EDIT:
5/5/16 Mars Clan added
5/10/16 Jupiter Clan and slightly more detailed World map added
As stated here: http://forum.goldensunhacking.net/index.php?topic=2207.msg45843#msg45843 I think it would be a better idea to make a prequel over a sequel. If pulled off properly it could drive the games further than a sequel (which DD didn't do, and Camelot themselves stated they don't know how to take it further). Summarizing what I said in that post:
:MercuryStar: The storyline would make the player focus and enjoy what they are currently doing in the ancient world :heart: as how the story ends is a given (alchemy is sealed)
:MercuryStar: You are given a world to explore in which alchemy is exploited to its maximum so it would be ironically futuristic, a mix of sci-fi and magic :happy:
:MercuryStar: Most of Dark Dawn is disregarded :sad:
So this is how I would do it, but before a quick disclaimer I don't have the resources to make new graphics/audio for a new game (unless I buy the new RPG Maker and reuse whatever GS art resouces are available but I digress) so this is mostly just a mind exercise if anything, but perhaps some of you have had similar ideas that could expand on mine, or maybe even better that would @#$% on mine. Either way I hope you enjoy this little trip on my train of thought about the World of Golden Sun :VenusSet:
The first iteration of this post I will talk a bit about the condition of the world back then and a few of their civilizations: Mercury and Venus based ones, then will periodically update the thread with the rest: Jupiter, Mars, Lemuria, Ankohl, etc. And then describe how these civilizations interacted with eachother, whichever antagonists and protagonists and antiheroes and whatnot will then interact with this world to further their goals (and the construction of the lighthouses will delve on this).
So getting started! First a quick reminder of how the geography looked back then:
(http://goldensunwiki.net/w/images/9/99/Ancientweyard.PNG)
As you can tell the landmasses were all concentrated on one continent, so this is how today's Weyard would look if the continents went all back to where they used to be:
http://i.imgur.com/PVK9Hsu.png (pardon the leet MS Paint skillz)
And this is how it might have looked like if we add the missing land masses (even worse MS paint skillz!):
http://i.imgur.com/n2DOYpC.png
:newquest: World Setting (tl;dr Each Lighthouse area has its major nation, plus the Lemuria Monarchy and other non-adept major players like the Ankohl) -- In Progress
[spoiler]
The world is at its peak on alchemy advancement, edging on utter exploitation. The Lighthouses are not yet built, but the areas where they stand in the future are natural Alchemy Wells (completely unrelated to the machinery in Ayuthay) rich in psyenergy crystals from which strong psyenergy of its respective element emanates, similar to the effect Air's or Gaia Rock has on its nearby inhabitants, but much stronger. Those who live near these wells not only are born as Adepts from the influence of the psyenergy crystals in the area, but also have their psyenergy powers augmented, so naturally civilizations born and settled around them have thrived the most. Of course that's not to say other civilizations are hicksville, we have Lemuria, and the Ankohl who are mostly non-adepts tinkerers, inventors and skilled crafters who, even those in the clan who are Adepts, prefer science over alchemy, also Izumo and others. These alchemy wells are the sustain and life of the world, something that the ancients even with their all technology and advancement hadn't realized.
:MercuryStar: Mercury Clan :MercurySet:
In the future the Mercury clan is settled on a small village with no visible ruins or signs of lost civilization aside the lighthouse they guard but, in the lost age they lived on Hermes, a city of snow and ice:
Concept Image (http://pre05.deviantart.net/ff47/th/pre/f/2008/208/4/2/ice_palace_by_capstoned.jpg) of city, protected by walls of large spires of nevermelting ice as tough as rock. Transportation through the city would take place over sliding ice tracks. The principle would be similar to igloos in that the packed snow allows for insulation so you wouldn't freeze your @#$ off inside. The power of mercury allowed them to build such structures.
Real life example, Sorrisniva igloo hotel (http://www.luxuryaccommodationsblog.com/post/13638347208/sorrisniva-igloo-hotel))
But aside ice architecture (which in the future is all but lost like the city itself after alchemy was shut off) one more thing they tapped the power of mercury that was preserved in the future was the Fountain of Hermes they developed to cure most diseases, it is a city known for the best healers in Weyard. The city would be pretty much ruled by a council formed by its body of healers (from which Mia is descended) and body of ice builders working together. Their folk, predominantly blue-haired, would distinctively wear thick white robes much like Mia and Arcanos/DD Alex does.
Other Mercury based adepts would be found in Lemuria, more on this later.
:VenusStar: Earth Clan :VenusSet:
The Earth Clan are not mentioned at all in the games, closest we have is those from Izumo though theirs Adepts come from the influence of Gaia Rock and not the Venus Lighthouse area. Izumo and its people would not be that far to today's compared to the other clans and their future counterparts, though it would be more of a Heian period Japan, very predominantly versed in literature, poetry and music. Present day Izumo only had Uzume as a leader but ancient Izumo was ruled by its imperial court and the aristocracy conformed by the Samurai. Curiously the unleashes of japanese-like weapons are mostly water/wind but it makes the most sense that the samurai were earth adepts due to their proximity to Mt. Mikage. So yes basically if you're a weeb with a strange japan obsession, you will love Ancient Izumo. Concept image (http://i.imgur.com/hQC9gFD.jpg), despite not sounding too advanced alchemy wise compared to the other civilizations, they didn't live in houses of mud and sticks either.
As for the Earth Clan itself, the civilization could have been settled on the ruins below what today is Lalivero, but since they have no adepts despite living so close to Venus lighthouse, I will go on ahead and infer that, being Venus, its alchemy well and psycrystals were rooted deep in the ground so it's more likely that the Tunnel Ruins are a small part of the "outer" ring that would have connected also to the Earth Clan's Underground City, so while the Mercury Clan's city melted after Alchemy was sealed, the ancient Earth Clan city and its secrets were buried deep in the earth, never to be found and exploited, like most other civilizations did so. This (http://41.media.tumblr.com/c87822be5633a0a98e6ff76d8447cf78/tumblr_ngn8wtj2Wr1u3jedmo1_1280.jpg) is how I believe the city would look, underground among the roots of grand trees (which withered and turned to desert after alchemy was shut off), the manipulation of these trees' roots and plants growing around them would be how people would get by within the city.
Being Earth I would take the Venus Civilization to have excelled in agriculture, mining, masonry and metallurgy (working closely with their neighbors in Ankohl). Primarily a society of growers, builders, creators and crafters. Protectors and preservators. But since Venus psyenergy deals with death as much as it does with life there will also be a darker group of Venus adepts somewhere around.
As for the hints of a civilization in Suhalla Desert, that is the pharaoh statue, I will assume they were more of a religious-oriented clan similar to Kibombo which may or may not have had Adepts but weren't very competitive with the other clans which developed their own element's alchemy to its limits.
:MarsStar: Mars Clan :MarsSet:
I was going to do the Jupiter Clan first but there's complications and implications from their ability of foresight and mind reading, plus the fact they jumped ship when alchemy was out of control, actually likely before it even got to that point. So the role I had for them in the story is gonna have to change, though the aforementioned leads me to believe they will play a strong part in the creation of the lighthouses. I'll do Mars which I have better level of detail at the moment.
The Mars Clan will be Prox, though in the present they are a rudimentary village they are still very much a race that instinctively seeks out to be warriors and this will reflect greatly in their lost age. Prox will be an industrialized military nation, awfully similar to the Fire Nation in Avatar and the Charr of Guild Wars 2, it might seem like I am blatantly copying those two, but to me it makes a lot of sense to explore Prox as a culture of warriors and power; their technology and advancement in alchemy ultimately driven by that culture, which leads naturally to a military clan. So because of this their city will not be very pretty like the other 3 clans, it will be practical and austere focused entirely on its industry, with over dozens of furnaces and unwelcoming buildings of iron and rock. Concept image: http://www.andysowards.com/blog/assets/steampunk-city-art.jpeg?b91b38
The Proxians won't be exactly The Villains, but will nonetheless not be a kind entity to our heroes or their neighboring settlements and towns, nothing personal; looking always to further their primal desire for a life of war and glory in the battlefield and much internal strife, they will play a part in the creation of the Stone of Sages but will ultimately end up paying their dues with the near wipe out of their race and the destruction of their homeland which will leave us with the current Prox: A small village who has given up on their pursuits of conquest and repenting in their ways by taking the task of watch over the Mars Lighthouse.
One of our protagonists will be an exiled Proxian Fire Adept whose view in life will contrast much the violent ways of thier homeland but will at times be at odds with his/her philosophy in life and natural heritage as a fighter.
:JupiterStar: Jupiter Clan :JupiterSet:
The good old Anemos, out of all the clans this is the one we have the most info from and along with Venus Clan, they are not in Weyard in present day (technically, they are on the moon). They had the ability to fly, read minds and predict the future, and had a longstanding rivalry of sorts with the Tribes of Hesperia until one day they disappeared, lifting their city into the sky to where the moon is (some text in the game even suggest they made Luna but I'm retconning this). The presence they have today in the world is them having predicted the reignition of the lighthouses by leaving behind designs for the wings of anemos and then dropping Sheba onto Lalivero 15 years before the series started.
Anywho, I would visualize Anemos as a floating city, I would've ideally liked to make it a city in the clouds but I need it close enough to the ground and to the Jupiter Lighthouse to receive the influence of the psycrystals in it. Concept images:
http://camilkuo.deviantart.com/art/skycity-401819379
http://i1-games.softpedia-static.com/screenshots/BioShock-Infinite-City-in-the-Sky-Trailer-Gameplay-Trailer_4.jpg
Having the ability of flight I picture two different cities, Contigo at the base and Anemos floating nearby, Contigo was relegated to more of a lower slums kind of thing where gambling is very prominent just as it is in present day and also where the legendary warrior Yegelos is from. The Flying City of Anemos would be where all the discovery and alchemy exploits would be found, this would be the city to pioneer air travel
Their second ability, premonition, leads to a population similar to the one you see in present day Contigo, very softspoken and spiritual, always musing about what brings tomorrow but sometimes forgetting what they have in front of them. Its leaders would be aware of the creation of the Stone of Sages, the end of alchemy and the relighting of the lighthouses, but they would also be aware that there isn't a future in which they stop all this catastrophe. Could it be something making them powerless? Or perhaps because they want it to happen? The Anemos will play a big role in plot of the game.
[/spoiler]
== The below is pending ==
:battle: Antagonists (to be updated)
[spoiler]
[/spoiler]
:Switch: Protagonists (to be updated)
[spoiler]
[/spoiler]
:djinn: Battle System (tl;dr Blatant copy of Balance Age)
[spoiler]
To be updated
[/spoiler]
:psynergy: Psyenergy Expand (to be updated)
[spoiler]
[/spoiler]
:flee: Puzzles (tl;dr DD puzzles were meh, GS1 had the best puzzles, be more like GS1) - to be updated
[spoiler]
Rant about puzzles
[/spoiler]
I don't remember seeing you here before, so welcome :!: :happy:
I see you want to do a prequel? I am your man, since that is something I want as well.
My idea however, (you can read it in my old topics) were based around Lunpa and Babi only a 100 years before GS.
So I based my thing on lore from GS, but you will have to do everything from scratch.
Anyway. I see you need to have characters. Those are very important. ( it is an RPG after all)
By picking characters from different races and villages on Wayard you could make an interesting party.
Something what you don't have yet: a good map(you wrote a good setting, but some geography would be nice), general storyline and gameplay (like what kind of quests, new classes)
I really like where you are going with this idea. In your other post, you pointed out that TLA did actually focus less on lighting all the lighthouses than exploration. It's a good thing you want that for this prequel.
Hey there, welcome! How do you like it here so far? I wasn't sure how to say what was on my mind before, but Luna said it very well. That being said, I'd like to raise a point.
While exploration is a very good aspect of these games, you should also be sure to offer some in-game direction that makes it easier for players to find critical plot elements and locations on their own if they just want to do that. Even if it mostly consists of NPCs saying "I heard that bandits live east of the mountains" or something. GS2 is great for exploration, but it's pretty bad with direction once you get the boat; new players will probably only have an idea of where to go because they can, rather than because they know they need to. Both games are also pretty guilty of just plopping a town in the middle of your path and expecting you to visit it simply because it's there (e.g. Vault, Bilibin, Naribwe, Contigo), which is a lazy way to guide players towards an objective. Sometimes the game makes you wander aimlessly through empty space to reach a location, like Tundaria Tower. Some kind of icy port or a fishing town would have made the monotonous trek towards that tower so much better, and it could even have had an NPC hint towards it being flooded and requiring Parch to enter. They could even have upgraded the penguin island a bit and tweaked the geography of that region to make it slightly closer to the tower. Oh well.
I bet you could make exploration even better than in GS2 if you keep this stuff in mind.
[spoiler=Why the Fortuneteller is useless for direction, featuring actual quotes]
Aside from being in an out-of-the-way location that requires backtracking to utilize, the fortuneteller itself is mostly useless when it comes to the main plot. Some evidence to support my argument has been presented below.
[ Weapons ]
"I see... Beyond the weapon you set down lies a terrible foe. Many enemies await
you, far beyond the mountains. If you move to strike them... you will meet with
great disaster."
* - After Kibombo:
"I see... Beyond the weapon you set down lies a terrible foe. In a misty sea,
a mighty foe... A fearsome battle awaits you. Gather the pieces of the weapon
to defeat him, or drown in defeat yourself."
* - After defeating Poseidon:
"I see... Beyond the weapon you set down lies a terrible foe. None in the eastern
world can stand against the power you possess."
1. Kind of useful, but would be more useful to say north. You never even have the option to fight them in the first place, so this makes me think that this is more for lore than to provide actual advice.
2. No mention of where the pieces are or even how many. His Trident quotes actually look useful, but does he say anything about them if you haven't found a prong yet? He certainly doesn't tell you that each tower requires a spell from a Rock dungeon to complete, not that he tells you where the Rock dungeons are anyway. It doesn't look like Obaba says anything about them either now that I look at it...
3. "None in the eastern world can stand against the power you possess" Like Sentinel or Star Magician? Something like "the dangers you seek lie in the western world" would be better in my opinion.
Makes me think he is intentionally vague so he can keep charging you for his services.
[/spoiler]
Edit: Pacing is another issue you should keep in mind. Both games have the tendency of pacing the beginning fairly well, followed by a period of random or seemingly irrelevant plot events, finally ending with a rushed conclusion. GS2 was really bad for this, but GS1 also had some issues in this area (you can't backtrack instead of going through fantasy Asia because a bridge, which is unconnected to anything you do in fantasy Asia, is out). The only real reason you can't go to Jupiter Lighthouse right away is because a rock is blocking your only path. After you finally destroy it, there is exactly one required dungeon between the two lighthouses while you spend most of the game wandering around. When it was previously established (several times across both games) that your quest was to light the lighthouses. Something as simple as making Karst steal the Jupiter star from you in Madra and wrecking the path to the western sea would have been a great explanation for why you can't go straight to the lighthouse, because then you would have to wander the eastern sea for clues on how to catch up to Karst. But nope, not what actually happens.
Thanks for the feedback guys! I actually found this forum due to the Balance Age mod and I've enjoyed it greatly (atm Isaac and Co. just joined, about to enter Magma Rock), I had taken to replay DD and TLA so it's what sparked my interest in re-imaging the world of GS, bringing back some ideas I had when I was younger along with new ones.
Completely agree with you guys on offering a sense of direction, I'm not even sure how a decade ago I figured out where/how to go after you get the ship and find yourself not being able to enter Lemuria, why it is you need a trident to fight Poseidon or the relation between the children songs in Yallam and the Sea of Time currents, when I started replaying a couple weeks ago I just went by what I vaguely remembered.
So what I would do with the direction, it'd tie directly with the lives the main characters lead as they are eventually involved in the main plot. Something I'd want for the core characters, at least the main two or three (since someone has to speak for the silent protagonist), is to already be young adults who are out in the world due to their profession instead of the "Teenage boy embarks on a mystical quest entrusted to him that has him travelling from point A to point B". This depends largely though on what the protagonists even do, as the only ideas I've had so far are not original and have already been done: One was that they are in a guild that takes jobs but that's what Final Fantasy Tactics Advance games do, or Pirates travelling the world but that's One Piece's plot, perhaps Ancient Weyard had a elitist society that shunned non-adepts and the protagonists are (at first) smugglers who offer relief and aid to non-adepts (I forgot where this is from but I think its been done).
The cool thing about the exploration in TLA is that although you don't know where to go, you do have a purpose which is to gain power necessary to get to Jupiter Lighthouse, so I would have to tie into that to not just give some clear pointers (though not hand-holding like they do in Dark Dawn) on where to go and why, but allow the player to choose their pace, order and means on getting to those places to encourage exploring. Another incentive to explore is for the player to see all the amazing things Alchemy did back then and how each clan used it differently to create awesome cities and many other things. I want to wow the player similar to how I was wow'd when I was climbing the clouds in Dark Dawn (IMO one of the good things in the game).
QuoteAnyway. I see you need to have characters. Those are very important. ( it is an RPG after all)
By picking characters from different races and villages on Wayard you could make an interesting party.
The party members would be a bit larger than the classic back-to-back 8 though you won't be able to have with you more than two groups of 4 as with the normal games. For example I had planned on having a Jupiter Beast-man from Garoh and even a Non-Adept from Ankohl who is a genius craftman (Briggs' grandma ancestor) and whose class setup doesn't change with Djinn but instead with the weaponry he develops, like an Alchemy Gun or different types of Golems (perhaps in your own game you could have something similar with a young Obaba or her Master?). The main character would be a jack of all trades who can be built into a mage or warrior depending on what weapons you equip him/her and the djinn class setup he/she gets and you'd be able to decide at the beginning what element you'll want to be either directly or through some intricate "personality" test disguised as gameplay (though it will probably be messy with all the combinations). Plus the existing Adept prototypes: the Holy Knight-like Squire Earth adept and a Venus Dark Mage counterpart, the Fire Soldier and the Flame User, the Jupiter Witch/Sorcerer (and the Garoh Beast-Man would be it's physical attacker counterpart), the Water Cleric and the Mariner/Aqua Knight.
I've updated the concept for Jupiter and added a clearer World Map of the past Weyard
Quoteand expecting you to visit it simply because it's there
Probably should go there anyway... just to check out the equipment shops/restock on items... whether you buy anything, is up to you. :D (Just so that it doesn't seem 100% random that you're going there.) - Apart from that, do you think such towns should be optional if not mentioned in story? Umm... (Or at least up until it is mentioned.) (Not sure if this is the right wording I'm looking for, probably not, but umm.. .okay.)
Quoteyou won't be able to have with you more than two groups of 4 as with the normal games.
Would it be more like Star Ocean 3 = Once you've picked your characters, you can't switch them out? Or can you?
---
Not that everything has to be original anyway... since even Golden Sun uses the Roman/Greek Gods for stuff... (Enemies and Summons. etc...) ... so making references to what is already out there in life, and switching it up a bit is a possibility. (i.e. As a reference to Idling To Rule The Gods, I could make Tyrant Baal a Hardcore Bonus Boss (With 100% critical rate) or something.)
--PS/Trivia = Adventure Capitalist (Might have found out about it last year?) Got me into Idle games for some reasons... but may have to warn you that they might only be interesting in the beginning... (I think.) However, some people may find them addicting after you get started... it's like a curse. :P---
@Sense of Direction = So what is the most un-obvious thing about direction in GS1? I randomly thinking about just before you meet Mia.... and the entry to Venus Lighthouse (maybe)... hmmm... It's possible Crossbone Isle could be one if you're trying to complete it early and don't have all the psynergy. (i.e.: need Cloak if accessed from Karagal Sea.) ... but I didn't think about it much.
I never felt that much of issue with direction in GS1, the geography of the greater Angara area is like a big hallway, at most when you go to Northeast Angara and you can either go to Kolima or to Imil, otherwise I felt it straight-forward. GS2 is also fairly straight-forward up until you get the ship, afterwards all you know is that you gotta get to Lemuria, but it's not very clear that you need to get the pieces of the trident or that Yepp's song is a cheat sheet for entering the Sea of Time, Gaia and Aqua Rocks feel more like side-quests (which is actually good in its own way), but they are absolutely musts and I would've liked, with all the wordiness that comes with GS games, that the party also mention them as an objective rather than just stumbling on them and being "well lets just see whats in there".
Well yeah... but I was looking for worst case scenario for GS1 (on first run) for comparison reasons... since I don't think that part was fully mentioned...(unless I missed it somehow.) But it's obvious that once you know the game, you'll probably know what to do nearly every time... (i.e. Would you even know to use Douse when you are in a tornado if you've never played that before?) ... where-as GS2 might be more obscure (and you may even need to play through it a second time, in some cases?).
Directionless: Pretty much what Rad said; GS1 was pretty good for that, whereas GS2 was incredibly bad for that after getting the boat. You only ever get vague hints of where you have to go, like Lemuria, Jupiter Lighthouse, and Prox. Champa and repairing the boat in Alhafra even comes off as being a sidequest when you first start, since there is never any indication that you need to go to Champa to get the god-killing artifact (which itself isn't explicitly stated to be necessary until after you get the boat).
The worst-case GS1 scenario (of required plot events) would probably be Bilibin/Imil/Kolima, and even then you have to do both of those dungeons before you can go further. The game forces you down a pretty linear yet maze-like path until you beat the game, unless you decide to do optional stuff like Lunpa or Crossbone Isle. Actually, knowing where Goma and the bush that Ivan has to blow away with whirlwind are may be a little tricky if you're brand new to the game. Not sure which is worse for direction.
Simply because it's there: True, it probably is a good idea to get gear from these towns. The main point is that it's kind of lazy to direct a player based on something like that, just like it is lazy to use minor barriers in a way that basically forces the plot. You can't go directly to Venus Lighthouse from Mercury because a) a bridge is out north of Kalay (making it necessary to explore the rest of Angara), b) a tiny little mudslide (making it necessary to go to Kalay and do the Karagol Sea sequence), c) Tolbi's soldiers block your path on another bridge (this one is a little better than the last two, but it still makes the rest of GS1's plot mostly about Babi rather than the lighthouses). Including the first bridge, the only thing forcing you to go to Mercury rather than attempting to go to Venus first is that another bridge is out south of Kolima. GS2 does this as well, most notably with the rock in the Gondowan-Indra pass. One little rock prevents you from doing your quest and forces you to visit several towns, complete several dungeons, and watch several cutscenes. Half of the game happens just so you can remove a rock, and there is no explanation about why the rock is there or how to get past it until you have the right item to do so. At least the game sort of explains why you have to sail through there and it's obvious without the explanation.
So yeah, I also share the sentiment that it would have been nice for the games to tell you why you have to do many of the things you do throughout the story.
Douse in tornadoes: Sort of actually. The guards in that one town say something about seeing people use water in them, hinting that you have to use Douse. Definitely a valid point otherwise for when you know the games, but the main issue is when you're learning them.
@Update of the list:
I like the contigo idea. I always imagined the hole you see in the overworld was created because a part of the ground came along with the city and then formed the moon.
@That one rock blocking your path:
Yeah, it's a shame there is no sequence break. You can never catch up with Saturos and Co. for some reason. On my first playthoughs of it I didn't mind. But you have to really emerged in the game to make it feel realistic (I remember one or two NPC mentioning the group and causing a landslide).
There is also no Psynergy to remove those obstacles.
These points are indeed something to address when making a fangame.
@Pacing and directions in GS games:
GS1 Indeed pretty straight forward in a good way. I also like that there are a few things you can do in any order. (like Lunpa Fortress and MecLight)
But after a few times playing, walking on the overworld in the last part of the game takes a really long time. (if you want to revisit Altin for a Djinni for example takes very long).
GSTLA Yeah... I played this one only one time so my description isn't totally accurate.
I thought the whole game was a bit vague with directions (even the beginning) and at some point I missed something and had to take a long route to get there again (one way in some desert). The Yepp song wasn't obvious indeed. Before you get the wings, you can explore a lot, but can't get further, because you lack the psynergy at some places. And the sailing with the boat was just as long as it was in Wind Waker for me.