In this thread, I'm going to be going over my thoughts and experiences while playing Caledor's Balanced Seal and Balanced Age patches (http://forum.goldensunhacking.net/index.php?topic=2612.0). With any luck, this will give some good insight and feedback for him, as well as serve as a progress journal of sorts for me.
To start off with, I'll go over my initial thoughts and planning. First - I very much like a lot of these changes. The changes to the psynergy damage formula in particular has me intrigued - that should very much change how I play, and for the better. The changes to enemies don't seem as over the top as they do in other hacks, so that intrigues me as well (as much as some people like it, I don't think just giving enemies extra turns is a good way to balance a game). As for weapons, here's my plans:
Axes: Two ways to go about this. First is to go with Isaac to take advantage of the extra power. This would make Isaac essentially a High-Risk attacker, taking advantage of his higher attack growth and typically higher attack multipliers. The other way to do it is to go with Garet, who's got high enough defenses that he can take the hit to them. By giving it to Garet, it gives him a little extra oomph he needs, without really compromising too much.
Swords: Can't really say much about this until I reach the end of The Balanced Age - swords are the baseline here, so it really boils down to how balanced their unleashes are in endgame. Will it look like a typical TLA playthrough by that point, or will I have a variety of weapons in use? We'll find out then.
Blades: Ivan doesn't need these. Garet, on the other hand, will benefit a ton. I'm currently torn between having Garet spec into Axes or into Blades...
Maces: Oh, cursed weapons got buffed? Wicked Mace Mia's gonna be awes--- OOH, the Cleric's ring is -10 luck... On a healer that's... oh, you deliciously evil little - I'm gonna have to think hard about this one.
Staves: I like that they're offensive based - Ivan's definitely going to spec into these now. Likely Mia as well, though namely because...
Ankhs: God dammit, Golden Sun, why must you only have 3 ankhs across all the games? They're not really viable until the endgame of TLA, when the Clotho's Distaff becomes available. Until then, they're just... well, too situational. Mia will use them while she can, but she can't keep it up long. Too much stuff outclasses the Angelic Ankh.
And with that being said...
End of the First Day
Started the game up. Didn't notice anything in particular. Well, I think the classes are now ? instead of the dummy versions of the usual names they have. I'm okay with this - it implies that Isaac and Garet haven't chosen their paths yet by the time of the prologue. It's... actually very fitting. Was very pleasantly surprised when I reached the point I got to fight monsters. They were tougher, but not frustratingly so. I actually had to use herbs! It was pretty nice. Cue boulder, and it's time to move to Chapter 1.
First thing I did was go and buy armor for everyone. Spent... like, almost all my cash and only got the one game ticket. Huh. That's actually clever - usually I get enough to sell to buy a longsword. Not sure how you did it, but this will actually make me consider my options more carefully. Started my way through the Sol Sanctum until I got the hundred cash I needed for a single longsword - retreated, bought it, gave it to Isaac. Decided to give the short sword to Jenna. The +1 PP isn't gonna be much help, especially not this early. However, +1 AGL to Jenna and -1 AGL from Isaac changing weapons will help solidify turn order, which I like. Also... Level 2 and Garet still has yet to learn any spells. Interesting... I expected base class changes for Team Felix, but seeing them in Team Isaac is a pleasant surprise.
Well, after that hour of play, it was bedtime (got work in the morning). I'll make a post later about my second day's progress~
Just registered to this. I don't wanna miss a single word.
End of the Second Day
Blah blah blah alchemy blah blah blah kidnapping come on, get on with it...
Okay, after finally getting control of my heroes again, they were sent out of Vale. I immediately went back in and swiped a nut from the tree, then went and did the same at Lunpa. I'll need the cash. Made my way down to - wow, these monsters won't die. Okay, so they're meatier than I expected. Garet finally learned Blast - not a bad trade. Made it to Vault and wasted no time looting every house in sight. Grabbed Ivan, sold the stuff I found, as well as the extra nuts (don't get enough HP for those to be worth it until some time from now), and then started gearing everyone up. Got some axes for the fighters, since at this early there's no point in specializing, and grabbed Ivan a new staff. Got everyone the best armor I could with the remaining cash and took on the bandits. They went down with little effort. It was kinda nice, what with the lightning and the explosions.
Made my way over to Goma Cave. Stuff here kinda hurts - one charge from a skelly puts Ivan down by half his health. Isaac was on healing duty for most of the time. Saw my first unle-HOLY HELL, IVAN JUST DID 64 DAMAGE. That's... crazy at this point in the game. Got Forge, and immediately gave him to Ivan. He needs the defense, and he doesn't care about the speed down because HE'S IVAN. Got to Bilibin and promptly sold all my unneeded stuff. Also the Water of Life from the mayor of vault, because I need the cash more than a one time revive right now. Got everyone great armor. Ivan upgraded his staff, Isaac got a new sword, and Garet's getting the Elven Rapier I'm about to get. Oh, and he also got Gust, so yay for more speed.
Got the Elven Rapier, gave it to Garet. He needs the speed, what can I say? Now he's only about a point or two below Isaac. Promptly... got my @#$ handed to me. Holy hell, I'm gonna have to face Tret
before getting Mia? But... but... I've never
not sequence broken here before! But wow, Game Over'd... that's some punishing foes even just a few levels above where I'm at. Grabbed the Turtle Boots (oh hey, they're actually useful! Gave them to Ivan.), made my way to Kolima, got a djinn, and now Isaac's a Knight. I'd experiment more with him, but... I need the heals. Heck, it's why I tried to get Mia first... Bah, ah well. Let's head to the woods.
...Okay, do these bees have like, a 90% stun rate with their stings? Because this is kinda nuts. I think out of all the times I got hit with numbing sting, I only didn't get stunned once. That might be a bit... much. Especially once I reached the creepers - those things hit like a freaking truck. Took down Ivan and Isaac in the same fight. Had to flee with only Garet to cover me. I have no idea how he didn't get himself killed too. I mean, come on - he's
Garet. Two revives and a trek back later, got a healing ring, wound up using the healing ring to save Isaac's very low PP at this point - go figure, it broke first use. On use gear is worthless... =_= Anywho, got Garet his second Jupiter djinn (oh nice, buffs!). Like the fact that class names are a bit more unique here. Got to Tret. Let's do this. Leroy Jenkins.
HOLY HELL, HE MOVES TWICE?! ...I'm not a fan of this. If bosses this early move twice, then that's the start of a trend I'm pretty sure I'll hate. I swear if the Kraken moves thrice... there's better ways to up difficulty than just "here's another turn!". Anywho, rants about design philosophies I disagree with aside, started off with Garet buffing Isaac to attack, Isaac attacking, and Ivan burning the tree down. Found out very quickly that Isaac will never attack again and be stuck on full time healing duty, and Garet promptly switched to blowing the three up. Once Garet was down to his last cast, buffed his attack instead and started going to town. A couple turns later, Tret (and the rest of the forest) lay in a pile of ash. Teaches him to attack me for no good reason.
Calling it there for the night. I find a lot of these changes interesting, and for the most part I like them. However, I am a known opponent of the "just give them extra turns to make them harder" philosophy, so one thing I definitely didn't like was Tret's double actions. Personally, I prefer emphasizing added effects, especially for bosses. It'd be a simple thing to give him a version of growth that lowers speed, and a version of Thorn that lowers defense or resist. That'd have made the fight tough, but without needing to resort to having the attacker go full healer.
I did notice that the staff unleashes very quickly stopped seeming so crazy strong. They were powerful, sure, but not much moreso than other weapon unleashes. I feel it balances out in terms of overall DPS. Though, it was great to see Ivan occasionally dish out 2.5-3x his normal damage output from time to time. :3
Well, if the Kraken moved thrice, at least that would make thematic sense given the boss in question. Not a fan of 2 actions on Tret though.
Ok, time for some clarification.
While I must admit that giving him some debuffs like Vine's effect would have been nice if that thought crossed my mind, giving him double actions and tweaking his skillset accordingly (= more growth than thorn, less sleep) was the best choice. Giving him Cure would have been annoying at best for a single turn enemy and potentially broken for a 2 turn one (or pointless if, to avoid potential brokenness, i gave it a minimal chance to trigger). Giving him an uber spell to use on a single turn was even worse, during tests i found myself having to heal ivan even when he was almost at full health due to fear of him being raped by lady (un)luck. This way instead he's never too strong nor it requires too much strategy (you just started the game after all) and your healing (buy herbs) + Breeze + Granite should shut him down without much effort.
Also, there is no trend. Saturos moves once and Kraken twice. The enemies that now strike twice are Mimics and Djinn and Mad Plants that are at least Lv 13. Djinn never strike more than twice (even in TLA) and only the strongest 4 Mimics in TLA strike thrice. Random enemies that strike twice are mostly found either very late in TLA or are confined to some special races like phoenixes, daemons and dragons to set them apart from the others.
About Stun, its base chance is 60%, so my response is that you were VERY unlucky with it.
Staff unleashes are basically spells right now so they are very susceptible to Power and Resist, so yeah, it's likely that they'll be very strong as soon as you get them (Milky Cloud is a free, random, single target equivalent of Plasma, which you used to get at level 8) and then become weak quickly due to the randomness or availability of stronger spells.
As a side note, why don't you upload your save somewhere when you want me to check something that feels off to you? I'd be quicker for me to do it and more accurate. ;)
I think adding a turn is a pretty legit way to add difficulty... I'd like to elaborate on this later, but I won't have time to write about game balance theory today. Anyway, Golden Sun is not unbalanced becase it lacks difficulty (on the other hand, when it lacks difficulty it's often because it's unbalanced). I shouldn't say too much because I haven't played this yet (I plan to do so eventually though), but it does seem like you're making the game more challenging in general, which is not the same as making it more balanced, although they're obviously not mutually exclusive. I suspect the point was Tret does not need an extra turn because he's not supposed to be a particularly noteworthy boss.
By the way, it's nice to see that you still care this much about your patch.
Rolina you started early you cheater!
Yeah, the staff stuff caught me off guard to how drastic it'd be. I'm actually kind of a fan of it, as you can ask the people who were watching me test the stream.
It's nice to see that the multi-moves aren't going to be much of a trend - how much I like or dislike them will need to be done on a case by case basis. Really nervous about the multiple turns on djinn, though - stuff in your hack LOOOOOVES to run. Like, flip a coin - if heads, the stupid jerk ran away instead of letting me kill him. Rat Warriors were kinda annoying about it. It's not much of a balance issue - I was a higher level than them at the time, after all. Rather, it's annoying as hell when they bugger off after you put in the effort to take them down.
But djinn... as long as the multi-turn djinn don't have twice the chance to bugger off, I think that'll be good.
Flee data:
Rat Soldier has a 25% chance to flee, Rat Fighter and Warrior only 12,5%, and all those didn't change from the original game.
Djinn with multiple turns actually have double the chance to run away, but we're talking about a 9% chance for single turn djinn and a 18% chance for double turns djinn. I don't remember having a single djinn flee more than once from me... but I'll be waiting for your tests nonetheless.
In that case, The RNG Goddess hates my guts, because everything loves to run away from me.
If it's a 9% chance to run, it comes to 17.19% chance to run over the course of two actions. Which is actually pretty significant.
QuoteAbout Stun, its base chance is 60%, so my response is that you were VERY unlucky with it.
Is that unchanged from the original? And what's more, did you change their elemental levels at all? If you increased the elemental levels, that would increase the status rate, although a base of 60% is still hella high. It might just not have been a problem before because you could kill the bees before they ever stunned you.
In GS2 at least, Stun's base chance is 40%. I presume the same is true of GS1?
And yes, a 60% base chance is very high indeed early-game.
Pretty much what Jamie said, but I also don't know whether Caledor tweaked the formula or not. The boost is definitely something that would have a bigger impact early on when you have few djinn, but that doesn't last forever of course.
Also, kudos on the popularity Caledor; it looks like you've done a great job with the hack! Can't wait to try it out when my schedule clears up a bit.
End of the Third Day
Okay, got the new patch up and running and - oh, nuts still sell for decent cash. Nice. Sold the crappy healing ring - I'm not paying 200 cash to repair a useless item. Proceeded to head to Imil. Luckily I didn't run into anything too bad - though apparently Ghouls love them some corn. Nice to see that's not a pointlessly rare item anymore. Got out of the cave and OH DEAR GOD THREE GNOME CASTER GUYS! Let me explain something - you know back in GS Vanilla, spells were the only real threat you in the game? You know spells have been fixed in this game to scale as you level, so that they can at least be useful later on? Yeah... Spellcaster enemies are FREAKING NIGHTMARES now. The Creepers took down ivan like it was nothing with their mercury spells back at tret, and these gnome guys OTK'd me back when I got the elven rapier. So surely you can understand why I started the panicked screaming of "KILL IT KILL IT KILL IT!" and quickly flipped into overkill casting mode. I managed to take one down before the others... attacked me physically. Needless to say, the fight ended soon after.
Huh. So Pray is still Ply. Ah well, I'm in the minority on that one anyways. Whoa, Mia starts with the Heavy Mace instead of a Witch's Wand? That was... unexpected. Understandable, though - that was the only non-drop or forged artifact you could have multiples of, and it always felt kinda strange because of it. Kinda wish I had a better item to give her, though - mundane maces don't have much point, since their whole schtick seems to be elemental power boosts. Got to the point with the Mimic, and SCREW THIS MIMIC! He heavily favored Psy Drain and now my party is freaking tapped! RNG Goddess really hates me this week for some reason. Got the Psynergy Armor and... gave it to Garet, actually. I've been using quite a bit of psynergy with him. It's... actually kinda weird. But in a good way.
Found a djinni~. Officiant? Huh. That wasn't expected. I'll have to check these class names out more once I get new djinn. Until then... Isaac, Mia - swap djinn. With Herbalist and Defender, I keep both my ST healers, trade one Ply for a Cure Well (I'm okay with this), I'd prefer Mia to be faster while she has the regen going on (you know, so she can actually heal them!), and I'd prefer my main attacker to be slower than the guy with the buffs (Garet. Yeah, I know...). Plus, this gives both of them some better defenses, and Mia desperately needs those right now. So, with that, I'm running an Acolyte, Naturalist, Fated, and Defender... Wait.
Isaac, Garet, swap djinn. Fair and Practiciant, huh? I keep Impact with Isaac, and Garet gets... Ply? Huh. Okay then. Swapped them back. I'm definitely gonna have to experiment more later on. Right now my team seems good for what I want to do. Now... to ground for two levels. Not trusting my chances against Saturos without an EPA at my disposal. Hmm.... I'm noticing that added effects are hitting a lot more than they used to - I'm guessing luck is gonna have a greater importance than before? Also... I suppose one shouldn't read too much into this, but... Ivan seems largely immune to and good at fighting Sirens. Mia seems particularly susceptible to them. Makes you ask questions...
I mean, seriously...
QuoteSiren: Shouldn't you sleep now?
Isaac: Uh, dunno...
Garet: Aren't we fighting?
Mia: That sounds like a great idea!~
Ivan: Stun voltage.
No seriously. I swear Ivan's got like a doubled unleash rate against these things. He must
really hate them. Anywho, got to level 12, got my Cutting Edge. Let us do this. Jenkins of the Leroy.
,--------------------------------------. ,--------------------------------------.
| Ivan | Lv12 Acolyte | | Mia | Lv12 Naturalist |
|--------------------------------------| |--------------------------------------|
| HP: 142 Attack: 88 | | HP: 142 Attack: 80 |
| PP: 102 Defense: 64 | | PP: 95 Defense: 58 |
| Luck: 4 Agility: 72 | | Luck: 8 Agility: 66 |
|--------------------------------------| |--------------------------------------|
| Witch's Wand Staff | | Heavy Mace Mace |
| Wooden Cap Head | | Wooden Cap Head |
| Leather Armlet Arms | | Leather Armlet Arms |
| Fur Coat Body | | Travel Robes Body |
| Turtle Boots Legs | | Herb x 1 |
| Shaman's Rod | | Antidote x 1 |
| Mountain Water x 2 | | Elixir x 1 |
| Elixir x 2 | | Weasel's Claw x 1 |
| Corn x 1 | | Nut x 2 |
| Vial x 2 | |--------------------------------------|
| Lucky Medal x 1 | | (http://i.imgur.com/xl3dHjm.png) Flint | (http://i.imgur.com/4GKRh2i.png) --- | (http://i.imgur.com/4GKRh2i.png) --- |
| Sleep Bomb x 2 | | (http://i.imgur.com/xl3dHjm.png) Granite | (http://i.imgur.com/4GKRh2i.png) --- | (http://i.imgur.com/4GKRh2i.png) --- |
| Lucky Pepper x 1 | | (http://i.imgur.com/4GKRh2i.png) --- | (http://i.imgur.com/4GKRh2i.png) --- | (http://i.imgur.com/4GKRh2i.png) --- |
| Empty Bottle | `--------------------------------------'
| Psy Crystal x 1 |
|--------------------------------------|
| (http://i.imgur.com/vqHNFoe.png) Forge | (http://i.imgur.com/4GKRh2i.png) --- | (http://i.imgur.com/4GKRh2i.png) --- |
| (http://i.imgur.com/vqHNFoe.png) Corona | (http://i.imgur.com/4GKRh2i.png) --- | (http://i.imgur.com/4GKRh2i.png) --- |
| (http://i.imgur.com/4GKRh2i.png) --- | (http://i.imgur.com/4GKRh2i.png) --- | (http://i.imgur.com/4GKRh2i.png) --- |
`--------------------------------------'
,--------------------------------------. ,--------------------------------------.
| Garet | Lv12 Fated | | Isaac | Lv12 Defender |
|--------------------------------------| |--------------------------------------|
| HP: 178 Attack: 121 | | HP: 182 Attack: 112 |
| PP: 78 Defense: 85 | | PP: 63 Defense: 83 |
| Luck: 4 Agility: 62 | | Luck: 7 Agility: 57 |
|--------------------------------------| |--------------------------------------|
| Elven Rapier Blade | | Broad Sword Sword |
| Open Helm Head | | Open Helm Head |
| Bronze Shield Arms | | Bronze Shield Arms |
| Psynergy Armor Body | | Leather Armor Body |
| Leather Armor | | Catch Beads Tool |
|--------------------------------------| | Mars Star |
| (http://i.imgur.com/dzOW2QF.png) Gust | (http://i.imgur.com/4GKRh2i.png) --- | (http://i.imgur.com/4GKRh2i.png) --- | | Mountain Water x 1 |
| (http://i.imgur.com/dzOW2QF.png) Breeze | (http://i.imgur.com/4GKRh2i.png) --- | (http://i.imgur.com/4GKRh2i.png) --- | | Herb x 1 |
| (http://i.imgur.com/4GKRh2i.png) --- | (http://i.imgur.com/4GKRh2i.png) --- | (http://i.imgur.com/4GKRh2i.png) --- | | Water of Life x 1 |
`--------------------------------------' | Nut x 1 |
|--------------------------------------|
| (http://i.imgur.com/0DOGXyM.png) Fizz | (http://i.imgur.com/4GKRh2i.png) --- | (http://i.imgur.com/4GKRh2i.png) --- |
| (http://i.imgur.com/0DOGXyM.png) Sleet | (http://i.imgur.com/4GKRh2i.png) --- | (http://i.imgur.com/4GKRh2i.png) --- |
| (http://i.imgur.com/4GKRh2i.png) --- | (http://i.imgur.com/4GKRh2i.png) --- | (http://i.imgur.com/4GKRh2i.png) --- |
`--------------------------------------'
Saturos appeared!
Ivan's Witch's Wand
lets out a howl! Stun Voltage!
Saturos takes 55 damage!
Mia casts Ice!
Saturos takes 43 damage!!!
Garet casts Impact!
Isaac's Attack rises by 28!
Saturos attacks!
Isaac takes 32 damage!
Isaac casts Cutting Edge!
Saturos takes 84 damage!!!
Mia recovers 4 PP!
Ivan attacks!
Saturos takes 20 damage!
Mia casts Cure!
Isaac's HP is fully restored!
Saturos casts Fireball!
Ivan takes 78 damage!
Mia takes 65 damage!
Garet takes 44 damage.
Garet casts Impact!
Isaac's Attack rises by 28!
Isaac casts Cutting Edge!
Saturos takes 97 damage!!!
Mia's PP is fully restored!
Ivan uses some Corn!
Ivan's HP is fully restored!
Mia casts Cure!
Mia recovers 64 HP!
Saturos uses Heat Flash!
Mia takes 66 damage!
Mia is wrapped in delusion!
Garet's Elven Rapier
lets out a howl! Vorpal Slash!
Saturos takes 52 damage!
Isaac casts Cutting Edge!
Saturos takes 96 damage!!!
Mia's PP is fully restored!
Ivan's Witch's Wand
lets out a howl! Stun Voltage!
Saturos takes 54 damage!
Mia casts Cure!
Mia recovers 63 HP!
Garet's Elven Rapier
lets out a howl! Vorpal Slash!
Saturos takes 51 damage!
Saturos attacks!
Garet takes 30 damage!
Isaac casts Cutting Edge!
Saturos takes 95 damage!!!
Mia's PP is fully restored!
Ivan attacks!
Saturos takes 21 damage!
Mia casts Cure!
Garet recovers 61 HP!
Garet casts Impact!
Isaac's Attack rises by 0!
Saturos casts Eruption!
Ivan takes 108 damage!
Mia takes 92 damage!
Isaac casts Cutting Edge!
Saturos takes 98 damage!!!
Mia's PP is fully restored!
Ivan uses a Vial!
Ivan's HP is fully restored!
Mia casts Cure Well!
Mia's HP is fully restored!
Garet attacks!
Saturos nimbly dodges the blow!
Saturos attacks!
Ivan takes 39 damage!
Isaac casts Cutting Edge!
Saturos takes 97 damage!!!
Mia recovers 4 PP!
Ivan's Witch's Wand
lets out a howl! Stun Voltage!
Saturos takes 52 damage!
Mia casts Cure!
Ivan's HP is fully restored!
Saturos uses Heat Flash!
Isaac takes 51 damage!!!
Isaac is wrapped in delusion!
Garet's Elven Rapier
lets out a howl! Vorpal Slash!
Saturos takes 52 damage!
Isaac casts Cutting Edge!
Saturos takes 98 damage!!!
Mia recovers 4 PP!
Mia sees clearly once again!
Ivan attacks!
Saturos takes 21 damage!
Mia casts Cure!
Isaac's HP is fully restored!
Garet casts Impact!
Isaac's Attack rises by 0!
Saturos casts Fireball!
Ivan takes 63 damage!
Mia takes 84 damage!
Garet takes 57 damage.
Isaac takes 50 damage!!!
Isaac casts Cutting Edge!
Saturos takes 97 damage!!!
Mia recovers 4 PP!
Ivan is defending!
Mia casts Cure Well!
Mia's HP is fully restored!
Garet casts Astral Blast!
Saturos takes 64 damage!
Saturos attacks!
Ivan takes 19 damage!
Isaac casts Cure!
Ivan recovers 74 HP!
Mia recovers 4 PP!
Ivan attacks!
Saturos takes 21 damage!
Mia casts Cure!
Garet recovers 63 HP!
Garet casts Astral Blast!
Saturos takes 64 damage!
Saturos casts Fireball!
Ivan takes 77 damage!
Mia takes 65 damage!
Garet takes 44 damage.
Isaac casts Cutting Edge!
Saturos takes 97 damage!!!
Mia recovers 4 PP!
Ivan is defending!
Mia casts Cure!
Mia recovers 61 HP!
Saturos uses Heat Flash!
Isaac takes 51 damage!!!
Isaac is wrapped in delusion!
Garet casts Astral Blast!
Saturos takes 63 damage!
Isaac casts Cutting Edge!
Saturos takes 96 damage!!!
Mia recovers 4 PP!
Ivan is defending!
Mia casts Cure!
Ivan recovers 61 HP!
Saturos attacks!
Isaac takes 29 damage!
Garet casts Astral Blast!
Saturos takes 62 damage!
Isaac unleashes Sleet!
Saturos takes 100 damage!!!
Mia recovers 4 PP!
Ivan casts Plasma!
Saturos takes 43 damage!
Mia casts Cure Well!
Isaac's HP is fully restored!
Saturos casts Eruption!
Ivan takes 85 damage!
Mia takes 113 damage!
Garet takes 81 damage.
Garet casts Astral Blast!
Saturos takes 62 damage!
You felled Saturos!
You got 331 experience points.
You got 800 coins.
You got a Psy Crystal.Wow. Ivan doesn't take @#$% from nobody - the first thing he did was unleash upside Saturos' face. This battle... actually went on a couple rounds shorter than I thought it would. Isaac ran out of PP as expected from all the Cutting Edges, and was setting up the summon that I had
thought would be what took Satty out. Given that last Eruption... kinda glad it ended when it did - granted, I had another Vial, Mia could have healed herself, and Garet was about to be healed by Isaac... But you never know when the RNG Goddess will turn around and say "Yeah, no. You're dead now."
Anywho, things I've noticed:
Open Helm is better than Wooden Hat. Yet it's 100 g cheaper. Some price adjustment needs to happen there.
Some of the class names, at least at least at this point, seem kind of odd. Perhaps I'm just not seeing the bigger picture yet, but there seems to be changes where none are needed right now (ex: Mia's base class line).
Hmm... Maybe i'll check the success rates again.
Also, keep in mind that Ivan being more resistant to sleep is due to him having 5 more levels in Jupiter than the others.
About the prices, it is intended. I didn't say this before but there are categories even for defensive equipment and hats are worse than helms defense-wise. which means that when you have similar improvements in defense the hat is always more expensive. Plus the open helm can be bought earlier than the wooden cap and that's another factor that lowers its price.
About class names, I'm VERY open to change cause I just translated the the Italian ones I've chosen for my ROM, but I'll at least wait until you've seen the bigger picture. And thanks cause you've just made me remember where I needed that "paragon" but this will remain a mistery until v1.20 :P
Thank you, Squirtle. Honestly I didn't expect all this myself but I'm certainly glad to see that its liked this much. :)
I think the problem here being the wooden hat is made redundant by the existence of the open helm. You're touting this as "the balanced age," but when you have a piece of equipment that is outclassed by another in literally every respect (including accessibility and price), that piece of equipment is broken - in the useless sense. It needs something to make it a desirable purchase.
Mages cannot equip the open helm
What's the comparison between a circlet and the wooden cap then? Does it even trump starting equipment?
Yup, the wooden hat is basically an improvement over the circlet. It was the open helm that was completly useless before, so i switched their stats and made the open helm available earlier.
What else does the Wooden Cap offer to make up for its higher price? Accessibility alone doesn't cut it. Availability is not an excuse, either - if we were to talk when things should be available, I'd say the Open Helm is gotten too early - swap it with the Wooden Hat if you must. Or, you could make it so it's like in vanilla, where the more valuable piece of equipment is actually better than the less valuable one - the helm is worse than the hat there.
But yeah, if defense is the only measure, then there is no reason why the helm should cost less than the hat.
I can't swap the open helm with the wooden cap because the circlet would become completely useless, and I don't want mages to have stronger gear defense-wise than warriors at any point in the game (at least from shops), so the only option was to move the helm earlier. I can partially agree with what you said in the sense that a 100 coin difference is too much, but keep the categories thing in mind as well, not just accessibility. Between a circlet and a helm with the same defense the circlet is always going to cost more than the helmet only because one is a circlet and the other is an helmet. I think that lowering the hat's price to 240 is a fair compromise (and, on a second check, raise the leather armlet's price to 200, but we're really splitting hairs here).
Whenever I got to Bilibin in vanilla GS, I always bought the wooden cap for everyone. IIRC it gives more defense per gold than the open helm or whatever it's called, and it's also not possible to hand it down to Ivan or Mia when I find a better helm, so there was just no reason to buy that.
From memory, mages got really good defensive gear, but it couldn't be updated very often, and class multipliers meant they ended up with lower defense than warriors regardless.
Item classes should never be followed to the letter, anyway. It's a guideline, not a commandment. If in using them, you end up with an obvious outlier, you need to adjust it. If the class as a whole is underwhelming, then that's another story entirely, and needs to be looked at.
Maybe it's just me but I can't see the issue with the wooden cap. The trade is one point less in defense and 40 more coins in price on a side and later availability, higher accessibility and making a once completely skipped item (Open Helm) actually useful on the other. And item classes somehow existed in vanilla GS as well, see Steel Helm and Guardian Circlet or Silver Helm and Platinum Circlet, in both cases the Circlet has less defense and is priced higher.
Anyway, v1.20 is up.
The developers also thought that a 99% unleash rate for 75% of the party was a good idea, and to make those same items the best defensive items in the game. The point being here that the developers were wrong. If defense is all an item provides, it should be priced accordingly - including the platinum circlet. Reduced in cost to match the relevant prices of the other headgear, else given some reason to be worth more. If mundane gear had additional traits that could be used to differenciate them, then that'd be a good way to do it.
Personally, here's how I lean:
Heavy gear boosts HP or Attack a little on top of defense.
Light gear boosts Agility or Crits a little on top of defense.
Mage gear boosts PP or Luck a little on top of defense.
If the wooden cap boosted agility by, say, 2 or 3 points, it might be worth the extra cash. If the Platinum Circlet boosted luck by a point or two, it might be worth its cost. My idea for weapon versatility didn't just apply to weapons - armor was always going to be part of it as well. The problem with armor being, of course, that it uses lower values, and is a bit trickier to balance.
And unleashes were among the first thing I fixed for a reason. If you don't like the concept of classes being with only defense, just think that it costs more because it is found later and/or because more character can use it. Come on, we discussed for about a page on 40 (forty!) coins, shouldn't we move on? I'm pretty sure there are much more important things to talk about.
Forty? It was hundred. At that early in the game, that's a lot. What's more... I thought you wanted feedback. Well... we've given it. Several of us now have pointed out that if defense is the only factor, then there's no reason for it to cost so much. Availability between characters is a non-issue, especially when the wooden cap becomes available (you'd easily have better gear for your warriors), and "when it can be gotten" means nothing if it's lower-tier gear at that point.
And I said that one hundred was clearly too much and that 240 for the wooden cap would have been fairer, and this is in v1.20. Don't get me wrong I want feedback (the more the merrier) but now we've clearly reached a stalemate here cause we've been stating over and over our point of view without getting anywhere. Hence the "let's move on".
As a side note, I just remembered that i had to check the base chances of stun and the others... I'll probably make a v1.20a for that one within the next hour. Status success rate fix included in v1.20. Stun is now 55% and Sleep 45%.
If it helps, it may be a good idea to have multiple instances of several stat ailments. Basically, a low, mid, and high inflict rate. That way, damage+effect can be balanced with effect only by giving effect only spells a higher chance of success.
Because the sting does damage too, you'd give it the lower infliction rate. But if it had a spell that ONLY stunned someone, you'd have used the higher one.
Quote from: Rolina on 27, March, 2015, 09:15:44 PM
If it helps, it may be a good idea to have multiple instances of several stat ailments. Basically, a low, mid, and high inflict rate. That way, damage+effect can be balanced with effect only by giving effect only spells a higher chance of success.
Because the sting does damage too, you'd give it the lower infliction rate. But if it had a spell that ONLY stunned someone, you'd have used the higher one.
I tried doing this A LOT of times in the past but somehow it never worked, and I had other things that required my attention at that time, so I always gave up soon. Now it's certainly a good time to try again.
Yeah - being able to give value to the effect only spells is pretty important to giving the player a reason to use them, and the best way to do that is to give them a decent chance of actually working. Though, in some cases, like with Delusion, you'd have to overhaul the effect itself... but that's a different discussion entirely~
End of the Fourth Day
This time, with out mechanical failure!
On my second attempt at the fourth day, the same thing happened - my controller didn't wanna work. I, however, am kind of a b****, and refuse to accept its insubordination. Got a program to crack the whip when the controller decides it doesn't want to work after an alt tab. Anywho, got the treasure at Bilibin (far right, of course), sold it for cash, and headed to the Fuchin temple. Met the old afro dude who has no right living into dark dawn, then entered the falls and HOLY HELL WHAT IS UP WITH THIS FREAKING DJINN?!
Okay, so here's the thing - this thing hits stupid hard, in a stupid wide area, and I have no freaking area healing. I switch to a more djinn/summon centric strategy? It runs. And runs. AND RUNS. GOD DAMMIT, DON'T GIVE FLEE TO DUNGEON DJINN! It forces you to save scum, and if you screw that up... well, we'll get to that bit of outrage later. But seriously? In no way shape or form should it have been this infuriating. Remember - hard is fine. Hard is good. But frustrating is not. Why do I say that? Well...
Enter Mogall Woods. First off, would like to mention a couple things - first, too few classes have weak psynergy. Second, too many classes have redundant psynergy. I entered the forest at the two level gap where I have
no firepower, and pretty much nearly got broadsided by the sudden difficulty spike. These guys are hitting for 60-80 damage a pop, and it's simply because I don't have gear yet. That means I need to use offense as my defense, but... I have no new offense, either! It was a bit of a struggle to get through these woods. I had to save scum for the djinn again, but it wasn't nearly as bad as the previous one - I think. All I know is that I wasn't nearly as frustrated fighting this thing. Got it, got to the end, and... well...
,--------------------------------------. ,--------------------------------------.
| Ivan | Lv13 Acolyte | | Mia | Lv14 Officiant |
|--------------------------------------| |--------------------------------------|
| HP: 150 Attack: 95 | | HP: 154 Attack: 96 |
| PP: 107 Defense: 81 | | PP: 106 Defense: 88 |
| Luck: 4 Agility: 78 | | Luck: 14 Agility: 80 |
|--------------------------------------| |--------------------------------------|
| Witch's Wand Staff | | Blessed Ankh Ankh |
| Silver Circlet Head | | Silver Circlet Head |
| Gauntlets Arms | | Gauntlets Arms |
| Adept's Clothes Body | | Elven Shirt Body |
| Turtle Boots Legs | | Fur Coat |
| Shaman's Rod | | Weasel's Claw x 1 |
| Mountain Water x 1 | | Dragon's Eye |
| Nut x 3 | | Game Ticket x 1 |
| Vial x 2 | | Mountain Water x 1 |
| Elixir x 2 | | Apple x 1 |
|--------------------------------------| |--------------------------------------|
| (http://i.imgur.com/vqHNFoe.png) Forge | (http://i.imgur.com/4GKRh2i.png) --- | (http://i.imgur.com/4GKRh2i.png) --- | | (http://i.imgur.com/0DOGXyM.png) Fizz | (http://i.imgur.com/4GKRh2i.png) --- | (http://i.imgur.com/4GKRh2i.png) --- |
| (http://i.imgur.com/vqHNFoe.png) Fever | (http://i.imgur.com/4GKRh2i.png) --- | (http://i.imgur.com/4GKRh2i.png) --- | | (http://i.imgur.com/0DOGXyM.png) Sleet | (http://i.imgur.com/4GKRh2i.png) --- | (http://i.imgur.com/4GKRh2i.png) --- |
| (http://i.imgur.com/4GKRh2i.png) --- | (http://i.imgur.com/4GKRh2i.png) --- | (http://i.imgur.com/4GKRh2i.png) --- | | (http://i.imgur.com/4GKRh2i.png) --- | (http://i.imgur.com/4GKRh2i.png) --- | (http://i.imgur.com/4GKRh2i.png) --- |
`--------------------------------------' `--------------------------------------'
,--------------------------------------. ,--------------------------------------.
| Isaac | Lv12 Practiciant | | Garet | Lv12 Ruffian |
|--------------------------------------| |--------------------------------------|
| HP: 184 Attack: 155 | | HP: 218 Attack: 154 |
| PP: 93 Defense: 103 | | PP: 73 Defense: 92 |
| Luck: 3 Agility: 71 | | Luck: 6 Agility: 67 |
|--------------------------------------| |--------------------------------------|
| Arctic Blade Sword | | Broad Axe Axe |
| Bronze Helm Head | | Bronze Helm Head |
| Gauntlets Arms | | Gauntlets Arms |
| Psynergy Armor Body | | Psynergy Armor Body |
| Catch Beads Tool | | Orb of Force Tool |
| Mars Star | | Mountain Water x 1 |
| Mountain Water x 1 | | Elixir x 1 |
| Vial x 1 | | Antidote x 1 |
| Nut x 2 | | Nut x 2 |
| Broad Sword | | Herb x 2 |
|--------------------------------------| |--------------------------------------|
| (http://i.imgur.com/dzOW2QF.png) Gust | (http://i.imgur.com/4GKRh2i.png) --- | (http://i.imgur.com/4GKRh2i.png) --- | | (http://i.imgur.com/xl3dHjm.png) Flint | (http://i.imgur.com/4GKRh2i.png) --- | (http://i.imgur.com/4GKRh2i.png) --- |
| (http://i.imgur.com/dzOW2QF.png) Breeze | (http://i.imgur.com/4GKRh2i.png) --- | (http://i.imgur.com/4GKRh2i.png) --- | | (http://i.imgur.com/xl3dHjm.png) Granite | (http://i.imgur.com/4GKRh2i.png) --- | (http://i.imgur.com/4GKRh2i.png) --- |
| (http://i.imgur.com/dzOW2QF.png) Zephyr | (http://i.imgur.com/4GKRh2i.png) --- | (http://i.imgur.com/4GKRh2i.png) --- | | (http://i.imgur.com/xl3dHjm.png) Quartz | (http://i.imgur.com/4GKRh2i.png) --- | (http://i.imgur.com/4GKRh2i.png) --- |
`--------------------------------------' `--------------------------------------'With that setup, took on the next boss. It was... actually a rather decent fight. Not frustrating by any means, but the guy didn't let up. This was a proper challenge - though again, I found myself using more djinn-heavy strategies than I'm used to. Really frustrating when you don't have the dual-element summons from TLA. GOD, I wanna summon Megaera SO BAD... But that's not the fault of the hack, so no worries there. But yeah, I really liked this fight.
Made my way to Xian, made the woman
wet herself drop the water bucket, got the djinn, did the things... ha ha... ha... Usless on-use item is still useless. Ignored the worthless china dress, went on up north to the mars djinn. This fight? I'm okay with this. The djinn ran several times. But here's the difference between field djinn running and dungeon djinn running - 5 minutes. No, really. I just run around, and try again. Dungeon djinn make me leave the room, redo ALL the puzzles, fight all the random battles in between and THEN I get to try again. F***. THAT. Got the djinn, moved on to Altin. Did the things, got new gear, moved on to OH CRAP NO!
Yup - I accidentally triggered the djinn fight when I tried to heal after a random fight that occured right next to it. And look at that! It RAN THE F*** AWAY! You have no idea how pissed off I was at this. It was infuriating in a different way than the jupiter djinn before. See, I'd have taken it out before it could run had it only had one attack per round. So I just wasted a large chunk of my time... and for what, exactly? This is one of the big reasons people have pushed to make it so djinn don't flee. How about this - for dungeon djinn, replace the flee command with the... Djinn command. That is to say, they unleash themselves in that battle. It can keep things difficult, but without making them frustrating so long as you don't AoE spam with spells 5-6 levels higher than what my party should be at before I get area healing.
Speaking of, after this I got area healing. And when facing the boss...
,--------------------------------------. ,--------------------------------------.
| Mia | Lv16 Bishop | | Ivan | Lv16 Acolyte |
|--------------------------------------| |--------------------------------------|
| HP: 217 Attack: 119 | | HP: 180 Attack: 129 |
| PP: 136 Defense: 106 | | PP: 133 Defense: 98 |
| Luck: 14 Agility: 100 | | Luck: 4 Agility: 94 |
|--------------------------------------| |--------------------------------------|
| Blessed Ankh Ankh | | Psychic Rod Staff |
| Chain HOod Head | | Chain Hood Head |
| Gauntlets Arms | | Gauntlets Arms |
| Elven Shirt Body | | Silk Robe Body |
| Corn x 2 | | Turtle Boots Legs |
| Dragon's Eye | | Corn x 2 |
| Mountain Water x 2 | | Mountain Water x 2 |
| Vial x 1 | | Elixir x 2 |
| Nut x 2 | | Antidote x 1 |
| Shaman's Rod | | Vial x 3 |
|--------------------------------------| | Nut x 3 |
| (http://i.imgur.com/0DOGXyM.png) Fizz | (http://i.imgur.com/0DOGXyM.png) Spritz | (http://i.imgur.com/4GKRh2i.png) --- | |--------------------------------------|
| (http://i.imgur.com/0DOGXyM.png) Sleet | (http://i.imgur.com/4GKRh2i.png) --- | (http://i.imgur.com/4GKRh2i.png) --- | | (http://i.imgur.com/vqHNFoe.png) Forge | (http://i.imgur.com/4GKRh2i.png) --- | (http://i.imgur.com/4GKRh2i.png) --- |
| (http://i.imgur.com/0DOGXyM.png) Mist | (http://i.imgur.com/4GKRh2i.png) --- | (http://i.imgur.com/4GKRh2i.png) --- | | (http://i.imgur.com/vqHNFoe.png) Fever | (http://i.imgur.com/4GKRh2i.png) --- | (http://i.imgur.com/4GKRh2i.png) --- |
`--------------------------------------' | (http://i.imgur.com/vqHNFoe.png) Corona | (http://i.imgur.com/4GKRh2i.png) --- | (http://i.imgur.com/4GKRh2i.png) --- |
`--------------------------------------'
,--------------------------------------. ,--------------------------------------.
| Isaac | Lv16 Practiciant | | Garet | Lv16 Ruffian |
|--------------------------------------| |--------------------------------------|
| HP: 213 Attack: 163 | | HP: 249 Attack: 187 |
| PP: 104 Defense: 124 | | PP: 81 Defense: 112 |
| Luck: 3 Agility: 85 | | Luck: 6 Agility: 78 |
|--------------------------------------| |--------------------------------------|
| Arctic Blade Sword | | Claymore Axe |
| Chain Hood Head | | Chain Hood Head |
| Dragon Shield Arms | | Iron Shield Arms |
| Psynergy Armor Body | | Psynergy Armor Body |
| Catch Beads Tool | | Frost Jewel Tool |
| Douse Drop Tool | | Orb of Force Tool |
| Corn x 1 | | Corn x 2 |
| Mars Star | | Mountain Water x 1 |
| Mountain Water x 2 | | Elixir x 1 |
| Elixir x 1 | | Antidote x 1 |
| Antidote x 1 | | Vial x 2 |
| Vial x 2 | | Nut x 2 |
| Nut x 2 | | Herb x 2 |
|--------------------------------------| |--------------------------------------|
| (http://i.imgur.com/dzOW2QF.png) Gust | (http://i.imgur.com/4GKRh2i.png) --- | (http://i.imgur.com/4GKRh2i.png) --- | | (http://i.imgur.com/xl3dHjm.png) Flint | (http://i.imgur.com/4GKRh2i.png) --- | (http://i.imgur.com/4GKRh2i.png) --- |
| (http://i.imgur.com/dzOW2QF.png) Breeze | (http://i.imgur.com/4GKRh2i.png) --- | (http://i.imgur.com/4GKRh2i.png) --- | | (http://i.imgur.com/xl3dHjm.png) Granite | (http://i.imgur.com/4GKRh2i.png) --- | (http://i.imgur.com/4GKRh2i.png) --- |
| (http://i.imgur.com/dzOW2QF.png) Zephyr | (http://i.imgur.com/4GKRh2i.png) --- | (http://i.imgur.com/4GKRh2i.png) --- | | (http://i.imgur.com/xl3dHjm.png) Quartz | (http://i.imgur.com/4GKRh2i.png) --- | (http://i.imgur.com/4GKRh2i.png) --- |
`--------------------------------------' `--------------------------------------'This boss was a joke. As frustrating as the djinn were, as fun and engaging as the blue ape was, this stupid statue went down like a b****. The hell happened? If I could make some suggestions for this boss: Give them a higher PP total so their spells hit harder, and give Water Breath a Res Down effect. I mean... Seriously. The fight was Spark Mandrill levels of easy. Called it a day at this point, figure two boss fights was enough for one post.
Now, there's a few things I've noticed with classes that though not critical, are kind of odd. First: The hell was wrong with Cleric? What, Mia skips a rank and goes straight to Bishop now? XD Second, and probably actually important to the hack... Why do some classes learn two power attacks? I have Isaac able to use both Ragnarok and Astral Blast. Garet can use both Raganrok and Planet Diver. That's... kinda pointless. They're roughly the same power, so why bother with one when you can just pick the stronger of the two? Might I suggest using new spells? Make them weaker, but give them effects, such as defense piercing, priority, or debuffs. Something to make them stand out - lord knows I'd have loved to have taken advantage of them. Also, make sure you're not overusing some of these. That makes three class lines with Ragnarok. I know it's cool and all, but... couldn't you make a new spell and give it the animation of Undead Sword? Finally, we get to the Wizard line (not sure what you renamed it too - Ivan and Mia's Symbiotic Class line). I never use this line. You know why? Because it's @#$% until you get 4 djinn. Literally, it knows only two spells until then. All classes should be useful at all points in the game - stagger some spells, give it some supports learned sooner, do... something. ANYTHING. Because only having Plasma and Prism five levels after they stop being useful is... just awful.