing duty. I'll try fighting him myself before releasing, with a level 41 party.

EDIT: ok, 3 turn star magician is unbeatable without lowering a lot the balls' hp. back to 2

EDIT2: v1.25a uploaded.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 13, October, 2015, 11:27:08 PM
Yeah, I just checked the Glacier line's base power, I had no idea it topped out at 100. Pretty weak, you were right. Flare Storm at 80 is also pretty low, though you do get these extremely early.
Glacier is a basic spell line.  It's not supposed to be super powerful - it's about on the same tier as quake and growth.

@Caledor:  New icons? 


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 14, October, 2015, 05:56:36 AM
@Caledor:  New icons?  
What about them?

EDIT: Ok 2-turn SM is impossible to balance cause he completely lacks the raw firepower (coupled with stat-lowering abilities) that Balrog and Sentinel have... going back to test the 3 turn one...


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Aurorain on 14, October, 2015, 10:44:52 PM
What made the star magician easy for me, is because he only uses psynergy, and calling other balls as reinforcements. Sure, he throws a mine now and then, but if you have him alone with nothing but thunder and angry balls, while your resistances are buffed up as high as possible, as well as constantly sealing his psynergy off with a djinn...it got to a point where I barely even had to try anymore. xD

Not to mention, I also had break on hand, rendering the buffs(other than guard aura of course) from his guardian balls pointless, and I killed his refresh balls immediately(at most, pure wish only got used on the enemy side around two times the entire fight) so they couldn't heal him or use break on my party.

The abilities that other superbosses had for example, Sentinel has his psynergy immunity crippling all mage-types on top of also crushing my resistances with his mind crush attack, and Balrog with his never ending djinn stealing and summon usage as well as stunning my characters with his stun jip allowed him to obliterate my party most of the time(flora, and haures were pretty much slow but effective death sentences for half of my party with their status effects, and coatlicue I had to make sure he never got off considering it's a full heal for him).

The star magician, however...he really doesn't have anything special like the other bosses, instead letting his reinforcements handle the fight for him, but if they're all only damaging ones then he's going to be hardly a challenge, considering on top of the resist buffs I mentioned above, you can stack jupiter/mars resistance with armor(like cosmos shield, ardagh robe, flame shield, etc.) and not take much damage from anything they do. Which, amounted to an easy battle, especially since I had just gotten through fighting balrog and sentinel beforehand, so I was prepared well. xD

As for Dullahan, no his AI while sealed causes him to only use element swap, fulminous edge, dark contact, and a regular attack. While sealed, he never used anything aside from those skills at any point in the entire fight. It was the only way I could win against him however because of that, even with my entire party around 50. If either two of my characters I had able to seal with djinns weren't able to do so, then he'd use djinn storm, and use charon on me right after bringing me to an instant defeat.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 15, October, 2015, 03:17:07 PM
You know, checking the editor, I believe there's a couple different versions of Dullahan in the enemies list. Is it possible one of those is on the field instead of the planned one?

I have no real knowledge of doing any of the map or field editing, so I'm just guessing.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 15, October, 2015, 09:54:46 PM
@Aurorain. Will try and test SM a lot before releasing again, thanks for all those useful tips.
@Varden: All three dullahans are used, but 2nd and 3rd are used only to determine his moveset. I'll also have to check that sealed dullahan thing personally.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 15, October, 2015, 10:14:38 PM
@New icons: The thing you were saying when you basically went "Screw it, I'm updating it"


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 15, October, 2015, 10:18:54 PM
@New icons: The thing you were saying when you basically went "Screw it, I'm updating it"
I can't make new icons so i had to recycle existing ones


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: JamietheFlameUser on 17, October, 2015, 08:15:30 PM
You could increase the PP reserves of the Thunder/Anger Balls to increase their damage output? I dunno.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 17, October, 2015, 08:20:49 PM
You could increase the PP reserves of the Thunder/Anger Balls to increase their damage output? I dunno.
of course, that's also an option


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Aurorain on 18, October, 2015, 03:13:10 AM
Maybe along with increasing their maximum PP give the Thunder Balls their last spell tiers? Shouldn't really be any reason why at that point in the game they're using something like Storm Ray or Flash Bolt over Destruct Ray and Blue Bolt anyway, especially considering that the Anger Balls are using Liquifier and Dragon Fume. Giving them Scourge would be pretty nice too I think.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 18, October, 2015, 03:34:20 AM
Maybe along with increasing their maximum PP give the Thunder Balls their last spell tiers? Shouldn't really be any reason why at that point in the game they're using something like Storm Ray or Flash Bolt over Destruct Ray and Blue Bolt anyway, especially considering that the Anger Balls are using Liquifier and Dragon Fume. Giving them Scourge would be pretty nice too I think.
their spells have already been upgraded as of 1.25a. the point is that it's nowhere near enough.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Sora167 on 19, October, 2015, 04:36:00 AM
Hey! Just started playing both of these patches, and I've gotta say I am really enjoying them. The difficulty level when you first start is insane haha. However, I've noticed on the TLA patch, that some things are incorrectly named. For example, Flare is called "Jenna (Now its changed to Felix)", and Herbs are called "Felix! ones d al" and have a description of "Din". Hope you don't mind me pointing them out. If I notice anything else I'll let you know :)

Keep up the good work!

EDIT: Just got a little further into the patch, and all the new things names are completely messed up :(


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 19, October, 2015, 04:52:06 AM
Thanks for trying both of them and for your kind words.
Regarding TLA, are you sure you followed the patching procedure correctly (clean english rom, nothing patched after...)?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Sora167 on 19, October, 2015, 05:10:59 AM
Thanks for trying both of them and for your kind words.
Regarding TLA, are you sure you followed the patching procedure correctly (clean english rom, nothing patched after...)?

Well I feel stupid now XD. Forgot I was using the one I had been editing myself haha. Working perfectly fine now ^^


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Sora167 on 19, October, 2015, 10:36:12 AM
The damage on bosses/Djinn's from my psynergy is really high. Like I finished off the 3 Chestbeaters with one Whirlwind from Sheba. (It did about 300-400 damage on them). With normal enemies it does about 70-80 damage.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 19, October, 2015, 11:31:08 AM
The damage on bosses/Djinn's from my psynergy is really high. Like I finished off the 3 Chestbeaters with one Whirlwind from Sheba. (It did about 300-400 damage on them). With normal enemies it does about 70-80 damage.
70-80 is still an awful lot. Please try patching an EUROPEAN english rom while i test against the chestbeaters with my rom.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 20, October, 2015, 03:16:43 AM
Alright, I beat Dullahan, in a very, very unexpected way. But it's funny enough to tell, so:

Lachesis' Rule has to be bugged out somehow, but checking the editor didn't show me anything. Sheba, with Final Judgement, was doing 7200+ damage to Dullahan. I have absolutely no idea why her damage was so high, but I used Flash and Kite on the first turn, and Haze on the second turn. Sheba did over 22,000 damage by herself. Hilarious.

Until I noticed that Sheba had acquired accidental omnipotence, Dullahan was just destroying me. Independent of party set-up my average first two turns from Dullahan looked like this:

Me: Guardian, Guardian, Resist, Use one of two Djinn to seal Dullahan Psynergy
Dullahan: Break / Dark Contact, Charon / Fulminous Edge, Djinn Storm / Charon (minimum of one party member is dead and every one is sub 400 hp)

- OR -

Me: Guardian, Guardian, Resist, Shade / Flash
Dullahan: Break / Dark Contact, Charon / Fulminous Edge, Djinn Storm / Charon (One party member is always dead, 100% of every time)

The luck on my champs is not that low; I have no idea why Charon consistently kills two members of my party, one virtually every time. Fulminous Edge is doing 650-700 damage independent of the boosts I put down (expect Flash / Shade). Charon is just royally @#$%&*! me over. I might try some weird high Luck party with Lull, but, yeah. I dunno, man.



Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 20, October, 2015, 09:39:47 AM
this happens when the summon HP% damage table becomes messed up and grants insane boosts to (some) base damage type attacks.
The most likely cause to this is using an american rom to patch the game onto, so trying with an european english rom might solve the issue (the next patch will convert all usa roms into european ones, solving the issue for good).

Charon: death has a 20% base success rate, which is affected by luck, by elemental levels and by distance from the main target. Here's the formula (unless for summons it's somehow different):

Success rate % = ((((Attacker's_Elemental_Level - Target's_Elemental_Level) - Target's_Luck/2) * 3) + Base_Chance + (vulnerabity's_25)) * Distance_Factor

In case of Dullahan's charon, he has an elemental level of 17. If the main target (distance_factor = 1) is a character with low luck (~5) and a venus level of 0, the chanche of success is ((17 - 0 + ~5/2)*3 + 20 + (0 or 25)) * 1 = ~65%. If the target was also in the Paladin or Holy Knight class tree (the only classes vulnerable to Death), that number would have been increased by 25 (that's what vulnerabity's_25 is).
Distance_Factor is 1 for the main target, 0.6 for the characters one position away the central target and 0.3 for the character 2 positions away.

Fulminous Edge has a multiplier of 2.8, that coupled with dullahan's 845 attack is bound to hurt. Raising defense or elemental resistance does not affect it that much, BUT...
dully has a vulnerability too...

Long story short, he's not an enemy you can fight without a proper strategy and careful preparation.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 20, October, 2015, 04:22:12 PM
1.25b uploaded


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: JamietheFlameUser on 20, October, 2015, 07:17:19 PM
Fulminous Edge has a multiplier of 2.8, that coupled with dullahan's 845 attack is bound to hurt. Raising defense or elemental resistance does not affect it that much, BUT...
dully has a vulnerability too...
Actually, the effect of Defence on a multiplier-type attack should be greater the higher the multiplier is. Reason is, it calculates the damage the attack would deal with a 1.0x multiplier and then multiplies that.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 20, October, 2015, 07:22:04 PM
Fulminous Edge has a multiplier of 2.8, that coupled with dullahan's 845 attack is bound to hurt. Raising defense or elemental resistance does not affect it that much, BUT...
dully has a vulnerability too...
Actually, the effect of Defence on a multiplier-type attack should be greater the higher the multiplier is. Reason is, it calculates the damage the attack would deal with a 1.0x multiplier and then multiplies that.
of course. but what i meant is that is inefficent compared to the *other* trick i tried to suggest in the spoiler.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 21, October, 2015, 04:29:24 PM
HERE (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4izpdMnaorha3FkdnIzY0IzRUk/view?usp=sharing)'s a TLA save file with all characters at level 41, most endgame gear (i think the only two thing i don't have are the new ker's weight and dark robe) and all djinn, at Contigo. No superboss defeated. Uploaded especially for those who wanted to try fighting the new Star Magician, the other superbosses or just to try different builds.
Enjoy!


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Sora167 on 22, October, 2015, 07:12:43 AM
HERE (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4izpdMnaorha3FkdnIzY0IzRUk/view?usp=sharing)'s a TLA save file with all characters at level 41, most endgame gear (i think the only two thing i don't have are the new ker's weight and dark robe) and all djinn, at Contigo. No superboss defeated. Uploaded especially for those who wanted to try fighting the new Star Magician, the other superbosses or just to try different builds.
Enjoy!

That's awesome thankyou :D I wanted to see what had changed at higher levels, and the endgame gear etc.
Can I ask, how did you change the way base damage psynergy works, so its affected by PP?? As I'm trying to make my own personal edit, and your idea of PP affected psynergy is an amazing idea!


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 22, October, 2015, 07:20:32 AM
I edited the base damage formula. The story behind it is in the few first pages of this thread. I also released the PP multiplier patch as a standalone thing so if you want you can just download that patch and apply it to your rom. It's in the download section, both for GS and for TLA


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Aurorain on 22, October, 2015, 02:26:39 PM
HERE (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4izpdMnaorha3FkdnIzY0IzRUk/view?usp=sharing)'s a TLA save file with all characters at level 41, most endgame gear (i think the only two thing i don't have are the new ker's weight and dark robe) and all djinn, at Contigo. No superboss defeated. Uploaded especially for those who wanted to try fighting the new Star Magician, the other superbosses or just to try different builds.
Enjoy!
Neat, I'll try to test it out whenever I get the time. :)


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Sora167 on 22, October, 2015, 03:00:27 PM
I searched and searched for the info about it, but no luck  :sad: Tbh, I didn't really know what I was looking for. I've been using the editor to edit my games, so the PP patch doesn't work with it.  :fury: . I wish there was a way to edit the editor lol, as I'm useless at hacking.

On another note, Saturos just obliterated my party. Time to grind some more, yay. He is so much harder in this patch. I am struggling with the lack of cheap damage (summons).


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 22, October, 2015, 03:15:23 PM
I searched and searched for the info about it, but no luck  :sad: Tbh, I didn't really know what I was looking for lol. I've been using the editor to edit my games, so the PP patch doesn't work with it.  :fury: . I wish there was a way to edit the editor lol, as I'm useless at hacking.

On another note, Saturos just obliterated my party. Time to grind some more, yay. He is so much harder in this patch. I am struggling with the lack of cheap damage (summons).
Why shouldn't it work? The only patch it conflicts with is the simple summons from Lord Squirtle cause it's already included in mine.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Sora167 on 22, October, 2015, 05:31:47 PM
I tried it out with my edited ROM, and the names of everything had completely messed up. Will give it another go though. Also, beat Saturos yay. Its so nice having him be an ACTUAL challenge now, like you expect (even though he is weakened by the Mercury Lighthouse)


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 28, October, 2015, 06:21:09 PM
Fox's little tool works wonders! 1.26 is coming!

(http://i.imgur.com/wVyoG3n.png)


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 28, October, 2015, 10:08:18 PM
This pleases me greatly.

Let me know if you want any custom icons. :3


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 28, October, 2015, 10:12:37 PM
Well I lack Meltdown, Tyrfing, Ker's Weight, and Dark Robe icons. Would you like to give it a shot?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 29, October, 2015, 11:30:35 AM
Give me a description of each so I have something to work with, and I'll give it a shot. ^-^


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 29, October, 2015, 11:44:50 AM
Tyrfing is a Venus equivalent of Quick Strike. It uses the animation of Titan Blade, so i was thinking of something like a vertical ragnarok/odissey with small rocks behind it for the icon. (it uses ragnarock's icon for now)

Meltdown is the Mars equivalent of Quick Strike. It uses the animation of Purgatory, so... a tweaked Supernova? (it uses liquifier's icon for now)

Ker's Weight is a cursed staff, the strongest of the game. It uses the demonic staff icon for now.

Dark Robe is a cursed robe (duh :P). It uses the ninja garb icon for now.

Thanks!



Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 29, October, 2015, 11:58:08 AM
I see.  If you had your way and also magical art powers, how would the staff and robe be described?  I think I can figure out something for the first two, though if you had a custom animation in your brain you could describe it'd help even more.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 29, October, 2015, 12:13:10 PM
Well, I'd rather have the Ker's look unique among the staves, like Clotho Lachesis and Atropo are, with dark colors and the red outline cursed items have.
About the Dark Robe, I used ninja garb again for the grey color and the red outline, but it doesn't look like a robe at all. So... maybe a tweaked, darker Jerkin/Blessed Robe/Oracle's Robe with a red outline and something that makes it look unique?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 29, October, 2015, 12:16:17 PM
...Okay... so in otherwords, you actually don't have a good idea of what you think they should look like.  Well, I'll come up with something then.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 29, October, 2015, 12:17:14 PM
Yes, sorry but i really didn't think about it that much for the 2 items.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 06, November, 2015, 01:01:49 AM
RIP new icons?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 06, November, 2015, 01:19:03 AM
RIP new icons?
The opposite, they are coming. Believe in Rolina! :P
As soon as I have them, 1.26 will be released with proper brand new icons where needed.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 09, November, 2015, 01:13:33 PM
Like I said in the chat, I was busy last week.  You should expect them within a few days.  I'd have been done sooner, but... well, you know.  Real life stuff comes first.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 09, November, 2015, 02:31:38 PM
Like i said, take your time. There's no hurry. ;)


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 13, November, 2015, 11:52:21 PM
Quick question - what strength are the robe and staff in comparison to other gear?  Should help me figure out how much detail to put into them, and which items to use as a base.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 13, November, 2015, 11:59:45 PM
strongest staff and strongest robe.
ker's slightly stronger than lachesis and dark robe has the highest defense among robes, to match how stealth armor has the highest defense among armors.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 14, November, 2015, 12:13:34 AM
(http://i.imgur.com/D29JMT8.png) - Tyrfing
(http://i.imgur.com/4zAwD1a.png) - Meltdown

I'm better with spells that with items - just to let you know.  

Consider looking into similar effects as Tyrfing, such as animation from Undead Sword.  I always saw that as a good Ragnarok counterpart for Felix.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 14, November, 2015, 12:23:07 AM
Thank you!
meltdown is just perfect. Exactly what i wanted.
tyrfing is also great, but i think i'll tinker with it a bit, i want to see if i can add some rocks near the sword.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 14, November, 2015, 12:44:14 AM
What's the unleash for the staff?  What element/animation?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 14, November, 2015, 12:45:50 AM
the unleash name is soul doom. element is venus and animation heartbreak
The name comes from the Keres, female death spirits from greek mytology.

From wikipedia:
"They were described as dark beings with gnashing teeth and claws and with a thirst for human blood. They would hover over the battlefield and search for dying and wounded men."

Also Kerostasia is the Weighing of souls, a method of divine determination of fate. when they were "observing" battles, gods used to weight the fighters' souls to determine who deserved victory and who death.

Hence Ker's Weight, which summons that dreadful looking spirit that has a chance to automatically kill the target.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 14, November, 2015, 12:53:03 AM
Best I've come up with for the dark robe is an Iris Robe recolor, and that doesn't meet my own standards...

Here's what' I've got for Ker's Weight:

(http://i.imgur.com/kej4bi4.png)


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 14, November, 2015, 01:01:47 AM
Looks really good. I'll tinker a bit with this one too (probably less red and add some black) but the most part is done. God knows how much time would have took me to reach this stage without your help... once i tried to make atropos rod similar to DD's one... i don't even know if it looked like a staff lol :P


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 14, November, 2015, 01:04:11 AM
I'm afraid I'm just not good with items and equipment, neither in GBA or DD styles.  My talent seems to be more in spell generation. :/


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 14, November, 2015, 01:18:03 AM
trust me, ker's looks really good. I'm just removing some red cause the sides look a bit too much like the ones of the demonic staff (= it's not entirely unique). If it didn't give me this "where have i seen this before" feel, i wouldn't have even touched it.

Edit @Role
i noticed two things: first, your tyrfing looks much more faithful to the animation than mine, so i'm probably gonna use that one and say goodbye to the rockish one i made. second, no matter how much i try i can't edit ker's to something that satisfies me (maybe cause it looks like clotho, which is by far the staff i like the least, or maybe it's the graphic filter on my vba or the palette... i don't really know) I'll probably try with a simpler design and see how it goes.

Also, this reminded me that i wanted to get rid of clotho's icon altogheter and replace it with something that looks like the ankh it is.

Edit 2: current versions
(http://i.imgur.com/qT8ZRtb.png) Ker's Weight
(http://i.imgur.com/M52ztUT.png) Tyrfing
(http://i.imgur.com/CNzaaTu.png) Meltdown

What do think about Ker's Weight, Role?
For the other two, i just shifted them a bit left or right to make them more centered.
Waiting for your Dark Robe! ;)

Edit 3:
(http://i.imgur.com/xMlenZp.png) Clotho's Distaff DD Style
Opinions? Should i add this to the mod?

In-game screenshot, x3 zoom with xBRZ filter (italian ROM)
(http://i.imgur.com/sJNLPo8.png)


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 16, November, 2015, 09:08:29 AM
No, it clashes with the art style. Stick with the old Clotho's Distaff - DD notably changed arstyles, so it's best to stick with what we have.

Ker's weight is too flat looking, I think.
Tyrfing's edit seems... minor
Meltdown's edit seems plain unnecessary.

Also, thought I implied that I couldn't get the robe edit to work...


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 16, November, 2015, 09:25:47 AM
Ah, i thought you just didn't manage on your first try. Fine then, i'll figure out something.

About Ker, I kinda gave up trying to make something unique and cool looking, so i just went for something simple but that looked both strong and evil. I'll try adding some details later but even if i don't manage i'm ok with it staying like that.

About Tyrfing... yes, it's really minor but maybe i went overboard with those particles... well, i'll know for sure when i see how it looks in game with filters and all.

About Meltdown. Actually, I just shifted the whole thing 2 pixels left to make it more centred. Was there some particular reason for yours to be so aligned to the right?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 16, November, 2015, 01:24:50 PM
Take a look at all the dark stuff in TLA's sprites.  You'll see that they're not as dark as you'd think.  It's freaking hard to get shading and detail right with only 15 colors to work with.  It's why I suck at items.

@Tyrfing and Meltdown:  Tyrfing was on the left, so I had Meltdown on the right.  I kinda liked how it looked off-center.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 16, November, 2015, 01:38:30 PM
i know, but currently it's the best options i have. i'm currently making minor changes to ker but for the most part i consider it done.

@Tyrfing & Meltdown. Oh, got it. well instead i actually tried making tyrfing also centered with particles on both sides but it didn't really look good.

@Clotho. roger that. I even tried making it gba style by recoloring the blessed ankh. Turned out i can't stand the original ankh look too. so, unless i redo all 3 ankhs things will stay like this.

Edit:
(http://i.imgur.com/biv5Du1.png) current ker
(http://i.imgur.com/ySelAPL.png) x3 zoom with xbrz filter


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Salanewt on 16, November, 2015, 06:51:53 PM
Just to add to the Tyrfing/Meltdown thing, they probably look better being off-centre when you compare them to icons like Death Plunge & Leap. Although those also had tiny additions to them on the left side. Meltdown in particular could probably go either way without something like that, although Tyrfing off-centre is cool.

Nice work with the icons again, Role!


Clotho: I sort of agree, but I have to admit that I do like that icon; it would probably look better with some slight edits as a different weapon.

Ker: Is it supposed to be cursed? If so, then I think it looks cool enough. Maybe even cooler with a yellow or dark green pixel rather than grey on the orb?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 16, November, 2015, 06:58:02 PM
@Squirtle
Yes Ker's Weight is cursed and is now the strongest staff (venus element). I'm trying slightly different designs, i'll upload them all when they're done

Edit:
(http://i.imgur.com/2JGIaeN.png) another version. less evil aura, longer and slightly more detailed handle, brown mark


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 16, November, 2015, 11:34:24 PM
Also... could you do me a favor and show it without the filter?  I think you're relying on it too much, considering not everyone's gonna be using it.  It'll need to look good without the filter too.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 17, November, 2015, 12:08:07 AM
Could you try upping the contrast on the part of the staff in front that wraps up the orb? I dunno what to call it, like the "fingers." It's just barely visible unless you zoom in hard.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 17, November, 2015, 12:09:10 PM
full aura made it seem too plain. also varden's suggestion was spot on and i think it looks better now.
@Squirtle. i tried every pixel the palette has to offer but imho dark grey looks best cause i don't want to be too noticeable.
(http://i.imgur.com/kaCctiI.png)(http://i.imgur.com/KFmh2nr.png)


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Salanewt on 17, November, 2015, 03:30:41 PM
That makes sense; in all honesty too, I really like the grey pixel now following Varden's suggestion. Nice work!


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 17, November, 2015, 03:49:41 PM
Good then, i'll start working on the Dark Robe. ;)

Edit:
First attempt
(http://i.imgur.com/yp3aZQ8.png)(http://i.imgur.com/sRhISgS.png)

Suggestions? Like about anything?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Salanewt on 17, November, 2015, 06:02:55 PM
I think I like it! There doesn't seem to be any lighting and/or shading like what other robes have, but that may actually work with this as a cursed item.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 17, November, 2015, 07:24:24 PM
Probably, but i'd really like to add some shading. it'd help make in making it more with the other icons. The problem is i'm really not good with graphics


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Salanewt on 17, November, 2015, 07:47:32 PM
I've been procrastinating a lot today, but if you'd like I can try my hand at a couple item icons for you in a few hours or so (assuming Role hasn't already volunteered of course, but it looks like she tends to make more ability icons than items). Icons and certain other sprites generally don't take long for me to make, and I think that robe in particular would take even less time because most of the work has already been done on it.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 17, November, 2015, 07:50:02 PM
I've been procrastinating a lot today, but if you'd like I can try my hand at a couple item icons for you in a few hours or so (assuming Role hasn't already volunteered of course, but it looks like she tends to make more ability icons than items). Icons and certain other sprites generally don't take long for me to make, and I think that robe in particular would take even less time because most of the work has already been done on it.

I've already done some changes to mine and i'll upload it here right after dinner. Anyway if you want to try i certainly won't stop you :P any help is really appreciated ofc ;)


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Salanewt on 17, November, 2015, 08:03:17 PM
Cool! I'll wait for you to post yours before I try my hand at it.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 17, November, 2015, 08:24:40 PM
turns out it's really minor and it doesn't work out the way i expected so i don't think there's a point in uploading it. maybe it's the black border that's interfering with the shading, i don't know. i think i'll see your take on it before making further changes.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Salanewt on 17, November, 2015, 08:50:38 PM
Okay. Have a meeting coming up, so I decided to take care of it beforehand (minus transparency and all of that; I'll let you deal with any of that yourself if you want). There are two versions, with the robe in the lower right being your original one. They are pretty much the same though, except one has a belt buckle and the other doesn't. That's a belt of some sort, right?

Oh, and the background of each is the standard 16x16, with the border adding another two pixels for LxW.

Let me know what you think!


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 17, November, 2015, 08:56:46 PM
great! so it really was the black border, uh? i think i can manage from here. and yes, it was a belt.
Thanks a lot!


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Salanewt on 17, November, 2015, 10:53:44 PM
Happy to help! I'm mostly just excited to see some new icons going into a GS hack for a change (I know why others haven't had them, but still).


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 17, November, 2015, 11:14:16 PM
Quick pool:
as you probably know, with magnet, arrow and reflect gone for the boon series, there is no more space left for new ability icons. This means that in order to add Tyrfing and Meltdown, something else has to leave (until someone manages to expand the pointer table).

ATM i think that the best options (those that hurt less) are 2:
- One or of the Samurai's buff psynergy series, since those are essentially duplicates of already existing psynergies.
- Baffle Card and Mist, which would be entirely replaced with Delude.

I'm inclined with starting from Baffle Card and Mist for Tyrfing and Meltdown, and save the samurai's for future icons (Punishment series?).

Your opinions?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Salanewt on 17, November, 2015, 11:51:14 PM
Well, expanding the pointer list should be pretty easy to do I think; the only downside is the editor wouldn't display the [new or any?] icons. GS2's icon lists are pretty easy to find (I'll scan the document for their locations if you want), but I don't know if GS1's are recorded anywhere.

That could always be done at some other point though. For now, I would also vote for Baffle Card/Mist to be replaced.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 18, November, 2015, 11:27:02 AM
if by icon list you mean the pointer list no need to worry as i already have the values for both gs1 and gs2.

I also think expanding the list would be easy (maybe as easy as repointing the whole pointer list to somewhere else in the rom), i just have no clue on where the useful value(s) might be :P.

As for the compatibility loss with the editor, i don't really care if it means that i can add new icons freely. I'll just set the new icons from the hex editor :D


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 18, November, 2015, 01:24:33 PM
Heh, like I said, shading and detail are the hardest things to do.  It's why I'm more comfortable making spells than items, particularly dark ones as we have few colors to work with for them.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 19, November, 2015, 03:09:10 PM
I have a question. Do Elder Wood and Estre Wood use the same icon?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 19, November, 2015, 03:47:14 PM
yes, they share the same icon.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 19, November, 2015, 08:22:49 PM
Gotcha.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 20, November, 2015, 12:06:26 AM
(http://i.imgur.com/FiJ701a.png)

I fear that this is as far as my art skills go. I really like the upper half... what bogs me is the lack of shading/lighting on the lower half, but I'm at a loss for what to do. Opinions?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Salanewt on 20, November, 2015, 12:34:35 AM
Hard to say. I made a few of the brown pixels beige instead and uploaded two different versions with the new highlights. #1 is rather subtle (perhaps too subtle), while #2 almost makes the brown trimming shiny looking; I think I prefer #2 in this case.

I'm still not 100% on the sleeves though. The lighter grey pixels look misplaced to me for some reason, but that could also just be a personal taste thing. I'll wait for you or someone else to weigh in on that before I suggest anymore changes.


1: (http://i.imgur.com/h3tvzgj.png)

2: (http://i.imgur.com/EoMknAU.png)


Edit: I also have to say, I'm really starting to like this robe icon. I may have to make a slightly different version to include in my own hack someday... nice work!


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 20, November, 2015, 04:30:25 PM
Your suggestions were spot on, Squirtle. Thanks a lot!

1- I finally gave up trying to lighten the dark grey (too much contrast with light grey) and started trying lightning the brown and darkening with black.
2- The sleeves. IMHO they look much better now.
3- Central black at the bottom. Single dot or 3? Images for comparison

(http://i.imgur.com/l2FAnl4.png)  (http://i.imgur.com/WcdNtVX.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/Uc4TARR.png)  (http://i.imgur.com/aHnaMgQ.png)


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Salanewt on 20, November, 2015, 05:02:51 PM
Looking good! I think I like the three pixel look better, especially in the actual icon because they don't stand out quite as much as the single pixel in the other one.

Can't think of anything else that could be done to improve it either. Maybe someone else will, but I honestly think this latest one is the best for what you're trying to do with it.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 20, November, 2015, 06:52:14 PM
yup, i think so too. Guess v1.26 will be coming very soon ;)

v1.26 is out!


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 21, November, 2015, 06:21:24 AM
[unintentionally long post ahead, I got carried away]

Ok, first things first. The staff icon looks awesome, as does the robe, but the staff is really just top notch. You all get extra praise because not only do the full icons look very solid, the focal points of the new icons are above the skull and E icons (signifying cursed and equipped) allowing them to still look both unique and not out of place. Whoever put that jeweled necklace(?) component into the robe gets a high-five; the color contrast ties the piece together.

Well, since we're in the mood to dump some icons for new ones, did you ever consider making a cursed glove/bracelet-type armor to round out the cursed-equipment sets?

Granted, I have no idea what the stats would be and I'm hesitant to suggest another late-game item to the game (because of the potential of power creep). If I can suggest an archetype for the proposed item, should you choose to make it, I suggest a more mid-game tuned item, one that hurts a bit statistically when you put it in the set, but with an effect useful enough that it's worth using on someone who's already cursed. If you're going to make an end-game item, however, you need some more thematic elements to tie the set together.

Theory-crafting on the cursed sets (Warrior vs. Mage):

Your Warrior set does a good job of feeling synergistic by giving each piece +Ele. pwr, but of different powers for the pieces, simultaneously forcing usage of the entire cursed set by the player (in order to maximize the value of the Angel Ring) and giving a kind of 'set bonus' for completing it (the +Ele. pwr bonuses in all the elements). Your Mage set makes each piece too strong on its own and the set collectively lacks the cohesiveness of the Warrior set, mostly due to the lack of a third piece to balance around. So, I think looking at all the items' EFFECTS as a single stat ball works best to see this, since the defense numbers are relatively non-thematic and binding, besides being very high.

Warrior set:
+15 :VenusStar: :MercuryStar: :MarsStar: :JupiterStar: Power (from 3 different pieces)
+20 Attack (2 pieces, helm and shield)
+++ Criticals (3 pieces)
+50 Max HP (1 piece, armor)
-30 Max PP (1 piece, helm)
(Darksword has no effects beyond 'Cursed' so it's inclusion or not makes no difference besides Angel Ring efficiency)

Alright, what do we have? Looks like a Dark/Blood Knight. +MaxHP to take hits, +magical offense stats, -mental attribute stats(in this case PP), and a large emphasis on criticals. And look how many different pieces contributed to similar stats. Well executed.

Mage set:
+20 :VenusStar: :MercuryStar: :MarsStar: :JupiterStar: Power (from only the robe)
+30 Max PP (from only the circlet)
-20 Max HP (just the circlet again)
+6 PP/turn (circlet)
+ Criticals (circlet)
(In this case, the staff actually adds + :VenusStar: Power and +Max PP, which is really nice and mage-y. By the way, this thing's icon just looks so great. Did I mention that?)

Ok then. As of now, the robe and the circlet do completely unrelated, but still helpful things. The robe adds so oomph with elements, the circlet with PP. Unfortunately, they don't seem to have anything to do with each other, which is kinda sad.

So, what if we did this:

Demon Circlet: +Defense (same), -Max HP (20 -> 20/25/30), +Max PP (same), + :JupiterStar: Power (0 -> 25), Increases Criticals (same), +PP/turn (6 -> 0)

I know what you're thinking, "where'd the +PP/turn go?" The answer: Well, here's the thing. Unlike with the warrior set, mages in this game are stuck between healing and casting, +PP/turn and +MaxPP. While your mod does an admirable job of making Psynergy much more effective, the fact of the matter is that you can't really make an item that is good for both healers and casters without making it either broken or too weak. You can either stick a good amount of +PP/turn on it and healers heal for free(-ish) or you stick +MaxPP on it and casters go to town. Since it's easier to balance healing around PP cost and casters don't invalidate the game if they're a bit too strong relatively (considering how weak they were in vanilla and the problem is closer to remedied but I don't think it can be perfect) I opted to take this set in a caster route. So, there may be a bit of +PP/turn in this set, but +MaxPP prevails.

Dark Robe: +Defense (same), +  :MarsStar: :MercuryStar: Power (20 -> 25), + :JupiterStar:  :VenusStar: Power (20 -> 0), +Max PP (0 -> 50), +PP/turn (0 -> 10)

There we go. Not only does the Robe half-mirror the Stealth Armor numerically (+50 HP vs +50 PP) where something like the Terror Shield adds crit, we add +PP/turn. If you think the numbers are bonkers on the +PP, you can always pull em back. For comparison, Spirit Gloves give, +20, Jester's gives +25, Minerva gives +20, Demon Circlet gives +30, and the Iridial Ring gives +15. There may be others.

So, we need a third item to complete this. The [insert new item name here] to the Warrior set's Terror Shield; something that has the offensive characteristics of the class without a relatively weird stat like the Stealth Armor's +MaxHP or the Fear Helm's -MaxPP. So, here's what I got.

Seker's Gages: +Defense (43), + :VenusStar: Power (25), +Max PP (25), +PP/turn (10), Increases Criticals.

Defense is just a hair over the Big Bang Gloves, but Jenna wants the + :MarsStar: Power for big Auras when combined with Atropos'. The +MaxPP is level with Jester's and The +PP/turn has to be just low enough that a Psychic Circlet/Mysterious Robe/Iridial Ring is still the go to set-up for healers, requiring a lot of dedicated resources to keep the PP flowing at the cost of some +MaxPP better used on a caster. If you think this is too strong because casters get +Ele. Power and +MaxPP from staffs, just dump critics and stick another -25 MaxHP on it and bump the defense one point to compensate.

Stat round-up with new item:

+25 :VenusStar: :MercuryStar: :MarsStar: :JupiterStar: Power (from 3 pieces)
+105 MaxPP (from 3 pieces)
+20 PP/turn (from 2 pieces, robe and gloves)
-20/25/30 MaxHP (just 1 piece, circlet)
++ Criticals (2 pieces, gloves and circlet)

Sacrifice life points, acquire +MaxPP. Blood mages trade life for power, and now so do the items. Can always make it cost more life and bump defense up a touch. Plus now the set now comes into its own, with each piece adding something complementary, as well as informing the unaware that there's another item or two necessary to complete the set. How are you supposed to know to go looking for Serek's if the Robe gives all the +Ele Power and the Circlet gives all the +Max PP? Or even to go looking for the Robe in general? Now there's clues.

I guess this got a little lengthy. Sorry about that. I don't expect a response of comparable length. I just like thematic consistency.




Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Daddy Poi's Oily Gorillas on 21, November, 2015, 09:26:40 AM
*Actually looks at the first post for a sec, and then stumbles on a question(s).*

#1: GS1 PC id:
Quote
Getting rid of partial classes will probably be impossible in the first GS 'cause the character id is not carried over into the formula like in TLA.
Can you explain to me how this is the case?
Both GS1 and GS2 have the first argument (r0 at the beginning of the function) be the PC id... but for later use in the function, they move it to different registers. GS1 moves it to r5, while GS2 moves it to r7.
Anyway, GS2 does have r2/item as an argument, but GS1 doesn't.... and that's probably the main difference between GS1/GS2 class assigning....

080799B0 (GS1 class match function.)
080B0144 (GS2 class match function.)


@GS1:
080799D8 = Checks flag 0x20. (Basically if young Isaac/Garet/etc. or not, I think.) (0x21 would be the Machette flag, but it isn't used here.)
080799E4 = Compares PC to Isaac. (Class id=0xc8) (Only executed if flag 0x20)
080799EA = Compares PC to Garet. (Class id=0xc9) (Only executed if flag 0x20)
080799F0 = Compares PC to Jenna. (Class id=0xca)

^ These assign the class id directly... instead of class type.  But the code pass this deals with class type... (Only executed if none of the above conditions were meant, and if PC id is 0-7.)


Hmm? So you have it set up like this?
Felix and Isaac use class type 20 for base class.
Class type 20-29 = Isaac, going up by 10s for each character until 99?
And class type 0-19 are entirely unused? (With the exception of item classes.)
Three of Garet's classes get switched to Isaac's, and  three of Mia's classes get switched to Sheba''s. (All of which are not the respective class(?)....)
( Have to double check because I can be clumsy sometimes. :( )

(Not sure if there's a way to clean this up, but maybe....)
Doing something like (1 << primary) | (1 << secondary) ... instead of the class type chart.... hmmm.... may be interesting to think about, but haven't really thought much about it. (Except that you now will get unused class types in between the gaps doing that... so a better formula could do...)

(It could be useful to make sure dual classes are dual-only, and in the event you are sure you don't care about elemental priority and want to further separate things... maybe... and in that case..  you could also change the first bit so it just gets elements above level 0... instead of looking for the top two or more elements.  It might even be enough to insert your code without needing to branch outside the function, but I dunno.  - However, I doubt including the third and fourth elements would be worth doing... depending on what changes you make.)


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Daddy Poi's Oily Gorillas on 21, November, 2015, 09:30:07 AM
Removed. (Accidentally double posted. It happens. Kind of wish posts auto-merged... Or at least have a message pop up that you are double posting...  oh well.)


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 21, November, 2015, 04:04:34 PM
@Varden: i did consider making a cursed bracelet at first, and distribute bonuses among 3 items (circlet robe and bracelet) like you suggested (and for the same reasons: thematic consistency) but then i gave up and switched to two and the absurdly long post that follows (:P) is meant to explain why. The premise of cursed items is that they have to be very strong to maximize the effectiveness of the angel's ring. This lead me to designing items in a way that once you slap the items on a character, the full set just builds on its own cause the cursed items are simply the best among the other options you have.

For the cursed warrior set it was amazingly easy to do so. I just had to give each item + critical bonuses in a way that they were at least on par with others of the same category and the other bonuses (+hp, +power, +defense and +attack) shifted automatically the balance towards them. For example, try removing a measly 5 crit bonus from the terror shield... to me the riot gloves suddenly look stronger (despite higher defence and +15maPower on the shield) cause crits are just that important to warriors.

For cursed mages wasn't that easy. Mages have no must boost attribute like warriors do, but they instead rely on a limited amount of bonuses that depends on class, element(s), and purpose (caster/healer).
Those are +Power (usually distributed among robe and glove/bracelet) and +maxPP OR +PP/turn (usually on the circlet). +Resistance and + criticals are added bonuses of lower importance.
So here was my problem. "How do I spread 2/3 bonuses among 3 items in a way that EVERY (caster) mage picks them once i give him the angel ring?"

- Spread the 4 power boosts among robe and glove? Since this is a multi element bonus, the values are likely going to be lower than single element boosts despite the cursed status. This would lead to many situations where casters are more likely to renounce either the robe or the bracelet for a non cursed one that suits them the best. For example if i give + Ma/Ve to the robe and +Ju/Me to the bracelet, Miko Jenna picks the big bang gloves or the titan gloves all the time, while fateweaver Sheba wouldn't have any reasons to renounce the aeolian cassock for the dark robe independently of what other amazing bonuses i give it.
- 4 power bonuses on both bracelet and robe? Same issue: numbers too low on the bracelet and due to mages specializing in one or two element at most, other options would be better. Not to mention that i'd have no more space left on the same item for other bonuses.
- Broken combinations/Weak items. The "other bonuses" apart from +power are +maxPP and (especially) +PP/turn. There's a reason +PP/turn is mostly confined to circlets and it's that thing might get out of hand if i start spreading pp regen on too many items. For example, try replacing the demon circlet on the set you designed with the psychic circlet. You suddenly have the ultimate healer: someone that can spam Pure wish at 16 PP per turn with increased power and bigger PP pool on top of it. The first reaction to that would be lowering the values, but then the bonuses suddenly mean very little and the single items start getting overlooked for others again.

So here's why i got to full power robe and PP circlet. The robe power values are generally lower then the glove/bracelet (only exception is mercury IIRC, the element best suited for healing while the cursed set focuses on offense), so mages would pick the robe and specialize with the non-cursed glove/bracelet choosing either one of the 4 +power or the major +critical on the mythril bracelet. Something that, as explained above, would've more often than not happened anyway.
The circlet instead boosts both max pp and +pp/turn making it a very solid choice for any mage (despite the HP malus) while avoiding at the same time potential brokenness.

However, I must say that i didn't consider a cursed +Ve power bracelet. I like the idea of it complementing the Ker's Weight and it can exist alongside the Titan Gloves due to the +crit bonus it would surely have. I'll think about it but i really like the concept.

PS. thanks for the praise on the items looks :D

@Fox I really don't know which function you're talking about. in gs2, as you've seen, i edited the one showed in the class separation patch topic, so i looked for the same one in gs1 but i never saw the PC id there. Maybe it exists at an earlier point? Sorry but i'm writing from memory cause I still haven't checked the addresses you wrote, I'll probably do it tomorrow.

Quote
Class type 20-29 = Isaac, going up by 10s for each character until 99?
And class type 0-19 are entirely unused? (With the exception of item classes.)
Three of Garet's classes get switched to Isaac's, and three of Mia's classes get switched to Sheba''s. (All of which are not the respective class(?)....)
All correct. Felix gets switched to Isaac unless he's on base class. The reason Sheba doesn't do the same with Ivan is due to the function being also used for my Italian rom. In Italian nouns and adjectives change with gender (male wizard = female wizard -> magO/magA) so she takes hers from Mia instead.
Quote
Except that you now will get unused class types in between the gaps doing that... so a better formula could do...
the only reason i started from 20... i wanted to avoid as many headaches as possible.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 21, November, 2015, 04:33:21 PM
That's cute.  You guys think those posts are long. :P

It's really tough to balance for spell power when there isn't proper stat support.  I think you did a really good job on that front all things considered.  I think my only real complaint about this can be chalked up to a difference in philosophy, and that's the approach to classes - and that's solidly a "to each their own" kinda thing with no real right answer.  Still, good work all around.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Daddy Poi's Oily Gorillas on 21, November, 2015, 05:30:30 PM
Quote
I really don't know which function you're talking about. in gs2, as you've seen, i edited the one showed in the class separation patch topic, so i looked for the same one in gs1 but i never saw the PC id there. Maybe it exists at an earlier point? Sorry but i'm writing from memory cause I still haven't checked the addresses you wrote, I'll probably do it tomorrow.
Oh yeah, that's right... @080799FE, r5 is overwritten with the contents of r8. (Which is 0xFFFFFFFF) - It's probably because they decided they didn't need it anymore at that point, so you can probably rewrite it to suit your needs. (Easy when the formula/function isn't that long. Well, not nearly as long as the damage formula/function, anyway.)

Quote
All correct. Felix gets switched to Isaac unless he's on base class. The reason Sheba doesn't do the same with Ivan is due to the function being also used for my Italian rom. In Italian nouns and adjectives change with gender (male wizard = female wizard -> magO/magA) so she takes hers from Mia instead.
Sounds useful to know. Thanks! - And yeah, I understand the male/female thing... since I think that's how it workks in Spanish as well.... (Although this might not be 100% of the time...(Not sure?) Basically, if it ends in O, it's probably male, if it ends in A it is probably female... And even in English you can see that a little bit with some nouns (Maybe cognates... words like pinata.), but it's probably quite rare in comparison... so mostly just names(?).)

Quote
the only reason i started from 20... i wanted to avoid as many headaches as possible.
Alright... (I think you quoted the wrong sentence(?).. well sort of, and sort of not... since that one was referring to my idea.)


---
Quote
That's cute.  You guys think those posts are long. :P
Well, it is a long post for casual chats... but for technical information and serious debate, not nearly as much at all.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 21, November, 2015, 06:09:13 PM
@Cal:

I agree, with pretty much the entirety of you post. Your line of reasoning was what I had pretty much guessed at for the decisions you made. While I don't necessarily subscribe to the idea that people would go halfway with build options, due to the needed efficiency of Angel Ring usage, I didn't take enough of a sheer min-maxing attitude into account. Thank you for the compliment on the nature of the cursed gloves I pitched.

Mages are difficult, if not impossible, to balance for given the relative lack of balance "levers", per se. So the fact that two distinct archetypes rose from one simple combined stat pool. Add in the fact that at around Lemuria, dungeons become relatively easier and total psynergy pool becomes much less of a deterrent to simply healing after almost every battle. Given that random encounters go for 3 turns max and boss encounters can go for many, many more and it becomes simply impossible to balance for both states.

To Camelot's credit, there is in-universe justification for this problem, as every character casts spells and hits things with sharp objects of various make and model, so the lines between classes are blurred. Doesn't make it any less of a pain from a balance standpoint.

I don't even know if it's possible to create a 'set' for mages in the same way as for warriors, but the exercise itself was entertaining enough.

I do wish that this game did a better job at pointing non-wiki-using players toward rare drops; it really is impossible to know where the majority of them are. But that is an entirely different problem.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 21, November, 2015, 08:32:44 PM
Yeah, that's one of the reasons I've moved away from the editor as a means of creating what I want.  Separating it into PP, Casting, and Warding gives us those levers for stats, and making magnitude and ability type distinct from one another gives us more to work with over in the ability side of things.  These are things that Vanilla GS doesn't really have built-in support for, unfortunately.

With luck, OpenGS will have support for adding that kind of thing.  I really hope he doesn't just re-create what's done in vanilla beat for beat - a little flexibility will go a hell of a long way.

Man... could you imagine what a reblanced GS could look like if we could do that?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 22, November, 2015, 03:15:00 AM
@Role: just thanks. and yes, by now we pretty much know each other's viewpoint on classes. ;)

@Fox: the "probably" part is what makes italian a nightmare for foreigners. an example? prophet -> profetA/profetESSA. it's more like everything is irregular and you just memorize it.

@Varden: Thank you for your suggestion. Who knows, maybe v1.26a would just focus on that one. :D
I don't really know when i'll work on it though, it's more likely that i'll take a little break now with gs modding and focus on other hobbies at least for the coming week, unless something urgent pops up


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Daddy Poi's Oily Gorillas on 22, November, 2015, 10:14:23 AM
Has there even been a single open-source version of OpenGS yet (i.e. as a demo.) If not, then it could be interesting to do something like that ourselves. (From square one.) I mean, I doubt I'm afraid of having people end up with a number of different versions if it means getting into the programming business much faster. (Whether I do end up doing it is yet to be decided.... but I'd probably end up with tiny demos or something(?))
There's a GitHub ( https://github.com/opengoldensun ) , but nothing seems to be on it?

@Italian: Maybe, but don't forget that I think Spanish has irregulars as well....
http://www.123teachme.com/learn_spanish/grammar_5 = But anyway, here are some nouns where the ending imply opposite gender... (I think this is always tthe case, though?: el = singular masuline "the" / la=singular feminine "the" / los/las are the plural ones)


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 23, November, 2015, 04:21:07 PM
well italian and spanish are pretty similar and it's usually easy for speakers of one to learn the other... difficulties arise when you're a native english speaker... people tend to get scared learning that they're going from 2/3 words per verb (all modes) to more than 40, to say one.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Daddy Poi's Oily Gorillas on 23, November, 2015, 04:53:34 PM
:D
Cool. Although... I always thought Portuguese was the most similar to Spanish. (With maybe different pronunciations.) Similar, but definitely not the same.
But anyway, you say Italian is similiar... I think French is also similar as well.. (But I know very little about French aside from a few things... like le and la are for "the"... and the word "no" means the same in English, Spanish, and French. Etc.)

German... is a bit weird... since even though it has many different the's... none of them look like el/le/la.... They all start with a d for one...

Copy-pasted:

Masculine Neuter Feminine Plural
Nominative: der das die die
Accusative: den das die die
Dative: dem dem der den
Genitive: des des der der


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: javi3 on 24, November, 2015, 02:11:25 PM
You not if I understand correctly , want to put this patch in multiple languages?
It is that my English is not very good ...


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 24, November, 2015, 02:26:44 PM
i already answered you on this before, this mod will always be available only in english. With the sole, obvious exception of italian, if somebody happens to ask for it.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: javi3 on 24, November, 2015, 07:13:01 PM
then you can put this patch in Italian? It would be great to have him in that language!


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 24, November, 2015, 08:11:24 PM
The rar is in the attachment. It contains IPS patches for the Italian versions of GS and TLA.
2 things to note. While GS is ready to go right after being patched, after you patch the TLA rom you MUST:

1) rename the ROM to "Golden Sun - L'Era Perduta.gba"
2) put it into the gstlatoolkit folder
3) run the batch file "go_TLA.bat"

This is because i used gstlatoolkit for text editing, which expanded the rom to 24mb, while ips patches can handle files only up to 16mb. hence the additional patch.

The second thing to note is that a lot of text, names etc were edited to suit my personal tastes. While I won't listen to any complain to this, you have all the tools you need to tweak every line of text by yourself, for both roms. Just open either gs_script or tla_script, edit as you see fit, and then patch again (the rom must be inside the folder) by running the corresponding batch file (go_GS or go_TLA). The default names for the rom are "Golden Sun.gba" and the aforementioned "Golden Sun - L'Era Perduta.gba", but those names can be changed by editing the "go" batches (if you don't know what this means just stick to the default names and you'll be fine).


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: javi3 on 25, November, 2015, 12:27:07 PM
very very thanks caledor!  :happy:


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 29, November, 2015, 02:46:42 AM
EDIT: Clean ROM patching worked. For anyone else who had this problem, this is the answer. Yeah, Cal, I know you said clean ROMs every time, but, ok.

Alright, I have a question.

I was using the editor after patching to 1.26 and I noticed that a very good chunk of the enemy list had names that looked like:

"[16][3]hed oulllllle[3]lllllllllllod oullllllloulllllid oullll oullllllly y oulllllllaie[3]he[3]hed ofoullllllly.[2]Goulllllll oknulll ounullllllly Whe[3]he[3]houlll.............[2]Goulllllllllicrid oulll...[2]"

for the Young Isaac spot (which is 0 on the list) or

"Ahe[3]httttttou[3]he[3]he[3]hesuttttt ounullllllisttttt'lllllll oullllllllllllllllllevw oulll.....[2]Goulid Whtttttowe[3]he[3]he[3]jid Favw oullllllllliap oulllllid Whe[3]he[3]caid oullllle tttttt.......... ounullllllllllllly ap oullllitrid ofou'snulllllllld Whe[3]he[3]Djoullllllllllllle[3]he[3]hem y oullllllloullll.....................[2]Goullllllo[3]he[3]he[3]he[3]he[3]he[3]he[3]he[3]he[3]he[3]h..[2]Goulllllltennuly oc"

for one of the Djinn. I can't really tell what to do about it, but I'll try a clean rom and edit this post.



Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 29, November, 2015, 11:13:49 AM
Which version are you talking about? I just tried with both clean USA and EU rom and it worked.
BTW this happens when the text section differs from the one i based my patch on (even a single byte is enough to mess the whole thing up). So it's either a non clean rom or another one that is somehow different from mine.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: JamietheFlameUser on 29, November, 2015, 06:57:40 PM
Did you read the edit at the top of his post?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 29, November, 2015, 07:01:23 PM
I did. I couldn't tell if the question was (chronologically) before or after the edit


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 02, December, 2015, 09:39:09 AM
Quote
the focal points of the new icons are above the skull and E icons (signifying cursed and equipped)
I was pondering over this and I thought: "what if i rotate long swords and maces to make them point to NE like other weapons?". What do you guys think? You'd like to see it or you don't particularly care (eg. it's not worth the effort)?

Also... I just remembered that i still have to make the mountain water icon so i guess 1.27 is on the way (and caladbolg will be slightly tweaked)


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: rooky711 on 02, December, 2015, 01:12:41 PM
Quick question Calendar. I noticed the djinni Gust rarely hits twice when used with your mod. Is this an intended choice? My personal preference is to make the double hit more common, because a single hit ends up being just as weak as a regular attack. Other than that, I have fought my way all the way till beating Satires at the Mercury lighthouse on GS1, and I have to say, you have done an outstanding job balancing everything out. The battles are challenging but fun and do-able. And I love I have to think through my moves because everything is quite balanced. Keep up the great work!


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 02, December, 2015, 02:32:46 PM
first and foremost, thanks for the praise. I hope you'll enjoy the rest of your playthrough as well.
Regarding Gust, i don't remember touching its activation chance so it should be the same as vanilla.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 03, December, 2015, 01:47:33 AM
Rotating swords and @#$% is finally crossing into nitpicking territory. It may be something you'd like to do on your particular version, but considering it's not something very easily changed back, there's no need to put it into these patches.

You did damn well with this thing. This thread has almost 26000 views. I get the feeling that it's pretty much finalized, unless you feel like your need to number tweak things to try and get a specific experience.

For example, Apes in TBS have a ton more hp than most other enemies in areas they are encountered. Are you looking for similar "tanky" enemies in TLA?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 03, December, 2015, 07:38:37 AM
Rotating: Actually it's not my highest priority to say the least... but i thought i could ask and see if someone wanted it.

Finalized: I think so too. Everything i still want to do is related to statuses but i don't know where the values i need to edit are... oh, and thanks :D

TBS/TLA: I didn't notice this particular thing for apes... but if there's a thing in enemies that bothers me is how TBS is harder than TLA, especially earlier in the game. Hope that the -1 starting level helped in TLA... cause i'm afraid to do more since it'd make sheba's fragility even more noticeable (and could border on being annoying).

EDIT: new icons
(http://i.imgur.com/qgYTTqx.gif) Mountain Water pink version, closer to current style
(http://i.imgur.com/XnXKD7T.gif) Mountain Water blue version, DD style
(http://i.imgur.com/TnQA8N5.gif) Caladbolg

Which MW do you guys like the most?

For the Caladbolg, I just removed the light blue and grey dots on the bottom left corner. Also made the sparkles fully fit within the frame. Lol it kinda resembles the Buster Sword now.

(http://i.imgur.com/heTUubf.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/S1gSLUi.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/fCS7GOy.png)


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 03, December, 2015, 01:26:22 PM
Not bad.  What'd you use for the base of the Caladbolg?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 03, December, 2015, 01:32:49 PM
The Caladbolg has ben using the masamune icon from gs1 since the day i added the weapon to TLA ((http://goldensunwiki.net/w/images/8/80/Kusanagi.gif)).
It's just a very minor tweak. Didn't like the azure and grey dots in the SW corner.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Salanewt on 03, December, 2015, 11:11:48 PM
Finalized: I think so too. Everything i still want to do is related to statuses but i don't know where the values i need to edit are... oh, and thanks :D

Mind if I ask for clarification on what you want to do for this?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 03, December, 2015, 11:41:31 PM
Finalized: I think so too. Everything i still want to do is related to statuses but i don't know where the values i need to edit are... oh, and thanks :D

Mind if I ask for clarification on what you want to do for this?

you're referring to the "i want but i don't know how"? if so those are still the same things i mentioned over and over... tweak haunt activation rate/damage, bring death curse 4 turns to GS1 and if possible tweak delusion as well. There may be others but those are the most important


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 04, December, 2015, 12:41:21 AM
BTW, the level drop thing, big time pain only when fighting Djinn. Not really noticeable in scenarios other than that if Breath is used very often. That's mostly because I'm working hard to stay vigilant about health and PP. But getting Fog and Breath is a matter of dumb luck because they will either 2 or 3 shot either Jenna or Sheba and you can't heal all 3 people at once without sacrificing a turn to not attacking. Djinn AoE and power at that point in the game is ridiculous. Take Flash Bolt off of Breath; the battle is literally "Pray it doesn't use Flash Bolt twice in a row, because you'll lose at least one person, unless you use everyone to heal, in which case you're just delaying the inevitable." By the time you get to Cannon, it's manageable because one weak AoE ability doesn't reduce the entire team to below half HP. 

On the Ape thing, since it's something I think I mentioned forever ago, I wrote up some of the enemy HP values from a few dungeons in TBS vanilla. There are a couple scenarios where the devs made some enemies "sticky" or able to survive the first turn if they aren't focused.

Kolima Forest: Drone Bee: 63 HP; Rat: 49 HP; Rat Soldier: 69 HP; Skeleton: 60 HP; Troll: 101 HP; Head: 54 HP.

In this instance, the Troll is "sticky."

Apes, specifically, becomes a big deal in Altin Peak, whose bestiary looks like this:

Ape: 290 HP; Bone Fighter: 122 HP; Calamar: 104 HP; Dirge: 91 HP; Rat Fighter: 143 HP; Slime Beast: 99 HP; Tarantula: 108 HP.

So...yeah. There are a couple scenarios in TLA where you would think that a bigger, tankier but not necessarily with much higher attack enemy would fight in. The Turtle Dragons in the first part of Treasure Island only have 40 more HP than Earth Golems. Or in Air's Rock, where the two enemies that show up once you get inside...have only 7 and 15 more HP than Emus.

So, yeah. TBS is harder because you had to work to get rid of some enemies. The only "Apes" in TLA is stuff like the Demon series, who will reduce your HP to 1 just because and are strong and normally paired with other enemies.

        

 


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Salanewt on 04, December, 2015, 12:42:27 AM
Right right, I couldn't quite remember. Only been checking in here every now and then. Was the curse to 4 turns the only GS1-specific thing (and the others for both games), or are they all for GS1? I think know where the Haunt activation is in GS2, but I can't remember for sure if I also know how to tweak damage with it. And I would also have to hunt for it in GS1.

The Curse turn thing should be super easy for me to find though; I can check it out for you later if you'd like.

Also, I'd hate to ask if you have already answered this question, but what did you want to do with delusion again? I can't remember if you just wanted to change activation/accuracy rates with it, or if there was something more you wanted.



Varden: Interesting... not really related to Caledor's hack, but you gave me some ideas. Thanks!


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 04, December, 2015, 01:06:08 AM
Hmm, interesting.  A neat approach, I think - it's usually closely related to Excalibur since it's King Arthur's other sword.  Nice to see you took a different approach than an Excalibur edit~


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 04, December, 2015, 08:07:31 AM
@Varden:
Tanky enemies: that's nice. I can see only improvements in doing this, so i think i'll look for viable enemies and give them a slight boost to their HP.
Djinn: Guess i'll check all the djinn once again. Breath shouldn't even have flash bolt judging by the other djinn close to its level.

@Squirtle
The 4 turn curse is the only GS1 specific, while the others are for both games. This is cause there's a patch in the download section that makes the curse last 4 turn for TLA.

As for delusion and haunt... i don't even have all the info about them and that is something i'll need before i start tweaking them. For example... how do they work?
IIRC haunt triggers when the pg affected deals damage and has a 25% chance to deal 25% of the damage dealt to the pg itself. Is this correct? Also... How does it work when the pg in question casts multi target psy? The damage taken is still the same (1 attack = 1 trigger) or it triggers separately for each hit?
About delusion... all i know is that it gives the pg affected a chance to miss when using the attack command. So... what is its activation rate? how does it work with unleashes and crits? Because if delusion works with unleashes and crits as well, it all comes down to find a suitable activation rate. If it does not... it's the stupidest status ever and a lost cause.

And thanks for the help as always. I'm really really grateful. :)


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Salanewt on 04, December, 2015, 10:12:49 PM
I had stuff typed out and accidentally closed the tab, so:

4-turn: I imagine it's similar in GS1, but there isn't a lot of GS1 stuff recorded in the document. Should only be a byte if it works the same as in GS2.

Haunt: Wasn't it 1/8 chance of activation? May be mistaken on that, but the equipment curse is 1/4 for sure. Also don't know about multi-target, but if I had to guess that one may be based on damage dealt to the primary target; I can test it when my essays and stuff are done, which should be within a week. Doesn't look like the documentation has a lot on it though, but I may have an idea of where it is based on other things that are recorded.

Delusion: I think certain attack types (mostly standard attack) have a flat chance to miss, which is increased if the attacker has delusion. I think it goes up to 33% of the time from something like 10%? The checks are/may be separate for both PCs and enemies, can't remember for sure. I also want to say it has priority over unleashes and critical hits, but it may just have priority over crits. I discussed it on Skype with leaf before, I just wish I could remember exactly what the order is so I could tell you what I found out. Here's some code anyway; I think critical hits come last, meaning that it is either delusion or unleash first:

Quote
080B04BC = unleash_check(pc) Returns ability to cast. (Unleash if chance succeeds, or attack.)

...

08123C08 = Attack (x00)
08123C4A = [18][1]'s [20][1][3]lets out a howl! ; [21]!

...

08124376 = ? (x0A-x62)
081243F4 = [18][1] attacks!
  08124406 = Delusion check
  08124454 = Sleep check
  08124460 = Stun check
  0812446C = Temporary stun check
  08124478 = Charm check
081244B4 = Critical hit rates, including use of Crit+ bonuses
081244E4 = Ability used. (Not attack.) ; Includes effect check chances with the multipliers x1.5, x2, and x3.
08124696 = ? = Calculate_Ailment_Success (Boolean)
0812472E = Load Ability Type Value (Not Damage Type, but Sequence/Animation Type.) from table.
0812473E = Call 081224C0. (True for Psy Drain & abilities with PP Cost not 0.)
081247F8 = End


The first line is basically the location for the unleash code (and is what I changed to make a multi-target unleash patch), while the second two segments are a part of the same broader function, but aren't exactly the same thing. Um, hard to explain right now when I should be getting back to work; I can do so later if you want. I mostly posted the code in case you want to take a peak yourself, but otherwise I still intend to double check when my schedule frees up a bit more.


Edit: So I asked leaf about it, and he couldn't quite remember either. We seem to agree that it's likely unleash -> delusion/miss -> critical hit because unleashes happen before the PC actually initiates the attack, but I will have to double check later. It does make sense though, since it would be weird to have "Felix' Sol Blade lets out a howl!" be followed up by "Vermin nimbly dodged the Megiddo!". It's also one of the few/only ailments that is better when used by the player rather than by the enemy, as enemies tend to have fewer alternatives for dealing damage than player characters.

I imagine you may be able to restructure the code so the unleash check comes afterward if you want. Either that or you would have to keep unleash rates low enough where it wouldn't be noticeable.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 05, December, 2015, 03:03:43 PM
4-turn: yup i thought so as well but i wasn't able to find that byte the first time i tried. guess i'll try again when i have time.

Haunt: I don't really know. I thought I read those numbers somewhere here so you shouldn't trust them too much.

Delusion: So unleashing nullifies the delusion? if so, yes i'll have to restructure the whole thing. I hope that i'll be able to figure out how the attack command works. after that it should be pretty easy to rearrange the checks for delusion and unleash. the addresses you posted are going to be a great help, thanks. BTW 33% is ridiculously low anyway and it will be raised.

Equipment curse: only a 25% chance to paralyze? another value to raise.

Also, since i fear that this is going to take a while i released v1.27 with the new icons only.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Salanewt on 05, December, 2015, 05:45:20 PM
4-turn: Sounds good. I can still take a look later if you can't find it, but what might help is if you use vba-sdl-h and do a bpw (breakpoint on write) shortly before a PC gets inflicted with curse. The RAM code for PCs in GS2 is pretty early in the 02000000 section, probably around 02000500 for Isaac. The ailment values should be organized near the end, shortly before the data for the next PC begins (with their name).

Haunt: In all honesty, I can't remember what it is anyway. Plan to look though, since I have plans for buffing it myself.

Delusion: More like it's a yes/no step for whether it should unleash or not. If it unleashes, then it doesn't even bother with the normal attack (where the delusion stuff is). I think. Keep in mind that I still need to double check to be sure, but we both seem to remember it being something like this.

Equipment curse: Pretty sure, yeah. The below line is for GS2, not sure about GS1 but you could probably do a bpr (breakpoint on read) before a character's turn to find it. The value for the ailment should be pretty close to normal curse, so that's nice. Otherwise, I can check it out for you later.

Quote
08123990 = Curse check (1/4 chance of not being able to move; 16-bit RNG AND x03)

Uses an AND instruction, so it depends on how you want to change it. I personally think that 1/4 isn't that bad though, unless you really want to buff cursed gear or something.


Quote
And thanks for the help as always. I'm really really grateful. :)

Happy to help!


Edit: For the 4-turn stuff, GS1 PC RAM is also in the same general vicinity (if not the exact same location as GS2).


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Daddy Poi's Oily Gorillas on 05, December, 2015, 06:20:45 PM
Quote
Edit: For the 4-turn stuff, GS1 PC RAM is also in the same general vicinity (if not the exact same location as GS2).
Almost.

02000500 = GS1's PC RAM data....
02000520 = GS2's PC RAM data....

Only 0x20 bytes off. (Probably because GS2 added some stuff to what comes before this?)
 And the last bit after Piers data... I think most of that is probably unused bytes (up to 0x02000FFF), which further shows that more room could have still be added.... - 0x02001000 is known to be used for something in both games.

----
@ And 0x3: Not much of a problem if you increase 3 to 0x7, 0xF, or whatever, an compare the resulting number with a number larger than 0, and have a condition jump that is of an inequality. (So not beq/bne)... I think?



EDIT: Curse duration is at 080BD21E: (It's 0x07.)


Meanwhile, I record a little more stuff in my GS1 document.... It's going to be too much work to transfer everything, so I'll just do a little bit at a time when I feel like it?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 06, December, 2015, 09:48:11 AM
thanks guys. these days i'm quite busy, but as soon as i have some free time i'll try to make good use of your suggestions.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: leaf on 07, December, 2015, 05:49:22 AM
Quote
Haunt: Wasn't it 1/8 chance of activation?
1/4 chance to take 1/4 of the damage you dealt that turn.

Quote
I think it goes up to 33% of the time from something like 10%?
I'm pretty sure the base chance of missing was either 1/16 or 1/64. I don't remember which, but I'm leaning toward the latter. And I thought it went to an ~80% chance to hit while under delusion, but I could be completely wrong on that.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Daddy Poi's Oily Gorillas on 07, December, 2015, 05:57:54 AM
@Delusion:  Remember this? From the Elemental Weapons (http://forum.goldensunhacking.net/index.php?topic=2448.0) topic?
Quote
@Attack:
If you have delusion, this check is made: If rand(0,255) <= 152, you'll miss. (aka: Multiplier thingy set to 0)
There is another check made regardless: 1/32 chance of missing.
I should probably double check the code, though.... Since it has been awhile. Unfortunately, I didn't list the code location in the topic, but it should be pretty obvious anyway...


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: leaf on 07, December, 2015, 11:00:14 AM
Well, I knew it was between 1/16 and 1/64... right? =p

152/255... so it's a 60% chance to hit miss during delusion.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 07, December, 2015, 11:34:44 AM
@Delusion:  Remember this? From the Elemental Weapons (http://forum.goldensunhacking.net/index.php?topic=2448.0) topic?
Quote
@Attack:
If you have delusion, this check is made: If rand(0,255) <= 152, you'll miss. (aka: Multiplier thingy set to 0)
There is another check made regardless: 1/32 chance of missing.
I should probably double check the code, though.... Since it has been awhile. Unfortunately, I didn't list the code location in the topic, but it should be pretty obvious anyway...

Quote
Well, I knew it was between 1/16 and 1/64... right? =p

152/255... so it's a 60% chance to hit during delusion.

Wait, with those numbers isn't it a 60% chance to MISS?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: leaf on 07, December, 2015, 02:20:27 PM
Yeah, you're right. It's a 60% chance to miss. I misread.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Salanewt on 08, December, 2015, 05:52:18 PM
Aah, okay, thanks for clearing that ailment stuff up! I always seem to forget minor details like that.

So for a recap on what you want to change:

4-turn: Fox found that for you.
Delusion: You want to make it more effective and also give it priority over unleash, right?
Haunt: Activation rate.
Equipment curse: Ditto.

Does this sound right?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 08, December, 2015, 08:17:31 PM
Yes, that pretty much sums it up. Just maybe with haunt also tweaking damage... but i'll know for sure only when i'll make the tests since it comes down to balancing it.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Salanewt on 08, December, 2015, 09:37:58 PM
Sounds good. I have a feeling I will end up checking tonight, but I can't promise anything. Mostly because I'm on my last (and pretty short) paper, so I will either finish that today or be too tired and finish it tomorrow.

Can you think of anything else you'd like me to check?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 08, December, 2015, 09:49:12 PM
ATM nothing comes to mind. And thanks pal, but please remember that there's no need at all to hurry... cause i don't know myself when i'll be able to check those values and try making the changes... i've got exams coming up too. ;)

Well... at worst it's gonna be during the holidays.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 09, December, 2015, 05:35:58 PM
Off chance you can give delusion priority over attack spells as well?  I mean, even with that, delusion would mean I just switch to spamming Odyssey.  If delusion could make it so spells no longer guarantee a hit, that'd be significant.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 09, December, 2015, 07:25:15 PM
I don't think I will.
The reason is that such a change will make an entirely different status and a very high priority one to heal. This implies rebalancing in terms of psy, pp cost, class availability, enemy availability, status immunity and many more. We already have high priority heal statuses in sleep, stun and death curse, poison will stay at low priority, and Haunt will be moved to mid. Delusion will be the low priority status for mages and high for physical attackers. And the foil to Seal, which is high priority heal for mages and low for warriors.

Remember that psynergies like odyssey are often not even comparable to unleashes. They deal around 40% to 55% of damage and they deplete the already low PP pool of warriors. It's like saying that a sealed fateweaver (main offense: Scourge at BP 240) can just switch to attacking with the hope of unleashing Lachesis (35% base chance, often 40% due to Berserk Tiara, at BP 270).

BTW, I'm not even sure i'd be able to do it... since there's no line in the game for psynergy that "misses". Basically I'd have to code it from scratch.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 09, December, 2015, 10:55:09 PM
Ah - you see, that's exactly why I'd do it.  Essentially, it makes it just as big of a threat as other ailments.  As it stands, you can safely ignore it.  And I figured it'd involve changes to how psynergy was handled, but at the same time I figured it could easily be done by using physical attacks a basis for the change.

And yeah, I remember how things work.  I also know that things work different in practice than on paper.  Though... poison is low priority heal?  What, did you nerf it?  Or do you and I prioritize that one different?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 09, December, 2015, 11:01:24 PM
Poison is the same as vanilla. You think it's a threat? Cause I usually heal it once the battle is over.
BTW, yes as delusion is now it's lowest priority period cause the point of unleashing is that the you miss it the ~200 damage of the attack is a fluke all the same. I think that just making it affect unleashes is a huge step forward


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Salanewt on 10, December, 2015, 06:31:28 AM
Okay, some stuff.

GS2 (haven't checked GS1 yet, I will likely check it out later along with equipment curse).
#08122482 = Haunt Check (for if you have it)
#0812248C = Haunt Activation Check (RNG AND x03, so by default it is indeed a 1/4 chance to activate; uses an LSR instruction to calculate damage)

Also, Haunt will not activate if you win the battle, and it only deals 1/4 of the damage you deal to your primary target. There is another condition of some sort that comes before the actual damage calculation, but I don't know what it is. Probably doesn't matter a whole lot, but you never know.

#081239A8 = Equipment Curse Activation Check (same calculation as Haunt)


As for Delusion, I can confirm what Fox said about both the calculation (located precisely at #08124410 for missing with delusion) and the fact that there is a 1/32 check regardless, but it seems weird that there is no branch between them? No idea why unless it happens to be frame perfect, but I'm pretty doubtful about that.

Oh, and unleashes do in fact come first. That is referenced with a function call located at #08124398 with no conditional branches beforehand that can bypass the call, so... you may have some restructuring to do if you want delusion to even work on unleashes.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: leaf on 10, December, 2015, 07:10:00 AM
Do bear in mind that there isn't actually any good way to *cure* haunt right now, unless you changed it. It's an extremely debilitating status as is, and the only reason why I don't usually heal it is because restore doesn't do anything to it, afaik. It was either that or the stuff that inflicts it just constantly re-inflicts the status (making curing it pointless), but I'm pretty sure it actually can't be cured outside of specific things.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Salanewt on 10, December, 2015, 08:23:54 AM
I think you basically have djinn, sanctums, and death. I definitely agree with leaf as far as haunt goes though; activation rate would be a coin flip between its current 1/4 and a 1/3 (or even 1/5) rate for me, but it is definitely one of the better ailments in the series that is only really harmed by its low infliction rate.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 10, December, 2015, 10:43:53 AM
@Healing Haunt: OFC i'll keep that in mind when deciding on the values. BTW, I've already considered the option of creating a single target Salt-like psynergy.

@Squirtle: Thank you very much for the addresses. As for Delusion, i think i'll manage somehow. ;)
About the other things to check, i just remembered two: if a mars revive animation exists/can be ported to GS1, and the basic rates for healing from ailments at each turn. Basically those (from gs2codedatalist):

Code:
Attack = 30%
Defense = 20%
Resistance = 20%
Delusion = 30%
Confuse = 60%
Charm = 70%
Stun = 20%
Sleep = 50%
Psy-seal = 30%

I was wondering why stun and sleep are basically identical but have different healing rates. Also it's confusing me cause the wiki (http://goldensunwiki.net/wiki/List_of_Status_Conditions) states that Stun heals faster than Sleep, but from the numbers here looks like it's the opposite.

PS. 4 turn curse is in GS1 and will be found in the next release. Thanks Fox!


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Salanewt on 10, December, 2015, 04:14:18 PM
The wiki is wrong on this one, since this stuff isn't really known about in detail aside from around these parts. It certainly wouldn't be the first time at any rate.

Healing Haunt: As long as it isn't an early-game ability and/or in an easily accessible class. Otherwise you run the risk of having it outshine pretty much every other healing ability when you get it.


Edit: Also, happy to help!


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 10, December, 2015, 05:27:48 PM
Healing Haunt: As long as it isn't an early-game ability and/or in an easily accessible class. Otherwise you run the risk of having it outshine pretty much every other healing ability when you get it.
Yup, that's pretty much what i had in mind. The most likely scenario is that only dedicated healers will have it (Angel, Pure Mage and Guardian), and will replace both cure poison and restore at higher tiers, like Ragnarok -> Odissey


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Daddy Poi's Oily Gorillas on 10, December, 2015, 06:23:34 PM
Quote
I was wondering why stun and sleep are basically identical but have different healing rates. Also it's confusing me cause the wiki states that Stun heals faster than Sleep, but from the numbers here looks like it's the opposite.
Same healing rates in GS1 as well... when I checked the other day. (Yes, that was when I documented those functions in GS1 Doc.)
@GS2: Sleep and Stun are also for 7 turns each.... so they were wrong there, also. (I wonder if we're missing anything?)


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Salanewt on 11, December, 2015, 01:26:54 AM
Caledor: Awesome, I look forward to seeing how that turns out.

Fox: Debug room stuff may be wrong and/or missing info. Also, the description for Magnet on the page for unavailable spells (which lists Aurora Field as one); while the Lash rope reaction does happen in , I recall it also happening with Frost and stuff (also, it completely leaves out the fact that the real layout for Psynergy Test 2 is actually unused because it copies the layout of Psynergy Test). For the most part, anything involving lesser known things that we find probably won't be on there... this may be off topic though.

As for the turns/duration, they probably meant the average & the likelihood of one being cured over the other. I'd be willing to bet they were even swapped by accident when that info was originally written, although the fact that it has gone uncorrected for so long isn't a good sign.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 11, December, 2015, 07:19:36 PM
@Poison:  Taking 50-120 damage every turn is something I'd consider a threat, yes.  It may not seem like much, but in combination with other damage you take, and with GS' very AoE heavy gameplay, that stuff adds up.  Before you get wish, poison is freaking scary.  It's the reason I keep a couple antidotes on each adept.

@Haunt:  I'll have to disagree with you on this one, leaf.  Haunt is a tricky one because depending on who got hit with it, it may not matter at all.  I'd say this is a mid-tier threat in vanilla, mainly because if Ivan or Mia get pegged by it, why should I care?  It doesn't damage you for heals or buffs, just for damage output.  Any character who's job is to do something else can completely ignore it.  On top of that, the damage you take from attacks is usually really small until the end game, when you should already have the djinn needed to cure it.  I consider it the same level of threat as vanilla Death Curse.  Higher activation rate or damage recoil would make it a bigger threat to the adepts who care, I think.

@Sleep and Stun:  What are the other modifiers between these two?  I mean, what separates them?  Is it just that sleep has more chances to cure itself?  I mean, they can't just be clones of one another... can they?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Daddy Poi's Oily Gorillas on 11, December, 2015, 09:54:54 PM
Quote
@Sleep and Stun:  What are the other modifiers between these two?  I mean, what separates them?  Is it just that sleep has more chances to cure itself?  I mean, they can't just be clones of one another... can they?
I dunno? Does a person who is hit when they're sleeping increase their chance of waking up? If so, would it be in-general? Or limited to certain things like Physical or Magical? (Probably should see if I can find anything in the code later?)


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Salanewt on 11, December, 2015, 11:00:50 PM
I can see poison being low-mid priority, but venom is certainly higher. Plus they can stack to 30% of your health for every action you take... assuming there is ever a situation when they could be stacked together without being cured right away.

Sleep/stun: If I had to guess, the two may be mostly identical with the aim of making stun a direct upgrade over sleep; assuming you can even get it to work in the first place. One is easier to inflict but also easier to recover from, while one is the opposite. And then you have the 1-turn stun which is a separate ailment that does the same thing (but guaranteed to work I think). There may be more to them than that, but I honestly doubt it given that there are three four separate paralysis effects when you also factor cursed gear into it. This is excluding confuse & charm of course, since those are merely unfinished effects that only do anything to player characters by default.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: leaf on 11, December, 2015, 11:56:45 PM
@Haunt:  I'll have to disagree with you on this one, leaf.  Haunt is a tricky one because depending on who got hit with it, it may not matter at all.  I'd say this is a mid-tier threat in vanilla, mainly because if Ivan or Mia get pegged by it, why should I care?  It doesn't damage you for heals or buffs, just for damage output.  Any character who's job is to do something else can completely ignore it.  On top of that, the damage you take from attacks is usually really small until the end game, when you should already have the djinn needed to cure it.  I consider it the same level of threat as vanilla Death Curse.  Higher activation rate or damage recoil would make it a bigger threat to the adepts who care, I think.
You're thinking about boss fights. In which case, raising the chance of return damage *still* doesn't change that dynamic. It just makes it even *more* punishing for your attackers, while the healer and buffer can safely ignore it.

Now, to put this in the correct context, haunt is a lasting ailment, that is carried over from battle to battle. And until later in the game, the only way to cure it is to visit a sanctum. So thinking about it purely in terms of boss fights isn't quite accurate. Here, even your supports are going to be attacking fairly frequently, and inflicting pretty hefty damage amounts, too. And don't think your mages are safe just because they cast psynergy; haunt can trigger on *each* hit of an AOE.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 12, December, 2015, 12:12:14 AM
@Leaf:  The damage is easily healed out of battle, and with the PP regen out of battle, in most situations it can be safely ignored until you get around to curing it.  If not making it more severe, I think a good way to look at it is to look at support spells and healing as well, and have it deal damage based on the values given on those.  Definitely not an easy thing to quantify though, since different people weight it differently.

@Poison/Venom:  THOSE CAN STACK!?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 12, December, 2015, 01:48:00 AM
Progress report for next version:

4 turn curse added to gs1
(http://i.imgur.com/Qvcka8l.gif) Remedy psynergy created (single target Tonic, 10 pp cost). Is learned at Angel and Druid stage, and by the Pure Mage and Guardian series. Always replaces both Cure Poison and Restore. In TLA the icon replaces the red X.
Break cost increased to 12
Restore cost increased to 6
Potent cure cost increased to 14
Nature boon cost increased to 18, bp decreased to 500
Ply series cost increased to 5-10-24, pure ply bp decreased to 700

Sticky enemies:
   wild gorilla's hp +50
   turtle dragon hp +20

@Varden: This is just the beginning. A few clarifications:  I don't think i will tweak the stats of enemies shared between games (cause it could become a pain for me to fix mistakes in the future), but i'm open for replacements. For example, Wild gorilla and Turtle dragon are TLA exclusive so they can be tweaked. Creeper, as you noted is plain stupid in the air rock interior, but is shared with TBS so i think i'll outright replace it with another enemy. Your suggestions were spot on so far, so if you have other ideas about this do not hesitate and let me know! :D
PS. I just checked all the TLA exclusive enemies and i don't see other enemies that could have their hp improved... so all that's left is to replace enemies like creeper in air's rock.

Next:
Haunt activation chance to 40%, curse freeze chance to 50% 33%, the delusion thing (i think i'll go for: if deluded skip unleash check) + standard attack miss chance to 70%, check infliction rate of tweaked statuses, AOB.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Salanewt on 12, December, 2015, 02:34:15 AM
Haunt: Actually, I'm pretty sure it only triggers once per action regardless of whether you hit multiple targets or not. I tested to make sure by raising the activation rate to 100% and hitting multiple targets with Douse, although I can always go back and triple check just to make sure.

Posion/Venom: I thought they did, but they may not after double checking in RAM; I changed the poison value to 3 and there's no graphic to indicate a condition. In theory though (and certainly in practice with a little work), you can totally make them stack because all the poison ailment does is check for the current value and use that to calculate damage. So like, poison = 1 and venom = 2: poison deals 10% in battle and venom deals 20%. Higher values also work in battle, they just don't have any graphics or icons to indicate that they are in effect. So in theory, one could code in an exception for both ability effects that just adds their value to the current poison level and fix the graphics, and then they could have stacking poison. Oh, and also code its functionality out of battle, but that one may be a little easier.


Caledor:
Remedy: Sounds good. What is its PP cost?

Equipment curse: You sure about that one? Cursed equipment may be really good in your hack, but still...




Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 12, December, 2015, 11:29:14 AM
Remedy is 10. For reference, CP is 3 and restore 6.
Eq. curse. Hmm yes, guess 50% is way too much. But 25% is definitely low so I'll settle for 33%.

Quote
In TLA the icon replaces the red X.
In TBS too.

EDIT: just wanted to say that i've found all the remaining addresses (GS1) for equipment curse, haunt and delusion activation chance. Thanks guys!

EDIT2: I think i've also figured out how to deal with the delusion/unleash thing.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Salanewt on 12, December, 2015, 04:38:34 PM
Equipment curse: That is the absolute highest I would go for, although I would also be open to reducing the rate slightly depending on how cursed gear is balanced. I think it might work out okay.

Delusion: Yeah?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 12, December, 2015, 04:56:01 PM
In TLA:

(http://i.imgur.com/M2zXphH.png)

You branch to this part of the code from the unleash function, at 080B04BE. It loads a single byte from r0 (acting pc in ram) + #0x138, which is delusion turns. If said value is greater than 0 (pc under delusion), jump to the end of the unleash function (you can't unleash if deluded). If not, continue as normal (the "mov r2, #0x2a" instruction was the one replaced to jump here). It seems to work. The only doubt is whether R1 is used or not (r2 is fine due to the mov r2, #0x2a instruction)


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: leaf on 12, December, 2015, 09:38:16 PM
@Leaf:  The damage is easily healed out of battle, and with the PP regen out of battle, in most situations it can be safely ignored until you get around to curing it.  If not making it more severe, I think a good way to look at it is to look at support spells and healing as well, and have it deal damage based on the values given on those.  Definitely not an easy thing to quantify though, since different people weight it differently.
Eh... you sure you aren't thinking of DD regen? If you're having to heal between every or every other battle, you're gonna have a steady drain on your PP. After all, there's still the damage you're taking from the enemies themselves. Haunt doesn't exist in a vacuum; if it did, it wouldn't be a threat.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Salanewt on 12, December, 2015, 10:07:04 PM
Just to add to the PP field recovery bit: It doesn't work in towns and the counter for it resets every time you enter/exit a room. So if you're in a dungeon with a lot of small rooms, chances are you will recover less PP than you would on the overworld for example. The counter is also the same one used for djinn recovery, to add a little tidbit.

Caledor: I think I like it. My preference is for unleashes to ignore delusion, but considering we have different balance ideas in some areas (i.e. universal magic power vs. elemental power) I think your solution is pretty good. Nice work!


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 13, December, 2015, 12:27:01 AM
Puzzle rooms have no encounters, but PP recovery works there.  If you have to, running in circles could easily do the job.

Man, this little discussion's been kind of enlightening - different people have very different outlooks on the severity of ailments.  Kinda want to make a thread on this to get everyone to give their opinions on all of GS' ailments and what they'd prefer them to do...


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Salanewt on 13, December, 2015, 11:51:13 PM
Puzzle rooms: That's a good point actually. Means it is up to the player to know in advance which rooms are puzzle rooms, but there are some (like the Madra mayor/oasis desert room in Yampi) that are pretty obvious. Although not all puzzles rooms are encounter-free either (like the Growth maze in Gaia Rock). I guess this means that Avoid does have some practical use after all!

Edit: I forgot to mention this before, but I'm pretty sure the counter also resets upon entering a battle. May as well mention that too.

Also, I'd totally be on board with that topic idea. I would consider doing it myself, but I'm technically studying and am only on for a short break right now. I think there have been similar topics for one-off ailments; I don't know about a universal one though.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 14, December, 2015, 02:02:28 AM
Ok so Haunt and Delusion are done. In the end i left the equipment curse at 25% since there's never been an issue with that. All that's left to do are the sticky enemies that Varden suggested, TLA wise.

About GS1... Squirtle, sorry to bother you again but i've got two things to ask you: if you know if a mars revive animation exists in GS1 (or can be ported from TLA) and if you have any plans to port the advanced reviving patch to GS1.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Salanewt on 14, December, 2015, 04:22:48 AM
Sweet.

Animation: Not that I know of, but I may be able to whip one up pretty easily by removing redundant instructions in the base Revive animation function (like I did for the Jupiter variant in the overhaul patch). Do you know/remember where the animation table is in GS1? I'll ask Fox/Tea if you don't. Also, I may not be able to do it until after my exam tomorrow, but I can't see it being very hard to do.

Advanced: None at this time. I can try figuring it out when I get around to the animation, although I can't promise I will find the section I need to edit for it.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 14, December, 2015, 07:39:00 AM
Isn't there a mars revival djinn?  Most of the element heal effects come from djinn anyways, so I figure you could use that.  If nothing else, there's the Wonder Bird's regen dance...


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 14, December, 2015, 12:37:13 PM
@Squirtle: I remember finding it some time ago, i'll post it to you once i find it again. Nevermind, i was wrong, sorry.

BTW about the other one, the only thing i care for is to make field reviving heal only 50% of max HP, to match the in battle effect, so there's no need for the whole advanced reviving thing. I think i could even do that myself if i had the addresses... after all it should be either a duplicate of the in battle code or a call to the in battle function.

@Role. It's GS1 so no djinn (there's only mercury and venus) and no regen dance


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 14, December, 2015, 12:44:03 PM
Ah.  Hmm... Off chance you can import animations?  That'd certainly be hella useful...


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Salanewt on 14, December, 2015, 03:30:42 PM
Sounds good. Are there any other animations you would like me to take a look at and/or try to create variants for? Can't make any promises, but still.

Import animations: It could be pretty difficult because of how differently animations are compiled between the two games. But for things like Revive and such, I doubt it would be very hard to add variants that also exist in GS2. Making minor changes to animations like that is pretty easy for me to do.

Although if I were to try, this would be the first thing I would import (from GS1). This is the only good/almost complete animation I was unable to find in GS2. Also no sound, but that seems pretty common for unused animations in general.

BWrJaw1pcTc


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 14, December, 2015, 03:48:16 PM
Sounds good. Are there any other animations you would like me to take a look at and/or try to create variants for? Can't make any promises, but still.
Animation-wise i don't think so, cause i always tried to avoid making abilities that would create those kind of problems, but the second revive was REALLY needed so i had to make an exception. And after the 50% reviving i don't think there would be anything left for me to do on in assembly, only small tweaks/fixes with the editor. It's very close to being complete :D


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Salanewt on 14, December, 2015, 04:59:09 PM
That's great! If I don't take a look at it after my exam tonight, then I will likely try to figure it out within the next couple days or so.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 14, December, 2015, 05:03:46 PM
That's great! If I don't take a look at it after my exam tonight, then I will likely try to figure it out within the next couple days or so.
As always, no need to hurry. I'm already very grateful to you and Fox for all the times you've helped me those 11 months and i certainly don't want to rush or pressure you. Good luck for your exam! :D


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Salanewt on 14, December, 2015, 08:27:44 PM
I'm always happy to help! Plus it's fun to dive into the code and...

Wait, 11 months? HAS IT ALMOST BEEN A YEAR NOW?! Damn, lol. I better get my butt going on Disco Sun soon. Might see if I can try out your hack for ideas first though. :P


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 15, December, 2015, 05:31:00 AM
Alright, one of the real reasons that you feel that TBS is more difficult than TLA, especially before you're given access to good team-wide healing is the size of enemy parties. On average, you facing more random enemies per encounter in TBS than TLA, and it really shows when you can't AoE clear things that hurt, especially early. TLA decides to make you go 4v2 against larger minions, on average, versus TBS giving more smaller enemies.

I'll back this up with some examples of enemy parties in an edit, but it's time for bed here.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 16, December, 2015, 12:34:38 AM
Another thing to consider for sure, i'll be waiting for details


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 16, December, 2015, 04:49:36 AM
Ok, I don't know the editor perfectly, but I could have sworn there was a way to see enemy groups as they appeared in each stage. If not, I'll just have to use anecdotes for remembering how, like, 5 little spider dudes show up to destroy your party in Kolima Forest and you face, like, an Emu and a Creeper in Air's Rock. Your parties are approximately the same level.

Sigh, Isaac isn't in Sm4sh. I'm pretty disappointed in this even though I had no reason to expect him getting in. I really, really just want Golden Sun 4 so I know how this story ends. Goddamn it.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 16, December, 2015, 05:50:32 AM
Yeah, with Bayonetta being the winner, I think GS is pretty much a dead IP until we get another chance when smash 5 comes out.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: leaf on 16, December, 2015, 06:46:22 AM
Ok, I don't know the editor perfectly, but I could have sworn there was a way to see enemy groups as they appeared in each stage. If not, I'll just have to use anecdotes for remembering how, like, 5 little spider dudes show up to destroy your party in Kolima Forest and you face, like, an Emu and a Creeper in Air's Rock. Your parties are approximately the same level.

Sigh, Isaac isn't in Sm4sh. I'm pretty disappointed in this even though I had no reason to expect him getting in. I really, really just want Golden Sun 4 so I know how this story ends. Goddamn it.
I don't remember the spiders being a big deal in kolima. It was the damn bees that always got me. They do crazy damage for how many they send at you.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 16, December, 2015, 06:44:41 PM
Yeah, I guess I just wanted to get the point across that TBS set you against a larger number of smaller enemies that were more difficult to AoE clear, while TLA generally sees you pitted against 2 (rarely 3) medium-sized monsters that generally fail to one round of weapon unleashes without doing any real damage.

I can't tell if TBS' enemies just had higher stats, were more numerous, if party composition changes were that great of an effect (2 warriors, a caster, and a healer vs 2 warriors and 2 casters), djinn availability at different points in the game, relative weapon strength, all that jazz. I have a sinking feeling it's all of those things combined.

HOWEVER, there is no reason that my party should not steamroll through the game if I have my djinn well-organized and my classes optimized. I don't want to make an impossible game, but I don't know how to swing the scale.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Salanewt on 16, December, 2015, 07:46:33 PM
A part of that as well may be faster level/experience growth in GS2, since a lot of the GS1 enemies that are encountered in GS2 areas are much weaker than the other enemies they appear with. You are also expected to be higher leveled by the end of GS2 than in GS1. 38-44 vs. 18-22? By the time you get to Jupiter Lighthouse, you are most likely stronger than when you beat Venus in the first game. And then returning enemies, which are often weaker than or comparable to the other enemies around them: The fighter bee, since bees came up, may be tougher when you first encounter it around Kalay but is super weak by the time you fight them in the Eastern Sea, because they haven't been scaled up like the player characters. The Eastern Sea happens sooner than Kalay does, yet your GS2 team will probably be around level 19-20 by the time you start boating. Calamar(i), which can be encountered with the bee in GS2 and just before it in GS1, is even worse.

This is also ignoring the fact that it's quite possible that GS2 (or even both games) have battle systems that are not set up for the sheer number of djinn you can find, and this is evident in GS1 where they start placing a djinn in every second room by the time you get to Kalay. Or so it feels like anyway. Very few enemies (exclusively bosses I think) actually have the ability to manipulate your djinn/class setups. And then you have Isaac & co's lower djinn count when not using transfer data, meaning that the expectation is for the player to not find everything in a given playthrough. Which, while fair, makes the games much easier if you actually do find everything... almost too easy.

Summary: Enemy strength scales differently between the two games, but player strength also grows differently. Your GS1 team is likely weaker than your GS2 game at almost every point (even starting levels), and the enemies in GS2 are not set up to deal with that. Especially true when considering djinn.

Stronger enemies are also present that are closer in strength to the player characters in the second game, but then everything you brought up becomes especially relevant when combined with some of these issues.

Summary of summary: GS1 is more balanced than GS2. At least without finding all of the djinn.


Not even going to bother talking about the summon system or Mia either.



Edit: Also, Caledor; I plan to check those things out for you soonish. Quite possibly tonight or tomorrow night.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 16, December, 2015, 10:22:28 PM
I'll try to put all those tips to good use. There are many ways to fix this... the easiest (and safest) one is to increase the stat multipliers for tla enemies. Another one is to increase the number of enemies but that has the side effect of increasing exp. Also keep in mind that the lower stat/level for enemies and higher number of djinn is somehow mitigated by weaker equipment (in my mod at least. in vanilla TLA equipment stats skyrocketed from the western sea onwards and made things even worse).

@Varden: from the editor you can view enemy groups by clicking on Individuals from the enemies tab. It doesn't list where they are but they are grouped by location and the wiki also can help with that

@Squirtle: Great! If all goes well, i should be done with this during the holidays, which is way earlier than my original goal (the 1 year anniversary of the thread).


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Salanewt on 17, December, 2015, 04:42:38 AM
Mars revive is good to go, and I even threw in a Jupiter one as an added bonus. It uses the same arguments as the GS2 overhaul patch, and the old Mercury revive pointer is deleted because it has been obsoleted. A couple variables and/or values have been tweaked slightly and made marginally less flexible, but that probably doesn't matter for the most part.

Apparently the Revive animation makes the target flash to a different palette swap briefly, which is noticeable on large enemies. I thought it was the patch, but I tested it on an unmodified version and it seems to do the same thing there. The animation itself obscures the swap on smaller enemies and probably the PCs at least. So... yeah. It should be available in the downloads section for anyone who wants it.



I haven't looked into advanced reviving yet, but I can't see that being too hard when the time comes. I'll take a quick peek soon enough, depending on how my studies go.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 17, December, 2015, 03:30:12 PM
Just patched it. Psynergy Revive works wonders for all elements but when using Quartz or Dew the djinni graphic becomes messed up (basically becomes missingNo from pokemon)


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Salanewt on 17, December, 2015, 05:40:08 PM
Huh. I'll have to take another look I guess; I forgot to test djinn. Sorry about that!

Edit: Aaaand I broke it. I'll get back to it later.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 17, December, 2015, 06:45:32 PM
no problem of course ;) just reporting back to you

EDIT: opening post updated. Made some rearrangements, added detailed info on debuffs.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 21, December, 2015, 12:37:12 PM
Ok guys, time for suggestions.

As you probably know, currently both in GS and in TLA enemies are stronger due to having x1.5 HP, x1.25 Atk, x1.2 Def, x1.25 Agi. The point is, GS is better balanced than TLA (TLA is easier) so having the same multipliers for both games is kinda wrong.

IMO there are 3 ways to address this: increase the TLA multipliers only, decrease the GS multipliers only, or reduce the GS multipliers AND increase the TLA multipliers. I also want to avoid to simply increase the number of enemies in TLA like varden suggested some time ago cause that affects experience earned.

I still haven't thought about numbers but in the first 2 cases it's likely going to be a ~10% increase (decrease) to TLA (GS) multipliers, while in the third a 5%~7% decrease to GS and a 5%~7% increase to TLA.

I'm asking you cause, while I seriously think that even a 15% increase in TLA might not be enough to bring it close to GS's level of difficulty, i'm really worried about early game TLA balance (eg. up to level 10-13 so Air's Rock). In this stage Sheba already faints a lot if you're not careful and it might become very frustrating with an increase in difficulty. Also, some early game bosses (and maybe some djinn or mimics) are already big threats as they are now (Briggs and King Scorpion above all).
But at the same time, GS's level of difficulty was generally praised for being fine.

ATM, i'm inclined to tweak both games. The effect on them would be less noticeable, especially early game, which is the the part that worries me the most.

What do you guys think?

PS. if you think you have a better idea to address this issue do not hesitate and let me know!


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 21, December, 2015, 01:09:07 PM
Problem with TLA is that it goes full open for a while, and that's why things are considered to be "easier" - they had to be build to account for multiple sequences of completion.  To be honest... I've no idea how to address this, apart from maybe applying the monster coliseum monster level up feature into the main game. :/


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 21, December, 2015, 01:15:35 PM
Problem with TLA is that it goes full open for a while, and that's why things are considered to be "easier" - they had to be build to account for multiple sequences of completion.  To be honest... I've no idea how to address this, apart from maybe applying the monster coliseum monster level up feature into the main game. :/
No wait, that's not the point. The point is that identical enemies in GS and TLA have different levels, being higher for TLA, which results in a easier game cause you fight the same enemy with a stronger party in the second game. The full open thing might be considered an issue but is not what i was talking about


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Salanewt on 21, December, 2015, 04:27:39 PM
I honestly thought that the two games were pretty comparable in difficulty, just with GS1 maybe being slightly harder for both the smaller party and the slower level gain. Punch Ants are one level higher than Vermin with only defence being higher (by a single point), yet they also give slightly more experience. Even the bat enemies are different. Standard GS1 bats and giant bats in GS2 have very similar stats for the most part, yet the bats in GS2 give six experience points while the ones in GS1 only give two. Same moveset, same attack stat... this doesn't seem to be true for identical enemies though, where only the level is boosted and/or a new vulnerability is sometimes added.

For a better comparison, you can look at the enemies in Taopo (http://goldensun.wikia.com/wiki/Taopo_Swamp#Bestiary). Two enemies are new, and the rest come from around Kalay or the cave dungeon in Vault. The four highest experience counts in Taopo are listed below:

Ghost Mage: 80 exp
Cave Troll: 106 exp
Dire Wolf: 118 exp
Faery: 172 exp

And the only stat that the wolf beats the troll in is agility. Everything else, even coin reward, is either equal or lower.

So my suggestion would be to consider changing experience/leveling rates before going after stats themselves.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 21, December, 2015, 05:18:12 PM
I don't really want to touch exp gained, cause it was made in a way that when the GS1 party joins, the 8 characters are pretty much at the same level. Moreover, the reason exp varies so greatly for no apparent reasons is that enemies carried over from GS1 had their level increased and everything else untouched. The wolf gives higher experience than the Troll cause the latter's "real" level is 16, not 23. And is one of the best level 16 enemies by exp gain. I think that enemies introduced in TLA give higher amount of exp than expected in order to address this "unbalance".


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 22, December, 2015, 12:30:50 PM
Yeah, XP and cash rewards do need to be looked at at some point, that's a good point.  I hadn't actually considered that...  It might be worth looking into making a spreadsheet or something to gauge how to level enemies up and down based on the trends of their species lines in case you have to raise or lower a level, and some enemies just need to have reworked XP rewards in general.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: GSDjinn on 22, December, 2015, 01:13:17 PM
Hi i just done done playing your balanced version of GS and am now trying to transfer my save to your balanced version The Lost Age and it keeps telling me invalid password, i have made sure i copied the password perfectly, how do i fix this? :NeutralStar:


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 22, December, 2015, 01:55:37 PM
Hi i just done done playing your balanced version of GS and am now trying to transfer my save to your balanced version The Lost Age and it keeps telling me invalid password, i have made sure i copied the password perfectly, how do i fix this? :NeutralStar:
Hi GSDjinn, first and foremost thank you for playing through the first half of the game with the mod.
About the password, i just tested myself and everything works fine, so my advice is to check your password again.
Anyway, if you upload your save file somewhere and post the link here i can test directly with yours and let you know.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Salanewt on 22, December, 2015, 09:42:38 PM
Experience: While you definitely have a good point, I can't imagine it would hurt to consider just redistributing them a bit at the very least. Like that Faery; 40 or so points could be given to some of the other enemies to balance them out a bit without changing much else.

Role: Makes sense. I remember dropping coin rewards a lot for Disco Sun, but there wasn't a particular formula or anything. Would be interesting to see what you come up with.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 22, December, 2015, 10:40:41 PM
Experience: While you definitely have a good point, I can't imagine it would hurt to consider just redistributing them a bit at the very least. Like that Faery; 40 or so points could be given to some of the other enemies to balance them out a bit without changing much else.
It doesn't hurt at all. Actually it makes sense moving exp around to balance out things. But just moving exp would have no impact whatsoever on the actual game played, only on consistency (like the change i suggested some time ago, rotating the swords icons). So i'll leave it for later, when i'm troughly done with balancing gameplay and i can afford to spend time on those minor changes. It's just a matter of priorities ;)


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Salanewt on 22, December, 2015, 11:22:09 PM
That's a good point. Especially with how minor it would seem while also being a pretty major thing to actually change.

Just curious, but what are you prioritizing right now? Finished my last exam earlier, so I plan to get back to your earlier requests pretty soon (% Reviving and Mars Revive, I recall). I may know how I broke djinn animations, but it will suck if I'm right. Also helping someone else with something relatively minor yet potentially fun; that may only a couple more days or so, at least.

Let me know if you need a hand with anything else!


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 22, December, 2015, 11:39:26 PM
@Priorities: tomorrow it's gonna be the (not so) great "gotta buy gift for parents and friends"-day, so definitively that one, haha.

Jokes aside, the plan is to get the rebalance of enemies done (still gotta decide HOW to rebalance them from the options i wrote on my previous post), add the "Mars Revive", the "Field 50% Revive" and release v1.30, which already contains the changes included in the changelog below.

Removing overflow classes from GS1 as well would be an added bonus that might come with or after v1.30. the only thing i need for that is a way to access the PC ID within the class function. TLA had it within a registry, GS1 doesn't and i couldn't find a pointer to the PC in RAM either... which is kinda strange IMO.

Anyway, that's all I have in mind ATM. As you can see here's no real priority system cause i just focus on a 1-2 thing at a time and get them done. I'll look for other things to change only after i'm done with those, unless someone else's comment brings up something interesting.

4 turn Death Curse in gs1
Remedy psynergy created (single target Tonic).
break cost increased to 12
restore cost increased to 6
potent cure cost increased to 14
nature boon cost increased to 18, bp decreased to 500
ply series cost increased to 5-10-24, pure ply bp decreased to 700
Haunt triggering rate to 40%
Delusion makes you miss 70% of the time
Base chance to inflict Delusion to 70%
Characters wrapped in Delusion can't unleash
Star Magician tweaked (yes, again)
New enemy: Brutal Wolf, replaces Creeper in the Air's Rock interior


Sticky minions:
   wild gorilla's hp +50
   turtle dragon hp +20


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Salanewt on 22, December, 2015, 11:46:59 PM
Sounds good. I'll take another look at the revive stuff again tonight, just doing some general research right now. Same with the revive I think. If you're set on the multiplier solution, then I would opt for increasing them in GS2 at the very least.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 22, December, 2015, 11:55:26 PM
It's not like i'm set on that solution... it's just the first that came to mind cause it's easy and bound to get the job done. I'm leaning towards the -5%/+5% (=both games) due to the concerns i wrote about in that post, but i'm very open to other ideas.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 23, December, 2015, 01:59:43 AM
Hmm... you know, increasing enemy variety isn't that bad of an idea - I like the approach with the brutal wolf.  Maybe you could simply add a fourth tier for monsters to help better tweak the problem to what you need...

Also, what element is Remedy?  Mercury?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 23, December, 2015, 02:14:35 AM
Yes, obviously mercury


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: GSDjinn on 23, December, 2015, 07:09:59 AM
Hi i just done done playing your balanced version of GS and am now trying to transfer my save to your balanced version The Lost Age and it keeps telling me invalid password, i have made sure i copied the password perfectly, how do i fix this? :NeutralStar:
Hi GSDjinn, first and foremost thank you for playing through the first half of the game with the mod.
About the password, i just tested myself and everything works fine, so my advice is to check your password again.
Anyway, if you upload your save file somewhere and post the link here i can test directly with yours and let you know.

Here i think you can download it from here :NeutralStar:
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B1ZS3mL5XTI3YTlybDZ2Ry1WNDQ&usp=sharing


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 23, December, 2015, 09:07:04 AM
Hi i just done done playing your balanced version of GS and am now trying to transfer my save to your balanced version The Lost Age and it keeps telling me invalid password, i have made sure i copied the password perfectly, how do i fix this? :NeutralStar:
Hi GSDjinn, first and foremost thank you for playing through the first half of the game with the mod.
About the password, i just tested myself and everything works fine, so my advice is to check your password again.
Anyway, if you upload your save file somewhere and post the link here i can test directly with yours and let you know.

Here i think you can download it from here :NeutralStar:
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B1ZS3mL5XTI3YTlybDZ2Ry1WNDQ&usp=sharing

It works, check your password again.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 23, December, 2015, 12:39:57 PM
Yes, obviously mercury
Eh, you never know.  You could have made a Venus or Mars recovery spell - was worth the ask. :3


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 23, December, 2015, 01:11:20 PM
Yes, obviously mercury
Eh, you never know.  You could have made a Venus or Mars recovery spell - was worth the ask. :3
Well it was more like i thought people knew the element from "single target TONIC", but the answer came like that cause i wrote from the phone for once and i don't really like doing so :P.
Anyway, i'm quite satisfied with how i balanced out the elements, so i don't think i'll give a recovery spell to other elements. Want to keep the best healing on mercury cause it offsets with having the weakest offense in the game.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 27, December, 2015, 12:07:15 AM
Progress report for v1.30

+ Implemented the -5%/+5% on enemy stats in TBS/TLA
+ Seal from Luff and Rime has a 150% base success rate and is affected by Luck.

The second was mostly done to avoid making Deadbeard a walk in the park.

Now all that's left is for me to check that all the enemies in TLA have the correct stats and a generic check of enemy abilities since I just remember that i've never done that.

There were other minor things that crossed my mind like making custom icons for the Herculean Axe and Vajra Mace, but i kinda renounced on that for the time being but might pop up again for a later version.

Another thing i gave up is the full class separation on GS1. That thing is way crazier than on TLA, I don't have neither the character ID (they literally don't exist in GS1) nor the class value stored. I'd have to implement or somehow replace the first, track the functions for the second and edit other 2 or 3 functions to create the space the whole thing requires. Basically, the effort is too much for the result. Maybe in the future i'll try again but i feel that this is the very last thing i'll ever do on this mod.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 27, December, 2015, 12:21:02 AM
Wait, double checking here - is that variable stats on foes, or minor tweaks on foes?

@Class Separation:  Wow, looks like that'll be a pretty tough mod, huh?  Do we know what exactly will have to be done, or is it still a shot in the dark at this point?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 27, December, 2015, 12:31:16 AM
Wait, double checking here - is that variable stats on foes, or minor tweaks on foes?

@Class Separation:  Wow, looks like that'll be a pretty tough mod, huh?  Do we know what exactly will have to be done, or is it still a shot in the dark at this point?
The rule of thumb is that every foe has now -5% to its stats in TBS and +5% stats on TLA compared to the current version. There are a few exceptions, like in TLA the superbosses weren't changed but i simply won't bother listing all of them.

About class separation, yes I know what needs to be done. The hard part is to track functions to find a point when is the class value stored in a registry. Then comes the VERY time consuming part of coding the whole thing (which is pretty much all in my head already). TLA was way easier cause we had a single function to tweak and both the class ID and char ID stored in different registries. Both values are needed for implementing class separation and in GS1 ATM i have neither of them. And as if this wasn't enough, the TLA function is split into smaller functions (hence the tracking required).


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 27, December, 2015, 12:55:17 AM
Ah, I see.  I'm rather fond of foes having some degree of variable stats, so if you'd have figure that out I'd have been suuuper interested.  Personally, I think it'd be neat if they showed up with ±1 level, and ranged between 80-100% of their HP and PP upon encountering them (weighted towards a higher percentage).  It'd give the world a more lived in feel IMO, implying statistically that things happen when they're not getting killed by the player.  Not something I'd really push for with a remixed/rebalanced patch like this, but definitely a way I'd build a new adventure...


@Class Separation:  Ah, so it's a tedium issue.  Yeah, that's why I've not really made a balance patch of my own - I don't have the patience for it with the way the editor is now. It just doesn't have the functionality it'd need for me to do things as quickly as I'd like to (it shouldn't take me an hour to make a single class line, dangit!).


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Salanewt on 27, December, 2015, 06:14:33 AM
Tedium: In all fairness, one could easily make the first class of each line and use a calculator and hex editor to simply copy+paste them and then use the editor for minor fixes. Took me no more than a couple hours or so to do all of them, though I will admit it would be easier if the editor could simply do that for you.

Patch requests: Oh yeah, still working on that. Unless you figured out out that is. I have been much busier than I was expecting to be during the holidays, which is cool I guess.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 27, December, 2015, 12:33:02 PM
Ah, I see.  I'm rather fond of foes having some degree of variable stats, so if you'd have figure that out I'd have been suuuper interested.  Personally, I think it'd be neat if they showed up with ±1 level, and ranged between 80-100% of their HP and PP upon encountering them (weighted towards a higher percentage).  It'd give the world a more lived in feel IMO, implying statistically that things happen when they're not getting killed by the player.  Not something I'd really push for with a remixed/rebalanced patch like this, but definitely a way I'd build a new adventure...
I never thought about that but it sure looks interesting. I can see it being doable in TLA by tweaking the hard mode function, but if i knew where that one was located i'd probably use it first to tweak hard mode itself :P


Patch requests: Oh yeah, still working on that. Unless you figured out out that is. I have been much busier than I was expecting to be during the holidays, which is cool I guess.
I actually have no clue on how to do them (especially the animation) so I'm afraid i'll have to wait for your help. But like i always said, please take your time :)

EDIT (Progress report): Everything's done. Deadbeard gained a special physical attack and Doom Dragon has been slightly tweaked. Some enemy abilities have been strengthened.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 30, December, 2015, 10:39:58 PM
First (almost acceptable) attempt at granting the Punishment series the unique icons it deserves

(http://i.imgur.com/EEbWaKk.png)

(http://i.imgur.com/m1UxDJw.png)

I already tried with plasma variants by tweaking Role's fulminous series but it didn't really came out well.
Maybe i'll try once again without tweaking it this time.

Also, contrary to what i said some time ago to Varden, the Elder and Estre Wood icons are duplicates so 1 is basically free. Also in Pixie/Faerie/Weird Ninph series' icons, 2 of them are identical and the third differs only by having second "sparkling dot". So, basically 3 more free icon slots.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 31, December, 2015, 11:36:03 PM
Eh, my Fulminous series was meant for a set of line of site attacks, so I don't think they'd work for a vertical-oriented animation like a plasma variant.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 02, January, 2016, 02:03:18 AM
Cal, have you considered making an icon that is more symbolic?

The ones you posted are the same as the Bolt series, but pink, right?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 02, January, 2016, 02:16:54 AM
Yes, Bolt and Ray with very light changes and turned pink. I also don't really like how plain it looks but I think it HAS too remind of thunder so i can't use the windrose.

This is the current version
http://i.imgur.com/wkuUZhD.png (http://i.imgur.com/wkuUZhD.png)

Just tried with the symbol of zeus' bolt but i couldn't manage to make it look good.

Also Veil/Screen
(http://i.imgur.com/DypKTn3.png)

Edit: Latest version. Vertically flipping the icons finally emphasizes on the single target part. Starting to like it.
(http://i.imgur.com/bsEYuDl.png)


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 02, January, 2016, 05:15:00 AM
Pink and purple are not the same color. :x

@Varden:  I don't understand what you're asking in regards to those icons you posted...


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 02, January, 2016, 07:40:44 AM
Ah, sorry. Was fiddling around with the word editor and trying to post images from web pages. I can see how it would have been confusing with my question. The icons themselves have nothing to do with anything.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 02, January, 2016, 04:14:58 PM
Ah so it wasn't a specific suggestion. Well, I already went with the latest version posted for punishment, but i know it's far from perfect, so... if someone wants to give it a shot, I'm open for replacements.

EDIT: Current changelog. It's getting quite big
Break cost increased to 12
Restore cost increased to 6
Potent cure cost increased to 14
Nature boon cost increased to 18, bp decreased to 500
Ply series cost increased to 5-10-24, pure ply bp decreased to 700
Haunt triggering rate to 40%
Delusion makes you miss 70% of the time
Base chance to inflict Poison, Venom, Delusion, Stun, Sleep, Seal, and Haunt reduced
Characters wrapped in Delusion can't unleash
A few enemy abilities tweaked
Guardian/Protector replaced with Guard/Protect for all classes
Magic Shell/Magic Shield replaced with Ward/Resist
The Punishment series has now unique custom-made icons
-5%/+5% HP, Atk, Def and Agi to each enemy (in TBS/TLA) and other tweaks
Death Curse's countdown starts at 4 instead of 7 in TBS
Remedy psynergy created (single target Tonic). Replaces Cure Poison and Restore at Angel and Druid stage, and in the Pure Mage and Guardian series.
Deadbeard, Star Magician and Doom Dragon tweaked
New enemy: Brutal Wolf, replaces Creeper in the Air's Rock interior
Seal from Luff and Rime has a base 150% chance of success and is now affected by Luck
Veil/Screen have now unique custom-made icons
Baffle Card and Mist restored. Weird Ninph has the same icon as Pixie and Fairy
Cost for many of the Tamer class series psynergies tweaked. "May deal double damage" effect moved from Gryphon to Minotaur.

To be added: Mars Revive animation and Revive 50% HP outside of battle in TBS


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 04, January, 2016, 02:09:18 PM
Another update for v1.30
Piers joins the party at lv 17 but will level up slightly faster while still remaining the slowest character at leveling as described here (http://forum.goldensunhacking.net/index.php?topic=2094.msg37967#msg37967). The excel sheet the above statement refers to can be found here (http://forum.goldensunhacking.net/index.php?topic=19.msg111#msg111) (thanks for both, Role). Also, Dullahan has been slightly tweaked.

First post updated. Remember that all the info written there still refer to v1.27, which is the current one.

Edit: Terminology section in the first post completed. Let me know any request (doubt) regarding terms or lines of dialogue that should be changed (were changed). I won't change anything else on my own cause i never played the english games.

Edit 2: Illuminated from the Monk-Guru series will become Enlightened. I think it was a very stupid linguistic blunder of mine... i'm surprised no one ever brought it up.

Edit 3: I think I'm going to check useable items once again and improve those that might seem too underwhelming. The first of the list is the Cheongsam (China Dress), which now also grants a passive bonus of +3 to Luck.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 05, January, 2016, 08:05:46 AM
I still stand by my belief that on-use gear is largely pointless with the random chance to break.  Adding some passive effects to give them a point I think is a great idea.


Honestly, this could easily be fixed by giving these items their own PP stats, so that when you cast their ability you drain the item's PP away until it needs to be recharged.  Would completely solve the issue if it used the recharge mechanic rather than a random break mechanic - heck, you could even have items to restore useable gear PP in such a system.  Such a shame that GS really can't support it, you know?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 05, January, 2016, 11:21:04 AM
While the recharge mechanic would be an obvious improvement, i don't think the randomly break is what makes those item pointless. IMHO it still largely depends on the actual effect of the item... the difference between a free Dull and a free Wish Well is just too big.

The small passive bonus in the end is a nice compromise.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 05, January, 2016, 12:31:26 PM
/me shrugs.

If you can't rely on it, why use it?  It's why I'd use a mist potion before using even a Ring of Pure Wish - I know I can at least replenish my supply, and know how many uses I'm getting out of it. 


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 05, January, 2016, 12:38:58 PM
IIRC, in the vanilla game you can replenish your supply of Mist Potions only at Prox, while the Spirit Ring is available as soon as you enter the Eastern Sea... That's a LOT of time.

It's true that's not completely reliable, but still... it's there and it's free. If it breaks... at worst you saved the PP of a single cast.

EDIT: In the end, useable items that got a passive bonus are Cheongsam, Bone Armlet (+15 VRes) and Faery Vest (+30 JRes). Otafuku and Hiotoko mask will have their special attack boosted. The only useable items without passive boosts left should be Glittering Tiara, Floral Dress and Prophet's Hat. For the first two, i'll be leaving them as they are cause i'm ok with having 1 "crappy fountain item" per game (crappy = effect wise. Their DEF is still the highest of anything you could find till that point of the game). With prophet's hat, i just ran out of ideas cause I don't want to make those passive bonuses too redundant. Guess I just can't balance them all.

EDIT2: Otafuku's Water Breath is BP 90 (from 50) and Hiotoko's Fire Breath is BP 130 (from 85).
Well, that's it. I don't really know what I else could i do with this. From now on, v1.30 for both games it's gonna be released the very second I have the Mars revive and 50% field revive into GS1.

Both games
Break cost increased to 12
Restore cost increased to 6
Potent cure cost increased to 14
Nature boon cost increased to 18, bp decreased to 500
Ply series cost increased to 5-10-24, pure ply bp decreased to 700
Remedy psynergy created (single target Tonic). Replaces Cure Poison and Restore at Angel and Druid stage, and in the Pure Mage and Guardian series.
Haunt triggering rate to 40%
Delusion makes you miss 70% of the time
Base chance to inflict Poison, Venom, Delusion, Stun, Sleep, Seal, and Haunt reduced
Characters wrapped in Delusion can't unleash
A few enemy abilities tweaked
Guardian/Protector replaced with Guard/Protect for all classes
Magic Shell/Magic Shield replaced with Ward/Resist
The Punishment series has now unique custom-made icons
Illuminated tier from the Monk-Guru class series renamed to Enlightened
Cheongsam, Bone Armlet, Fujin Shield, Faery Vest tweaked
Seal from Luff and Rime has a base 150% chance of success and is now affected by Luck

The Broken Seal only
-5% HP, Atk, Def and Agi to each enemy and other tweaks
Death Curse's countdown starts at 4 instead of 7
Deadbeard tweaked

The Lost Age only
+5% HP, Atk, Def and Agi to each enemy and other tweaks
Star Magician, Dullahan and Doom Dragon tweaked
New enemy: Brutal Wolf, replaces Creeper in the Air's Rock interior
Piers joins at level 17 but levels up faster than before (he's still the slowest)
Veil/Screen have now unique custom-made icons
Water/Flame Breath skill of Otafuku/Hiotoko mask improved.
Baffle Card and Mist restored. Weird Ninph has the same icon as Pixie and Fairy
Cost for many of the Tamer class series psynergies tweaked. "May deal double damage" effect moved from Gryphon to Minotaur.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 08, January, 2016, 02:27:46 AM
Did you change which ability they use, or change the ability itself?  IIRC, the masks use monster skills...


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 08, January, 2016, 09:23:18 AM
I made duplicates of their abilities and tweaked those.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Misery on 09, January, 2016, 01:34:25 PM
@Breakable cast items: I was never really a fan of these in the originals either, but the idea isn't all that bad... think of them as consumable items that have a chance to not be used up. And which also happen to have the option of being equipped. The two should be mutually exclusive, you don't want to risk your equipment breaking unless that's the only way to use the effect.

The reason these are pretty much useless in the originals is for the same reason consumable items are pretty much useless in general (still in the originals). Except for Water of Life and Psy Crystal, which would be pretty crazy to give to this type of item.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: leaf on 09, January, 2016, 10:06:47 PM
In vanilla, most items only exist for one-time cheese strats anyway (e.g. using the ice item against saturos or the sleep bomb in colosso), and quickly become outclassed. I don't think any of the equip items with active effects even get used, with the exception of the spirit ring in GS2, because it doesn't break when used outside of battle.

edit: @Prophets hat: I would just treat the item as a pure defense boost and balance its DEF appropriately. After all, an item does not need to be equipped to use its active effect, so it really *is* just a defense boost.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 09, January, 2016, 10:20:38 PM
edit: @Prophets hat: I would just treat the item as a pure defense boost and balance its DEF appropriately. After all, an item does not need to be equipped to use its active effect, so it really *is* just a defense boost.
It's already balanced. As I wrote on the first post, every single piece of equipment found in each game is the best of its kind you could find up to that point. "Best" refers to the main stat of the item: Atk for weapons and Def for Armors.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 13, January, 2016, 01:12:37 PM
Changelog update for v1.30:
Demon Night's BP, PP cost, and learning level increased.
PP cost of Drain increased to 20.
Fear puppet tweaked: learned earlier, deals damage (BP 60), chance to stun decreased.
Azul's base chance to stun increased to 150%.
Lich (Dark Mage class series) renamed Death Mage.
Minor class fixes (learning levels).
Mia and Sheba's Warlock class series fixed (was different from Ivan's).

- Both games
Restore cost increased to 6, Potent cure to 14 and Drain to 20.
Nature boon cost increased to 18, BP decreased to 500.
Ply series cost increased to 5-10-24, Pure Ply BP decreased to 700.
Demon Night's BP, PP cost, and learning level increased.
Guardian/Protector replaced with Guard/Protect for all classes.
Magic Shell/Magic Shield replaced with Ward/Resist.
The Punishment series has now unique custom-made icons.
A few enemy abilities tweaked.
Minor class fixes (learning levels).
Illuminated renamed Enlightened.
Cheongsam, Bone Armlet, Fujin Shield, Faery Vest tweaked.
Haunt triggering rate to 40%.
Delusion makes you miss 70% of the time.
Base chance to inflict Poison, Venom, Delusion, Stun, Sleep, Seal, and Haunt reduced.
Characters wrapped in Delusion can't unleash.

- The Broken Seal only
-5% HP, Atk, Def and Agi to each enemy and other tweaks.
Deadbeard tweaked.
Remedy psynergy created (single target Tonic). Replaces Cure Poison and Restore for the White Mage.
Death Curse's countdown starts at 4 instead of 7.
Seal from Luff has a base 150% chance of success and is now affected by Luck.

- The Lost Age only
Piers joins at level 17 but levels up faster than before (he's still the slowest).
Mia and Sheba's Warlock class series fixed.
+5% HP, Atk, Def and Agi to each enemy and other tweaks.
Star Magician, Dullahan and Doom Dragon tweaked.
New enemy: Brutal Wolf, replaces Creeper in the Air's Rock interior.
Remedy psynergy created (single target Tonic). Replaces Cure Poison and Restore at Angel and Druid stage, and in the Pure Mage and Guardian series.
Veil/Screen have now unique custom-made icons.
Water/Flame Breath skill of Otafuku/Hiotoko mask are stronger.
Baffle Card and Mist restored. Weird Ninph has the same icon as Pixie and Fairy.
Cost for many of the Tamer class series psynergies tweaked. "May deal double damage" effect moved from Gryphon to Minotaur.
Fear puppet tweaked: learned earlier, deals damage (BP 60), chance to stun decreased.
Seal from Luff and Rime has a base 150% chance of success and is now affected by Luck.
Azul's base chance to stun increased to 150%.
Lich (Dark Mage class series) renamed Death Mage.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: hazeck on 14, January, 2016, 06:15:41 PM
good to see this is still updating. one of the best modifications out there :MercuryDjinni:


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 14, January, 2016, 09:37:20 PM
Thanks pal ;)
By the way v1.30 is going to be the first "final" version, cause the improvements are all done. Following releases will be mainly about bug fixes or minor tweaks.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 15, January, 2016, 04:13:57 AM
good to see this is still updating. one of the best modifications out there :MercuryDjinni:
"one of" just doesn't do it justice. XD

Considering how unwieldy the editor is, I'd argue this is pretty much the best undertaking I've seen period.

Will you be using any more custom icons, or have you pretty much gotten everything you need?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 15, January, 2016, 11:56:14 AM
Wow thanks, I'm flattered :D
... but I'm also quite proud of how this turned out. Especially since it was originally meant to be something just for me, to enjoy the nth playthrough more.

Anyway, I think I'm done with icons. Everything I've added has one and if I start editing old icons i'd never see the end of it so i'll just refrain from starting.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 18, January, 2016, 07:38:59 AM
So what are your thoughts on equipment being useable even when not equipped?  Personally, I don't really feel one way or another about it...  Or rather, I'm of mixed opinions.

On one hand, what's the point of putting it on equippable items then?  Why not just have it be a talisman or something?
On the other hand, it gives you a reason to hold onto certain pieces of gear, something that most RPGs could benefit from.  It's one of the reasons I'm a big proponent of an abundance of gear to choose from at all points in the game, and situations to encourage you to swap out that gear on the fly.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 18, January, 2016, 11:30:31 AM
There's the third way, which is making items useable even when not equipped, BUT only by those who can equip them, which is the one i like the most for GS. About the other three, i'd be okay with items useable only when equipped (i'd just make current use effects stronger if i were to switch to that) and totally against equippable items being universally useable.

I think the choice is heavily influenced by someone's take on the class system, since useable items basically serve to grant abilities that a certain class/character "shouldn't have".

If talking about a generic game instead, either could be fine because, as you said, both have their pros and cons. And it's not the single specific choice that matters; only overall balance does.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 19, January, 2016, 01:50:57 AM
Yeah... if I had my way, there's probably be 2-3x the amount of equipment in GS.  I like the idea of having a huge variety, and that not all of it is necessarily a "step up".  I like the idea of having a wide variety of things to support a variety of different playstyles, rather than having a clear set of equipment progression.  Alas, I don't think there's space for that many icons, not yet at least.  Still, fun to dream about.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: leaf on 19, January, 2016, 08:57:28 AM
@Role: I think a system like that would necessitate more plateauing at various points in the game. Similar to how there's a huge period in TLA where everything is about the same level; in this time, the player would mostly find sidegrades. The same plateauing is seen at endgame, where most equipment has some secondary effect and only a couple points difference in defense.

One thing to watch out for, it always feels bad as a player to find new equipment and discover that it's inferior to what you already have. You can somewhat alleviate this by making sure every new piece of equipment has *slightly* higher stats than the previous; if someone were to look solely at +def, every piece of equipment would be an upgrade. But, if an added effect is good enough, an extra point or two of defense is irrelevant, and the player feels more like they're making a decision when they stick with an older piece of equipment. 


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 19, January, 2016, 02:14:58 PM
I'm currently making a few class tweaks to address balance issues, so i think this is the best time to ask: should i add the 6th tier for mono-elemental classes?

EDIT:
Class tweaks for v1.30:


Edit2: Class tweaks removed cause they're still pending.

Edit 3: Read post below.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 19, January, 2016, 11:04:26 PM
@leaf:  Nah, it wouldn't - they wouldn't be strictly equal to each other.  Basically, imagine if we've got 3x the gear acquisition - it's basically a bunch of smaller steps, small enough that it encourages holding on to gear based on their secondary boosts.  It may not be worth the small upgrade of a couple points of attack in favor of regen or power or luck boosts elsewhere, based on what the situation demands.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: leaf on 20, January, 2016, 03:38:43 AM
@leaf:  Nah, it wouldn't - they wouldn't be strictly equal to each other.  Basically, imagine if we've got 3x the gear acquisition - it's basically a bunch of smaller steps, small enough that it encourages holding on to gear based on their secondary boosts.  It may not be worth the small upgrade of a couple points of attack in favor of regen or power or luck boosts elsewhere, based on what the situation demands.

I just said that lol

Example: 31 def, +15 jupiter ePow vs 33 def, +10 mars eRes


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 21, January, 2016, 10:05:04 PM
Reasons behind class changes:
Conqueror & Justice: Changes reflect the base stats of the characters better.
Acrobat: More important than the PP boost, most of its Psynergy got buffed: Frost card now tops at 210 BP.
Necromancer: 160% HP was very low.
Chaos Lord: Best offense in the game with top tier HP AND Raise? Just no.
Protector: It is completely focused on Defense, so I really felt I had to give him more HP than the Chaos Lord.
Psy Champion: Wanted to make him different from the Sun Champion by giving him a debuff.
Sun Champion: Got the Raise the Chaos Lord left behind to even out with Isaac's.
Druid: Lost Break cause Mia had it in all of her dual classes.
Guru: 175% PP was way too low for a caster. A sturdy one, but still a caster. So it got buffed.
Inquisitor: This is all about offense, but the Oracle has Punishment: 5% more PP will help in keeping up with damage.
Jonin: Originally the best warrior class period, in the mod was completely overshadowed by the Chaos Lord. The nerfs to the Chaos Lord and the buffs to the Jonin should help balancing them out.
Warlord: Stats too similar to Shogun, so i tweaked it a bit.
Worldwaker & Fury: Dark Shaman was so underwhelming that i quickly gave up trying to save it. Then I noticed that 3 out of 4 sets of tri-elemental classes had a warrior-mage hybrid (Jonin, Valkyrie, General). So I moved the Warlock to Venus, buffed it and created the 4th hybrid as a counterpart to the Valkyrie. It also helps addressing redundancy, cause the Fury is something completely unprecedented. But obviously I realized all of this only AFTER i was done with creating it, cause as soon as i imagined Mia casting Planetary i was already done with thinking. :P
Valkyrie: As usual, increased PP to increase spell damage. Gained Break cause none of Jenna's tri-elemental classes had it.
Heretic: Jenna's tri-elemental class most focused on offense desperately needed some damage: it got Punishment to make a Jupiter-oriented class.
Incantatrix: One of the classes I love the most, for being able to do literally everything. It attacks, heals, heals attacking, buffs, debuffs and revivesd. Something had to leave. I gave it Bind instead cause fits the theme well and none of Jenna's tri-elemental classes had it.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 23, January, 2016, 12:02:13 AM
This sounds great. I was kinda waiting for stat changes in some of the classes to go through. I'll have to go through the spreadsheet, but these all sound very solid and reasonable.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 23, January, 2016, 03:55:35 AM
@leaf:  Nah, it wouldn't - they wouldn't be strictly equal to each other.  Basically, imagine if we've got 3x the gear acquisition - it's basically a bunch of smaller steps, small enough that it encourages holding on to gear based on their secondary boosts.  It may not be worth the small upgrade of a couple points of attack in favor of regen or power or luck boosts elsewhere, based on what the situation demands.

I just said that lol

Example: 31 def, +15 jupiter ePow vs 33 def, +10 mars eRes
Heh, disagreeing while agreeing again, are we?  Feels like old times...


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 23, January, 2016, 03:19:29 PM
This sounds great. I was kinda waiting for stat changes in some of the classes to go through. I'll have to go through the spreadsheet, but these all sound very solid and reasonable.
Thanks. I hope i've finally managed to balance them out, especially the tri-elementals. The ones that bugged me the most were Jonin for not standing a chance to the Chaos Lord, and Dark Shaman for being Dark Shaman. The other changes are very minor if compared with those two... with the exception of Acrobat: i basically ignored it until 2 days ago somehow, despite it being one of the "completely unuseable" class from the vanilla game.

I'm currently testing the 6th tier monoelemental too see if it's viable or not. Sixth tier won't happen. It would make monoelementals too good. For example Conqueror Felix at 160% atk easily outdamages both chaos lord and Jonin even with unbuffed atk. And when both reach the atk cap (be it impact or levels) the gap widens even more due to the much higher venus power the conqueror has.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age. One year of Balance!
Post by: Caledor on 24, January, 2016, 06:01:25 PM
And so the day has come.

Today is exactly one year this long journey has started. I would've never thought it would go this far... especially considering that hacking this game was just an hobby that started many years ago (6? 7?), 'cause I loved this game from the moment i got it when i was around 12, and enjoying the changes i did after each playtrough was the reason behind the following one. Needless to say, I've lost count long ago.

At first I just wanted help to make the PP Multiplier, since it was the only thing left for me to do. Or so I thought. You guys' enthusiasm and my growing desire to make this mod better and better were the trigger for more than 30 (THIRTY!) releases in the span of 10 months.

As I've stated many times, I consider v1.30 to be the first "final" release. Don't get me wrong, I'm positive there will be v1.31, v1.32 etc, 'cause bugs or balance issues are bound to pop up, but today's release concludes the improvement phase. All following releases will be about minor tweaks or fixes.

So, I'd like to thank everyone that helped me to get this far. Special mention to:
Atrius for the editor.
Lord Squirtle and Fox for their invaluable "technical assistance". :P
Rolina for being the source of inspiration behind many of the changes I've implemented and for her constant advice.
VardenSalad for his detailed reports and many feedbacks.

And everyone else that contributed, directly or indirectly, to the development of this mod by sharing their thoughts here or helping me to fix bugs: Erik the Appreciator, leaf, Misery, JamietheFlameUser, Chronotakular, Sleeping Bear Z, Exore The Mighty, owlbear, TenkaiSp, JustBeKrillin, Seelegewehr, isaac3000 and Aurorain. Hope I haven't forgotten anyone.

Obviously, a big THANK YOU to everyone that played (past, present or future) with this mod as well.

That said, v1.30 is OUT. I dubbed the one for TBS "non-final" cause it will be updated as soon as i have the Mars Revive and 50% Revive outside of battle.

Hope you guys will enjoy it!


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Chronotakular on 27, January, 2016, 06:16:47 AM
Hi Caledor! It's been a while. As always, I'm enjoying the mod and it's been fun playing it again, it was almost 10 months since I originally played it. Crazy huh?

Anyways, I've come to you with a rather dire bug (The Lost Age). I played version 1.27 and never encountered this in the most recent play-through (wanted to enter Hard Mode :happy: )

Back on track, I'm stuck. In Yampi Desert. One of the earlier screens, this is the one with the Jupiter Djinn.

(http://i.imgur.com/i8lwWZV.png?1)

This is mainly a graphical bug, but I'm convinced I can't continue. Also yes, the entire screen looks like this. Though it's possible I can't decipher what needs to be pushed or pounded.

I've tried multiple emulators and settings, I've confirmed it's the ROM. The only thing I haven't tried, which I plan to do shortly, is re-patching the ROM, just to make sure the patch didn't mess up, though I don't recall an error. I'll update this post after I've done so. Edit: Re-patched. No luck. Still buggy.

Good luck on this one, looks like a toughie.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 27, January, 2016, 11:49:58 AM
Hi Chrono!

Just checked, and looks like i messed up badly this time... Even the editor can't load the map. I have no idea of what might be the cause behind this one... or rather, it's more like anything could've caused it. Also, somehow my italian rom isn't bugged...

Still, it will be fixed: I'll have to repatch the whole ROM from scratch, but it should work. Sadly, I can't start working on it today 'cause I've got an exam tomorrow... I'll probably manage within the weekend.

Anyway, v1.30 is also broken at yampi. So... if someone wants to play with this and he's already post yampi, he should be fine. If not, please wait for next release. For the time being, i've added this notice in the download section too.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Chronotakular on 27, January, 2016, 05:27:48 PM
Hi Chrono!

Just checked, and looks like i messed up badly this time... Even the editor can't load the map. I have no idea of what might be the cause behind this one... or rather, it's more like anything could've caused it. Also, somehow my italian rom isn't bugged...

Still, it will be fixed: I'll have to repatch the whole ROM from scratch, but it should work. Sadly, I can't start working on it today 'cause I've got an exam tomorrow... I'll probably manage within the weekend.

Anyway, v1.30 is also broken at yampi. So... if someone wants to play with this and he's already post yampi, he should be fine. If not, please wait for next release. For the time being, i've added this notice in the download section too.

Hey, take your time. No rush. At least you're pretty sure you know how to fix it. I'll keep checking back and forth for the fix so I can make sure it works. I could just downgrade to progress, but I think I'd rather make sure it works for everyone else who might come across this in the future.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 29, January, 2016, 04:00:31 PM
Well, I could've used another method, given that this one is by far the most time consuming one, since it implies grabbing a clean rom and manually reapply all the pieces this mod is composed of. On the upside, this is almost foolproof if i'm careful enough. Also, I'm gaining some value from the whole process... I've already made some minor adjustment and fixes here and there.

Together with the patch i'm also planning to upload another file... a small utility for every Golden Sun player out there.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 30, January, 2016, 02:48:53 AM
v1.30 hotfix is up. This should fix the yampi desert bug and any other map glitch there was. Actually, I'm more concerned about having forgotten something since i basically restarted from scratch and went trough the work of a year in a single day.

There are two downsides with this.
1) The patch is a lot bigger: an increase in 50% in size.
2) This isn't compatible with the gstlatoolkit anymore.

For 1), the editor is responsible. When editing text, the editor writes some bytes in the F79000-FA0000 region. For some reason, this time a lot more of those appeared.
2) was my decision. I think that the yampi bug came to be when i moved the simple summons table from FB0000 to F7A000 (v1.24), overwritting some of those bytes created by the editor in the process. The table was moved to make the mod compatible with the toolkit, so moving it back to where it was makes the two uncompatible again.

Anyway, this is only an hypotesis, cause I'm not sure that I actually overwrote something when moving the table, and I don't know what those bytes actually mean. Maybe Squirtle/Fox/Atrius knows.

Now, about the (not so) small utility i promised: it's a txt file that contains every single perfect class setup (hence, no djinn wasted) that can be created in TLA with this mod. Yes, all 13828. Hope you'll find it useful!


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Chronotakular on 30, January, 2016, 03:00:16 AM
Excellent. I'll patch this and slowly play-through. I'll let you know if I find anything strange as I go, though, there is no real way for me to fairly check the beginning of the game at this point and I don't feel like restarting. :P


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 30, January, 2016, 01:50:48 PM
...Guess what? My fears were spot on, cause I forgot to lower the HP% multiplier after patching the PP multiplier.

So... v1.30 hotfix 2 is up! This also fixes the starting levels of Jenna Felix and Sheba (another thing i forgot to change).

Quote
I'll let you know if I find anything strange as I go
Thank you very much!


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Etori on 31, January, 2016, 01:24:48 AM
Sup! I just patched this onto a Lost Age game that's past the Yampi desert. Just wondering if Piers is supposed to not have frost? I feel like he is, but no matter what I do I can't get him to learn it :|


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 31, January, 2016, 01:43:54 AM
Sup! I just patched this onto a Lost Age game that's past the Yampi desert. Just wondering if Piers is supposed to not have frost? I feel like he is, but no matter what I do I can't get him to learn it :|
I switched around the innate and class psynergies of Priest. Originally he had Douse as innate and Frost by class. With this mod he gets Frost as innate and Douse by class.

Guess this means that innate psynergies are set when starting the game and ignored afterwards... Tricky, I didn't know that.

So... sorry but looks like you'll have to start a new game with the mod on... sadly I can't add it to his base class like i did for ivan cause there's no more room for abilities. Yampi was fixed with latest release so you shouldn't have any problems, but if you do you can always tell me. ;)

Thanks for reporting anyway, I added this newly discovered info to the download page.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Etori on 31, January, 2016, 02:05:02 AM
Ahh no worries! Just means I'll have to hack in a frost jewel.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 31, January, 2016, 02:07:49 AM
Ahh no worries! Just means I'll have to hack in a frost jewel.
Yeah, that would work too!


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 31, January, 2016, 02:24:01 AM
I figure that it made more sense to just make the Frost Jewel TLA only, and for him to have it in his inventory.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 31, January, 2016, 02:42:37 AM
I figure that it made more sense to just make the Frost Jewel TLA only, and for him to have it in his inventory.
Frost Jewel in TBS was somewhat useful for Colosso, in TLA would be completely redundant.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: JamietheFlameUser on 31, January, 2016, 04:14:00 AM
Innate Psynergies are better because things like Frost Jewel take up inventory slots.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Salanewt on 31, January, 2016, 07:57:02 PM
Alternately, you could add the spell to a character with a code. Although gems are cool and all in my opinion, I agree with Jamie in that filling up your inventory slots isn't really a good thing if the items in question only give you weaker abilities. They work well in the absence of innate abilities, or like how Dark Dawn did it.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 31, January, 2016, 11:35:16 PM
Looks like v1.30a is already in progress... looking at Piers today made me realize how i'm not really satisfied with him.

EDIT: ... and with fixes to boot. I outright skipped Heretic and Incantatrix when applying the v1.30 class changes  :sad:


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 01, February, 2016, 03:17:14 PM
v1.30nf fix and v1.30a are up. Opening post and class spreadsheet have been updated.

Piers got a new, water-themed psynergy set (Wave) and regained Diamond Dust as his EPA. Other tweaks were done to ALL of his tri-elemental classes and I'm finally satisfied with their psynergy sets and overall power level.

The Wave series completely replaces the Cool series but keeps the icon set (more or less... only minor changes were done to Cool) since they can pass of as waves and all my attempts looked worse than the original. The names were taken from Rolina's Class Tweaks for TLA (http://forum.goldensunhacking.net/index.php?topic=2094.0) (as usual :P) so... thanks again Role!

Ah, and since Watery Grave is now used by Tidal Surge, Caladbolg's unleash also had its animation and name changed to avoid redundancy.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 02, February, 2016, 05:36:02 AM
Just wanted to post to say the changes sound good...and congrats on 40K views on the thread.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 02, February, 2016, 11:57:18 AM
Innate Psynergies are better because things like Frost Jewel take up inventory slots.
You mean like the one it already takes up?  My suggestion was to move it from TBS to TLA...


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 02, February, 2016, 07:38:54 PM
Seeing how the first two Wave tiers aren't perfect animation wise (they were made for unleashes, so the animation acts like a single target attack), I leave the option of reverting to Cool in your hands. Let me know if you wish for it or if you like more the new one.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 03, February, 2016, 12:07:51 AM
Which wave animations are you using?  Not Dreamtide, I hope...  The other three look like they scale properly.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 03, February, 2016, 12:17:56 AM
Which wave animations are you using?  Not Dreamtide, I hope...  The other three look like they scale properly.
Other three? I'm using Dreamtide / Raging Flood / Watery Grave. There are actually more? Also, Raging Flood acts like Dreamtide: always hits only the leftmost with the animation.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: JamietheFlameUser on 03, February, 2016, 06:53:59 AM
One of the animation variants available in Salanewt's animation overhaul patch looks somewhat like Dreamtide but actually hits the correct number of targets. I don't remember which one, unfortunately.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 03, February, 2016, 11:32:06 AM
Which wave animations are you using?  Not Dreamtide, I hope...  The other three look like they scale properly.
Other three? I'm using Dreamtide / Raging Flood / Watery Grave. There are actually more? Also, Raging Flood acts like Dreamtide: always hits only the leftmost with the animation.
/me winces

Yeah, don't use Dream tide - use the Mithril Blade's (http://goldensunwiki.net/wiki/Mythril_Blade) Lethe Albion for one of them.  Dream Tide doesn't work well at all.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 03, February, 2016, 11:49:21 AM
Lethe Albion actually seems out of place with those glyphs. IMO Dream Tide fits much better. Also... the issue with Albion is the same... it hits only the leftmost.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 03, February, 2016, 12:00:58 PM
Hmm... check with Squirtle.  IIRC, he's figured out how to tweak animations to a degree.  Using Lethe Albion as a base, I'm sure you could make it work.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 03, February, 2016, 12:14:07 PM
I know but I've already asked him for help with the 2 Revive things and he's been quite busy the past few months so I definitively won't ask him this one now, since it's of (much) lower priority and I don't really want to bother him more. So for the forseeable future it's gonna stay like this.
Or, like i already said, reverting to Cool is always an option, and it's totally up to you guys. Just let me know.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 03, February, 2016, 12:40:14 PM
I'd rather save Cool for alt classes.  I've always thought Piers should be running a water-based class, after all.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 03, February, 2016, 12:45:02 PM
I know and i do agree with you... but here's no place for both. not enough icons (and i don't want duplicates... i did my best to avoid those).


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Salanewt on 03, February, 2016, 04:03:44 PM
Aw, thanks for being thoughtful about that I guess. :P

I've been meaning to toy with animations again, so I guess I can start with those requests tonight... That way I can get back to Disco Sun. Or maybe Leaf's secret request, which was about 95% done before I hit a wall. Or the shadow thing I wanted to do. Or a "Disco Inferno" ability...

- I found the field effects pointer list in GS1 a while ago, so that just involves some coding. You wanted a 50% revive, right? Do you remember what ability effect ID is the one for battle?

- As for Revive, I think I know what I did wrong before. I will restart that one from scratch, which shouldn't be too hard provided I can find enough redundant instructions to change

Waves: Yeah, the overhaul patch includes a third variant of Dreamtide and Watery Grave; Raging Flood is also an option, being related to Lethe Albrion but probably without the glyphs (used by Aqua Hydra). The major downside to the patch is that you then have to change all of the ability animation IDs, so you'd be further ahead trying that or individual fixes first.

Edit: Oh, wait, I just realized. You're probably already using that wave, hence the discussion. Then yeah, it's either overhaul or a singular fix just for that third wave.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 03, February, 2016, 05:43:32 PM
Quote
Aw, thanks for being thoughtful about that I guess. :P
Well it's the least I could do :P

BTW, I'm totally fine with the set of animations I've chosen (yes I tried the new one that comes with your patch)... the only thing that bugs me is that only Watery Grave acts like a proper multi target psy. So... what i hypothetically need is for Dreamtide and Raging Flood to act like Watery Grave (= the animation hits EVERY targeted enemy and not only the leftmost one).

However, as I already said, that's very low priority, since i can just revert to Cool in the meantime. I'd much rather have the 2 Revive tweaks for GS1 so I can end it for good and finally play with my own hack :P (i kept telling myself in the past months that i should've waited for it to be complete).

50% Revive - 5 is the ID for the 100% heal one that works on the field and 56 is the one for the 50% revive (Quartz) that doesn't work on the field. Didn't get which one you wanted so i just dropped both. Anyway, yes, making the 56 useable on the field is all I need.

Mars Revive - Great!


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Salanewt on 03, February, 2016, 06:50:03 PM
Good to know, thanks - I ask mainly because #56 does have field code already (and is the second last ability effect to have a pointer in the field list). What's weird is that using any ability aside from a select few automatically makes it a utility effect, even when a utility isn't set. Changing the Revive ability so it has the 50% effect actually works exactly like you would expect; revives to 50% in the field. I guess the utility code works a bit differently between the two games.

So it looks like I will need to look elsewhere to resolve that issue, assuming you want both field effects to have spells associated with them? I was going to suggest changing water of life if that were the case, but I forgot that GS1 has a weird issue with IDs being above a certain value. Although, you may be able to swap water of life with herbs or something...


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 03, February, 2016, 07:05:15 PM
I know 56 has a field code cause it can be used outside of battle. The issue with it is that it's bugged. It doesn't cost any PP and the sound played is the one for a failed cast (like cure poison on a non-poisoned character). I made the 50% revive in battle work by repointing the id5 revive to 56. That's why it heals fully out of battle and only 50% in battle. Honestly I would've dealt with it by adding a LSR to the HP value (guess it must be stored somewhere) at end of the field function of id5 Revive (if I knew where the function was and if there was some space).

Also... swapping items is not an option. It would mess up tons of drops in the maps and I know nothing of them.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: JamietheFlameUser on 03, February, 2016, 09:21:27 PM
BTW, I'm totally fine with the set of animations I've chosen (yes I tried the new one that comes with your patch)... the only thing that bugs me is that only Watery Grave acts like a proper multi target psy. So... what i hypothetically need is for Dreamtide and Raging Flood to act like Watery Grave (= the animation hits EVERY targeted enemy and not only the leftmost one).
Really? I could swear there was a variant that visually hits every targeted enemy but otherwise looks mostly like Dreamtide. I used it as Dreamtide's animation when using the multi-target unleashes patch in a hack I haven't uploaded.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Salanewt on 03, February, 2016, 09:51:14 PM
Jamie: If I recall correctly, the overhaul patch adds a third variant of Dreamtide and Watery Grave that is more or less a combination of the two because the unique ID for it isn't really defined in their function. Whatever makes Dreamtide single target is likely in a Dreamtide-exclusive section of the code... isolating that may actually help with removing that restriction in other animations as well.


Caledor: Huh. I guess I forgot to have my earbud in for that effect. Weird that they would do it like this. Best guess is that the effect itself isn't recognized as a valid revive effect out of battle?

Do you use the full revive for anything out of battle? If not, then a super easy fix would be to swap the pointers around; if so, then I will have to investigate further.

Swapping: Wouldn't it mostly just involve switching the ability IDs used by items around? Probably less relevant given the issue at hand, but I would think the items themselves would be largely unaffected.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 03, February, 2016, 09:59:56 PM
Caledor: Huh. I guess I forgot to have my earbud in for that effect. Weird that they would do it like this. Best guess is that the effect itself isn't recognized as a valid revive effect out of battle?
Very likely.

Quote
Do you use the full revive for anything out of battle? If not, then a super easy fix would be to swap the pointers around; if so, then I will have to investigate further.
Won't the problem with it be the same then?

BTW... why don't you try sending me the addresses where the pointer for field id 5 and 56 are located? Maybe I can find a solution myself and save you some time :)


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Salanewt on 03, February, 2016, 10:24:21 PM
I didn't think the issue would be the same, yet swapping the pointers around doesn't fix it either. Really weird, but I think I may have found the actual solution; the normal revive seems to have some extra code that allows it to cost PP and play the normal sound effect. Plus do other things. I haven't exactly pinpointed it even though I think I know (it doesn't look like the others are set up to be recognized as revives, in the same way as normal Revive). Merely changing a branch in the 50% revive fixes this issue flawlessly as far as I can tell. The other revives can be fixed by also tweaking their branches in the same way, should you or anyone else wish to do so.

080AA356 = You can fix the 50% revive by changing the branch here; 16-bit instruction, should be xE7E4.


I will take another look at the Mars revive stuff fairly soon; I'm just dreading the fact that I have to start that one over, because I remember it being less fun than other animations I have toyed with. :(


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 03, February, 2016, 10:33:58 PM
Actually I asked for the pointers cause I wanted to look at both of them, guess for the time being I'll try with this one and see what happens. Thanks and good luck with the animations... hope it won't be too much of a hassle


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Salanewt on 03, February, 2016, 10:43:08 PM
Oh, that makes sense. Here you go!

080AA18C = Field Effects list (GS1)

Please note that it ends with effect 57, and the one pointer you will see the most is basically the end of the section/code; some effects will branch there anyway, while others may branch to a slightly different location (50% revive normally does, for example).


And... relocated the animation table. Thanks, and I doubt it will be for very long. :P


Edit: I just realized how I completely broke it before. It turns out I forgot to correct Dew's animation, so the game was just restarting the second I tried to execute it. Oops.

Edit 2: The djinn work for me for the most part, except for the fact that the graphic always changes into a Venus djinni for some reason. Should be good to go if I can fix that. It may also be a compatibility/version issue though; could you please tell me what it says at x080000A0 (in actual ASCII/text)?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 03, February, 2016, 11:08:34 PM
Quote
could you please tell me what it says at x080000A0 (in actual ASCII/text)?
Golden_Sun_AAGSE01

also: about 50% revive. thanks for the pointers, they allowed me to understand the whole thing. your fix works flawlessly from a gameplay perspective. But it plays the wrong sound, so i'll try tinkering with the original revive (i'll try with my original plan of squeezing a LSR to the HP somewhere) and see how that works.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Salanewt on 03, February, 2016, 11:41:16 PM
Awesome, thanks; same as my version.

Revive: Huh, but I'm happy to help anyway. Hopefully the pointers help you fix it 100% (I thought it was the right sound, but I guess I heard wrong)!


As for what I am experiencing with the Mars revive, it looks like I removed a certain instruction without thinking to fix it somehow; this results in the Djinni graphic reverting back to Venus. Otherwise, everything seems to be working right now. I have to shift some things around, but all I need to do is add another instruction somehow and we should be good to go.


Edit: This is what I get.

(http://i.imgur.com/UFIHhL9.png?1)

Download below; could you please test it for me and tell me if it works for you?



Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 03, February, 2016, 11:58:00 PM
Guess what? Everything works flawlessly by combining your solution with mine! :P

I replaced in the 100% revive function the mov r0, r10 with the ASR to the HP and the STRH that followed with a branch to the mov r0, r10 of the revive 50% function in order to regain the instructions lost; then applied your change so that everything links back to the original function... et voilà! Mission accomplished! Thanks, man!

Why it takes FIVE instructions (in the 50% revive) to accomplish the same thing i did with a single ASR is (and will gladly remain) a mistery.

Eagerly waiting for the animations now! :D


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Salanewt on 04, February, 2016, 12:03:16 AM
Sweet, it worked! Happy to help. Not quite sure why 50% uses five instructions, though it could be for rounding up in the event that max HP is an odd number? Ah well.


As for the animations, they are in my previous post! I never got the Missingno thing to happen, but at the same time I may have made a tweak when you originally pointed that out and forgot about said tweak. The new patch should work as intended, and will be added to the Downloads section once you give me the green light to do so.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 04, February, 2016, 12:06:13 AM
As for the animations, they are in my previous post! I never got the Missingno thing to happen, but at the same time I may have made a tweak when you originally pointed that out and forgot about said tweak. The new patch should work as intended, and will be added to the Downloads section once you give me the green light to do so.
I'll test it as soon as I hard code the 50% Revive into my 2 GS1 ROMs. At worst it's gonna be tomorrow, since it's already 1 AM here.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Salanewt on 04, February, 2016, 12:11:25 AM
Sounds good, no rush! I guess in the mean time, I can take a quick look at Dreamtide to see if I can do something fun with that. And then I will probably check out a different animation, if going back to my "one animation a day" thing I was doing a while back.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 04, February, 2016, 12:34:24 AM
Could you please test Water of Life? It crashes terribly on my ROM. Everything else works BTW.
I also tried to switch the item's ability to Revive: same result.
Strangely enough, with the old patch (http://forum.goldensunhacking.net/index.php?topic=2612.msg45161#msg45161) it works.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Salanewt on 04, February, 2016, 12:43:35 AM
HUH. I have absolutely no idea why that would be, but it crashes in my version as well. Which is really weird because it's set to a valid animation. I may have to investigate again later because it just doesn't make any sense to me right now. Plus I like where this wave research for GS2 is going.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 04, February, 2016, 12:59:21 AM
At least with the old patch it works... though i don't know if it can be of any help. Also it's not just WoL. I tried hacking revive onto the Gaia Blade and the result is the same. My guess is that it's item related. Maybe the ability if used from items uses a different pointer or has some preliminary code?

Also... OH CRAP! I just noticed i never gave Mountain Water an animation! Lol

EDIT: in TLA it's even worse! Oh well, I've already fixed them so they will come up in the next release. Probably together with the patch for GS1.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Salanewt on 04, February, 2016, 01:28:54 AM
Hm... Well, one change I made to fix the djinni thing was to remove a couple instructions that use r9. So that may be it. Means it may be even more annoying to fix, but I will give it a shot later.

Item animation: Haha, nice work there! :P


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 04, February, 2016, 01:36:28 AM
Hm... Well, one change I made to fix the djinni thing was to remove a couple instructions that use r9. So that may be it. Means it may be even more annoying to fix, but I will give it a shot later.
God I don't think i'll ever find enough courage to ask you for help again after this one haha

Quote
Item animation: Haha, nice work there! :P
I know, right! But... as an apology I've improved the animations of the other healing items. They now scale with power.

EDIT: Wow 4 users logged in and watching this thread right now. Is it record?

(http://i.imgur.com/Rjg9nBV.png)


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Chronotakular on 04, February, 2016, 01:40:25 AM
Hey-o! I haven't gotten like any further in your mod. Been busy and, well, quite frankly I'm getting my @#$ kicked when I do boot it up. Haha.

Though, I have noticed something. Soft-resetting is... weird. It's a bit slow and slightly glitchy. It's not a HUGE deal, because it still works, I'd just thought I'd at least make you aware of it.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Salanewt on 04, February, 2016, 01:42:29 AM
Oh gosh, no need to be afraid! I'm definitely happy to help. If it's any consolation, it should be a pretty easy fix provided I can find the space for it; otherwise I can simply use a couple branches and move the section elsewhere in the ROM.

4 people: Nice!


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 04, February, 2016, 01:51:17 AM
Chrono: Just tried... Happens to me too. The Tile Viewer screen appears for a brief moment. It happens on a clean rom as well tough.

Squirtle: about moving... don't know where you want to move it but maybe you should try on a patched rom. just to be sure it doesn't overlap with anything.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Salanewt on 04, February, 2016, 01:54:03 AM
That's the plan. Or at the very least, to do it on a clean ROM using yours as reference. Ideally I can also upload this as a public patch in the Downloads section, but otherwise... yeah.


Soft-reset: Could be an emulator issue rather than ROM.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Chronotakular on 04, February, 2016, 02:00:44 AM
Soft-reset: Could be an emulator issue rather than ROM.

Ah, my initial thought as well. The problem persists on two different emulators, though.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 04, February, 2016, 06:06:31 PM
A few changes are coming with the next release:

Animations fixes for Mountain Water in both games and Spirit Ring, Fairy Ring, Unicorn Ring in TLA
Animation tweaks for Nut, Vial, Potion, Hermes' Water, Psy Cristal: the animations scale with power instead of one for everything.

Nerfed most base damage samurai spells cause he's supposed to be the worst caster of all the 4 tri-elemental that belong to Isaac/Garet/Felix. Skull Splitter was buffed to +70 damage.
Duelist lost Rockfall for Punji and gained +5% PP at the cost of -10% Luck.
Warden gained Break.
Counselor lost 5% PP for 5% Agility.

Obviously the 50% Revive in TBS is also in.
Everything will be released when I have the Raise animation in TBS.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 05, February, 2016, 05:55:11 AM
Hey Cal; for what it's worth, seeing as so many spells got changed over the course of the patch, could you add spell info on the Google doc with the class changes?

Edit: Your answer is fair.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 05, February, 2016, 04:06:00 PM
Hmm... I don't really think it's worth it. I always list in the changelog which spells got tweaked and everyone can easily check them with the editor. The class chart exists because IMO it's very important that they can be easily compared plus there's the fact that the editor displays the stat multipliers doubled.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 06, February, 2016, 01:56:48 AM
@Samurai Nerf:  By lowering PP, or did you nerf the spells themselves? 


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 06, February, 2016, 01:59:18 AM
Spells. Stats remain unchanged since his pp multiplier is already quite low


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 06, February, 2016, 04:24:06 AM
Got it. Thanks for clearing that up.

...Come to think of it, I wonder why other tri-element classes didn't get unique spells like the Samurai and Ninja lines did?  In vanilla, I mean.  It'd have been a cool way to add flavor and distinguish them a bit more, you know?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 06, February, 2016, 01:55:26 PM
Eh... most likely laziness of the developers again. Just like how we didn't get the 4th tri-elemental or the copy paste of the classes from GS to TLA, disregarding Jenna and Piers.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 06, February, 2016, 02:34:53 PM
Probably... it is a shame, though.  I'd have loved to have seen what those other classes could have done.  I mean, imagine if paladin had a unique psynergy instead of just Cutting Edge/Plume Edge.  I'd love to have seen what that looked like.  And what if the Ranger/Bard line had more melodic-based spells?  That'd be an interesting take, IMO.  Ah well - a girl can dream, I guess.  And hey, that's what the modding community is for, eh?  One of these days, we'll have one of these projects like OpenGS pull through and we'll be able to add the stuff we wanted that GS proper just couldn't accommodate.  That'll be a fun day.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Salanewt on 06, February, 2016, 10:02:15 PM
BTW, I'm totally fine with the set of animations I've chosen (yes I tried the new one that comes with your patch)... the only thing that bugs me is that only Watery Grave acts like a proper multi target psy. So... what i hypothetically need is for Dreamtide and Raging Flood to act like Watery Grave (= the animation hits EVERY targeted enemy and not only the leftmost one).

I still remember most of the conversation regarding waves and stuff (both in the topic and the chatbox), but I figure I should mention that Dreamtide and Watery Grave share a lot of the same base code. Raging Flood is pretty unrelated to them though, so the goal is to add a third tier to Dreamtide/Watery Grave and amend the targeting issue. The targeting solution may simply be a branch in the end, not sure yet.

A downside is that the animation is 3D, which I have less experience with compared to other animations. It may take some time to figure it out for that reason alone.

I also haven't forgotten Mars revive, but for now it and the wave fix will have to wait a bit. I have some schoolwork to do first!


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 07, February, 2016, 01:13:24 AM
Got it. Too bad I'm really useless at animations... I know absolutely nothing about them. Do you happen to have some sort of documentation that could help me learn at least the basics about them?

EDIT: Ok... despite being a total greenhorn, by studying your 4 element revive patch i figured out that the palette for Revive is determined at 080cf344, by storing a value into r0. 93 is the venus palette, 91 is mercury and 8D (the one i want) is mars. let's see how far i can go with this.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Salanewt on 07, February, 2016, 02:56:22 AM
Yup! If it helps, assigned palettes go by IDs in the data browser (as seen in the editor). A lot of graphics do too, but keep in mind that the editor can't display certain things that may be commonly used by animations.

While we're on the subject of palettes though, I currently know of four ways that they are set:
- Graphic-based, where the palette is loaded with the graphic(s);
- Element, where the palette is based on element rather than the graphic (an either/or condition with the previous method);
- ID, with IDs seen in the data browser (this is manually set using a different function);
- Manually set (similar to ID, but without using IDs);

The "manually set" option is only utilized by four(?) animations if I recall correctly, including Bind and the other two/three rainbow ones (Bind/seal strike, Shining Star, and Lull in GS2). It's normally set up in a loop so the colour changes every time that portion of the code is executed, but the looping part is optional. It's a pretty sweet way to get palettes that are absent from the data files, with the the downside of it being harder to control highlights/shading like you can with actual data palettes/IDs.


Edit: I have limited documentation, unfortunately. One file I am working with documents certain variables and other notable instructions in certain animations. I think I have another more precise one somewhere... can't remember right now.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 07, February, 2016, 03:01:43 AM
I'm testing right now to see if a trick i devised works. if Dew doesn't screw up, I did it.

EDIT: I. FREAKING. DID. IT.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Salanewt on 07, February, 2016, 03:08:16 AM
Nice! What did you do again?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 07, February, 2016, 03:19:18 AM
Changed this
(http://i.imgur.com/BhLNzKt.png)
to this
(http://i.imgur.com/wtsnMMa.png)
The original is pretty straightforward. if r7=0 then palette = venus else palette = mercury
In mine, it loads the ability argument into r0 with the first 2 istructions, then it gets doubled it and subtracted from #0x93. This way, if the argument was 0, you get 93 (venus). If the argument was 1 you get 91 (mercury), with 2 you get 8F (jupiter) and with 3 you get 8D (mars). Things should start going bad from 4 onwards but i don't really care since i'm the one setting the argument :P

It works with everything, from items to djinn... i can even make jupiter reviving djinn with this.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Salanewt on 07, February, 2016, 03:25:50 AM
Oh hey, nice work! I don't know why I never thought of it, but you came up with a pretty solid solution for this. :D

Do you still need my help for anything, or are you good to go now?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 07, February, 2016, 03:28:59 AM
I'm good now, thanks. I'll probably incorporate your wave thing when it's done but the 50% revive and the mars revive were the most important by a large margin.

Patches will be released tomorrow. I'm going to bed now. :P


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Salanewt on 07, February, 2016, 03:34:25 AM
Okay, cool. My apologies for not getting those other things 100% right, but I was happy to help regardless.

Good night!


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 07, February, 2016, 01:43:57 PM
No problem at all. After all I only figured it out by checking your first attempt, so thanks a lot!

BTW, since i'm already at it, might as well try fixing a few others, like Impact and Iron :P


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 07, February, 2016, 03:38:51 PM
Hey Cal, noticed you pushed back the Ragnarok/Heat Wave/Diamond Dust upgrade to 8 djinn per (Ele level 13 instead of 11). Was that intentional? I mean, it'll probably do a lot for balance in TLA, but I just wanted to make sure it was on purpose.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 07, February, 2016, 03:46:43 PM
Actually it's been like this from the very first release and you even already asked me about this IIRC :P

BTW... making a jupiter and venus impact in TLA is gonna be a pain. There's a single function that is called by Impact, Guard, Veil, Ward, Granite, Flash, Breeze and maaany more.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 07, February, 2016, 04:25:27 PM
Oh ._.

I guess it's been a while. The changes you've made have looked good btw. Taking a leap and putting something like the Fury in was well executed.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 07, February, 2016, 05:14:17 PM
Thanks, Varden ;)

@Squirtle: I think I've figured out how to deal with Impact in TLA. There's only a thing I don't know: the address where the ability is stored in the RAM. I need that to grab the element of the ability and change palette according to that. Do you happen to know it?

Also... Iron is a total mistery instead. Apparently, it loads the correct palette (#156=venus) but for some reason it turns white halfway.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Salanewt on 07, February, 2016, 05:16:41 PM
Lol, yeah. The buffs and heals are pretty massive functions full of branch groups and such. It may not be a bad idea to make a couple of them element-specific actually. Or even to check out debuffs first. While I don't really have notes on the buff function yet, I do have a lot of the branches for the healing one (GS2) should you want anything...

Actually, I'll dump what I have just in case you want to take a look at anything. I only have about seven animation functions in here so far (I think Star Mine and one or two others may be in a different document I have to hunt down) and a couple are very incomplete, but you never know if something may come in handy. Some points/addresses may also be a bit off, being based purely on observation or even hypothesis. Whatever.

Random Animation Research

08145DF8 - Bind
08145E7C - Graphic/animation width
08145EA4 - Palette cycle blur control? (0-4, with 3 being normal and the others changing how the blur/cycle works with weird results)
08145ED2 - Horizontal render limit
08145ED6 - Sound effect #1
08145F0A - Delay before target's animation changes
08145F0E - Sound effect #2 (target damage)
08145F14 - Palette cycle control #1 (red and cyan)
08145F16 - Palette cycle control #2 (green and purple)
*081496C8: r0 is essentially a counter that is used to do the cycle; it increments every time this portion is executed
...
08146250 - Palette cycling? (10D-112 affect the background, but changing it doesn't affect the animation itself?)
08146254 - Blur thickness #1 (larger numbers lessen the blur)
0814625C - Blur thickness #2 (Ditto)
08146268 -
...

0814EF44 - Healing
0814EF72 - x0D (Iris?) check; not equal
...
0814EF88 - Djinni check (x01 = djinni; not equal)
0814EF8E - x06 (Psy Crystal) check; equal
0814EF92 - x02 (Cure) check; equal
0814EF96 - x07 (Salt) check; not equal
...
0814EFAA - x06 (Psy Crystal) check; equal
0814EFAE - x00 (Ply) check; equal
0814EFB2 - x08 (Spring) check; equal
0814EFB6 - x09 (Breath) check; equal
0814EFBA - x0A (Ether) check; not equal
...
0814EFEE - x00 (Ply) check; equal
0814EFF2 - x08 (Spring) check; equal
0814EFF6 - x09 (Breath) check; not equal
...
*Palette check 1 (blue)*
0814F082 - x01 (Wish) check; less than/equal
0814F086 - x03 (Cure Poison) check; equal
0814F08A - x04 (Restore) check; equal
0814F08E - x05 (Tonic) check; equal
0814F092 - x08 (Spring) check; equal
0814F096 - x0C (Eddy) check; not equal
*Palette check 2 (purple)*
0814F0AE - [value -x09] (Breath & Ether) check; if higher than x01
*Palette check 3 (red)*
0814F0B6 - x06 (Psy Crystal) check; equal
0814F0BA - x0B (Aura) check; equal
0814F0BE - x0D (Iris?) check; not equal
*Palette 3 (gold)*
*Holographic djinn checks*
0814F0E2 - x06 (Psy Crystal) check; not equal
0814F0EA - x02 (Cure) check; equal
0814F0EE - x07 (Salt) check; not equal
0814F0FA - [value -x09] (Breath & Ether) check; if higher than x01
0814F106 - x06 (Psy Crystal) check; equal
0814F10A - x0B (Aura) check; equal
0814F10E - x0D (Iris?) check; not equal
0814F116 - x02 (Cure) check; equal
0814F11A - x07 (Salt) check; not equal
0814F126 - [value -x09] (Breath & Ether) check; if higher than x01
...
0814F156 - x00 (Ply) check; equal
0814F15A - x06 (Psy Crystal) check; equal
0814F15E - x08 (Spring) check; equal
0814F162 - x09 (Breath) check; equal
0814F166 - x0A (Ether) check; not equal
...
0814F1AE - x09 (Breath) check; not equal
0814F1B8 - x08 (Spring) check; not equal
0814F1C4 - x07 (Salt) check; not equal (not related to previous two checks; comes after previous set of checks)
0814F1CC - (Salt) particle spread
0814F1D4 - (Salt) particle origin height
0814F1E6 - (Salt) particle curve/direction control #1
0814F1F0 - (Salt) particle speed/velocity
0814F204 - (Salt) particle curve/direction control #2
0814F220 - x0C (Eddy) check; not equal



081665A4 - Ragnarok (*Missed: End particle size, caster animation, floor render height, motion blur...?*)
08166618 - Transparency
08166628 - X-coordinate?
081666D6 - Particle spiral speed
081666E2 - Particle spiral spread
08166706 - Particle spiral Z-coordinate
08166710 - Spiral rotation speed
08166734 - Spiral particle size
0816674A - Blast radius
0816678A - Sound effect #1
081667AA - Sound effect #2
081667B6 - Sound effect #3 (target damage)
081667BE - Delay before graphic vanishes (will eventually burrow entirely underground if set high enough)
081667C6 - Sword starting radian/angle? (affects starting position before it approaches target; burrowing motion unaffected)
08166824 - Sword X-coordinate on landing (burrowing coordinate(s) come later)
08166826 - Sword Z-coordinate (relative to ground)
0816682A - Sword Y-coordinate (flat, relative to overall display)
08166888 - Screen shake severity (universal)
0816699C - Sword graphic
081669A0 - Blast graphic
081669A4 - Particle graphic
081669B4 - Palette transition
08166A0C - Particle count
08166A7A - End particle amount
08166A92 - Screen shake horizontal severity
08166A94 - Screen shake vertical severity
08166AAC - FPS control (length of delays between each frame)
08166AB2 - Speed control (speed that each frame plays)
08166AB8 - Animation length
08166AE8 - *End of animation*
08166AEE - Particle burst angling



0816AEEC - Dreamtide/Watery Grave
0816AF18 - Tier check (Dreamtide; purpose currently unknown)
0816AF86 - Palette/element control
0816AF8C - Related to texture layering/placement?
0816AF9C - Dreamtide spiral graphic stuff
0816AFAE - Tier check (Watery Grave)
0816AFC4 - Loop/counter limit
0816AFD4 - Watery Grave foam transparency (master)
0816AFD6 - Watery Grave foam transparency (2?)
0816B000 - Wave control 1(severity/motion?)
0816B002 - Wave control 2(angling?)
0816B004 - Wave control 3(texture layering?)
0816B014 - Wave control 4(?)
0816B016 - Wave control 5(triangulation?)
0816B03E - Wave triangle control? [change argument to x12 to see angling triangle, normally invisible?]

0816B044 - Wave movement?
0816B04E - Wave length 1 (target side first, longer means closer/further behind caster)
0816B05E - Wave outer edge control(?)
0816B06C - Wave length 2
...
0816B0E8 - Duration of Dreamtide (default x30)
0816B0F0 - Duration of non-Dreamtide (default x51)
0816B126 - Texture distortion severity?
0816B134 - Camera rotation limit
0816B146 - Camera rotation speed

0816B166 - Tier check (Dreamtide)
0816B16C - Delay before Dreamtide makes contact
0816B170 - Dreamtide sound effect
0816B176 - Target control (fixes affected target to opponent side); branch to x0816B20A to have multi-target, but need to resolve palette swap issue
0816B17E - Dreamtide contact launch height
0816B194 - Target palette swap
...
0816B1B0 - Delay before initial contact
0816B1B4 - Watery Grave+ sound effect 1
0816B1BA - Target control? (1a)
0816B1BC - Target control? (1b - x00 to affect all enemies, x01 to affect left-most)
0816B1CC - Special argument? (x00 is the default, but x10 pushes enemies back slightly)
0816B1D8 - Target palette swap
0816B1E4 - Target control?
0816B1FA - Screen shake severity/duration
0816B200 - Delay before end
0816B204 - Watery Grave+ sound effect 2 (damage)
0816B218 - Watery Grave+ contact launch height
0816B224 - Target control?
...
0816B260 - Tier check (Dreamtide)
...
0816B284 - Water Texture (and Dreamtide/x02 palette)
0816B288 - Dreamtide spiral graphic?
0816B28C - Watery Grave foam (blast) graphic
0816B290 - Watery Grave palette
0816B2A4 - ???
...
0816B2C4 -
0816B2C8 - Watery Grave+ fadeout transparency?
...
0816B2DE - Transparency/layering flag?
0816B2E4 - Tier check (Dreamtide)
*0816B2E8 - Dreamtide
0816B2F6 - Dreamtide max height (3D)
0816B2FE - Final wave height (?)
*0816B30E - Watery Grave+
0816B31E - Watery Grave+ max height (3D)
0816B324 - Final wave height (?)
*Modeling/animation stuff*

0816B30E

0816B686 - ???

Observations:
x0, x2: Shared palette, spiral graphic, contact
x1, x2: Shared size/flow, target interaction
x1 (Watery Grave) has an additional palette/blending control?
All waves have a similar motion, but x0 has different angling and speed/duration?



0816D3D8 - Stone Justice
0816D414 - Palette/element control
0816D41C - Transparency (as in actual texture background transparency)?
0816D42C - Motion blur flag; x01 is off, other values are on
0816D438 - Horizontal scaling
0816D43C - ???
0816D440 - Graphic
0816D49C - Sound effect #1
0816D4A8 - Sound effect #2



08170DAC - Void Beam (*Missed: Circle creation... ?*)
08170EE4 - Starting transparency
08170F04 - Palette (x0128 for pink)
08170F82 - Sound effect #1
08170FAA - Camera rotation limit
08171008 - Finishing transparency
08171014 - Pre-draw camera rotation (speed/velocity?)
08171018 - Post-draw camera rotation (speed/velocity?)
08171024 - Sprite scaling (camera pan? doesn't scale background though)
08171080 - Glyph draw line/triangle count?
0817108E - Glyph Z-coordinate
081710B6 - Triangulation variable 1?
081710F2 - Triangulation variable 2?
08171106 - Vertical line angling
08171124 - Horizontal line angling
0817114C - Line width
0817114E - Line blur? (combines with previous value)
08171244 - Glyph distance from caster
...

Caledor: As far as I know, it should more or less be like setting a flag in the actual function (0/1, where one of those uses a data palette and the other uses element). I can take a quick look if you give me the ROM address for the animation.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 07, February, 2016, 05:20:05 PM
Impact is 0814FA08. Thanks, man!


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Salanewt on 07, February, 2016, 05:30:34 PM
Cool, thanks. Just want to say right now that it looks like animation argument is stored in r11 and then loaded from it with every check. I shall get back to you in a bit on how to make certain animations element-specific.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 07, February, 2016, 05:37:18 PM
r11? i thought it contained the value of r1 that is applied at the very beginning, which is #0 for the mars impact. BTW i think you misunderstood me. What i need is the address of the ability being cast inside the RAM. Basically the equivalent of #03007DC8 that i used for the mars revive fix. In that case I used that + #0x18 to grab the argument, now i want to grab the element from there.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Salanewt on 07, February, 2016, 05:50:57 PM
Well yeah, but r1 is stored in r11 near the start of the function.

As for grabbing the element, are you certain you need to do it that way? I mean, I can take a quick look, but I can't recall many animations that need RAM access just for palette. I also understood, lol; just want to see if there's an easier way with the buffs before we try that route.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 07, February, 2016, 05:57:43 PM
Well yeah, but r1 is stored in r11 near the start of the function.
Yup, I know, but that isn't relevant to me, cause it's still gonna be #00... be it Forge, Impact or Demon Spear.
What I want to do is replace the instruction that determines the palette for impact (which is at #0814fc7a) with a jump somewhere (i've already found the space), and then manage from there... loading the element and setting the palette based on that. You think there's an easier way?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Salanewt on 07, February, 2016, 06:42:47 PM
Easier way: Just checking for that now. I know that many other animations have a sort of "flag" that is set when a graphic is loaded, which decides whether the animation (or at least a part of it) will use the palette for said graphic or instead default to elemental palettes. What is interesting about the buffs so far though is that they seem to have "djinni identifiers" which decide the initial particle palette effect and holographic djinni (there are at least 8 effects that I can find?). Which I am not at all used to and, while interesting, also wonder what this means for finding an easier fix. Plus for the fact that both palette and holographic are selected at the same time; this means the RAM solution may be necessary for this code unless I am overlooking something.

I have to study now, but:

#02030714 - Ability ID here...
#02030718 - Element is stored here for the entirety of an animation.
#02030720 - Animation ID (argument is also stored here)


Since I don't really feel like hunting for an "easier way" right now, I figure that these should help you with your planned method. :P


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 07, February, 2016, 06:49:07 PM
Got it, thanks again!

EDIT:
(http://i.imgur.com/tnhs94q.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/WRndS7l.png)

The formula:
(http://i.imgur.com/FIxNdIV.png)

@Squirtle: Sorry to bother you again but there's something that makes absolutely no sense for me. When i call the function in the pic above via branch-link from the impact function, everything works perfectly. If I do the same thing from the dull function, at 0815054C, the game ignores it. I'm positive the game doesn't even enter inside the function at 0814FA76 because i tried placing breakpoints inside it and the game carried on as normal, plus r0 holds the same value when checked at 0815054A and at 0815054E (basically right before and right after the call). You can patch a TLA rom with the ips attached and see for yourself.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Salanewt on 07, February, 2016, 10:58:36 PM
Nice work!

Dull: Hm. I'm still studying (taking a short pre-dinner break); could you please tell me where you tried to set up the function call (maybe with a screenshot)? If it's not much trouble for you that is.

If I had to guess based entirely on what you are saying, it sounds like you put the function call somewhere that is only executed under certain conditions.

Edit: Oh wait, you said where it is in your message. Oops!

Edit 2: Okay. The code immediately before your function call checks for two debuffs; Dull (x03) and purple Dull (x00). Meaning that it should only call the function for those two animations. I haven't actually tested the code yet, but is that what you were going for?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 07, February, 2016, 11:04:59 PM
Well... it replaces the very same instruction both in the impact function and the dull function: the LDR r0. so...

anyway, this is from the original ROM: http://imgur.com/X02dMae
this is from the patched one: http://imgur.com/3DskO7f

BTW, there's no hurry, you can check it when you're free obviously :D
And thanks!


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 07, February, 2016, 11:19:07 PM
Exactly. It's the same thing i did with impact: replacing the LDR that sets the palette with the function that sets it depending on the element of the ability.
Also FYI, Purple Dull is never used cause there's no preliminary function (the ones you access from the animation pointer) that sets the argument to x00. But it's not like i care... once this thing works for either x03 or x00 the other becomes completely redundant.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Salanewt on 07, February, 2016, 11:25:00 PM
I know, lol. I did the overhaul patch a while back and made it more accessible. :P

Going to very briefly test something, but it will be quick; will do more testing later if this doesn't work out.

Edit: Oh, um. So I got something weird when I changed one of the checks to Impair instead. I figure I should actually test with Dull though; could you please tell me which class(es) can add it to my spell list?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 07, February, 2016, 11:33:32 PM
just use the attached sgm file in vba.
If you can't, Sheba's base class (but with at least 4 jupiter djinn), Piers in the jupiter dual class and Ivan, Sheba and Mia's White Mage have Dull and Blunt.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Salanewt on 08, February, 2016, 12:02:31 AM
Didn't work, but thanks anyway; managed to do some light testing. Same as when I changed the checks, this happens:

(http://i.imgur.com/RmfDkYc.png)

I haven't really looked through the code to figure out why this happens yet, but this doesn't look too great. A very tiny part of me thinks that there may be an issue with the full function itself, but I doubt it.

Will check later on.

Edit: Just for clarification, this also tends to happen when an invalid palette is present. So there could be an issue with the palette somewhere. Pretty sure you also said that r0 (the palette) doesn't actually change for some reason, so that could be it as well...


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 08, February, 2016, 12:06:34 AM
Thanks a lot. it's the same thing that happens to me. r0 remains set at x1a40 instead of going through the function and changing.

Also, v1.30 for TBS and v1.30b for TLA are UP. Looks like this impact thing is gonna take a while so i went and released those two as they were yesterday after i gave Raise the mars animation.

@Varden: I was checking again the thing you asked me this morning. Actually it's 7 Djinn. In the monoelementals though it appears as if it were 8 cause they lack the 7-djinn tier. So... basically the second to last monoelemental tiers are the only ones that lost the upgraded EPA. Because in the vanilla game, the tri-elementals with 3 tiers like Paladin had Ragnarok/Cutting Edge etc at the first stage, which could be reached with 6 djinn.

@Squirtle:
I made screenshots of a step by step excecution of the BL in both Impact and Dull
Impact 1: http://i.imgur.com/No1jrwf.png
Impact 2: http://i.imgur.com/0DeYFrG.png
Impact 3: http://i.imgur.com/Q3pHXnZ.png

Dull 1: http://i.imgur.com/gcExUsX.png
Dull 2: http://i.imgur.com/uPgNJrQ.png
Dull 3: http://i.imgur.com/lYpNKNg.png

As you can see, 1 and 2 are identical for both and everything goes smoothly. BL is also preliminarily executed somehow since the LR changes. But while impact 3 actually shows that control goes to the formula i made, dull 3 shows the screw up of the LR and how the execution carries on with the following instruction as if nothing happened.

BTW, the same, identical issue happened when i tried using the BL in GS1 to fix impact there as well.

Also, I just remembered that this whole issue with branch link goes a looooong way back... Since the implementation of the PP multiplier. This is me at page THREE of this thread:

Quote
You guys did it! Thanks to your efforts the multiplier is practically DONE!
The only thing that somehow bugs me is that the division function didn't do anything but I don't really care cause I just replaced it with a 10-bit lsr. Now on to the balance of summons and djinns!

I think the same thing happened back then. my bl to 08002054, which is the division function, didn't do a thing (i clearly remember r0 not changing) so i went with the simpler and flawless 10-bit lsr. I'm actually starting to wonder why it worked for impact.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Salanewt on 08, February, 2016, 11:16:54 PM
Okay! I just noticed (I never actually looked at the hex before, please don't judge me :P); you have the BL instruction set up wrong. The second part of the instruction has to be xF800 or higher. Should be a super easy fix if you change it to xFA93.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 08, February, 2016, 11:21:21 PM
OMG It's true! Thanks a lot man!

Also... Why?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Salanewt on 08, February, 2016, 11:25:47 PM
Can't remember why, lol. Probably the way the assembly format was designed; could be so it can set the actual branching address? Not sure.

Happy to help!


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 09, February, 2016, 01:58:45 AM
Just wanted to say that every animation that displays Attack, Defense or Resistance changes (both increase and reduction) now is elemental-dependant in TLA.
This fixes, among others: Impact, Demon Spear, Dull, Acid, Sour and a few unleashes like Storm Brand's Hurricane.

Iron is the most notable exception. Probably i'll never figure out why it turns white halfway.

Now... I'll try to replicate it into GS1 as well.

EDIT: GS1 done too... it was a lot easier since I had to fix only impact.
However, i don't feel like releasing only this... So i'll wait until there's more content.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Salanewt on 10, February, 2016, 12:35:42 AM
I haven't investigated Iron yet, but I get the feeling that it and normal Steam have their own conditional branches that allow them to blend to other palettes. In fact, it probably works a lot like the 101 unleashes.

Also, nice work!


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 10, February, 2016, 01:35:39 AM
Thanks. ;)

Also, I thought the same thing about iron... IMO it's just a matter of skipping a certain portion of the code. I even thought of going through the whole thing and trying to figure it out via trial-error... but I wanted to take a little break from hacking after fixing impact. I feel like i've never stopped since i started this thread...

Yesterday I noticed the "more stat" button on the forum home page and looking at the numbers there made me think "maybe I overdid it..." LOL


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Chronotakular on 10, February, 2016, 08:35:24 AM
I'm about to head to Lemuria!

Here are some things I've noticed that are pretty low priority, since they really don't have a huge effect on the game as a whole, like the game is still very playable.

  • The event with Feizhi at Champa didn't occur this time, even though I used the same password that I did last time (though, that was a while ago..), and it happened last time. It's possible this is some weird one time freak glitch, I'll have to type in the password for my data again and see if I can get the event to trigger. Though I never really used the Golden Ring so I don't care too much. The Golden Boots event occurred fine, and I know the Colosso event will occur because of the NPC that warns you about it earlier in the game, so I'm not sure what happened here. Edit: Updated. No change. Someone else should probably confirm this though. It's possible that password I generated a year ago (I have screenshots, not the battery file) may have some last minute running around for events, and I never updated the screenshots.
  • Sometimes, Felix tends to leave a battle as he entered the previous room. ie. I enter a room from falling. After a battle in the same room, Felix will fall in place. This also very rarely happens when entering and exiting the next room, but not as frequently.
  • Not a bug per-say, but I know you've changed text in the past(ie. Susa talking about the Murakimo.)(it's possible that the game does this by itself, but I'm assuming otherwise.)There is a typo in an event in Champa after you defeat the Salamander Boss, Chucha says "they paid back everthing", or something along those lines. Might be more work than it's worth to fix, however.

Anyways, I'll keep on trucking; slowly but surely.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 10, February, 2016, 11:15:51 AM
There's not much I can say about the first 2. The first only needs to be tested (but i need to find the save file for it), about the second... I really have no idea. It could be even like that from the original game... either way, I'm clueless.

About the third: you guessed right, I had to manually change Cloud Brand to Murakumo. Also, fixing those typos is a total joke since the text editor has a search function. I'm fixing it as I write this post.

BTW, please keep reporting any dialogue-related mistakes... not just typos... even a sentence that just doesn't make sense to you for whatever reason is worth reporting (I remember the dialogue between Garet and his little brother - when the party returns back to Vale to find Dora's sick in GS1 - made no sense whatsoever in the Italian ROM).
I won't fix those by myself cause i'll never play the english ROM, but if you spot something and tell me, i will ;)


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 10, February, 2016, 12:51:02 PM
?  I thought the cloud brand was the Kusanagi?  Is it really Murakumo in japan?  If so, that does leave it open in GS4 for it to have a power up of sorts...


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 10, February, 2016, 01:01:20 PM
Actually, Ama no Murakumo and Kusanagi no Tsurugi are one and the same. The japanese name for the Cloud Brand is "amanokumo", so i went with Murakumo. Thinking about it, "kumo" usually means "cloud" so i can kinda see where the english name comes from. I still think the translator(s) failed pretty hard on this one BTW.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: JamietheFlameUser on 10, February, 2016, 01:07:37 PM
  • Sometimes, Felix tends to leave a battle as he entered the previous room. ie. I enter a room from falling. After a battle in the same room, Felix will fall in place. This also very rarely happens when entering and exiting the next room, but not as frequently.
This glitch existed in the original game, I believe. It's most noticeable in Gaia Rock.[/list]


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Chronotakular on 10, February, 2016, 09:03:13 PM
There's not much I can say about the first 2. The first only needs to be tested (but i need to find the save file for it), about the second... I really have no idea. It could be even like that from the original game... either way, I'm clueless.

More or less what I figured, just thought they were worth reporting.

About the third: you guessed right, I had to manually change Cloud Brand to Murakumo. Also, fixing those typos is a total joke since the text editor has a search function. I'm fixing it as I write this post.

Well that's good to know. Haha.

BTW, please keep reporting any dialogue-related mistakes... not just typos... even a sentence that just doesn't make sense to you for whatever reason is worth reporting (I remember the dialogue between Garet and his little brother - when the party returns back to Vale to find Dora's sick in GS1 - made no sense whatsoever in the Italian ROM).
I won't fix those by myself cause i'll never play the english ROM, but if you spot something and tell me, i will ;)

To be honest, I haven't been paying attention to the dialogue too much, but I will for sure do this from now on. My last play through, which was somewhat recently, seemed okay. Though I didn't notice the typo so who knows. But I'll closely pay attention to the dialogue from now on.

This glitch existed in the original game, I believe. It's most noticeable in Gaia Rock.

Ah, strange. I never came across this in the original game, even after all those years of playing it. I noticed once or twice recently in Ankhol Ruins though. Good to know.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 11, February, 2016, 01:43:59 AM
Oh, I know they're the same - the Murakumo became the Kusanagi, thus my idea that it could have a quest that gives it a power up and name change.  Still, nice to see that it was actually the Murakumo in the JP game - kind of an interesting insight, considering before I had thought it was called Kusanagi in japan based on what the wiki says.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 12, February, 2016, 12:05:38 AM
To be honest, I haven't been paying attention to the dialogue too much, but I will for sure do this from now on. My last play through, which was somewhat recently, seemed okay. Though I didn't notice the typo so who knows. But I'll closely pay attention to the dialogue from now on.
Thanks ;)

Oh, I know they're the same - the Murakumo became the Kusanagi, thus my idea that it could have a quest that gives it a power up and name change.  Still, nice to see that it was actually the Murakumo in the JP game - kind of an interesting insight, considering before I had thought it was called Kusanagi in japan based on what the wiki says.
Hmm... it's not like it became... it just changed name due to a later legend. Still... the power up is an option, especially if Himi's brother joins the fray.

BTW the wiki is fixed now :P

v1.31 for both games is UP!


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Salanewt on 12, February, 2016, 01:59:42 AM
Not sure if you want a fix right this instant since I'm working on changing Dreamtide and Watery Grave into a whole line, but...

0816B4E6 - You can remove Dreamtide's swirly graphic if you change this branch (hex to xD140). Still single target because I haven't completely resolved the multi-target thing, but at least what I have now is a step up from what it is now. I'm about to look for the instruction(s) that set(s) the water's height next, so I can let you know what I find shortly enough if you want.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 12, February, 2016, 03:11:11 AM
Thanks, I'll certainly check it.
Also, no need to hurry at all, but let me know when you resolve the multi target thing, that one's the most important ;)


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Salanewt on 12, February, 2016, 05:35:31 AM
Okay. So, about that...

I studied it and compared the visual effect to Watery Grave+, and it looks like the palette swap issue isn't much of an error so much as it is a timing thing. Basically, an enemy will remain white until the game registers that they have taken damage. In which case they turn back to normal. The reason why I thought it was an error before was because it happens so fast and the Watery Grave+ animation partially obscures the targets, making it a little harder to notice at a glance.

Need to double check the code later, but this basically means that the issue has been solved.
Now all I want to do for the actual tier patch is to play around with the code so Dreamtide and the old Watery Grave are smaller while keeping the new Watery Grave about the same as it is now (I say "old and new" because I effectively switched Watery Grave with the unused/melded third variant).

Edit: Sort of. Hard to explain, but I forgot that the other targets will switch back before their damage is calculated. So, um... Low priority fix, but otherwise the plan is to work on getting a second tier (Wave is first, Watery Grave is third). Need to toy around with the code some more, but so far I like where things are going.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 12, February, 2016, 08:36:10 PM
Wait a min i think i didn't get what you want to do with the 3 waves. are you trying to create a "perfect" set of spells from what we already have? Perfect as in looks and everything?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Salanewt on 12, February, 2016, 09:29:13 PM
More or less, yeah. Well, 90-95% at least. Progress is going great so far too; tiers 1 and 3 are mostly done, but I also want to tweak the code a bit more for the second tier and maybe do the targeting & sound effect section from scratch so each tier has its own code. That may even fix the palette swap thing, assuming a fix is needed. I even removed Dreamtide's spiral effect code, which should give me the room to do this within the wave function.

Not sure if you have seen it, but this is what I had for tier 1 (previously Dreamtide) before I lowered the water level a bit (audio issues are from the video itself, not the ROM):

gCF72oJug_k

But first, schoolwork; need to take a bunch of notes down so I can start working on a smaller paper.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 12, February, 2016, 11:10:00 PM
This is soo great... I think I'll make a release for this thing alone when it's done.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Salanewt on 12, February, 2016, 11:50:08 PM
Oh wow, that'll be pretty neat! In all honesty, there's always a small part of me that is uncertain about some of the decisions I make when it comes to these kinds of patches. It's a bit of a confidence booster to read something like your post, lol. :D

Still doing school stuff, but I technically get a week without any lectures or seminars now; gives me a little more free time over the weekend.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 12, February, 2016, 11:57:00 PM
Heh... I would've been perfectly fine with a fix of the targeting issue. You're doing that PLUS improving the whole thing... i'll gladly be waiting for it ;)
Keep up the good work!


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 14, February, 2016, 02:49:10 AM
Man... I'd love to see the things you could do with other animations to make them workable for spells.  Lord knows we need more wind-based animations...  Would you be able to make a geyser spell line by any chance?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Salanewt on 14, February, 2016, 03:39:41 AM
A super easy geyser spell would be to palette swap the Volcano line, but eh. There may be other alternatives that don't come to mind at the moment. I also can't really think of many other animations (in general) that would look good as spell lines after this and the Wisp line are uploaded.

Wind-based: Which sort of reminds me, I still need to double check that particle/RAM issue for the Wisp line I made a while back. That was the last thing I needed to do before considering the animation perfect.

Wave: Coming along now. I want to figure out what makes Dreamtide's water recede while not affecting the other tiers, and then I want to rework the targeting/sound effect stuff so each tier is a bit more unique. Not sure if there are any other changes I want to make at the moment.

Edit: I think I may have partially figured out the "water receding" thing. More research required though.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Chronotakular on 14, February, 2016, 04:55:12 AM
Back sooner than I thought!

Tinder is reviving for full health, I'm assuming this isn't intentional.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: JamietheFlameUser on 14, February, 2016, 06:47:32 AM
Wind-based: Which sort of reminds me, I still need to double check that particle/RAM issue for the Wisp line I made a while back. That was the last thing I needed to do before considering the animation perfect.
"Wisp" line? Haven't seen it. Got a video?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Salanewt on 14, February, 2016, 06:56:59 AM
Oh, um, this thing? I only consider it about 95% complete because the last few blasts lack the sparks that the other ones have. Not a really major thing, but as far as having a perfect animation goes... yeah.

ntThgRpYJW8

Edit: Which reminds me, Fox/Tea helped quite a bit with this one. Which was awesome.


Wave: Okay, so I found the part of the code that decides how many waves Dreamtide and Watery Grave each get (or rather, the height of the primary and secondary waves for both animations). I think I still need to find and edit some sort of angling variable before I'm comfortable with how everything above tier 1 looks. After that will be toying around with sound effects and targeting, and then finished.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 14, February, 2016, 12:11:21 PM
Back sooner than I thought!

Tinder is reviving for full health, I'm assuming this isn't intentional.

Intentional. Tinder always revived to full health, so i just leaved it like that. The reason I halved the hp restored by the most common reviving effect is to make djinn better at it. In the vanilla game you had revive, which revived to 100% hp and never failed, and quartz, which revived to 50% hp, failed 2 times out of 5 AND put you in a worse class. Guess who was almost useless? ;)

Thanks for reporting though, never know what I might have forgot :P

Wave: Okay, so I found the part of the code that decides how many waves Dreamtide and Watery Grave each get (or rather, the height of the primary and secondary waves for both animations). I think I still need to find and edit some sort of angling variable before I'm comfortable with how everything above tier 1 looks. After that will be toying around with sound effects and targeting, and then finished.
Great!


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 15, February, 2016, 01:12:23 AM
A super easy geyser spell would be to palette swap the Volcano line, but eh. There may be other alternatives that don't come to mind at the moment. I also can't really think of many other animations (in general) that would look good as spell lines after this and the Wisp line are uploaded.

Wind-based: Which sort of reminds me, I still need to double check that particle/RAM issue for the Wisp line I made a while back. That was the last thing I needed to do before considering the animation perfect.
While easy, I can't imagine it looking good.  However, if we look at abilities like Aqua Sock, Plume Edge, and Nereid, as well as any similar things out there, I'm sure we could derive something.

@Wind:  There's a a few animations in the djinn I think might be worth looking at to see if they scale, such as Gale.  I'd also like to look into the Jupiter summon (like, the one djinn summon Jupiter).  It'd be kinda cool if we could derive more wind based spells from stuff like that - certainly beats using stuff like wing beat.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Salanewt on 15, February, 2016, 01:27:22 AM
The issue with Aqua Sock is that it is one of the 101 unleashes (animations 100-200 that have an argument of 4) and has more in common with Flint, so it can't really tier unless an entirely new animation is made for it. Nereid may be similar given its summon status (normally defined by a different animation range). Plume Edge could be something, as could Gale, but both honestly seem pretty difficult to make into good looking tiering animations...

But anyway, this is probably not the topic for such discussion. :P

Wave: Still at it, but also still at schoolwork. It's going to be a pretty busy week for me as far as that goes because I have a... 16-20 page draft to write, an 8 page paper due in March, and another 20-ish page paper that I have to get started on that is due near the end of April. And I get a week of no lectures or seminars to do this with. I figure I can mostly focus on the wave line and Leaf's secret request when I have free time this week, and if all goes well with work then I may have a day or two off next weekend.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Chronotakular on 15, February, 2016, 01:54:41 AM
Intentional. Tinder always revived to full health, so i just leaved it like that. The reason I halved the hp restored by the most common reviving effect is to make djinn better at it. In the vanilla game you had revive, which revived to 100% hp and never failed, and quartz, which revived to 50% hp, failed 2 times out of 5 AND put you in a worse class. Guess who was almost useless? ;)

Thanks for reporting though, never know what I might have forgot :P

I honestly thought this might have been the case for the same reasoning, but I figured since all other revives didn't, that this one shouldn't. Good to know though. It will continue to be my go to revive usage.  :happy:


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 15, February, 2016, 05:49:33 PM
Finally started my own playtrough: just ended the prologue, got Flint and... new game again to test the adjustments made. Lol at this rate it's gonna be another year only to beat doom dragon.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Salanewt on 15, February, 2016, 06:10:44 PM
Haha, well at least you're testing them. One of the last things I want to do for Disco Sun's Balance Update (1/3) is adjust monsters and test, but I have been putting that off for months and months now. :P

Partly because of side projects where I go "oh cool, maybe Star Mine could be a good tiering animation" or the like. Still though.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 15, February, 2016, 08:01:22 PM
Well, in my case i held off from a full playthrough till now cause i wanted to play a "final" version. Basically i didn't want big changes to occur while i was playing so i could focus on the details better.
For example there were 2 issues with the enemies you fight from Vale to Vault:
1) they're very strong if fought at lv2 (the level you're most likely at by the end of the prologue) cause garet hasn't learned any psynergy yet. That is, unless you have oil drops... in which case you'll just rape them.
2) Ivan joins at lv4 and grinding up to 4 can be annoying.
I didn't want to drop Ivan's starting level like i did in TLA, so I raised the exp granted by all enemies fought between vale and vault and those in the prologue by 1 and halved the chance for amazes to drop oil drops. That's why i had to run through the prologue once again, to check how the prologue was affected by the added exp.

EDIT: Fixing GS1 dialogue: Mind Read on the sick old men at Imil reveals that Alex was Mia's (last) apprentice. But that's wrong, cause they were both studying under Mia's unseen father.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 16, February, 2016, 11:15:12 PM
If there's a way to tie their XP at the time of joining to Isaac's?  Or is that needlessly complicated?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 16, February, 2016, 11:19:26 PM
If there's a way to tie their XP at the time of joining to Isaac's?  Or is that needlessly complicated?
There isn't. The game uses only the starting level number to determine how much exp you have at the beginning. I managed to tie Jenna's XP in TLA to that of Felix and Sheba cause her solo battles are scripted.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 16, February, 2016, 11:35:27 PM
That's a shame.  It'd have been neat if we found a way to patch that.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 16, February, 2016, 11:42:10 PM
Well, with assembly technically everything is possible... but you also have to consider if the time and effort are worth it. In this case... probably not. Tinkering with exp is way easier and the result is pretty much the same.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: dive_darkness on 17, February, 2016, 12:36:30 AM
Hmm, actually you could do something like, battles before getting Ivan gives no exp, then give everyone a starting level of 2 or 3 (haven't played yet as the game's still being updated). Wouldn't that make every character have the same starting exp ? That way you cannot get OP by farming for the battle with the thieves and also have all character starting with the exact same exp.

I think it should be doable. For instance, in the Risen stars hack, no battle give exp, except the battles in Izumo's Cave and a special random enemy in Treasure Isle.

Dunno if it's doable in your hack though, nor if really useful.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 17, February, 2016, 12:44:25 AM
Hmm, actually you could do something like, battles before getting Ivan gives no exp, then give everyone a starting level of 2 or 3 (haven't played yet as the game's still being updated). Wouldn't that make every character have the same starting exp ? That way you cannot get OP by farming for the battle with the thieves and also have all character starting with the exact same exp.
It would work but Young Isaac and Garet would be at 2/3 as well and it really doesn't blend with the setting. Moreover I cannot think like "you mustn't get OP by farming before battle X" because that thing is doable only at the start of each game for 1 battle of choosing. My goal is the opposite: character Y should join at a level that is as close as possible to the average of your party while playing naturally. As things are now Ivan joins while you're halfway trough L3 and you then Isaac and Garet catch up to him while reaching the Goma Cave, before he joins permanently.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: dive_darkness on 17, February, 2016, 12:56:22 AM
Hmm, good point. I don't see young Isaac being a level 3 without having fought once in his life.
I'll play through your hack Later. Will post my thoughts on it while playing.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 17, February, 2016, 12:57:53 AM
Thanks, hope you'll like it.
I'll be waiting for your feedback ;)

EDIT:
Playthrough progress report: Healed Tret. Took a little break to fix MANY staves.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Chronotakular on 17, February, 2016, 11:04:08 PM
I'm back! Though this time these are more suggestions than anything.

First off, concerning the Caladbolg / Gillman Lords: Something should probably be changed here. I understand you want the weapon to be rare, though right now, based off my own statistics that I've been tracking, the Gillman Lords are roughly 1/17 - 1/20 encounter rate in the back of Treasure Isle, making this weapon a real grind to get. I'd personally would say up the encounter rate on Gillman Lords; though, you could also make it so the Caladbolg has a slightly better chance to drop, which is really the same solution; just a different way to go about it. Either solution would help a lot though.

Second, while Remedy was a good addition, it's worth noting that the character that now has Remedy can't heal poison outside of battle.

Back to killing Gillman Lords.



Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: dive_darkness on 18, February, 2016, 12:37:26 AM
Alright, rushed up to Bilibin.
Enemies up 'till now just force you to spam summons. Really. I cannot use isaac's pp for psynergies to keep health up, garet has too little pp, and his psynergy just doesn't hit enough to be worth it (particularly true around Bilibin cave and kolima. All characters level 7-8, best equipments possible. Never used staves up 'till now (pp bonus is too small compared to the atk loss). Went straight for the second Venus djinn. For now, Ramses is my main damage source. Also, sold the turtle boots. -5 agi isn't affordable at this moment (it's the difference between hitting first and nearly having a dead char)

Bandits: got smashed down. Only used one oil drop to test it's power. Didn't even need it, as Venus + ray does more than enough damage to beat the two small ones quickly. Once he's alone, the "big" one goes down with normal attacks quite easily. Had axes for garet and Isaac, staff for ivan. Getting a bit of money for the equipments was the longest. Getting and selling the nuts really speeds up the process here. Also farmed up to level 4 before the bandits because low money too.

And now I'm going for mercury + Kolima. I hope it won't be just "keep on spamming summons to win".

Ps: those aren't critics, just the things I thought while playing. As a good point/addition, mountain water will prove useful for long dungeons later on.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 18, February, 2016, 01:53:08 AM
@Chrono: Those are nice finds. Consider the Gillman Lord issue fixed for next release: I doubled their encounter rate. They were set up in a way that made this specific enemy very rare (1/8 chance), but i didn't know before cause i never checked them.
Anyway... just abuse the RNG when you find one. There's a 1/256 chance to drop it... factoring the chance to find gillman lords at all, on average it takes more than 1000 battles to gain it (2000 with your encounter rate).

Remedy. My bad, I completely overlooked that fact. There isn't a code for "heal all ailment" that works out of battle, so...
Plan A: make Remedy act as Cure Poison out of battle... Basically, it won't heal Haunt despite being able to do so in battle. I'm not sure it can be done though.
Plan B: move Remedy up a tier (only 9 djinn class and Angel will have it) so you can always gain Cure Poison back just by putting a single djinn on standby.
Haven't decided yet.

@Dive. Quite different from what i got. I'll try to reply to each point.
• Isaac shouldn't be on healing duty cause at LV4 he's got the best offence with Flint, Venus and Earthquake. So I gave Ivan Herbs for emergency heals since he's fast.
• I started my playthrough like 3-4 days ago so I know that summon rushing isn't needed cause i never had to use it. I mean, they're good but Djinn are also very good so i just use the normal sequence of unleash/summon. Also, don't try to rush Tret or Saturos: it's bound to backfire.
• Garet was also amazing for me: the moment he learned Blast the monsters before Vault became a lot easier to deal with. Moreover, he keeps getting better as he grows. His speed is low but has a lot more HP and Def than Isaac. And at 7 he learns Starburst, which is VERY good against everything.
• Staves are also very useful... the random unleash is just too strong.
• About money, I can guarantee that if you find and sell stuff at the beginning that is worth selling like 2-3 nuts, the first water of life and stat-increasing items like Apple, you won't EVER need to grind for them. I always managed to buy everything on the first run at EVERY shop i've been to untill now (= till Kolima).
• Turtle Boots: gave them to Ivan (and he's still wearing them). He's by far the fastest so the agility drop doesn't hurt at all, while the increased defense is very good for him.
Hope you'll find those tips useful, and thanks for reporting!


Also, due to Chrono's finds v1.32 will probably come out sooner... i'd say as soon as I fix the Remedy issue.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Chronotakular on 18, February, 2016, 05:01:32 AM
@Chrono: Those are nice finds. Consider the Gillman Lord issue fixed for next release: I doubled their encounter rate. They were set up in a way that made this specific enemy very rare (1/8 chance), but i didn't know before cause i never checked them.
Anyway... just abuse the RNG when you find one. There's a 1/256 chance to drop it... factoring the chance to find gillman lords at all, on average it takes more than 1000 battles to gain it (2000 with your encounter rate).

Cool! Always happy to help. I would have probably over looked the Remedy thing myself, to be honest. Also 2000 battles? Good lord. :sad:


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 18, February, 2016, 07:07:02 AM
@Cal Is it possible to make Remedy remove your health, revive you, and bring you back to your original health total, in one move? That'd do the same thing as its in-battle effect.

Also, don't hit staves too hard, if at all. Remember that it's a huge gamble on an unleash from your casters, who will be doing virtually no damage with a standard attack. Check DPS calculations, at least.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: dive_darkness on 18, February, 2016, 08:58:32 AM
My Isaac was on healing duty against the fire djinn forge. Otherwise, he's only healing when needed (I hardly ever use the items, as I don't like to do so.) I basically heal whenever the hp drops below 50%, which makes me heal often.
The unleashes on the staves were penumbral and electrocution. Nothing really random. Electrocution don't affect Saturos, so I just skipped it. I prefer having more atk than a very low chance to paralyze.
Unless they don't do what's written in their description ?
Yup. Mainly after Vault (water of life yay), you don't need to grind money, as just selling what you find nets you enough to max all equipments. I know. (Selling stats increasing items ? Never. I always used them right away.)
Didn't try earthquake for now. Quake did too little damage, so I thought earthquake wouldn't be that good either and didn't bother with it. Will try.
Will try also Garet's psy.

Edit: starburst is good. Earthquake is for my team right now the alternative if I don't have Ramses ready.

RE-edit: meh... Does sirens only use froth spiral ? For in one encounter with 3 of them, they only used this, which killed Ivan btw. 70 damage on him is huge. Did I mention that they're faster than all characters lv 10 ?
Which makes me ask: are you supposed to do kolima first, the mercury lighthouse ? Or are they both the same ?
Also, you nerfed granite, didn't you ?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 18, February, 2016, 12:11:14 PM
@Chrono: that's why i told you to abuse the RNG :P

@Varden: What's that? The best Remedy can do in battle is to heal Haunt... About the staves, no need to worry. All the fixes are very minor like +-a few attack points and/or price changes, and needed only for the equipment's golden rule (From the opening post: "Each piece of equipment found/bought in the game is stronger than anything (of the same type) you could find at an earlier point in the game and weaker than anything found later"). The biggest change of them all is Angelic Ankh's unleash that went from 95 BP to 100. And yes, I always consider DPS for staves. That's the only reason their unleashes can be so strong in the first place.

@Dive: by random I mean "random chance"... obviously the unleashes are the same. But being base power attacks now, they're very strong. Milky Cloud is basically a single target Plasma... at LV4, that's HUGE.
I usually sell all stat-increasing items cause at the beginning it's worth the money, then i buy them back at the end-game and carry them over to TLA.
Sirens cast Froth (25% chance), the first in line. I never had issues with them... actually, they were so underwhelming (too much Heartrender) that I gave them Prism as well. Also, Ivan at 10 should be faster than a Siren, and Isaac becomes faster than them at LV11. Unless you break the sequence and try the Lighthouse before Kolima. In that case i can see why Ivan is slower... he lacks the second Djinn that improves his class. Good luck on fighting Saturos without Breeze BTW :P. The Fur Coat you find in Kolima also helps a lot in the Lighthouse since it improves Mercury resistance.
Granite's effect is the same.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: dive_darkness on 18, February, 2016, 12:31:38 PM
I never in my whole life did Kolima before Mercury lighthouse. Even on my first playthrough. Aaaaand... Saturos kicked my @#$. I was level 12/13 depending on the character. Eruption does 110 damage on the central target (~ half isaac's max hp with two Venus djinn set). Ivan didn't survive at all.

Maybe I'll just go get the second Jupiter djinn and go back to beat saturos later. I'll still try to beat him like that. Hopefully he only act once/turn.

Met a few sirens again. Still only used froth ><

EDIT:

Saturos beaten. Basically, I just prayed for no Eruption.
I began by summoning with everyone but Isaac (healing duty since he's faster than Mia with his two djinns). Then keep spamming Ice Horn, storm ray and heat wave. Heal with Isaac and use granite when more than one char under the 100 hp mark (basically, eruption inflicts 100+, so I wanted to be safe) while healing with mia on that turn. If needed Ivan use herb/corn to boost a bit more the HP.

I had Isaac and mia level 15. (Unlocks ice horn I think. It's good against saturos)
I guess having the second wind djinn would have helped a lot.

Ps: finally a siren used sleep. Lol, that was the 11th attack I took from a siren. All the 10 before were froth.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 18, February, 2016, 01:31:43 PM
Breeze is the MVP against Saturos. For reference, usually I beat him at 12 with alt classes (isaac with mercury for Cutting Edge). First turn it's granite forge breeze and sleet, then it's normal business... attack with djinn, cutting edge and summons with Garet and Ivan on healing duty. Never let the res buff vanish and he goes down pretty fast.
15 is definitively overleveled, but I guess that without Breeze it gets a lot harder. Oh, and... praying for no Eruption is useless. Saturos attacks in a sequential pattern so he's BOUND to use it :P


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: dive_darkness on 18, February, 2016, 01:45:53 PM
Without breeze, it's really hard. Fireball hits for 80 on central target, erupion 100, 80 on sub targets. That's why i overleveled (also for ice horn, which really helped.)
Just beat Tret too. A real pushover after saturos, lol. Just kept pounding with ragnarok and heat wave until he died.

Edit:

Mogall forest cleared. Skipped all fights in order not to level up too much. Reached the boss at level 15.
He went down fast. Granite + breeze + fire/water summons 2. Then earth + wind summons 3, garet use heat wave, mia heals. Then ragnarok, heat wave, storm ray, heal until the boss fall. I think level 15 is also too high for that fight.

The fire djinn north of xian hits hard. Even with breeze. Took him down by brute force. (Used the same Methode that for the ape in mogall, except Isaac was on healing duty and mia wa spamming ice horn)
Went down in turn 4.

Next I tried the first living statue in Altin. Still the same strategy, still effective. Went down without even forcing me to heal. All characters still level 15 (obviously with the best equipments possible at that time)

All fights done up 'till now we're done with the basic classes.
I'll try to switch djinns around to built a different setup for each statue, just to try the other classes.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 18, February, 2016, 07:04:09 PM
Ok now you've surpassed me (i'm at xian), but I've already looked at the Statues cause I think they needed a fix. So you might find the living statues too easy and the Hydros Statue too hard. I'm also checking the Djinn again thanks to your input.
For reference, I also go basic till i have 4-5 djinn, apart from a few specific fights (like saturos).


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: dive_darkness on 18, February, 2016, 07:38:21 PM
I think the djinn hit a bit hard and have too little hp. The two last djinns (Venus in mogall and fire north of xian) we're basically just a "dps rush". Their psynergies hit Aoe and very hard, even when you mitigate the damages with breeze. And as I've said, 3 turns and they die the 4th, which only let them act for 3 rounds.

Will edit the post after hydros statue.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Chronotakular on 18, February, 2016, 10:48:48 PM
I've actually been having trouble abusing RNG. I suppose it might have to do with all of the class changes and what not. Not sure why but I can't get stuff to drop. I'm find with grinding for the drop anyhow; my team needs experience anyways.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 18, February, 2016, 10:53:58 PM
I've actually been having trouble abusing RNG. I suppose it might have to do with all of the class changes and what not. Not sure why but I can't get stuff to drop. I'm find with grinding for the drop anyhow; my team needs experience anyways.
Not at all... There's an old guide on gamefaqs for the GS RNG (http://www.gamefaqs.com/gba/561356-golden-sun-the-lost-age/faqs/25734) that works perfectly even with my mod. It's the RNG bible for Golden Sun. Follow it to the letter and drops are guaranteed.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: dive_darkness on 18, February, 2016, 11:07:13 PM
I've actually been having trouble abusing RNG. I suppose it might have to do with all of the class changes and what not. Not sure why but I can't get stuff to drop. I'm find with grinding for the drop anyhow; my team needs experience anyways.

Just as caledor said.
I'd add that in GS 2, it's harder to make the RNG work.
So just create a save state at the start of battle, follow the guide. If you didn't get the drop, just try to aim to add 1 to your last number. Or reduce 1 if it gets too hard to add up. You'll understand what I'm saying while reading the guide.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 18, February, 2016, 11:13:13 PM
From past experience, if a drop doesn't happen when following a "guide" that describes which actions to take at each turn (like those on the wiki), 9 out of 10 times is cause the enemy in question acts more than once per turn with my mod. That's why i pointed to the gamefaqs guide... so you guys can learn the method behind the procedure.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Chronotakular on 19, February, 2016, 02:34:55 AM
I'm pretty familiar with the method and counting. I just have no idea what I am doing wrong. I'll suppose I have to give it another look at some point soon, however.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 19, February, 2016, 02:36:33 AM
I'm pretty familiar with the method and counting. I just have no idea what I am doing wrong. I'll suppose I have to give it another look at some point soon, however.
Give me an example of a fight with the actions you take and let's see if i can help you.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: dive_darkness on 19, February, 2016, 04:48:36 PM
Ok, reached hystos statue.
The aqua statues are too weak. Definitely. I killed them all just by summoning all on the first round. They don't have the time to counter at all.
Next is the water djinn. Same thing: he died on the second round. Same strategy.
Aaaaaand... Hydros statue heals too often. Or too much. For facts, he used 3 times ply well on 3 turns, getting back ~ 750hp. Tiamat (which is his weakness) only hit for 350. So he definitely heals too much. Same with rupture. He kills your buffs every 2 turns, which doesn't even let you get something from them. Also froth spiral and water breath... Those are his main source of damages, and they hit too hard. For comparison: without granite, water breath inflicts ~ 130 on the central target, 60-70 on the two others. Froth spiral hit for ~90 on the central target, 60 on the sides and 40 on the extremities.
Issac lv 16, 3 Venus djinn sets has... 220 hp.

Even at lv 20, that makes huge damages. And 20 seems a bit overleveled for Altin. (4 levels = ~ 10 in each stats and 30hp)
So you might want to check those.

Edit:

Okay, I've beaten him at lv 16.
Strategy used:
Isaac, ruffian -> meteor jump every turn. Use granite if needed to heal (only once)
Garet, ruffian -> meteor jump. Use forge first turn.
Ivan, base class -> literally spam breeze. Use it, then set, then use, then set, and so on.
Mia, base class -> spam wish.

When Isaac and garet have low pp, they use their djinn then summon. (Using a psy crystal will make the fight easier, as they can keep spamming meteor jump)
The boss died after Tiamat.

BUT: I was lucky. He never focused water breath on ivan, letting him alive. Hardly ever used froth spiral, and only 5 ply well (which still hurts a lot when he use 2 in the same round...)
That's a very hard fight. If the boss used 2-3 more ply well, It'd have been impossible, as at lv 16 you don't have enough pp to keep up with healing. Then you use spritz, the water djinn, and then you're dead.


RE-edit:

Lahmakan cleared. You don't have to fight the djinn, so that is easy.
For the manticore, got there at lv 18. Pretty easy: he doesn't hit hard compared to the statue, he uses debuff soften though. Just build up the defenses on the first turn with the djinns, second turn spam invocations, then mia spam ice horns, Ivan spam storm ray, garet does whatever you make him do (he doesn't do much damage against him.), Isaac on healing duty. The boss fall pretty fast.
I did it in 4 turns. 1 to summon boreas/Thor/tiamat/cybele. Then spam the psynergies.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 19, February, 2016, 06:11:54 PM
What i expected, which means i've already fixed everything. Just checked Manticore... it's just stupid as it's now so it'll be buffed.

Also, since I want to make my 400th post somewhat relevant, I'm using it to announce that for v1.32 maces have been completely revamped. While I was making all the fixes to weapons today, I noticed that they've always been kinda underwhelming and didn't have a peculiar attribute like other weapon types. Well, no more. They're both good and unique now. More info will come with the actual patch.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: dive_darkness on 19, February, 2016, 11:20:36 PM
Alright, did karagol.

I had: best equipment possible, 5 Venus djinn, 4 Mars, 5 Jupiter, 4 mercury (went and did Vale and Vault).

So, Thor cleared up all the little fights in one shot so I could keep my pp for Kraken. Your djinns can set up by walking around when choosing an oarsmen.

Kraken: switched all fire and earth djinns. Reached him at level 20.
Pretty simple strategy: 1st turn use breeze, mia does whatever, Isaac & garet use planet diver.
Then it's basically just wish, impact, planet diver, planet diver. Kraken is damn weak an doesn't hit hard at all. Didn't even bother to cure the poison, as I could afford to take those 30 damages each turn. Refresh impact/breeze if needed.

Next will be looking for the 6th Venus djinn, the roaming mercury, and the 6th Jupiter djinn in altmiller. Will write after the colosseum.

And I failed to go to Crossbone >< it seems that making the old man and 3 ladies as oarsmen don't bring you there.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: JamietheFlameUser on 20, February, 2016, 12:19:34 AM
I've heard that the way you get to Crossbone Isle is by making the rowers unbalanced; that is, have strong rowers on one side and weaklings and/or layabouts on the other.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: dive_darkness on 20, February, 2016, 12:57:06 AM
Well, then it was pretty balanced, for I choose only the ones who looked too weak to row ><

On a side note: RNG'd the aura gloves. Those are pretty sick ! I got 4 of them for the lolz trying to figure out why a RNG of 31 didn't seem to work. I had to go to waaaaay higher numbers to get it.
To RNG the aura gloves: Hard reset in the desert. Exit and enter 7 times. You encounter two manticores.
1st turn: 2nd Venus skill with the falling spikes (don't remember the name, sorry.), Nova, Storm Ray, Ice horns.
2nd turn: quake, garet defend, ray, wish
3rd turn: quake, guard (support skill that affects all party members), bolt on the second manticore, water djinn on the first one. Manticore 1 dies and drop aura gloves.
Mia must hit last, all the skills targeted at the manticore 1. Done at level 21 with 5 djinns of each except mercury (only 4).
If done right, on the second turn, both manticores will use nova. On 3rd turn they use their poison attack and a normal attack if I remember right.

I then proceeded to the Hail djinn. Thor + judgement = KO. Those djinns are definitely too weak. Next will be altmiller and I'll RNG the Prophet's hat.
*didn't use the shirts/boots up 'till now. Will get them later.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Chronotakular on 20, February, 2016, 08:49:24 AM
I was doing a very similar routine to how'd you make Kikuichimonji drop in the first game. I'd save and hard reset until I got an encounter with Gillman Lord, and one other enemy. Focus the psyenergy on the Gillman Lord, and kill him with a Djinn. Though since Jenna goes second, it can be hard to manipulate. I was using other psyenergies and such to add numbers.

Though, as I was thinking about what's the best way to go about how I could fix it, while mindlessly grinding while doing other things...

(http://i.imgur.com/PBD2RDp.png)

Of course then, I actually got the 1/256 drop legitimately.

Notice the Gloria Helm and the Knights Greaves. I live for the grind haha.

Though, I didn't plan to get 5 Knights Greaves, so that doesn't really count. (I didn't even plan to get 1) That weapon took a while to drop. I will say it's much more satisfying to get this way. :happy:


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 20, February, 2016, 02:49:14 PM
v1.32 is UP.

That said, a few clarifications: the "MANY minor fixes to weapons" is all about minor changes in attack and/or price for a large number of weapons. Maces aside, i don't remember touching passive bonuses at all. Among those fixes there is the strengthening of a few midgame staves' unleashes though... IIRC each unleash from angelic ankh's to goblin rod's (sans crystal rod's) got a +5 in base power.

In TLA... the change in element and animation for 2 maces is because Bad Omen's animation is bugged if used by Death Call and because in the Eastern Sea there are 3 maces all of which are Venus-aligned.

Lategame Long Swords' unleashes were strengthened cause that's the main focus of those weapons and the gap between them and a few select ones (Sol, Excalibur) was too big. Lategame offensive djinn had to follow suit to keep them useful.

Turtle Dragon was removed from Treasure Isle cause i wanted it to drop the Blessed Mace once again. I felt that we had enough maces in the Eastern Sea and too few in the Western Sea (where the turtle dragon is also found). Moreover, since both Hydra and Turtle Dragon roam the Western Sea but Hydra is the weaker one, it's only fitting that it's the one that is also found earlier.

Finally, MACES: the main focus of this release. Just granting power boost and an increased unleash chance clearly wasn't enough. Their unleashes weren't good enough compared to those of the long swords for warriors and mages had MUCH better options in the staves. Not to mention that common maces had zero bonuses, which made them nothing more than weaker longswords.
Maces now are weapons fully devoted to support. They always increase HP (which makes them the opposite of axes: lower offense but higher defense), and the artifact ones also increase Power and Resist of a single element. I can definitively see them being an option for hybrid classes now. Warrior-mages will enjoy the increased elemental power and Mage-warriors will like the increased HP and higher attack power compared to staves. The Rising Mace (which is now Mercury-aligned) is probably best suited for defensive classes like Paladin and Holy Knight since it improves their survival thanks to the Res and HP bonuses, and that of their companions thanks to the increase in MePower, which strengthens Pure Wish.
The downsides? Maces are simply the worst at unleashing: lower chance and weaker power compared to longswords.

I can already say that there's a very high chance that I'll make a new lategame Mars-aligned Mace with the Fury in mind for next release.

About the Remedy issue, I decided to leave it like this cause I didn't like plan A very much and i realized that Plan B implied that the Guardan would've lost Break. Besides, you can always regain CP with a single action by putting all your djinn in stanby with R+Select, which is as quick as putting just one in standby (Plan B's goal)

@Chrono & Dive: I've fixed the link to the RNG guide (it was pointing to the wrong one)


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: dive_darkness on 20, February, 2016, 10:24:36 PM
Alright. Haven't downloaded the update, but here you go:

Jupiter Djinn in altmiller: as weak as hail. Just spammed the summons and he died.
Farmed 4 prophet's hat. They are good, but not that good either. Then for the fountain: I couldn't get all the items, but from what I got, the best one is ninja hood. I got: cocktail dress, earth shield, the armor, assassin blade, the axe, war gloves, the elemental ones, and the glittering tiara. All weaker than my current equipments.

For the colosseum itself: fights were quite easy. It's mainly a dps race. Summon, the flint, sap, ragnarok, granite, ground, apocalypse. They can heal, which is pretty annoying, but they still fall easily. All of them.
Ps: got the best equipments during collosso.

Alright !

Now I have no idea: did you make Lunpa an end game area like crossbone island ? Or is it doable at that stage ?

Will download the update and install quickly.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 21, February, 2016, 12:13:32 AM
@Djinn: they're all going to be "weak" if you rush them with the likes of judgment and meteor. They lack the HP to withstand that.

@Lunpa: Considering that enemies were strengthened by a flat multiplier, the order by which you should attempt dungeons is the same of the original game.

Also... did you really get the aura gloves before the Tolbi fountain items? Aren't those dropped only in Suhalla from the Magicore?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: dive_darkness on 21, February, 2016, 12:35:34 AM
Yup. But you can go through Suhalla and totally skip Tolbi technically. You can encounter the manticore sat the entrance of te desert. And I had only 5 lucky medals when arriving in Tolbi. So I decided to just do it later with the shirts and rings. It was loooooooong to get 4 adept rings + 4 running shirts + 4 sprint shoes considering that you cannot get the same item twice in a row in the same category.

Djinns: meh. Summoning is efficient to save up pp in long dungeons. Enemies hit hard, so I have to heal often. And wish/cure well can quickly deplete your pm enough that you might run out during boss fights.

And went through suhalla. The normal lizards are nice. Like in normal game, they're not too hard, nor too weak, and the give nice exp/gold.
Just skipped the tempest lizard for now, I'll get back to him after Lalivero.
And storm lizard yay !!!
Actually beat him by luck. My strategy wasn't optimal at all, as my pp were running low. Attempted at level 22, base classes. (Will probably go for ninja/samurai classes for crossbones and lunpa.)
Turn 1: ground, 3 summons to boost the elemental damages.
Turn 2: Flash, apocalypse, djinn djinn
Turn 3: granite, djinn, kite, spritz
Turn 4: sap, djinn, djinn, heal 2x (first lucky turn, a the boss could have killed both Mia and Ivan)
Turn 5: decided to give it all YOLO style. 4 summons. (Second lucky turn. The boss didn't kill anyone, although all characters were in the yellow numbers.)
Turn 6: boss dead.
If I died, I'd have tried again with a psynergy strat I think.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 21, February, 2016, 02:35:33 AM
Oh, well... it's your choice. I just don't like summon rushing at all... it kinda ruins the fun of the game for me.

Heck, if I could I'd remove the option entirely. I've already thought of a nice method: On turn 0 of a battle you can't summon more than Ramses/Megaera. Each subsequent turn, the number of djinn you can use in a single summon increases by 1. That simple. The problem is i have no idea how hard it would be to code that.

Well... at least the TLA superbosses can't be rushed as things are now.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: JetFavre on 21, February, 2016, 04:59:48 AM

I was bored today, so I decided to play through TBS and write some brief notes while playing. Every battle (except my last fight against Deadbeard) had all djinn set at the beginning. I did Kolima up to the Tret battle, completed Mercury lighthouse, then defeated Tret. I did vault/vale/lunpa immediately after getting the cloak ball. Otherwise, I stuck to the standard playthrough order.

Saturos: Level 9-10. Ivan fainted ~2/3 through battle. Had Earth djinn set on Ivan to give him more HP, but he was still dropped to 2 HP by eruption. Appropriately challenging at the time, though I think I got a little lucky with his target selections.

Tret: Level 10-11. Extremely easy. I'm guessing his strength was set to be battled before Mercury when you only have 3 members at lower levels. This was just use 2 djinn on each member -> summon -> use 2 djinn again -> don't even need 4 summons.

Killer Ape: Level 12-13. fairly easy. Doesn't do enough damage to warrant much healing, especially with granite every third turn.

Corona: This djinn hit really hard and felt much harder than any of the other djinn. I only had Garet alive at the end, but fought it pretty sloppily. I think the difference between here and Saturos is how often AOE psynergy is used.

Hydros Statue: Level 15-16. seemed appropriate. This fight without wish would have been really hard, but Ivan spamming it as the first move every turn and possible additional heals from Isaac pretty much meant no one could die. If given a stronger psynergy, it might require level grinding since you don't have revive.

Manticore: Level 16-17. pretty weak. Maybe replace mad blast with something stronger.

Kraken: Level 16-17. Slightly weaker than I'd hoped for. Spamming wish on Ivan or Mia is still a dominant strategy. He doesn't seem to have break, which means his damage is never high enough to be a threat after using corona/breeze.

Colosso: Level 19. Not much to say, just Ground -> Flint -> Ramses -> Cure Well as usual. There's little room for strategic diversity, so I don't think this could be changed in a meaningful way.

Toadonpa: Level 19-20. Probably at the correct difficulty. The base damage on his psynergy is low, but poisons often enough to make up for it. Increasing the single-target damage on poison-tail significantly may be a nice touch.

Storm Lizard: Level 21-22. Reasonable difficulty. I made it harder than it should have been when it took 4 attempts to revive one person because only Isaac had revive (Ivan/Mia had a higher speed, so I couldn't fully heal after using revive).

Deadbeard: Level 25-26. @#$% this guy. Took 5 tries and was very enjoyable :). I think a major error in my first couple tries was using Luff, which led to 2 Sweeps in a turn knocking out adjacent members. I also did a couple first-turn summons the fifth time to vent some frustration ;). My boring class setup had very few debuffs available and no early summons had resulted in his ward/guard/impact/etc. building up too much over the fight length. Out of curiosity, were his resistances significantly changed? Judgement wrecked every time it was used, but other Boreas and Meteor only did 25-45% as much damage. I just don't recall that big of a difference, but maybe it was always that way.

S&M and Fusion Dragon: Level 27-28. Slightly underwhelming, but close to the right difficulty. It probably would have been appropriate if I'd skipped crossbone isle and been 2 levels lower. I had to revive a few guys against the dragon and found reviving much easier than against deadbeard or storm lizard (i.e., it worked the first turn).

Why does Mia going from 4-5 fire djinn (Shugenja) to 6-7 (Righteous) cause her to lose the Wish series?

If you want me to expand on any of these, let me know. I'll probably play through TLA (sans Dullahan) over the next week or two and can give similar feedback.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 21, February, 2016, 01:26:51 PM
Hi JetFavre, thanks for your report, it'll be very useful for making a few adjustment here and there.

Just wanted to ask... which version were you playing with? Cause Manticore got Fireball and Flare Storm with the latest one.

@Deadbeard: His resistances are the same as vanilla: 72 Ve, 193 Me and 152 Ju.

@Mia: cause Righteous is Garet's class. For dual classes, after the fifth djinn, you must give that character a djinn of his element in order to keep him in that line. If you don't he'll end up in another character's line. This happens in the vanilla game as well, but doesn't happen in TLA with my mod cause i got rid of those partial classes there.

I'll be waiting for your feedback on TLA.

EDIT: Localization rant time. How's it possible that the translatiors/localizators managed to NEVER use the term "philosopher's stone" in both games, always opting for "stone of sages" and "wisdom stone" instead!? In a game that speaks of alchemy from beginning to end, no less! What pisses me off the most is that i already know the answer to my own question... i just can't believe they were THAT blind to not figure it out...


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: JetFavre on 22, February, 2016, 01:03:20 AM
I was on the 1.32 patch. I just replayed it to make sure. Once you have Wish, enemies need a significant boost in their AOE psynergy or high single-target damage to be a threat. Things like mad blast, fireball, nova, etc. have decent damage, but one of them needs to be used twice per turn for 2-3 consecutive turns to realistically do anything. Idk, just my thoughts on it.

Thanks for the info on the other two points. I usually just stuck with monelemental classes until having all the djinn, so I hadn't previously encountered losing psynergy like that.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: dive_darkness on 22, February, 2016, 01:15:32 AM
Alright. Did some more things.

Farmed a few items:
Blessed Mace -> lol, I sold them immediately. It's weaker than the sacred mace bought In lalivero.
Feathered Robe -> equipped on Ivan + Mia for the speed.
Didn't get the giant's Axe.
Equipped Kikuichimonji on Ivan + Garet
And got the zodiac wand, which is waaaay weaker than Kikuicjimonji => sold.

With this, went to crossbone. Mainly did all the fights with summon to save the PPs for deadbeard (still did the last two with simple attacks/heal strategy. No other psy/djinn.)

For deadbeard: equipment were the best I could get. There's only two pieces of equipment I didn't get already: mythril Tiara and Giant's axe, so I don't know if I missed something.
Garett had muramasa, thunder crown, cleric ring.

And now... Yup. Deadbeard is hard. I tried a lot of different strategies which relied on psynergies and attacks. But because it seems that you CAN'T get rupture, you cannot dismiss his buffs, which condemn you to deal miserable damages and eating too much to be able to keep up with the healing.
I finally did it the cheesy way. 1st turn: granite, kite(Isaac), meteor, wish. 2nd turn: granite set, apocalypse, flash, djinn (not luff as it triggers the swipes of doom.), wish. Then it is just every turn setting either granite or flash, mia on healing duty, Ivan using his djinns and summoning procne when available. Used kite when mia ran low on pp and used a psy crystal.
This boss hurts just too much. A bad turn with him using 2x impact, then a swipe without Flash (granite only divide the damages by two. Which isn't near enough.) means more than 350 damage in central target. Ivan get OS by the attack with his 7 djinns set. Another exemple of bad turns would be barrier two time. Then summon inflics 200 less (procne deals ~500 damage). And a double swipe turn which isn't mitigated by flash means that you can just try again.
Did I mention that buffing your stats to mitigate his attacks just means that he'll use Rupture and negates all the boosts.

I came to the conclusion that if there's another viable strategy against him, I didn't find it. I also discovered that Ivan can get wish. Lol. Not useful at all against deadbeard.
The funny thing with this fight is that my equipments made Mia go too fast. I needed her to act between deadbeard's two turns, so I removed her running shirt and replaced her feathered robe by the princess robe.

And yup: last two djinns done only with normal attacks. Still die extremely fast (respectively the water in suhalla gate and the Jupiter in Babi lighthouse, both done with the relics you can buy in lalivero.)

I guess now I'll just enjoy my Garet with my infinite planet diver (thunder crown allows an infinite amount of uses, as planet diver costs less than what it makes you recover each turn). I need to do Lunpa, then Saturos/Menardi.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 22, February, 2016, 02:12:48 AM
Once you have Wish, enemies need a significant boost in their AOE psynergy or high single-target damage to be a threat.
Thanks, i'll keep that in mind.

Quote
Blessed Mace -> lol, I sold them immediately. It's weaker than the righteous mace bought In lalivero.
And got the zodiac wand, which is waaaay weaker than Kikuichimonji => sold.
ok how can both be true? if you don't like the zodiac wand due to the lower attack power you should like the blessed mace more since its stronger than the righteous mace attack-wise. i'm not saying you're wrong, i just want to understand your way of thinking. btw, all staves have crap tier attack. that's cause if you're equipping one it means you couldn't care less of that character's attack stat. they're used to buff spells.

Quote
Yup. Deadbeard is hard. [...]
you have a point. i think i'll lower the learning level of break (rupture) from 30-32 to 26-28. Also, thanks for reminding me that i need to nerf Flash (70%? 80%? Haven't decided yet)

Quote
not luff as it triggers the swipes of doom
Lol that's the only reason i gave him swipe to begin with... Sealing Deadbeard made the entire fight a joke. BTW, luff isn't a guaranteed seal anymore.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: dive_darkness on 22, February, 2016, 01:05:05 PM
Don't have much time, so I'll make it short:

I like to clear end game contents with psy/unleashes by boosting my stats. Blessed mace have no unleash, and the kikuichimonji give speed and a very nice wind unleash for Ivan. That's all.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 23, February, 2016, 03:09:44 AM
While trying to figure out how flash, granite and similar effects work, i discovered that in TLA effect 47 (Flash) and effect 88 (Guard Aura) are actually the same thing. This implies that:
A) the description is wrong (cause Guard Aura actually shields 90% damage and not 95%)
B) I can't nerf Flash without hitting Guard Aura as well.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Salanewt on 24, February, 2016, 04:37:27 AM
A) Good to know for future reference, plus it also explains why I couldn't find any values for 95% reduction in character/unit RAM. Not really sure of a good solution to that though.
B) Hm... What if you replace the effect that Flash uses with 60% reduction? Or is that one not in GS1 for some reason?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: JamietheFlameUser on 24, February, 2016, 08:13:27 AM
So does that mean 47 and 88 use the exact same code internally? What a waste when they could have just used 47 for both.

Also, @Sala, I think the 60% reduction effect isn't in GS1 because Shade is the only thing which uses it, and Shade was introduced in GS2.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 24, February, 2016, 12:05:05 PM
Actually I wanted to separate flash from guard aura till a moment ago. I've already written the code for damage calculation but now I think i'll take the easy way out and move flash to shade and shade to granite (so basically 50%, 50% and 60% damage reduction for granite shade and flash respectively) so guard aura remains untouched.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Salanewt on 24, February, 2016, 03:01:08 PM
If Shade is still single-target then it would only be as effective as an unchanged defend command with 50% reduction. Which probably makes it a bad djinni to ever use barring certain exceptions, but it's your choice.


Jamie: Looks like Fox beat me to it, so I'll just copy what he said so it doesn't get lost in the chatbox (being topical to the current discussion and everything).
Quote
0811D6EA = Change this from 01 to 02?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 24, February, 2016, 04:58:44 PM
Actually Shade has always been multitarget just like Granite and Flash. Lol if it was like you said it would've been quite the blunder on my part :P

About the whole Defend/Djinn Wall thing. It's true that a certain byte (IIRC char address +0x12B) is used by Defend, Granite, Flash, Shade, the Enemy move total defense and the vanish effect. In GS1 having that byte set to 1 cuts the damage by half (Defend and Granite) and having that byte set to 2 cuts the damage by 90% (Flash and Total Defense).
In TLA 1 is used by Defend and Granite, 2 by Shade (60% reduction), 3 by Flash, Guard Aura and Total Defense (90%) and 4 is the vanish effect.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Salanewt on 24, February, 2016, 06:24:12 PM
Oh, wait, Shade /= Haze. For some reason I mixed the two up this time. :P

Values: Makes sense. A part of me is tempted to try changing how that works so a flat value is written to RAM and calculations are based off of that, but I don't really know if I want to do that when I am in a bit of an animation mood.

As for the wave animation, I just have to fix the palette swap issue before I consider it finished. I can upload what I have later if you'd like, the only downside is there would probably be a palette fix shortly after.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 24, February, 2016, 06:42:22 PM
The values thing is a very nice idea. the code for the damage reduction would become ridiculously short, you'd just have to tweak the 3/4 effects (50,60,90 and 95 reduction) to set the right value instead of 1, 2 or 3. There's one downside though. You can't use "4" cause the game would treat it as the vanish effect, and fixing that might be a little annoying (i know the value for vanish is checked in at least 4 functions before the damage reduction one in the code).

About Wave, if you upload it i can test in the meantime. repatching after is no biggie ;)


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Salanewt on 24, February, 2016, 06:55:56 PM
Yeah, that's the thing. Plus I would also have to tweak the effect-only formula to also ignore those effects (like I did for another patch) so they don't try to damage you.

This is true. Okay then, here you go. I should note that the patch assumes you also have the overhaul patch installed, so all you need to do to fix that is go to #0816AED4 and load r1 from [r0, #0x18] to have it use argument. x6981 is the hex for that. Please note that I haven't tested how it looks when an enemy uses them against you, but I imagine it should look okay for the most part.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 24, February, 2016, 08:30:41 PM
Hmm... if your fix to the wave line requires the animation overhaul patch, it's gonna take some time for me to implement it cause i've got to apply the changes of the overhaul as well. I'll let you know how it goes.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Salanewt on 24, February, 2016, 09:42:05 PM
Well, it "requires" it. The only changes made without it are in the wave function itself, so with a tiny bit of assembly you can just change a tiny section of code to make it argument-compatible. But the bonus with the overhaul is that your animation options open up a bit, with the lack of certain multiplier-compatible variants of abilities like Double Bite; nothing you wouldn't be able to fix manually though.

Edit: Also, it doesn't actually change the animation table. So there's that too.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 24, February, 2016, 10:06:05 PM
i should be able to figure out which changes the animation overhaul brings to the wave line... i just hope it's not gonna take too much time. Also... Did you change Dreamtide itself? I mean... the old dreamtide is still somewhere within the code (for the original unleash)?

Just tested all three both as player and as enemy... they're just perfect. Amazing job! ;)


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Salanewt on 24, February, 2016, 10:29:20 PM
Changes: Aside from the animation/pointer table and the part that assigns the main argument, the overhaul does not change the wave animation itself.

The original Dreamtide, with the spiral, is no longer there with this patch; Watery Grave is mostly the same as before though, but is now argument/tier 2 of this animation. You may need to decide on a new animation to replace Dreamtide with for the weapon's unleash.

Awesome, that's so good to hear. Thanks! :D Just the palette swap issue to resolve and then this animation is completely done then.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 26, February, 2016, 10:02:29 PM
I've put temporarily on hold the implementation of the new wave animation cause i've found something amazing to tinker with: making this
Quote from: me
I just don't like summon rushing at all... it kinda ruins the fun of the game for me.

Heck, if I could I'd remove the option entirely. I've already thought of a nice method: On turn 0 of a battle you can't summon more than Ramses/Megaera. Each subsequent turn, the number of djinn you can use in a single summon increases by 1. That simple. The problem is i have no idea how hard it would be to code that.
real.

Also, another translation error fixed: The shopkeeper at Apojii mentions a place called Garapas. She actually refers to Apojii, 'cause Garapas is the japanese name for the island.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 27, February, 2016, 12:50:40 AM
I still like my idea better, but sadly it's just not possible via a hack.  I mean, sure, mechanically you /could/ code it... but it won't be capable of loading that many sprites.  I'd need to use OpenGS so as to not overload the Vram...


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 27, February, 2016, 03:08:44 AM
Well... I only need a fix to summon rushes, I don't want to make summons a completely different thing, so there's really no comparison here. I like your idea btw.

EDIT: Summon Rush has been successfully killed in TLA. Considering that in GS is gonna be easier cause the tablet summons aren't there, i'd say it's only a matter of time before the whole thing is done.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: dive_darkness on 28, February, 2016, 01:23:26 AM

Okay, last update on the first golden sun.

Lunpa: okay, it's not an end game zone, so it was easy. Maxed attack with divine spear 2x and high impact, then high impact again on second turn and wrecked the frog with planet diver and normal attacks with Ivan. Asura hits hard, yup. Mia on healing, and normal attacks when she can.


Went to fight Saturos/Menardi too. These two are huge bastards. Pyroclasm and supernova hits like a truck, death scyth's KO proc rate is high enough that menardi killed three times in a row, not mitigating a turn with both Pyroclasm and supernova -> Ivan dead.

Again, tried a few different strategies (no items):
base classes/no summon -> five resets because death scyth is just a pain combined to pyroclasm (200 +- 50 on everyone). And damage output wasn't good. Also had to reset because Pyroclasm + supernova.

Planet diver/ wish strategy: same, multiples resets because rnjesus decided that death scyth is Menardi's main attack (of course it OS 3x in a row. Yeah, so you have to waste 3 turns to revive). Still the same with pyroclasm + supernova turns -> Ivan dies.

I tried with Isaac on healing duty with mia, the two others on attack: it should be doable. Except that garet's damage is low in this fight so Ivan basically do 3/4 of te damages, Isaac have revive, mia use a wish-serie psy every turn.
Got killer still by a bad rng. death scyth on isaac, and next turn supernova (centered on Mia) + Heat flash on Mia -> mia dies. Lol.

I tried the ninja class. Yup. Isaac and garet hit the same as in the Black knight class. Except that Ivan is crap (or you mix Mia's djinn as well, which destroys her.) didn't even try that one.

In the end I did it with Djinns/summon (didn't cheese with flash and granite). Mia healer, as always.
That makes 4 djinns, then summon, then djinns, summon, and so on for all 3 others.

Fusion dragon is weak compared to Saturos and Menardi. Outer space hits like pyroclasm but he uses it less often. Dragon driver doesn't hit hard. Cursed breath, lol, he uses it often, and Haunt Proc'd EVERY TIME on all characters that were hit.
The only thing to watch out for are poison (he can poison you, but it's rare), Haunt (just use the water djinn and flash during this turn), his speed. He is extremely fast.
Easily doable with psy only (that's how I did it).

And with this, game finished !

Edit:

How did you kill summon rushing ?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 28, February, 2016, 01:42:05 AM
Quote
How did you kill summon rushing?
I think you actually meant "how will summoning work from next version onwards" so...

At turn 0 of EACH battle, you won't be able to summon anything stronger than Ramses/Megaera. You literally won't find Cybele etc in the summon menu.
At turn 1, the 3-djinn summon like Cybele, Procne, Moloch etc appear in the summon menu.
At turn 2, 4-djinn summons like Boreas and Ulysses appear in the summon menu.
At turn 3, Haures and Eclipse appear... and so on.
Charon appears at turn 7 and Iris at turn 8.

Obviously, each summon will appear only if you own the required number of djinn or if you've read its tablet.

As for how i actually accomplished that... i created 3 functions. One that counts turns, one that sets the turns to 0 at the start of each battle and a third that sets the available summons depending on current turn number. then linked the old code to use those new functions... et voilà. It's done!

PS: thanks for the report as usual ;)


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: dive_darkness on 28, February, 2016, 03:27:37 AM
No problem.
Sorry, I thought I put the "" around "kill". Turns out I didn't.

I'll try TLA when I get back home in 10 days.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 28, February, 2016, 07:56:21 PM
Aaand Summon Rushes are gone in GS1 too. Now i have to rebalance summons again, add the new wave animation and then v1.33 will be released.

For those interested, the functions I used to kill summon rushing:
http://i.imgur.com/GDTjiIx.png
http://i.imgur.com/enOlu78.png
http://i.imgur.com/agHPTFP.png

080B05E4: Called at the start of a battle, sets the current turn (02006000) to 0.
080B05F4: Called at the end of each round, increases current turn by 1.
080B060C: Called every time the Summon Flags (0200024C) are altered, it backups them into 02000248 and then sets the available summons depending on turn number.

The third image shows the values used by the AND instruction at each turn. After the 8th turn it always uses the last one.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 29, February, 2016, 03:42:21 AM
Well... I only need a fix to summon rushes, I don't want to make summons a completely different thing, so there's really no comparison here. I like your idea btw.

EDIT: Summon Rush has been successfully killed in TLA. Considering that in GS is gonna be easier cause the tablet summons aren't there, i'd say it's only a matter of time before the whole thing is done.

To be fair, dropping the summon HP% damage to 2% per djinn instead of 3% does that, though I'd have not compensated with higher base damage.  Oh, figure I should ask - do summons benefit from the MaxPP Casting Power thing? If so, base damage reduction might be called for as well...


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 29, February, 2016, 07:37:20 AM
It's enough against most bosses, but you can still waltz through the game with the strongest summons, killing djinn and mid bosses effortlessly. And a turn-0 Boreas is just wrong no matter how you look at it. As for the compensation, I'd just say i did it wrong the first time. Some summons needed a boost in power really badly (the tablet ones till Ulysses), but raising the 4-djinn power to 280 was clearly a mistake to say one.

I'm also lowering the djinn requirement for the 3 strongest ones to make them a bit more accessible, with the added bonus of balancing djinn requirements among summons. Catastrophe to 7, Charon to 8 and Iris to 10 (I already know I'll try to leeroy doom dragon just to Iris the first party back to life with the second :P)

About the PP Multiplier... No. The multiplier and HP% damage are mutually exclusive for any ability.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 29, February, 2016, 12:25:46 PM
Ah, cool.  Dunno why it never occurred to me to ask before, since there is a base damage component to summons.  Definitely agree in lowering the djinn cost for the higher tier summons - they fell solidly into the awesome but impractical category.  I trust you lowered their HP% damage appropriately?

As for first turn summons... I'd argue that it may be better to have monsters that can exploit you being weaker, but alt-class runs could simply have a Mercury-heavy party in your example I suppose, thus negating the large hit to your stats... 

Is it still possible to do first turn Megaeras, or would that need to be a second turn action?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 29, February, 2016, 12:31:57 PM
Definitely agree in lowering the djinn cost for the higher tier summons - they fell solidly into the awesome but impractical category.  I trust you lowered their HP% damage appropriately?
Of course. The 2% per djinn remains.

Quote
Is it still possible to do first turn Megaeras, or would that need to be a second turn action?
Yes again. Actually, I remembered you opening a lot of your fights with Megaera in your reports, and that ended up being the main reason i left 2-djinn summons available at turn 0. ;)

EDIT: Everything's done almost done. v1.33 will probably be released tomorrow.

EDIT2: Crawling through old topics i discovered how to the game determines which sprite to use for each weapon. With this i can finally make the strong Mars-aligned Mace i promised. Also, Matoi and Meditation Rod will become Ankhs.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 01, March, 2016, 11:55:08 PM
Hmm... so, as for the pacing of summons, I wonder how that'll work out?  I mean, locking off 5-djinn summons for that long doesn't seem like that good of an idea, since they only need 3 turns to set up on base class runs... I feel maybe the scaling should be different? At the same time, I feel stacking it at two djinn per turn might be too much... Maybe stagger 2/1/2/1?  So: 2, 3, 5, 6, 8, 9?  Also, I imagine this will be hell for the Doom Dragon battle, since it's basically three fights.

@Strong Mace:  About damn time!  GS really needed better end-game weapon variety.  Though, I wonder how you'll add the new items?  Via shops, drops, or will you hide some new chests in the game?

@Dive Darkness:  Yo, what level were you at for the Satty and Menny fight?
Also @Caledor:  What level do you plan for the party to be at in the Satty and Menny fight, and did you change the levels of default Team Isaac to match that level?  The target level for end game in vanilla TBS is 28, which is the level they join at, so... was curious.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 02, March, 2016, 12:09:13 AM
@Summon Turns: I don't think I'll change turns for 2 reasons: first, no matter how you set it up you'll end up with "weaker" summons and "stronger" summons in the turn you gain two "tiers". second, it doesn't really change much.

@Doom Dragon is safe: on the round you kill a head the turn count increases by one just like for any other round. The issue exists for Agatio and Karst atop Jupiter Lighthouse and Fusion Dragon. Those reset the turn count.

@Mace: always drops. I actually never even tried tinkering with maps. About endgame variety... remember that there are also the Herculean Axe and the Rising Mace.

@Level: IIRC in TBS i never touched enemy groups nor exp gained. So it's safe to assume the levels are going to be the same of a vanilla playthrough. In my case somehow I always ended up being around 30-32, maybe due to some grind in Venus Lighthouse. 30 was mandatory before IMHO cause you learn Break at that level and you desperately need that for Deadbeard.

BTW, v1.33 is really close

Edit: v1.33 is finalized. Tomorrow it'll be uploaded and i'll discuss the changelog here.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: dive_darkness on 02, March, 2016, 09:16:50 AM
Rolina: about 28 for everyone. Maybe it's quite low. On Cartridge I finish the game between level 30 and 35 depending on how many fights I run from.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: zman9000 on 02, March, 2016, 10:45:19 AM
Quote
Rolina: about 28 for everyone. Maybe it's quite low. On Cartridge I finish the game between level 30 and 35 depending on how many fights I run from.

For a first play through i believe that 28 is too low. but multiple play through i think level 28 is kinda high.
I'm bad at strategy, i just spam stuff i think is good and i win. I've easily beaten the game, with no deaths at all, at level 19. it could have been lower except i leveled a bit before colosso because i every now and then mess it up and on that run i didn't want to mess it up.

I honestly don't know what to put the level of the first game at... since my first play through i sucked so bad, i wasn't able to beat it until i got to level 56 and even then it was a close call. really i think it depends on the person playing.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 02, March, 2016, 04:45:30 PM
v1.33 is UP! Starting post updated.

The main focus of this version are the kill to summon rushes and the new wave animation thanks to Lord Squirtle.

About the other changes:

Break has been made available earlier cause you literally can't fight Deadbeard without it... and having to grind for a single spell seemed unfair to me.

Flash and Shade have been nerfed cause they were the most overused (with the former being downright broken) djinn in both games. Alternating between the two was a very effective strategy that allowed you to cut 3/4 of damage on average while losing only half of the offensive potential.

PP restoring Djinn have been improved cause they were underwhelming IMHO and not practical at all for boss battles.

About the weakness change for some enemies: TLA is VERY EXTREMELY unbalanced in weaknesses. I think that more than 80% of enemies are weak either to Jupiter or Mars. Here (http://goldensunwiki.net/wiki/Category:The_Lost_Age_enemies_weak_to_Jupiter_attacks) and here (http://goldensunwiki.net/wiki/Category:The_Lost_Age_enemies_weak_to_Venus_attacks) you can easily check what I said. In vanilla TLA there are 26 enemy lines weak to Jupiter, 28 weak to Mars, 3 weak to Venus and 6 to Mercury. Talk about unbalanced.

Catastrophe, Charon and Iris require less djinn cause they would've been too impractical to be summoned with the new mechanic.

Base damage values for summons has been rebalanced cause the way they were 4 and 5 djinn summons were clearly the best ones on a damage/djinn ratio.

Alecto's Mace is the strong mars-aligned mace i promised. It's supposed to be the opposite of the Rising Mace, which is mostly gonna be used for defensive purposes I think. It's dropped by the new enemy Nue. Alecto is one of the Erinyes, female deities of vengeance from Greek mythology. I choose that name to complete the trio since her sisters Megaera and Tisiphone are already mentioned in the game.

Acheron Grief's element got changed to Jupiter to balance out the elemental alignments of endgame weapons. With the addition of Alecto's Mace and this change, now there are 12 endgame weapons, 3 for each element.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 03, March, 2016, 12:25:34 PM
28 is the target level of the end of vanilla TBS. 
@Caledor:  If you're making things more difficult, it'd make sense to change what the endgame level is appropriately.  The original TBS didn't really require much grinding, so raising a few levels isn't too much to ask for.  You shouldn't have to increase XP drops if the new target is, for example, level 32.  If the target is 35 or 40, you will need to increase XP drops because it's one hell of a grind to get to even those levels.

@Summon count:  My issue is that with the amount of turns it'll take to hit certain summons, it kinda seems like a different kind of awesome but impractical.  In that scenario, the amount of time it takes to be capable of seeing Charon or Iris make me think you'll rarely be able to even see them outside of longer bosses like the Doom Dragon. :/


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 03, March, 2016, 12:53:01 PM
@Endgame level: Wait a min you kinda lost me. What do you mean with "raise endgame level to 30-32" without raising exp? Cause yes, I made the game harder, but in a way that's still doable at the same levels of the vanilla game, so I don't really get what you're asking me to do. Cause there's no way you NEED level 35 or 40 to beat GS1.

@Summon: Remember that by the time you get Iris, Doom Dragon is the only thing you haven't beat yet. With Charon instead, potentially all 4 superbosses can still be alive, and i don't really think you can beat them within 8 turns. So... unless you want to unleash those beasts against some random mob for the fun of it, the turn count shouldn't really be an issue.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 04, March, 2016, 03:51:08 AM
I mean those levels area easy enough to attain near the end of the game that you won't need to raise XP at all.  I'm not actually asking you to do anything here.  I mean, maybe if nobody can beat it without tons and tons of grinding, but I doubt that's the case.

@Summon:  And thus it's entirely possible that people never get to SEE iris.  That's the problem with the system you just put into place - it's basically walling up a core game mechanic so that the stronger stuff rarely gets seen.  Also keep in mind that you now have two anti-summon rush tweaks in place now, so this is likely to take some tweaking based on player feedback.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Daddy Poi's Oily Gorillas on 04, March, 2016, 04:22:44 AM
Maybe I should have read this more thoroughly, but quick thought:
What if all Summons were enabled, but that turn number had an affect on its power?
In example...
Turn 1:
Tier 1 = 100%
Tier 2 = 90%
Tier 3 = 80%
Tier 4 = 70%

Turn 2: Add 10% to each? Or by any increment you want.... But this is a quick untested example to make a point....
Tier 1 = 100%
Tier 2 = 100%
Tier 3 = 90%
Tier 4 = 80%

Another example would be:
Turn 1... First djinni at 100% power, 2nd djinni at 50% power, 3rd djinni at 25% power.... 4th djinni at 12.5%... add it all up...
Turn 2... First and second djinn at 100% power, third djinn at 50% power... 4th djinni at 25%... and so on... - Sort of makes me think about item rarity on the Tolbi/Lemuria springs... but that's a little bit different.
With this example.... stronger summons don't make much of a difference from slightly weaker summons until later turns, I think... or something like that. (Possibility in this adding to strategy? Hm.)
But also note... that the amount of damage would be similar to this: (If thinking in a way where you accumate all the percentages of each djinn req turn # power percentage.) Turn 1 will never be 200%+ summed up... no matter what summon... Turn 2... never 300%+, etc. - I have the feeling this idea probably would work better with GS1, though??? Hm. But each person must decide for themselves, I guess.
I wouldn't mind certain equipment affecting how summons may work to a degree... but anyway... (i.e. One item could act as though you are on the following turn after... but only for that PC. Shaman items, maybe... Or maybe that could be true if you are wearing the whole set.)

(There are probably many other examples you could come up with... like if some summons should first require that a different summon be casted first before use in the first place.)


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: dive_darkness on 04, March, 2016, 06:46:43 AM
I just thought about it, but isn't it jut possible to give the bosses enough speed so it acts before you if you don't set the djinns ? That way, if you try to summon rush without properly buffing your team, you'd just take too much damage to survive the second turn ?

Like, Sheba has huge speed -> 400 base speed, no djinns set. All other characters are around 200-300. All djinn a set -> speed *2. The boss has a base speed of 500. (Numbers given don't mirror reality at all, and the speed stats given are for 0 djinns set) that way, he can hit first, then Sheba gets a turn, maybe Jenna too, then boss get its second turn. (Not accounting for the GS1 character).

That way, the drop in stats by getting the djinns ready to a point that without having buffed your speed/defense, you'd end up badly hurt/dead without having even a chance to act. But by buffing yourself properly, you could still use the summons.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Daddy Poi's Oily Gorillas on 04, March, 2016, 08:22:48 AM
Speaking of speed/agility, do you think it'd be a good idea to make the summoner who's casting the summon have like 0 speed so that all summons always go last? (or even half speed. ; returning back to normal after the summon, of-course.)

If Summon damage was a percent of Current HP instead of Max HP... than Summons going last could also mean even less HP damage as well... but hmm... (Under the situation where you have other PCs actually attacking.) - However, this is more of a food for thought thing than a suggestion... so...


(I really should go back and read more of this topic... I read some, but...... I not really keep updated on it... it's so long, though... we're going to hit 60 pages in... 3...2...1... well, it won't be the next post, so nevermind.)


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 04, March, 2016, 11:12:37 AM
Wow, so much input over a single night! Thanks guys! Let's see...

Quote
@Summon:  And thus it's entirely possible that people never get to SEE iris.  That's the problem with the system you just put into place
I think the problem lies in how far in the game Iris is obtained more than with my system. Also, if Doom Dragon is down in less than 8 turns, i did it wrong.

Quote
Also keep in mind that you now have two anti-summon rush tweaks in place now, so this is likely to take some tweaking based on player feedback.
Of course. I was already thinking on increasing HP% damage again on the stronger summons, and it's one of the thing i have scheduled to test for the next release. Player feedback on the matter would definitively help a lot.

Quote
Maybe I should have read this more thoroughly, but quick thought:
What if all Summons were enabled, but that turn number had an affect on its power?
I don't really like it. It's too subtle and even if people had all the numbers they'd still have to make calculations in the middle of a fight to see if a summon is effective or weaker than a cheaper one. Enough to discourage usage of the mechanic entirely I'd say.

Quote
I just thought about it, but isn't it jut possible to give the bosses enough speed so it acts before you if you don't set the djinns ? That way, if you try to summon rush without properly buffing your team, you'd just take too much damage to survive the second turn ?
The speed thing already happens (and if for some bosses doesn't, it HAS to be fixed so let me know). The point is, there's no way mid/endgame bosses (not the super 4) can kill you over two turns (especially given the backup party) if you know what you're doing. And since "knowing what you're doing" is one of the basic requirements for playing this mod, i'd say this isn't really viable.

Quote
Speaking of speed/agility, do you think it'd be a good idea to make the summoner who's casting the summon have like 0 speed so that all summons always go last?
I see this more of a buff than a nerf. If all summons go last i don't even need to plan my summoning turn: unleash whatever and summon the one you just unlocked (with the djinn unleashed on the same turn) with char with the best elemental affinity, cause agility and turn order aren't an issue anymore.
If you actually wanted to increase the chance the summoner gets killed before he can act, remember that there are djinn that do an amazing job at keeping chars alive for a turn so we'd be back to square one.

Quote
If Summon damage was a percent of Current HP instead of Max HP
Summons would become worse and worse as battle progresses. This incentives summon rushes instead of planned summons during a battle.

EDIT: There's one thing i didn't consider before about your idea, @Role. I can actually group Coatli and the 7-djinn summons together and have them all unlocked in a single turn cause Coatli doesn't deal damage. Basically the 4 7-djinn summons, Charon and Iris would all be available 1 turn earlier.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Daddy Poi's Oily Gorillas on 04, March, 2016, 01:22:41 PM
Quote
I don't really like it. It's too subtle and even if people had all the numbers they'd still have to make calculations in the middle of a fight to see if a summon is effective or weaker than a cheaper one. Enough to discourage usage of the mechanic entirely I'd say.
Weaker than a cheaper one... hmm... Depending on implementation... I wouldn't exactly say "weaker" unless referring to damage per djinn requirement. ... But yeah... that could go with what is effectively the best... so I suppose you have a point.
(How exactly would half power for the last djinni go for the highest tier summon currently unlocked on your current turn, anyway? - With the rest of the summon mechanics following your method of locking out the rest, since they'd probably be too useless in most of this theoretical idea anyway... - This is also assuming that you can tell which summon isn't actually at full power, of course.)

Quote
I see this more of a buff than a nerf. If all summons go last i don't even need to plan my summoning turn: unleash whatever and summon the one you just unlocked (with the djinn unleashed on the same turn) with char with the best elemental affinity, cause agility and turn order aren't an issue anymore.
Hm? So what if djinn usage didn't add to the summon req until next turn... or also went last? (Also agility=0) ... umm ... I think I'm messing things up... Heheh... (Definitely happens when you try to complicate things more than they need to be. It's not like I explain things exactly the way it should be explained.... so....)

Quote
Summons would become worse and worse as battle progresses. This incentives summon rushes instead of planned summons during a battle.
Good point... (Was mostly a sort of random example to build off of (but not really to add into a hack, of-course) with not much thought put into it.)  Perhaps the Damage Dealt This Round... would probably be a better choice for that hypothetical scenario... But I might not think much on that either. (For right now.) While even /if/ it did work out strategically, it doesn't seem that realistic. Or wait... it doesn't have to seem realistic, these are summons... :P


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Salanewt on 04, March, 2016, 08:56:04 PM
I think I agree with Caledor, although I could also see universal flat percentage increases based on turn count working. Lower summons would be affected less because of their lower power (but they would still be lower regardless), yet summon rushing would still be possible for those who are desperate for some initial damage output on the off chance it helps them win before the enemy/boss kills them. I mean, yes it would exist, but at least you get to keep a potential strategy in place while also nerfing it a bit.

Aside from that discussion: Nice work Caledor! Happy to see the wave patch being put to use as well.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 04, March, 2016, 09:10:57 PM
I heavily agree with Rolina on the issue of summons in this case and dislike the gating changes for summons, not the least of which because summons are already borderline useless against the only bosses they should really matter against. Your characters are going to die in one round against those superbosses if they have to grind their way through the fight with progressively fewer set djinn and stats.

And there's no way I'm cool with the idea that I can't unload an Iris on some end-game trash mob to watch the fireworks.

If you don't want minibosses to get tackled the way they currently do, then drop their offense and give them more hp. But besides that, if the plan is to give everything a small chance in the limelight, shouldn't summon-rushing be at least kind of good against something?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 04, March, 2016, 11:06:31 PM
Quote
[...] although I could also see universal flat percentage increases based on turn count working.
The numbers can always be tweaked to make any system work. My issue with that system is that it's hidden. there's no turn count in battle that's actually seen and you'd still have to make calculations during a fight. If there was some kind of window popping up and showing "potential damage" before you actually attacked like in tactics games I'd be totally fine with it.

Quote
Aside from that discussion: Nice work Caledor! Happy to see the wave patch being put to use as well.
I'm think I should be the one saying that to you lol

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Your characters are going to die in one round against those superbosses if they have to grind their way through the fight with progressively fewer set djinn and stats
progressively? not at all. you do realize that with Charon requiring 8 djinn you can potentially summon him with only a single tier loss right? It's 2 djinn per character.

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If you don't want minibosses to get tackled the way they currently do, then drop their offense and give them more hp
Summons still do HP% damage, and you get the full set of 4 around level 20. It would take more than 1500 HP to survive that, which is a 150% to 200% increase. And if I did that (while also lowering offense accordingly) all djinn and mimics would become incredibly tedious cause they wouldn't die but also wouldn't be able to kill you. We'd be back to square one, cause the best strategy would be summon rush till they're near dead and then land the coup de grace the following 1-2 turns.

Quote
And there's no way I'm cool with the idea that I can't unload an Iris on some end-game trash mob to watch the fireworks.
I don't think 7-8 turns of defend "just to watch the fireworks" once are such a big deal.

Quote
shouldn't summon-rushing be at least kind of good against something?
you're asking the wrong question. the issue is: "shouldn't summon-rushing have some kind of drawback or cost?" Summon rushing means going all-in. It works? Great, one boss down. Walk around till djinn are restored and resume the journey. It fails? I'm dead... Oh, well, I'll just tweak this and this and try again. ZERO drawbacks, ZERO cost. Such a mechanic shouldn't exist in the first place.
Shouldn't summons be at least kind of good against something? YES, ABSOLUTELY. This is what needs to be fixed. Be it fewer turns of waiting, higher base damage or higher HP% damage.

BTW... I'm sure somebody already realized it but I guess I'll say it anyway. If you think that it's mandatory to start all battles with all djinn set cause you can't Srush anymore, you're dead wrong. You can still put the djinn of the backup party on standby, fight normally and then push for damage by switching the char in and insta summon.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Daddy Poi's Oily Gorillas on 04, March, 2016, 11:36:17 PM
Quote
If there was some kind of window popping up and showing "potential damage" before you actually attacked like in tactics games I'd be totally fine with it.
I love that idea! (And we should have it as a patch in general.) Should this damage display to the right of the enemy's name you are selecting? (You still need to account for the enemy's defenses, anyway.)

In example, something like:

Faery2 (Dmg: 11)

(Can't say if I'll actually do it or not, though.... But it may be a bit complicated without some thinking. - So it's quite possible this is one of those things I'll put off for a long time... assuming I ever get to it.)


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Salanewt on 05, March, 2016, 12:57:13 AM
Hidden: Oh I know. I mostly just brought it up for the sake of discussion; plus, it's not like it would be the only hidden thing if going by the fact that enemy elemental tables, elemental strengths/weaknesses (barring the number of exclamation marks on a line of text, which is not very intuitive), and djinn kills are also hidden features. But yeah, that would be better with an estimated damage box of some type.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 05, March, 2016, 01:48:18 AM
I didn't mean hidden in the literal sense cause there's ton of stuff that's hidden in this game. the issue is more with the complexity of the mechanic... there are just too many calculations behind... Intricate, maybe? Convoluted? I don't really know.

BTW, for starters i'll make 7+ djinn summons available 1 turn earlier by unlocking 7-djinn and coatli in the same turn. Also, I'll raise HP% damage progressively for the stronger summons.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Salanewt on 05, March, 2016, 03:53:53 AM
Okay, that should be a fair trade-off then.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 22, March, 2016, 02:55:41 AM
Just so you know, I plan to start streaming a new game of this starting with TBS tomorrow at 5pm CDT.  You'll be able to get live commentary and feedback as I play though the games.  You can find my channel over at:

https://www.twitch.tv/witchrolina/


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 22, March, 2016, 08:59:34 AM
This is great news! I think i'll be able to to watch it live today.

I've already fixed many things in my playthrough (I'm at Suhalla), here's the partial changelog:
Acheron's Grief multiplier raised to 2,3
Ceres' Legend added damage increased to 37
7+ djinn summons unlocked 1 turn earlier
Raised HP% damage for 5+ djinn summons
Guard and Page line learn Starburst at 7
Bolt User line learns Flash Bolt at 6
Jenna-Menardi dialogue at Mercury Lighthouse fixed
Haures' BP to 320
Various minor enemy tweaks
Minor fixes (Def and price) to defensive equipment
Steel Armor and Knight's Helm are sold at Shaman Village
Warrior Helm is sold at Contigo
14+ (GS) / 18+ (TLA) level djinn have higher HP. 30+ level djinn have 3 turns
Virtuous Armlet casts Ply Well

Excalibur is better on average at unleashing than Darksword, but the latter is obviously stronger with attack-based psynergies. Remember that Acheron's Grief element is already Jupiter.

I'm currently checking levels at which psynergies are learned.

My to do list:
Mage-like classes +5% HP, -5~10% Defense.
Add via formula hacking a "Magic Resistance" stat tied to classes. Something very simple... it will probably be a flat multiplier that doesn't change with tiers like Luck, that ranges from 90% to 110% and affects base damage taken. Basically, 90% M.Res means 110% damage taken from BD attacks and 110% means 90% of damage taken. This might or might not come with an elemental power boost of all enemies.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 22, March, 2016, 01:20:25 PM
Ok, by hacking it into the game, those summon rush functions you added moved out of my knowledge of the game from the editor into the code.

"For those interested, the functions I used to kill summon rushing:
http://i.imgur.com/GDTjiIx.png
http://i.imgur.com/enOlu78.png
http://i.imgur.com/agHPTFP.png

080B05E4: Called at the start of a battle, sets the current turn (02006000) to 0.
080B05F4: Called at the end of each round, increases current turn by 1.
080B060C: Called every time the Summon Flags (0200024C) are altered, it backups them into 02000248 and then sets the available summons depending on turn number."

I'm pretty sure that if I wanted to screw around with how quickly summons were added, I would be changing the first function to list the first turn as 8 or 3 or whatever I felt comfortable leaving it at and/or changing the second function to increase the per turn count to 2 or 3 or 5 per turn.

I really don't know how to alter those functions, though. Basic testing shows it's beyond what the editor is doing and I don't know anything about changing game code.

If possible, would you be willing to show give a quick step by step explaining how to even access the area you're changing?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 22, March, 2016, 05:03:37 PM
I'm assuming you don't want to make the whole thing slower.
Anyway, it's ridiculously easy to tweak and extremely flexible. All you need is your VBA emulator with memory viewer, your Windows calculator and a few info.

First, set up your screen like this: http://imgur.com/58HykcB (http://imgur.com/58HykcB)
The sequences of bytes at 080B0648 are the "filters" the 3rd formula (the one at 080B060C) uses to "restrain" summons at each turns. Basically the game generates available summons as usual, but then i force the result to pass through one of these filters to limit summons. This means that by tweaking the filters themselves, you can do whatever you want with it.
Each sequence of 8 digits is a filter (4 per line) and they are used in sequence each turn.
Turn 0 uses the filter 000300FF, Turn 1 uses 000F0FFF and so on... each turn after turn 6 (filter 1FFFFFFF) is treated as being turn 6. (Might be turn 7 or 8 on your ROM due to changes I've already done to mine for next release. And 1~2 filters might be different from my screen. Don't worry, it doesn't change anything for you).

How to generate your custom filter(s):
The windows calculator makes the whole thing a joke. If you set it up exactly like on my screen, all you need to do is to click on the zeroes on the upper half of the calculator. Each digit is a summon. So, if you change a digit to 1, it means the summon is enabled by the filter; if you leave it to zero the filter disables the summon.

From RIGHT to LEFT:
Venus, Mercury, Mars, Jupiter
Ramses, Nereid, Kirin, Atalanta
Cybele, Neptune, Tiamat, Procne
Judgement, Boreas, Meteor, Thor
Zagan, Megaera, Flora, Moloch
Ulysses, Haures, Eclipse, Coatlicue
Daedalus, Azul, Catastrophe, Charon
Iris.

The last (leftmost) 3 digits MUST remain 0. Now, you have just generated a filter. Paste the value that appears on the calculator in the memory viewer and you can start tweaking another one. Don't remove filters (you can add them but it doesn't change anything). When you've created your final filter (every summon enabled: 1FFFFFFF), paste it on the remaining filters as well.

When you're done save your edited ROM from the memory viewer. Click Save, (Address is 08000000, Size is 01000000) OK and you're done.

Obviously, if you want to test that you've done a filter correctly, the fastest way is to paste it on the turn 0 filter, enter a battle and check the summon menu (put a single djinn on standby before entering the battle).


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 22, March, 2016, 07:24:55 PM
Thank you. Your walkthrough was very easy to understand.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 22, March, 2016, 08:24:53 PM
I'm glad. By the way, how did you tweak it? I'm curious.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 23, March, 2016, 01:48:51 AM
Stream had some hiccups at first, but after that it went well.  Got all the way up to Vault, so the tutorial stuff is over.  I'll be streaming again tomorrow at the same time - hopefully minus the hiccups in the first hour.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 23, March, 2016, 02:06:01 AM
Not sure what I'm going to do yet; probably accelerate to have the "super boss, but not Iris" summons available on turn 3,4, or 5; toss-up on 4th level straight ele summons and eclipse/haures/coatlicue; ulysses is in a weird spot because he uses 4 djinn...

I really don't know what I'll do yet other than that I am 100% sure that Iris will be available turn 1. Being able to change when they show up is pretty powerful. I could easily end up with your distribution. I'm just really happy that I'm even able to change it if I'd like.



Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Chronotakular on 23, March, 2016, 02:52:34 AM
Wow, I got busy for the passed month or so and I come back to some serious discussion!

Glad to know you guys are super passionate about this. It's super cool reading all this and viewing everyone's opinions!


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 23, March, 2016, 03:57:34 PM
@Varden: maybe you're just used to summon rushes. if you start battles with djinn all set there's no way you'll end up summoning 7+ djinn by turn 3~4. In fact, it's very likely i'll forgot about this change while playing cause I know I'll never notice it myself. But yeah, like I said it couldn't be more flexible, you can literally do whatever you want with it.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 24, March, 2016, 12:04:07 AM
Well, today was a good two hour session.  Took down both the thieves and Tret, and made it to Imil.  With that, Isaac, Garet, and Ivan are all in second tier classes.  We'll be taking on the mercury lighthouse tomorrow~

Let me know if you want me to grind to get Cutting Edge so we have it vs Satty.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 24, March, 2016, 09:38:13 AM
Sadly, it still doesn't work, so i can't watch your streams at all, not just live ones. If you want to let me know your thoughts why don't you use that balanced playthrough thread again?

About Saturos... i think you should play naturally, i always grind to 12 for Cutting Edge cause i got used to it.

However, v1.34 contains changes that will influence saturos' fight a lot (resistance buffs debuffs lowered to 15/30 instead of 20/40, Ward/Resist available 1 tier earlier, so Ivan in his default class will have it against him, plus the Magic Resistance stat). So think about if you want to wait for it.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 25, March, 2016, 12:10:45 AM
Today's stream is done and archived~  Had some comically bad luck with a djinn, but other than that, had a fairly good session.  Also, really, really glad I grinded up to level 12 - dunno how I'd have handled Saturos otherwise.  Tomorrow we'll be taking on the Killer Ape, and possibly reaching the Altin mines.  Also, if the new patch is out by 5pm CDT, we'll be using it~

Also, I'll be doing this regularly, Tuesdays to Fridays, from 5pm to 7pm CDT.  I'll be posting weekly updates some times between Saturday to Monday.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 25, March, 2016, 09:39:11 PM
v1.34 will be up soon (~15 minutes).


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 25, March, 2016, 09:54:59 PM
How close we looking?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 25, March, 2016, 09:59:01 PM
The patches are already being upped. I'm finalizing the changelog... i'd say 10 minutes.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 25, March, 2016, 10:08:33 PM
Got it - I'll hold off the stream until then.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 25, March, 2016, 10:13:10 PM
v1.34 is UP. Starting post, class doc and djinn doc will be updated soon updated.

This version adds a "Magic Resistance/Warding" stats to every class. It's a value that doesn't change with tiers and acts as a multiplier to base damage taken. A character with 110% M.Res takes only 90% damage from Base Damage attacks. One with 90% M.Res instead would instead take 110% damage.

About the other changes:

Ceres' Legend is now better than Acheron's Grief (which is stronger) on average. Basically, Excalibur is better at unleashing, Darksword at channelling attack-based psynergies.

The strongest summons are available earlier and deal more damage.

Resistance buffs and debuffs lowered cause they were by far the strongest among the 3 buffs. Moreover, with the new values, it felt safe for me to make Ward and Resist available 1 tier earlier, lowering Breeze's importance in the early game of GS1.

Djinn after level 14 (GS) and 18 (TLA) got higher HP cause after that threshold the damage output increases dramatically thanks to EPAs like Ragnarok in GS and Piers joining in TLA. After 30 they got the third turn cause you have access to endgame weapons and the backup team.

The various enemy tweaks are due to my own playthrough. Nothing big... most are related to the set of abilities like changing a psynergy attack to one slightly stronger or weaker, or to maintain the original power level after the changes to some psynergies this version brings.

The changes in BD to psynergies were done with base classes in mind. I wanted to spread the psynergies in the early and mid game evenly.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 26, March, 2016, 12:39:40 AM
Well, that was a decent run today.  That Fuchin Djinn didn't give me NEAR as much trouble this time around (THANK THE GODS), and I fell into old bad habits in the Mogall Forest, which led to me having to use cheap tactics while trying to recover the PP for the boss.  This was remedied in the next town, though.  Seriously - I need to use more recovery items, I rely too much on spells, and that's bad in this patch since the game isn't a breeze anymore.

Speaking of said boss, the Killer Ape was a fun as I remember.  Good bit of difficulty, though I think Mia's boss-tier control actually made it easier on me by far.  As Cal pointed out, I have stupid good luck on those mage unleashes (though really poor luck on breaking items and djinn being spiteful).

Speaking of bad luck vs djinn, I pulled a stupid on the roaming Mars djinn north of Xian.  Should have buffed resistances, but instead I stood there and took several spells to the face like a dumbass.  Lost Isaac and had to restart due to lack of revival at the time.  Made sure to actually play intelligently on the rematch.

I'll have a week in review up in the next day or so.  Next stream is on tuesday - Will the Hyrdos Statue be as trivial as it was on my first playthrough?  How will I react to everything beyond it, as I am unfamiliar with the patch beyond Altin?  Find out next time, on Witch Plays Golden Sun!


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 26, March, 2016, 04:38:25 PM
I'm watching the parts that i missed from yesterday's stream or didn't comment on while you were live so:

About replaceable drops (like mimic in fuchin temple): nice idea, but i don't think i have space left for new icons in TLA. I'm saying TLA cause anything i add to GS must be also in tla due to passwords... so i guess the best i can do is to grab a TLA only item and port it to GS1, cause space for new icons isn't an issue there.

Psynergy tiers: as you probably already know, i never really cared about spreading psynergies evenly for dual classes. The only question i ask myself when giving them offensive psynergies is "how good should this class be at casting?". Most warrior classes are capped at 150 BP for spells and they have other roles, so they usually end up 2 of thorn/ray/froth/starburst and that's it, cause i wouldn't have any space left for other spells if i were to give them 3 or more tiers of offensive psynergies. The Brute is the class that made me answer the question above with "not good at all" so it got 2 low tier psynergies instead. Rule of thumb is that a higher attack multiplier for a warrior classes implies a crappier set of offensive psynergies.
Among casters instead low tier spells are even more rare cause they have access to the strongest ones also.

But like i always said, this is totally intended cause it encourages trying different class setups instead of sticking to one from beginning to end. That's why one of the changes this version brings is a fairer spread of offensive psynergies (especially second tiers) among base classes. Cause if you feel you're lacking power with your current setup and everything else fails, you can always go back to base classes.

About spell placement (the whole discussion about Punishment coming before Gaia in the spell list for Ivan's Oracle class)... i tried following a few rules for them that kinda reflect those of the vanilla game. Basically, ordering depends on main element and role.
About Roles: take Jenna's Justice and Miko classes for example: both have Fume and Aura, but Justice is mainly an offensive caster, so Fume, Flare and Beam first and Aura and Raise follow, while i think of the Miko class as more of a healer so it has Cure, Aura and Revive first and then Fume and Gaia. This isn't true for tri elemental classes. IIRC they all have damage first and healing after.
As for the "main element" thing... take Oracle and Worldwaker for example: both have Whirlwind and Gaia. Oracle's main element is Jupiter so Punishment and Whirlwind come first, and then Gaia follows. Worldwaker instead is mostly focused on Venus and Mercury so Gaia Prism first and Whirlwind after. Hope it makes sense for you.

Also, one of the reasons why you often find yourself having low PP, might be your high usage of djinn and summons. When you consume PP with lower stats and then you re-set the djinn, current PP are determined by the percentage of current PP to max PP. For example, if you cast Ply Well (10 PP) at full PP with 20 Max PP, your current PP become 10. If you then set your djinn and your max PP become 100, your current PP become 50, not 90. Basically, your measly Ply well was more expensive than a Pure Wish.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 28, March, 2016, 04:07:00 AM
Yeah, when you mentioned that Punishment was like Fume, it made a lot of sense to me for it to be where it was.  I try to do exactly the same thing, which is why I had the question about it.

Also, no - my low PP came from constantly using heals outside of battle.  I only use djinn and summons when I start to run low on PP - summons are my fallback measure.  The problem was that I wasn't showing the patch the proper respect and using more consumables.  The issue shouldn't be nearly as big of a problem now that I have a good stock of consumables for out of battle healing.  The other issue was with Ivan and Garet having lower PP than I'd like, and the reason for that is obvious.  Ivan always goes first, so he's always got that PP drain every battle.  As for Garet... he's Garet.  PP isn't something he gets a lot of... which kinda sucks when he's got one of the most useful elements in the game at his disposal.  Still, those two not having as much PP isn't as big a reason to go into PP restoration mode unless, like in the vs Killer Ape section, they're my healers.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 28, March, 2016, 09:12:23 PM
Cal, what's the address for your summon filter on TBS and/or how do you have summons/turn done for TBS?

Edit: thanks


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 28, March, 2016, 09:22:43 PM
08079E7C. Obviously it's the same as TLA, which also implies that only 3 filters are used: 1-2 djinn summons, 1-3 djinn summons, every summon.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 29, March, 2016, 12:03:07 AM
Alright, now I know how to adjust the turn filters for the summons and I know how to do it for both TBS and TLA, but I also know that using VBA memory editor is temporary and I'm pretty sure I need to do hex editing to edit the ROM?

I've grabbed Hex Workshop, but I'm completely lost. Mostly due to lack of documentation on VBA's memory viewer.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 29, March, 2016, 12:37:45 AM
you don't need the hex editor. the first time you asked i also told you how to save an edited rom from the hex viewer: all you need to do is click save write 08000000 as address and as size 01000000 for TLA or 00800000 for TBS. Save your "dump" as a .gba file and you've got an edited rom.

If you still want to use an hex editor, to get the addresses you just need to remove the initial "08". For example 08079E7C in the memory viewer becomes 00079E7C in the hex editor. Also, be careful when using 16-bit mode and 32-bit mode in the memory viewer, cause it flips the bytes. Basically, "07F5" in 16-bit mode or "0568F924" in 32-bit mode in the memory viewer become respectively "F507" and "24F96805" in the hex editor (The memory viewer uses the Little Endian format (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endianness)). If you want a 1:1 match with the hex editor just go back to 8-bit mode after each change.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 29, March, 2016, 01:15:32 AM
Week in review:

Most of this week was spent playing catch up.  Using the latest patch and the updated mechanics and changes on my journey to get back to where I was.  Here's the details:


1 - prologue is just as enjoyable as before, encouraging me to actively use items while the original games were a cakewalk.
2 - I find myself holding onto weapons longer than before.  Particularly with Garet, at least until I got the Elven Shirt.
3 - Obligatory disagreement about how classes and spell distribution are approached, you're heard it before.
4 - Finding out the hard way to use items more.  On-use items are still s***, but consumables are now hella useful.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 29, March, 2016, 01:39:11 AM
yeah, the only reason I asked about the hex editor was that I saved my dump file as test.gba, only for it to get saved as test.gba.dmp. After a few more tests of the same thing happening, I figured I'd just go the hex editor route. Now that I know that you just chop the first two digits off, it's pretty much cake to use.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 29, March, 2016, 01:43:44 AM
@Rolina
1- good to hear that
2- i guess that's due to the weapon categories, so that's good news as well. it means the added bonus are relevant
3- nothing can be done about this. we've been telling each other's POV for more than a year now without going anywhere.
4- might be just your bad luck with useable items, lol.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 29, March, 2016, 01:52:06 AM
@2:  Relevant, but I think they should be weighted a bit differently.  More on this when I develop the tools to show of my ideas a bit more.  I'll swing them by you and see what you think of them.
@3:  Yeah, thus why at this point it's just an offhand obligatory comment. :P


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 29, March, 2016, 01:55:52 AM
Intresting. I'll be waiting for that then.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Seestern on 29, March, 2016, 06:07:34 AM
Hey found this hack a few days ago and really enjoyed it so far:)

I just finished the fight against Agatio and karst and had only an Issue with shebas tendency to get downed especially in djinnfights , but it does Add to the difficulty

Im looking forward to what kind of surprises the Superbosses will offer and i really want to try the cursed mage set as it sounds very interesting.

I DID get a look at the new endgame weapon Alactors mace... I dropped it four times from seagulls... i believe they are suppossed to be drop Sacred feathers :D


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 29, March, 2016, 06:19:53 AM
@#$%, I forgot to mention that. Cal, seagulls have your super-mace dropping at a 1/2 rate.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 29, March, 2016, 09:21:32 AM
Good grief... that's what happens when you don't test things on a separate rom. Well, thanks for reporting guys, I'll upload a fix for that in a few hours.
Quote
yeah, the only reason I asked about the hex editor was that I saved my dump file as test.gba, only for it to get saved as test.gba.dmp.
you can just rename the dumped file afterwards to remove the .dmp part.

EDIT: v1.34 hotfix is up. I'll edit this post later to explain the other changes.

Incantatrix got Fume because Jenna lacked a heavily Mars-oriented tri elemental class, and the class line itself became strictly worse than the Miko line after the former lost Revive.
Dragon Cloud and Epicenter became added damage cause a single target BD spell for the worst tri elemental caster was basically a wasted slot. Also, on average Epicenter should be better than Quick Strike against bosses.
The Ninja's Annihilation now is about as strong as a Samurai's Quick Strike.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 02, April, 2016, 01:29:16 AM
Looks like I'll have a new version this coming week.

Anywho, here's the week in review:

1 - Took down the Hyrdos Statue.  VERY MUCH improved over last time - not sure what did it, but it wasn't a joke anymore.  Did it only have one turn before or something?
2 - Made it through the Lamakhan Desert.  This area is always annoying, even in vanilla.  Boss was tough, though mostly because I couldn't heal poison fast enough.  Began to spread around a few antidotes to each person after this.
3 - Found out that revival djinn aren't garbage anymore.  Thanks, Caledor!  Don't have to spam reset on a KO anymore now. 
4 - Backtracking to get new thiiiiiings.
5 - Bring on the Kraken! F*** THE KRAKEN.  Stupid break being a hard counter to my strategies GRRR.  Still don't think it should auto-succeed, but it's tied into the ability - not exactly something that can be easily fixed.  I still think it should be a separate check vs each buff, and have diminishing success rates rather than a full party effect.  I'm cool with it having a high enough success rate to nearly neutralize the central target... but I don't expect this to be a change, as I imagine recoding how break works would be a freaking nightmare.  I will copy paste this every time I face a boss with break, by the way, but will change out the boss' name as appropriate.
6 - Crossbone 1-4 were simple enough.  Fights were kind of challenging, but not infuriating.
7 - Went through and got some more djinn, including an early jump ahead to Suhulla Desert.  Two people can reach 6 djinn classes now.
8 - HOURS OF LUCKY FOUNTAIN.  Lucky wheels was done in like, fifteen minutes, though.
9 - Got Babi.  Irked at the Prophet's Hat receiving no upgrade.  I want my witch hat useful, dammit!  PP Regen, Luck, Max PP, elemental power, SOMETHING...  One point of defense isn't worth the -20 speed.
10 - Did the colosso.  Also, wait - Ivan loses access to growth? Why?
11 - HOUR OF LUCKY FOUNTAIN.  Stupid last hood being stupid annoying to get.

Seriously, F*** the lucky fountain.  Oh, I got one of everything.  But when it's down to getting specific things, it hates me.  It took me an HOUR to get that last Black Hood. >_>


Goals for next week: 

To Lunpa!  Gonna get everyone in Tri-element classes for a while afterwards.
To Crossbone V2!  Gotta get that seventh djinn.  Also Cleric's Ring.  I hope it's not -10 luck still, I think that's too much of a negative.  IMO, it's better to have the negative stuff on the cursed gear and just have no stat change on the Cleric's Ring, but that's just me I guess.
Vs Tempest Lizard!  Or which ever one that boss is.  I actually outran it once... I wonder if I can do it again?  Gonna try for it. :3c

I think I should have this game done in the next couple weeks.  After that, Imma take a break before TLA though.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 02, April, 2016, 01:50:19 AM
1 - Don't remember what did it. It's been like 10 releases since i fixed that, lol.
3 - You're welcome. Actually, this is among the few things i wanted to fix since before i started working on the mod itself. Drain and Revive having a chance to miss is something i always found ridiculous.
5 - Break is gonna stay as it is so i guess this will become something like the class system argument :P
6 - Good
9 - I'm inclined towards +Max PP for prohet's hat, but there may be a reason if this hasn't been done until now so i'll have to check that first.
10 - Cause it's absurdly difficult for me to find space for weak spell lines, especially in mage classes.

* SPOILER * Cleric's ring is still -10 Luck and i have no plans for changing that. The way it is fits perfectly with my concept of dark items users. Also, on many dark items i don't even have the space for the luck drop and even if i had it it'd be tricky to balance luck drops on them all, taking into account every possible setup and similar headaches. So, a single drop on the ring that the cursed gear user wears was like the perfect solution.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: VardenSalad on 02, April, 2016, 02:29:27 AM
Hey Role, I know that WAY back when, you tried tinkering about with the 54-3-2-1 elemental level set-up in order to make it so that party characters would be weak to their opposing element instead of their symbiotic element. I also know that it initially didn't work, at all, and broke your patch.

In the 5 years since then, have you or anyone else figured out how those numbers work and how to mess around with them?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: JamietheFlameUser on 02, April, 2016, 06:23:09 AM
Hey Role, I know that WAY back when, you tried tinkering about with the 54-3-2-1 elemental level set-up in order to make it so that party characters would be weak to their opposing element instead of their symbiotic element. I also know that it initially didn't work, at all, and broke your patch.

In the 5 years since then, have you or anyone else figured out how those numbers work and how to mess around with them?
I think it just screws up which class values represent what element combination in some fashion? Not sure.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 02, April, 2016, 07:26:21 PM
It's because of how it handles classes.  It could still be done, but you'd have to completely change the order the classes are in.  The fault here lies with the fact that it looks for element level, and not djinn.

@5:  Actually, the reason I figure Break will stay as it is is because you'd have to completely reprogram it.  I'm not about to ask you to do something that intensive.
@10:  That's funny, because I could easily find a location for it. :P  Though, I do have a question - why does Wild Mage get Planet Diver instead of a base damage spell similar to it?  For example, if Punishment worked by class upgrades rather than as Fume does in vanilla.  I thought it odd to give a caster class something that used attack as its base.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Salanewt on 02, April, 2016, 07:43:57 PM
Wow, this has come a really long way; nice work!

Can't remember, did you ask me to help out with something a while back?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 02, April, 2016, 07:50:39 PM
5- No, I'm really fine with how Break is now. And yes, the different check thing could be very hard to accomplish, but i could still give it a chance to fail and lower is range from All to 7, greatly reducing its effectiveness on targets different from the main one. I've stated before that there are things i'd like to change but don't get touched cause it'd be too much of hassle or too difficult. Break definitively isn't among them.

10- Wild Mage is meant to be odd. It's the 4th tri-elemental Warrior-Mage hybrid that got added with the last big class update.
Quoting myself from back then (when i created the Wild Mage and Worldwaker lines):
Quote
Worldwaker & Fury: Dark Shaman was so underwhelming that i quickly gave up trying to save it. Then I noticed that 3 out of 4 sets of tri-elemental classes had a warrior-mage hybrid (Jonin, Valkyrie, General). So I moved the Warlock to Venus, buffed it and created the 4th hybrid as a counterpart to the Valkyrie. It also helps addressing redundancy, cause the Fury is something completely unprecedented. But obviously I realized all of this only AFTER i was done with creating it, cause as soon as i imagined Mia casting Planetary i was already done with thinking. :P
Being a hybrid, the Wild Mage has more HP, less PP, more Attack and more Defence than your average mage. Also, at Fury tier it has an attack multiplier of 160%, the same of Paladin and Shogun to name two. It isn't just a caster ;)

@Squirtle: Hmm, I don't remember asking you something recently. Thanks a lot though. :D

EDIT: Here's the partial changelog for v1.35 (still don't know when it'll be released). Many or those changes come from observing Rolina play and my own playthrough.

Potent Cure BP to 350. PP cost to 15
Classes tweaked: Phalanx, Sorcerer, Angel, Justice, Admiral, Radiant, Psy Champion, Sun Champion, Heretic, Incantatrix
Fixed PP growth for Chaos Lord
Elven Shirt, Water jacket, Black Hood, Black Garb, Kimono, Cocktail Dress, Feathered Robe, Prophet's Hat, Aerial Gloves, Spirit Gloves, Jester's Armlet, Astral Circlet, Fear Helm, Demon Circlet, Safety Boots, Berserk Circlet tweaked
Spirit Gloves from TBS renamed to Mystery Gloves to avoid confusion with Spirit Gloves from TLA

Phalanx: -5% Dif, +5% Agi
Sorcerer: +5% Agi, -5% PP in the first 3 tiers only
Angel: -5% PP in the first 3 tiers only
Justice: -5% PP in the first 3 tiers only
Admiral: +5% Agi
Radiant: +5% HP, -5% Agi, gains Raise and Guard, Loses CP, Restore and Break
Psy Champion: Loses Ray gains Whirlwind
Sun Champion: +5% Agi, Loses Raise
Chaos Lord: PP Growth fixed
Heretic: +5% PP, -5% Agi, Loses Beam and Impair, gains Volcano and Demon Spear
Incantatrix: -10% Agi, +20% Luck, Loses Impact gains Weaken

Elven Shirt: -5 Agi
Water Jacket: -10 Me.Res, -10 Ma.Res
Black Hood: -5 Agi
Black Garb: +5 Agi, +10 J.Res
Kimono: +10 Ma.Res
Cocktail Dress: +5 Max PP
Feathered Robe: -20 Agi
Prophet's Hat: +20 MaxPP
Aerial Gloves: -5 Agi
Spirit Gloves: +5 MaxPP
Devil's Crown: +5 MaxPP
Jester's Armlet: -5 MaxPP
Astral Circlet: +5 MaxPP
Fear Helm: +10 MaxPP
Demon Circlet: +5 MaxHP
Berserk Circlet: +5 MaxPP
Safety Boots: Price to 600, bonus changed to MaxHP +5


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 03, April, 2016, 01:34:51 PM
5 - Would that work?  It's my understanding through my testing that break is programmed always to succeed.

@10 - Wow.  You and I view these very differently - moreso than dual element classes and spell progression.  My belief is that the character matters more than classes for where they stand on the sliding scale of Warrior to Caster.  Ivan and Mia I don't think should ever have those "hybrid" classes in the way you approach them, while they make tons of sense for Jenna.  Granted, in my system, Jenna still wouldn't have them, but based on what you said here, it makes tons of sense for them to be one of Jenna's main features, given that she's a jack of stats.  Makes sense for her to be a jack of trades too - I could see her Jupiter class being more mage like, while her mercury class would have warrior hybriding folded into it.

@Elven Shirt AGI - Isn't that starting to defeat the point of the Elven Shirt?  It's supposed to be one of the better speed items in the game.  You already nerfed it from +50% to +15, which I still think is fine for it, especially since it gives you a solid choice of whether or not you want to upgrade for better defense or keep the faster speed.

@Feathered Robe - Isn't that basically removing all the AGI from it?  Would it not be better to take from both the AGI and Power boosts?  Same with the Aerial gloves.  Those nerfs are large enough they seem to be undermining the point of the gear.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 03, April, 2016, 02:24:06 PM
5- It's just a guess but break is basically an effect so you can set the base success chance to whatever you want. If you make it dependant on the target's luck the same rules that apply to debuff would apply to break as well. And that includes diminishing rates for other targets if the range isn't set to "All". I haven't tested it but i can't see why it shouldn't work this way. But again, i won't change it.

10- Normally I wouldn't have done it, but it's great for addressing redundancy. Mia Ivan and Sheba have 3 tri-elemental casters that heal and have Luck above average. It's only fitting to add a berserker-style class weak to control to balance out that aspect. Even more so considering that Jenna's hybrid is more defensive (again, to complement the Heretic, that is all about offense). Long story short every piece fit. There's also the fact that in GS1 i lack a strong mars based offense like Fume.

Agility changes: they are still pending. For starters i wanted to balance out the bonuses by numbers only. Then i'll reconsider them all with actual testing one by one. I posted the values before the second phase cause i thought it'd be better having some feedback on that so thanks. Just one thing: i don't care how strong the original effect was, so the fact that elven shirt was originally +50% is pointless to me.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: JamietheFlameUser on 03, April, 2016, 04:56:40 PM
I suspect Break is coded in such a way that it ignores any attempt to change its effect rate, but even so it should still be able to miss against non-primary targets.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 03, April, 2016, 05:33:42 PM
@Break:  I suppose it's just my dislike of something that powerful and almost universally punishing to the player.  I mean, it's not like the player really gets to take advantage of it like the enemies do, and giving it to most of the stronger bosses just feels cheap to me.  It's kind of like Djinn Storm in that regard - it's more of a "F*** you" to the player in its current form rather than simply a serious threat.  It's why I think that luck should play a factor, but if you have less than 15, you're gonna face a 100% dispell rate for all your buffs... but only for the central target.  Checking each buff individually also means that there's varying degrees of severity - it's not just all or nothing, but could instead have effects that cause the player to adapt on the fly to what's most important, rather than spam casting buffs all over again.

@Wild Mage:  Ah, that's a good point - I'd not thought of the lack of good mars animations to use.  It'd be nice if we could import the animations from TLA to TBS...

@Agility:  I think that if they had an original effect, that effect should be taken into consideration.  The Elven Shirt was the best Agility boosting item in the whole game, and was a major part of the True Godspeed Ronin setup for Garet.  Basically, its rather high speed boost made it useful even when it was completely outclassed in terms of defense.  As such, it makes sense that speed still be a major factor for this piece of equipment.  Even if you remove the multiplier, I think it should have one of the higher speed bonuses of all equipment so that it still fulfills the same purpose it once did.  That's why I didn't complain about the speed nerf to the Black Hood - I actually agreed with it.  I think its speed bonus should be less than the Elven Shirt.  Remember, just because you don't agree with how something was done doesn't mean that that thing doesn't have its purpose.  Swapping out its speed boost to be minor makes the Elven Shirt a throw away piece of gear, not worth holding on to.  And I mean to the point that a mundane piece of gear that just upgrades defense would be just fine.  If anything, I'd say buff its agility, but lower the defense.  So maybe  +5 Agl, but -2 or 3 Def to balance it out.  Its whole point is part of the speed set.  Likewise, many of these things you posted are just to nix speed, which basically negates half the point of the items.  Maybe you're worried about redundancy in gear... but in that case, would it not make more sense to simply tweak balance instead of flat nerfing?  I know the Aeolian Cassock and the Feathered Robe were similar, but that the Feathered Robe also boosted speed.  Would not the speed boost be the distinguishing factor there?  Would it not make more sense to nerf the elemental power and resist boosts so that if you wanted the raw elemental stats, you'd go with the Cassock over the Robe?  But you nerfed the speed, making the Robe less appealing over the Cassock's greater jupiter defenses...


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 03, April, 2016, 06:55:46 PM
@Break is punishing if the players plays in a way that he deserves to be punished. Seriously. Anyway, Break could be coded in a million of different ways all of which would be good if you take into account every other implication.
What other implications?
1- Break doesn't deal damage so the enemy boss loses a turn.
2- Said boss at best has 3 turns, while your team has 4.
3- A fully buffed team can easily destroy anything. Break is necessary.

The Break you want is viable if:
1- The move deals damage
2- Enemies are stronger
3- The Enemy AI is considerably smarter at using it

Without any of those 3 a change to Break isn't viable IMHO.

About Djinn Storm, i don't really dislike it. For example, I like how it poses an extreme challenge for the player, something that feels very good if he/she overcomes such a trial. It's a move that a final boss and/or a superboss deserve.

Quote
I think (Elven Shirt) should have one of the higher speed bonuses of all equipment so that it still fulfills the same purpose it once did.
I agree with that only if such bonus is unique. But there are a lot of equipments that buff agility. What's wrong with giving a different item (Ninja Garb?) the same purpose of the Elven Shirt? Just because players are familiar with this or that? Please, no. I'm adamantly against this way of thinking. This and vanilla golden sun are different. Don't try to shoehorn old strategies, adapt and try to find new ones.

BTW, i've started the second phase (testing) and i've got to say that most of the agility nerfs got already reverted or decreased.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 04, April, 2016, 01:03:35 AM
"Familiar with?"  You misunderstand me.  The question I asked was "What was the purpose of this armor supposed to be?  How can I do a better job than vanilla of representing that?"  That's an easy thing to do, especially when you consider that end-game vanilla gear really doesn't have much choice.  However, if you can look at the pieces and say "how can I make these two similar items more distinct from one another" and "how can I change this, the obvious answer, into one of a few choices instead?"

Look at Riot Gloves vs Big Bang Gloves.  Here, Riot Gloves boost both attack and crit chance, which is pretty powerful compared to the other end-game gear, the Big Bang Gloves with their +40 Mars power.  However, if you were to drop the Defense of the Riot gloves so that it's a noticeable change, looking at the Big Bang Gloves as a defensive option while Riot gloves are attack at cost of defense, then it becomes a notable change that also gives a better sense of choice.  I'm not asking you to change things based on what players are familiar with - you've changed the mechanics, so it doesn't make sense.  The better question is what the purpose of the item is.

The elven shirt is clearly supposed to be a notable boost to agility, but nothing later compares to it, so one could argue that it's speed at the cost of defense.

@Djinnstorm:  Are you familiar with the concept of "Artificial Difficulty"?  Where the game stops feeling challenging, and starts feeling cheap instead?  Challenging is if it is a chance associated with each individual djinn.  It's powerful damaging effect, but not crippling.  The way it is in vanilla is crippling, though, and gives the impression of the game being cheap.  Dullahan isn't a good boss - he's a shining example of a bad one, and is infamous for making people devolve into summon rushing just to win.  With how things are going, I'm not going to be facing Dullahan in my run.  Simply put, between the buff, the djinn storms, and now the inability for me to summon strong summons until later, I don't think it's worth facing him unless I grind to super high levels.  Want a good boss?  Talos/Deadbeard.  Sentinel.  Star Magician.  These are good, challenging bosses, but NONE of them are cheap.  Hell, Star Magician is known for being a tough fight, but never for forcing people to devolve into cheap attacks.  If Dullahan is who I have to face to get Iris (a summon I will basically NEVER use anyways), then what the hell is the point?  There's no reward.  What, he drops the "mind ribbon?"  So?  All that does is take up an inventory slot.  There's a difference between challenging and frustrating.  You want it to be challenging.  But not frustrating - if the player feels it's cheap, it just encourages them to be cheap as well.

@Break:  The enemies ARE stronger.  You made them so.  I don't buff nearly as much in vanilla.  Hell, I use djinn and summons in your hack, things I never do in vanilla outside maybe Opening Megearas and vs Valukhar (I use djinn like they're equipment usually).  I've had to constantly change my strategies here, even resorting to using consumables far more than before and even stalling to recover PP before bosses when in Vanilla I'd not have worried about it. You've watched me change my strategies after being punished for playing like I'm on vanilla, especially when relying on spell heals out of battle.  On top of that, I'm pretty sure I've suggested adding break effects to various enemy attacks, so technically by what I've been advocating for, both 1 and 2 would be in effect.  Hell, you KNOW I've been a big proponent of having a greater use of abilities with added effects being more prevalent.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Salanewt on 04, April, 2016, 06:15:05 AM
Jamie/Break: Oh no, you can totally change its effect rate and it will work. At least in GS2.

As for this whole "should be able to fail thing", Caledor has some pretty good points against it unless the success rate is considerably higher than it tends to be for other ailments. Even then Caledor might have to balance several different enemies again, to ensure that any changes made work well with what they have in mind for the hack.

Djinnstorm: My only issue with it is that it and other moves like it aren't introduced until near the end of the second game, so it feels like a last-minute addition to help a select few bosses deal with summons. Almost as if they realized "oh, summons are broken; maybe we should have actually tried using them before we finished making this mostly unoriginal two-part sentence simulator with battle mechanics" a couple months before launch. I could see it feeling less cheap if those types of of move were more common throughout the game.

Not really sure how/if Caledor made djinn moves more common or anything (now waiting for the patch to be done), just my thoughts on the matter.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 04, April, 2016, 09:00:42 AM
"Familiar with?"  You misunderstand me.
Great. Then evereything's fine. Sorry but I had to be sure this wasn't the case.

Quote
Djinnstorm:  Are you familiar with the concept of "Artificial Difficulty"?
Just read it. I partly agree with what you said. There's no doubt the developers took the easy way out when deciding how to make Dullahan "difficult". There's no doubt Sentinel and Star Magician are more enjoyable than him (just not Deadbeard. All you had to do against that idiot is seal him). But if you think that Djinn Storm alone forces you to resort to djinn rush or seal that move cause there's no other way for you to win, then you're wrong. I lost count of how many times i beat him in hard mode TLA and i always faced djinn storm/charon head on cause i didn't know i could seal that. It's perfectly doable. Actually, if there's one move that worries me, that's Dark Contact. The very first thing i did right after i gave Drain a flat 100% success rate was to halve the HP healed by that move.

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if the player feels it's cheap, it just encourages them to be cheap as well.
That's up to the player. I have no control over what people might or might not feel. There are also players who say "bring it on" for example. That's why i'm okay with dullahan being not that rewarding... he's mostly here for the challenge. whether said player wants to take it or not is totally up to him.

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The enemies ARE stronger.
If buffs are less vulnerable to break they need to be even stronger.

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Hell, you KNOW I've been a big proponent of having a greater use of abilities with added effects being more prevalent.
Of curse I know, but we still lack the third one. Which is by far the most important, cause i'm pretty sure that if we try to add a break effect to various attacks, the enemies would be absurdly inept at using them. Like attacking lightly buffed (or not buffed at all) party members cause the move still deals damage.

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Not really sure how/if Caledor made djinn moves more common or anything (now waiting for the patch to be done), just my thoughts on the matter.
What do you mean with "made djinn moves more common" and "waiting for the patch to be done"?


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 04, April, 2016, 11:05:24 AM
@Squirtle: I've always believed that the rate should be high enough to pretty much negate all of the central target's buffs unless they have a luck build.

@Deadbeard:  Fight him normally and he's a tough fight.  IIRC, the only way to get a seal on him is to use a djinn for a guaranteed seal.

@Dullahan:  I never said it forces you to do anything.  I said people fell back on summon rushing.  Dullahan is a puzzle boss with no hints at the answer to the puzzle - basically causing people to resort to banging their head against a wall until they come up with something that works.  It wasn't until we could look into code that we figured it out, which is why many people resorted to summon rushing.  Also, if a move is universally seen as being cheap by everyone but you, maybe you're the one looking at it wrong?

@Break:  So basically you're not satisfied doing this unless you can make buffs an absolutely necessary yet non-viable strategy at the same time?  Enemies are far more difficult in your hack than in vanilla, and I'd hate to face them on hard mode.  Even normal battles can be stressful and encourage the use of buff and summon strategies.  And you think that they need to be harder?  But not only that, but that the enemies we're now being forced to either grind/overlevel against, or face being punished for using the buffs we'd have to use against them.  I haven't yet fought a boss where I'm not out of PP by the end, and that's AFTER going out of my way to restore my PP just before the boss.  Had I not played the game before and gone into this fresh, I'd have fallen far more than I have, and most certainly against the Killer Ape, where I had to resort to summon strategies to keep from using spells while I tried to recover PP.

This may seem an odd question, but...  Have YOU played your own hack?  I don't mean testing it, I mean playing it all the way through.  I think you're underestimating things.  There's also several things you may want to read regarding how to handle difficulty.

http://gamedevelopment.tutsplus.com/articles/hard-mode-good-difficulty-versus-bad-difficulty--gamedev-3596
https://gamedesignconcepts.wordpress.com/2009/08/20/level-16-game-balance/

As a general rule, games are harder than the developer believes them to be.  They have a far more in-depth understanding of the innards of a game than the player.  This is something that recently, with the Mario Maker game on WiiU, level makers have come to realize.  Though this is not a platformer, the same principle applies.  Play through your game alongside me, in your own way.  Learn first hand that I think you're underestimating your changes.


Now, I'm not saying you have to change how break works, I do expect you to at least start having a more open mind about it's nature.  In its current form, Break is more of a punishment to the player than a viable skill for both sides.  Foes don't buff enough to make it worth breaking them, while many bosses only have the spell to punish the player.  What should happen is that break should encourage different strategies, not enforce them.  And I mean on both sides - having foes that buff more often to make them a bigger threat encourages the player to use break (granted, as a level 30 spell, this is only ever an option in TLA), while on the other end, it encourages other strategies without completely crippling the player.  Or, and here's a crazy idea, give us more availability for debuffs.  If you've been watching my playthroughs, you'll see that I mostly use buffs because that's mostly all I get - I had to freaking hunt down res debuffs in that last session. 


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 04, April, 2016, 12:03:39 PM
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Also, if a move is universally seen as being cheap by everyone but you, maybe you're the one looking at it wrong?
There's no wrong nor right here. Heck, I think I've never stated I was "right" in 63 pages of discussion. That's just how i look at things. You might agree or not, simple as that.

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So basically you're not satisfied doing this unless you can make buffs an absolutely necessary yet non-viable strategy at the same time?
Enemies are far more difficult in your hack than in vanilla, and I'd hate to face them on hard mode.
Not at all. Buffs are very useful but if you go overboard like stacking 3 buffs in a single turn you're asking for punishment. For example, if you cast a single buff per turn with your 4 man team against a boss that has 3 turns, the chances to be punished become zero. Why zero? Cause the best said boss can do is catch up in turns spent, since he'd gain the same amount of turns you spent by casting them. While you enjoyed those buffs for all these turns. It's already a win-win situation no matter how I look at it. I think break is necessary cause if you buff a lot any fight becomes a breeze. Against a weaker break, a start like Forge, Breeze, Megaera and a random fourth move, followed by resist impact would become so overused that it'd annoy the hell out of anyone after a couple times. To sum it up: Break is a tool some bosses have in order to be sure that the player doesn't go overboard.

@TLA Hard Mode: This mod is TOTALLY NOT supposed to be enjoyable in hard mode. I've stated many times i'd love to reduce the stat multipliers for hard mode.

I'm playing my mod right now. I'm at Lalivero, with Lunpa already done. I'm trying to stay ahead of you by a small margin so that i've already played any part you struggle with and it's been not too long ago from that so i can remember clearly.
And I have to say it's fairly easy for me, which is totally fine cause I know perfectly what to do at any point. And by fairly easy I mean: never bought healing (literally: zero herbs, corn and nuts), never run out of PP thanks to Mountain Waters despite using spells quite a lot in order to keep random battles short, never used summons/defensive djinn/buffs against random enemies. Maybe I've used djinn like Flint twice or thrice until now to deliver the final blow in a random battle. And finally, I walked to recover PP only twice: before Tret and before Saturos. BTW, If an enemy forces you to grind/overlevel i've done it wrong.

@Break. I've said there are a million ways to make it right. I've thought about it many times since the discussion came up in the Balancing Discussion thread. The vast majority of the ideas I had got killed by "I need a smarter AI".

@More debuffs: That's something i'm currently working on.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Misery on 04, April, 2016, 01:47:06 PM
Hmm, it's been quite some time since I said anything here, but I'm seeing a few things I'd like to comment on.

About Break, what it does in practice for bosses that have it is to turn any of your buffs into a trade of one of your actions for one of the boss's. It's an effective but unconventional mechanic, certainly not one players should be expected to plan around, which seems like reason enough not to design gameplay around it. Another reason is that it undermines some class variety, since it makes little difference which buffs a class has. Stat changes are also one added layer of complexity in a system that leaves very little room for complexity, the rest boils down to hurt and heal aside from the djinn system. I feel that putting break on bosses instead of considering the possibility of buffed stats when balancing essentially just dumbs the strategy down.

As for using djinn to buff, one may want to consider putting them on the same level as other target-all buffs (whether that is one or two stages is obviously up to the designer). They're already usable regardless of class, have no PP cost, and free up djinn for a summon. I don't think there's any need for them to also be stronger.

About Djinn Storm, when the player has a backup party and full revive, it feels like fair game, as long as the boss in question doesn't have a move with enough damage to instantly down four Djinn Stormed characters. It's really the only way to put pressure on the party under those conditions. It still needs to have sufficiently long intervals, the way it currently does - completely random Djinn Storm would make the battles that have it too luck dependent.

But on a different note, I want to give my thanks for the summon gating mechanic. It  prevents bypassing the turn cost of summons without getting in the way of anything else. What I proposed way back was a system where you'd have to manually unleash every djinn that was required for the summon, but setting djinn to standby in preparation for summons is part of the game too so it's kind of hard to argue for. The gating comes with its own balancing issue, being that when you enable a summon you allow any number of it, but overall, I think it seems like the best solution. Personally I think every summon should be available from turn 5 though, since it does not realistically take longer than to set them up even before considering the djinn cost reductions in this patch.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: dive_darkness on 04, April, 2016, 03:40:22 PM
Alright, first post about TLA.

Pretty straightforward start. The first few enemies are weak. Was surprised by the ant since it hurts a lot, but killed it without any problems. Now, first thing to notice: Sheba is made of sugar now. When damages rains, she just melt down. And enemies hit harder than before.

Kandor temple:
Amazes are crap. Deal 10-12 damage with best equipment at that moment, and they give only 6 exp.
Now, nothing too terrible if you just start all normal fights by summoning venus (it helps saving a loooooooot of pp).
The mimic was harder than I thought. Still beat it on my first try with Venus + fire wall.

The monkeys are luck based. You must equip the mysterious card, and spam the blinding spell every turn and hope it proc. Spamming fire wall in hope to get their hp down and heal with sheba.
Also note that every herb used by the monkeys will basically nullify one fire wall. So just hope they spam the herbs on the same monkey again and again. Otherwise you'll just run out of pp without killing any and die.
Conclusion:  very luck based, maybe much easier with items.

PS: still playing without using any item if I can.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: JamietheFlameUser on 04, April, 2016, 03:48:43 PM
Now, first thing to notice: Sheba is made of sugar now. When damages rains, she just melt down. And enemies hit harder than before.
Fun fact, in vanilla GS Sheba is actually the bulkier of the two Wind Seers. She has higher Defence growth than Ivan (180% growth rate versus his 160% growth rate iirc).


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: dive_darkness on 04, April, 2016, 04:28:21 PM
Sheba is hardcore. I think there should be something like a secret special class just for her that gives her 999 atk, and only physical psy.


On another note, I'm standing in front of madras now.
Djinns. Again. Okay, the first mercury was "hard", because his psy hits hard. Same for Jupiter. Mars in Dehkan is a joke, his psy doesn't hurt at all, and prism (used by Jenna) does more damages than using echo with Felix. Same for the Venus djinn in front of madras.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: JamietheFlameUser on 04, April, 2016, 05:09:00 PM
Sheba is hardcore. I think there should be something like a secret special class just for her that gives her 999 atk, and only physical psy.
Of the two Wind Seers, Ivan has higher Attack and Speed, while Sheba has higher HP and Defence. So if she's made of sugar, either that's because her base class has less bulk than Ivan's for no good reason (since that's the opposite of their styles in the normal game), or you can have fun nightmares imagining what Ivan is like in the modded version of GS1.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 04, April, 2016, 07:22:32 PM
@Misery
What would be totally wrong is making break an every turn occurrence. As things stand now a 3 turn boss has a 46% chance to cast it each turn on average. Also consider that the first turn you buff from 0 he won't cast it so the whole thing boils down to 1 break in 3 turns. Also, not all bosses have it. Maybe less thaaround half? Don't remember.

Djinn storm is not random at all and has never been as such, not even in vanilla. Both enemies that use it have a sequential attack pattern that has been carefully planned out.

You're welcome for the summon mechanic. I thought you'd like it ;)
As for turn numbers I think you gain Charon at T5 so basically only Iris is left out.

@Sheba/Ivan
Please... read the friggin' first post before writing the same thing 4 times. It's written under the first spoiler: Sheba and Ivan had their stats swapped. Sheba is now the frailest character. Even more-so in her base class. You can even check the exact numbers in the class doc.

About everything else, thanks for reporting Dive. Sadly I won't be able to look at those things before i finish TBS but you can be sure i'll keep your tips in mind when I start TLA. :)


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 04, April, 2016, 07:27:59 PM
@Djinn Storm/Misery: Which Both Djinn Storm users do - Dullahan specifically follows Djinn Storm up with Charon, while the Doom Dragon has reached the point of that fight when he starts spamming Cruel Ruin, which is basically Judgement in Base Power and Iris in HP% damage before those summons got nerfed.  Granted, that's his vanilla form, but still - both Djinn Storms follow up Djinn Storm with ridiculously powerful attacks, negating any class setups you had, nixing djinn stat bonuses, and of course now that we have a right and proper nerfed revive, preventing any real recovery from happening.

@Break:  The biggest problems with break in this hack in particular is the near absence of debuffs, and the fact that monsters that use the skill don't really debuff at all.  The counter to buffs should never be break, but debuffs that not only negate the effects of buffs, but linger, preventing them from being reapplied.  What's more, this doesn't come across as a counter, but as the boss wasting the player's time.

Let's look at other options the players have too:  Ailments are basically useless for the most part as is the case with most jRPGs, and while stun is actually quite effective in this hack, the guys who have break are also immune to it.  Psy Seal is useless since most monsters use 0PP skills anways, many of which are stronger than base damage spells could be, despite what Caledor may feel about Deadbeard.  As for debuffs, they aren't perfectly accurate, but could arguably be more useful than buffs if we ever had freaking access to them.  Like, what the hell?  All I see are buffs everywhere.  Even in the djinn, most of the debuffs are debuff+damage, even the only speed debuff in the game got that treatment.  I shouldn't have to hunt down maledictions, you know.  I don't stick to a single class - I change classes regularly.  You've watched me do this - I'll get a new djinn and look to find a new balance often.  I'm heading to Lunpa tomorrow, and I've already gone through 3-4 class spreads.  Debuffs were so rare I had to go out of my way to look for them in my last stream when I actively needed to use them for what I was trying to do.  Seriously - soooo much stuff buffs, and because of that many of these classes don't seem to have a real identity.  Why the heck does the mystic knight class have a full buff suite?  Given my more character-focused approach to things, here's basically how I'd approach supports:

Isaac:  Ailments and Debuffs
Garet:  Buffs and Debuffs
Ivan:  Buffs and Ailments
Mia:  Buffs and Recovery (Drain, Antidote, etc - the stuff listed as recovery in my spreadsheets)

Would there be a few exceptions?  Of course - particularly with recovery spells (NOT HEALING, but recovery - I consider those separate types of spells).  However, everyone would have their main two, with other sprinkled in rarely.  This gives the characters a clearer purpose.  Do I expect you to follow this?  Hell no.  this isn't my hack, I shouldn't dictate what should be in it.  But if I'm being railroaded into a buff setup with no real alternatives save "damage and heal", then to hell with claims that break isn't frustrating.  It is.  It's not a counter, it's designed to waste my time.  Counter is fine, and I will adapt.  But waiting my time is something I'm never fond of.  I have little reason to use break ever.  Foes just don't buff one another much - they usually work by buffing only themselves with some 0pp monster thing or are solos with abilities that don't have added effects.

So you want me to do something other than buffs?  Freaking support it.  If you want me to use more debuffs, actually give me them.  If you want me to use ailments, lower enemy luck.  If you want me to use recovery spells, have foes use more ailments against me, while also lowering damage taken so I don't have to opt for healing instead.  If you want me to find break useful, not only make break learnable at a reasonable level, but give foes a better way to buff themselves so that it's worth using in the first place.  And if you want me to ever see break as not infuriating, either nerf it so it's no longer a "f*** you", or replace it with debuffs that better act to counter buffs.  Or I dunno, do ALL of that, since it gives me more options to work with.  Just waltzing in and saying "yeah, I think it's just fine, and I beat dullahan on hard soooo many times" makes you seem like a bit of an unreasonable jerk rather than someone who's actually listening to feedback.  

As things stand, I don't think I'll be wasting my time facing Dullahan.  Things are more difficult than they really need to be on normal mode, which is only exasperated by your comment about hard mode.  Summons can't really be used at will, I have to work up for them.  And Iris?  Iris was useless in vanilla.  Not only is she still kinda useless given her cost even after your nerf, but I can't even throw her at normal mobs for sh*ts and giggles thanks to your change to summons... so egads man, what the hell is the point?  Bragging rights?  I'm not a kid.  I turn 29 next month - I have better things to do with my time than go up against an even harder Dullahan with a set of classes that are actually limiting my options, against a boss that can not only negate those options with break, but can say F*** you to my class set up AND Total Party Kill me on the same god damned turn?  Yeah, you go ahead and call that a fair challenge.  I'm going to just play another game.  Because that's how things work.  No, the stupid mind ribbon isn't worth it either.

Difficult is one thing.  Frustrating is another.  And "you just don't get it" isn't a valid argument, no matter what words you use to say it.

@Smarter AI:  You're the only one who's said that.  While yeah, more complex AI would be nice, it's folly to claim that you'd HAVE to have it to get a better break.  That just tells me you WANT to frustrate the player, especially if they go with Buffer/Healer/Attacker/Jack setup like I went with in Dark Dawn.  For me, a more complex AI is better used for other reasons - mainly "IF x, THEN y".  For instance, "IF poisoned, THEN cure poison".  More complex AI is far better for making Ailments more viable options, as it lets you lower enemy luck while preventing them from being overpowering.

@Sheba and Ivan:  Statistically, Sheba is exactly halfway between Ivan and Mia.  If her class multipliers in her base class don't reflect this, then there's your problem.  If Ivan and Sheba had their stats swapped, their class multipliers should be changed to appropriately reflect that.  Also... why?  What was the purpose of the stat swap?  This isn't a criticism, I'm just genuinely curious, I think I missed that part of the discussion.

@Break/previous post:  That in and of itself, the 46% chance, is wrong.  All that does is discourage the use of buffs overall.  If it was a smaller chance, perhaps a 25% chance, then it'd not be too punishing.  But I still stand by the fact that your hack uses far too few debuffs as a whole, on both sides of the field.  Most of what we have to work with are benedictions, it'd be nice to have more options and more stuff we have to account for.  If most of what we have to work with are buffs, that's what we'll use, and pushing us for using what you give us can't be called anything but frustrating.  Games like this should be more than just hurt and heal.  That's the whole point of support spells spells.


Oh, as for your PP comment - if you want me to use those mystic waters, don't make them artifacts - make them common and purchasable.  As they are now, they're better for emergencies.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: JamietheFlameUser on 04, April, 2016, 08:22:09 PM
Yeah, what is the point in swapping Ivan and Sheba anyway? You just want her to be frail because she's a girl? And what's the point of higher Attack instead of HP/Defence when she's the one who needs to be keeping the party alive while Ivan's the one playing pure offence? What's the point of higher Attack when her base class undermines that by having 5% less Attack multiplier than Ivan's, along with her having a worse weapon set for raw Attack anyway? What's the point of higher Agility when her base class undermines that by having 5% less Agility than Ivan's anyway?

Edit: And yeah there's like 9 debuff series (across all class series) to like 17 buff series (again, across all class series) in this mod's GS1. And Dull is entirely unavailable to Isaac and Garet. In addition, multiple classes gain all of Impact/Guard/Ward, but no class gets the combination of Dull/Impair/Weaken.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 04, April, 2016, 09:25:09 PM
I'll keep things short cause I think the whole discussion is becoming far too big.

1- I'll look at Break. First thing that might happen is giving it a slightly lower chance for enemies to cast it. I'll also try to give bosses more debuffs and ailments.
2- More debuffs is already on schedule. I can't promise the same for ailments though, but i'll try. I'd like to tinker with them a lot.
3- I didn't mean to sound unreasonable with Dullahan. The concept i wanted to express was "don't worry too much. If i could do it, everyone can". I must have worded myself poorly.
4- Stat-wise, Sheba now has the lowest atk, def and hp. best PP and Luck and second best agility. I changed those values to reflect the stat multipliers in base classes. The only reason behind this is how i personally view characters. Basically i "see" Sheba as frailer than Ivan.

Hope that this is enough to move on and that next time we'll be discussing actual numbers.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: JamietheFlameUser on 04, April, 2016, 09:42:44 PM
4- Statistically, Sheba now has the lowest atk, def and hp. best PP and Luck and second best agility. I changed those values to reflect the stat multipliers in base classes. The only reason behind this is how i personally view characters. Basically i "see" Sheba as frailer than Ivan.
Just like everyone else in this damn fandom. I swear, random fanfics having Sheba totally unable to take a hit while Ivan has to save her in a typical "chivalrous" fashion. Makes me SO mad because holy crap people, the game stats do in fact exist for a reason. Stats are an abstraction of a character's physical abilities.

Edit: Note that this isn't directed at you specifically. It's something I've seen quite often in the GS fandom, and it annoys me with how common it is. What, is the concept of an Action Girl foreign to literally everyone? Is the idea that women can be competent at physical activity so unbelievable? I've seen 'fics make Jenna out to be as squishy as Ivan normally is while throwing Ivan in with Isaac, Garet, Felix, and Piers!


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 04, April, 2016, 09:55:20 PM
I don't know what everyone else thinks but in my mod jenna is far superior to ivan physically wise. And Mia has more HP and defense than Ivan, but lower attack. But again, it's just my personal ranking.

Read the values here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1akHBcZS1EDKwroj8e8_khVVlc6PhC3E7MKHR29lblnU/edit#gid=1914473584). The first table contains the actual stats at L99. The second one is just for ranking, from 1st (best) to 8th (worst)

EDIT:
@Debuff update. I've already made some changes.
Before there were 14/11/11 buffs and 5/7/7 debuffs for atk/def/res. Now it's 10/10/10 and 9/10/10. Ignore the numbers I ignored a few relevant facts while counting.

EDIT2:
@Ideas on ailments. Differentiate between stun and sleep, reintroduce paralysis


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Salanewt on 05, April, 2016, 04:07:53 AM
Caledor: Can't remember what I meant honestly, I was super tired when I wrote that. I think it had something to do with wanting to wait for you to finish ironing out certain details, but I imagine I will end up playing it really soon.

Sheba weaker/Jamie: Funny thing is I always saw Ivan as being the weak character. Mostly because of stats, but they are both basically the same character otherwise (orphan baby given/abandoned with mysterious backgrounds, both wind users, both are short blond teenagers who are around the same age, same class options, very similar weapon preferences, both decide to adventure with you rather than return home...). I think others see her differently from us is because only Sheba was actually ever in a damsel/hostage situation, with Babi first and then Saturos before the Stockholm Syndrome kicked in. I'd give Dark Dawn some credit in that area if not for the fact that it does the same thing to its fire users and doesn't even try to differentiate them with gender or something. Meh.

AI: I don't know, it is a bit odd when an enemy will try to heal scratch damage with a potion every other turn. The AI being random is such a pain for designing enemy strategies around primary targets. Especially when enemy healing "strategies", which should be incredibly simple, don't often work. But I agree with the sentiment that break shouldn't be prioritized over debuffs except in a select few cases.




Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 05, April, 2016, 11:33:21 AM
Just a heads up - tomorrow I won't be able to stream at the normal time.  Gotta stop by the bank so I can pay my rent.  Today should be okay, though.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 05, April, 2016, 07:41:13 PM
@Squirtle: now that I think about it did you investigate what makes Iron's animation change color halfway?

@Role: No prob. Actually, that implies that v1.35 will be ready sooner cause i can spend more time modding and less playing :P

EDIT: Since the new version won't be ready anytime soon i thought i'd post the new (likely) class lineup so we've got something concrete to discuss. HERE (http://imgur.com/DH44Mk0).

As for atk/def/res buff and debuffs the numbers (NOT counting item classes) are 18/15/17 for the buffs (10/7/9 in GS1) and 15/16/15 for the debuffs (7/8/7 in GS1). 4 (2) Poison, 4 (2) Delude, 9 (6) Sleep, 8 (3) Paralysis, 10 (5) Bind, 14 (7) Break, 28 (14) Single target healings, 22 (10) Multi Target Healing, 23 (11) Revives.

Update: Guardian lost Ply for Guard + Avoid. Numbers above reflect this update


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Salanewt on 05, April, 2016, 09:51:04 PM
I don't think I have yet, actually. I started looking through the buffs one day and then decided to check out a different animation instead. I think it may have been one of the summons, not sure.

Anyway, the goal today is to try to finish this one secret patch that leaf suggested/planned out so I can release that. After that I may get back into the animation stuff, or I may try to finish/fix my time hack.

Classes: I'll wait for others to comment, but neat.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Rolina on 06, April, 2016, 12:03:23 AM
Well, I can say this with certainty - Pretty sure the "may drop to 1 HP" effect has too high a trigger rate.  First fight against Toadonpa spiraled out of control because of that.  Quickly ran out of ways to revive.  Had to reset and swap to cheap tactics.  Never let it be said that Full Symbiotic Setups are fair - doubling up on healing and attack rushes feels too cheap.  Kinda one of the reasons I dislike shared classes as a whole, but there's not much we can do about that given the limited space there is to work with.

Seriously though, check the vid.  I got real frustrated after that first fight.  I honestly think 2xBrute 2xHermit is boring, but I resorted to that in the Toadonpa fight rematch.


Title: Re: [RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age
Post by: Caledor on 06, April, 2016, 12:11:12 AM
Well, I can say this with certainty - Pretty sure the "may drop to 1 HP" effect has too high a trigger rate.  First fight against Toadonpa spiraled out of control because of that.  Quickly ran out of ways to revive.  Had to reset and swap to cheap tactics.  Never let it be said that Full Symbiotic Setups are fair - doubling up on healing and attack rushes feels too cheap.  Kinda one of the reasons I dislike shared classes as a whole, but there's not much we can do about that given the limited space there is to work with.

Seriously though, check the vid.  I got real frustrated after that first fight.  I honestly think 2xBrute 2xHermit is boring, but I resorted to that in the Toadonpa fight rematch.
I will. Seems strange though, i don't remember touching that one. Currently it's a flat 35% chance (luck is irrelevant unless higher than 40) unless i screwed up something somewhere else, like it loads the w