Golden Sun Hacking Community

Just thought I would run this by everyone, this question is especially directed to those who have performed work on modifications to Golden Sun such as The Balance Age, which modifies the class system in Golden Sun, just want to see where everyone is on this subject.



This is an idea I've been floating for awhile but have only now started to take a look at: how to implement a meaningful Golden Sun-esque class system and Psynergy system into Minecraft, to complement the Golden Sun: Decor and Golden Sun: Djinn mods I've completed previously, links below. I am putting thought in particular into how best to translate the class system of Golden Sun into a Minecraft setting (for the unitiated, Minecraft utilizes a player.dat file custom to each player, ie: player name 'John' logs into World A, "john.dat" is created in World A's Save that tracks all aspects of John's progress in that world, including amount of experience required until next level, items in inventory, active potion attributes, position in world, etc).

I want to avoid over-doing the issue, however, as I know how drilled-down one can get into the nitty gritty of stats and multipliers with classes in Golden Sun.

I am currently leaning towards a simple Character Creation suite, accessible to a new Minecraft player at start-up upon creating a new world, logging in to a world as a new player for the first time, or via an in-game Command or Key Bind.

This Suite would follow a slightly altered version of Golden Sun's character naming process, where the player is able to enter a Name to be known by, (defaulting to Isaac or Matthew; in the above image of a quick text input field & label GUI I've created in Minecraft 1.9, I default to Matthew) select an Elemental Affiliation (Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Mercury [Luna and Sol can be added at a later time if desired, keep it simple]) select a Character Portrait to accompany your outbound chat text (with a selection of all Golden Sun/TLA/Dark Dawn portraits to choose from, perhaps allow the user to add .PNG files up to 72x72 to a directory in the mod folder for custom character portraits at a later time) and a default class for each element, each class with its own series of stat modifiers leveling in tandem with the stats assigned to them in vanilla Golden Sun. In traditional RPG form, the user may utilize any number of criteria (determinable at a later time) to change from one class to another, or ascend to higher tiers of a class.

The Name, Element, and Character Portrait defaults set by the player at game start would be used to affect two in-game features, the Chat box and combat. The Chat box would be affected in that it would be replaced at least partially with a more Golden Sun-esque chat system, where small backgrounds appear momentarily with user-entered text and an accompanying Character Portrait. Combat would be affected by Element affiliation, those who belong to Mars will perform less effectively in terms of damage dealt to and will take a higher rate of damage from those belonging to Mercury, and so on. Classes would translate to Minecraft by applying a multiplier to the player's stats. There are some ways this may be achieved (I'm considering segmenting which classes are available to the user by gender, ie: no female player will be able to have a Gallant class, no male player will be a Witch, etc.).

I believe this achievable basic setup would become a foundation upon which other additions to Minecraft could be added, such as monsters from the Golden Sun series, a meaningful Psynergy system, and other key components from the series.

To implement this, which of the following options do you think would be most appropriate:

1. - Use stats from vanilla Golden Sun as references to apply arguably equivalent effects to a Minecraft player
2. - Scale stats from vanilla Golden Sun to fit Minecraft in a vanilla Minecraft-friendly way (no one-hit kills)
3. - Use stats directly from vanilla Golden Sun in Minecraft without regard to how they affect vanilla Minecraft experience (my favorite, I find the vanilla Minecraft experience to be an empty shell, not to be preserved)

http://forum.goldensunhacking.net/index.php?topic=2436.0 (http://forum.goldensunhacking.net/index.php?topic=2436.0)
http://forum.goldensunhacking.net/index.php?topic=2645.0 (http://forum.goldensunhacking.net/index.php?topic=2645.0)

Interesting...

Is this going to be flat vanilla, or is it going to try to address some of GS' mechanical failings?

Most likely the former, I didn't know Golden Sun had any particular mechanic issues until your post lol.

@mechanical issues: You mean like Summon Rushing?

If it was me, I think I'd prefer selecting Name, Gender, and Element all of the same screen so that it feels a bit shorter.... (And we don't have to feel like a bunch of things may come next.) but I guess it is up to a person's preferences.
Edit: And Character portrait.... It goes well beside the name anyway... and I'm sure it may even affect some people's naming decisions even... (maybe-ish.)

No, I mean that in later levels a wooden stick does more damage than even powerful spells like spark plasma and grand gaia.

Fixing summons is easy.  Just make them actually summon a mob.

Personally I'd call that an interesting bit of trivia lol, kind of awesome actually, going to town in end-game with a stick of all things. Could draw comparisons with the Zelda series' use of items obtained early in the game during end-game boss battles, such as the Fishing Rod and others. You can distract Ganondorf (and Demise as well, if I'm not mistaken) with items like the Fishing Rod, causing them to pause momentarily perhaps out of awe of the sheer ridiculousness on display, allowing you to get a few good attacks in. I'd say that adds charm lol; a quality Golden Sun is often thought to have, perhaps more so than any particular technical issues.

Not a bad idea, Fox, was thinking about how it would look all on one page. It would certainly make for a more open GUI, worth taking a look at. The current GUI I have here is a simple draft where opening the Name Entry page triggers the Golden Sun GBA start-up tone and starts to play the Golden Sun Menu Screen music, where entering a name and pressing OK triggers a Menu Select sound effect and opens the Gender Select screen, where selecting Boy or Girl simultaneously triggers a Menu Select sound effect and a short snippet of either a male or female 'voice' from the game (the squeaky voice everyone has, it's great lol) and opens the Element Select page, where selecting an Element simultaneously triggers a Menu Select sound effect and a 'sparkling' Djinn sound effect from Dark Dawn. Each page with the exception of the Name Entry page also offers the ability to go back. The idea is to use each user variable to determine how to build the Creation Suite spec; if the user selects Boy, a fork is then followed, where they will be led to a Character Portrait Select screen that only displays male portraits, and a possible Class Select page (changeable later on at any time) will therefore not display classes exclusive to females, such as Witch, and vice versa. Can use the NameEntry variable possibly as a string to be used in a feature such as the Minecraft chat box modification I mentioned earlier, where the name you entered is displayed next to your character portrait a la Golden Sun for a few seconds. The Name field is currently limited to 8 characters, up from Golden Sun's original limit of 5.

I have a feeling I may prefer the current setup of keeping each function separate from others over having all functions onscreen at one time, however, as I like to imagine the result is being displayed from a small device, such as the GBA screen for example. Gives it a pleasant vibe true to the source. That, and as many of the icons used are extracted from GS/TLA/DD, the image resolution tends to be on the smaller side, the images will often fare better on a smaller screen. Having too many small items display to the user at the same time may have a jarring effect.

If we take this a bit deeper.... (which may be unnecessary?)  Here's a quick thought:

-Are we 100% sure about separating female and male portraits? Since well... there is the transgender community and stuff... I'm sure there are people that go by one gender and prefer to look as another... (At least in a role-play/gaming sense... - Thinking of all those guys that use female characters, heheh...) - And basically, I can see people using the custom portrait thing to get the image that is already there, in that case.... So I'm thinking maybe a set-up where only the gender-related ones show up by default, but that there is a checkbox to show full list?

-How about people that want to be genderless? (Like referred to as "they" or "it"?)

And there probably is a way to still make the "all functions on one page" still work... but I haven't come up with any design plans yet... At worst, I can imagine needing a scroll bar, though. (Like if displaying in list format.)

Quite sure, lol. The transgender community will have to resign themselves to using traditional pronouns for this occasion, if that can be managed. Think anything more than this from a development standpoint is a bit beyond the scope of a Golden Sun Minecraft mod. The importance of a true gender is notable in that it would affect which classes are available to the user.

Also added a quick demo video of the current setup:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nu8KnzbWO_k (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nu8KnzbWO_k)

Golden Sun does not originally distinguish between gender for classes, females can be Wizards, Swordsmen, Monks etc. If it seems like it would be an issue, you can use gender neutral class names or make alternate versions based on gender. But having gender restrictions for classes seems like it would be unnecessary. I'm more concerned about the fact that the female option has beast ears...

Bashing stuff with a stick is not quite as charming as it sounds, it's essentially the same as bashing them with a sword but slightly worse. However, I think the issue has less to do with physical damage being based on a stat that scales with level, and more to do with attack spells becoming obsolete by the time you get them once your levels start hitting the 30-40 range.

It might be a good idea to have several different class lines to pick from for each element and build.  After all, if they want to be a physical jupiter adept, why force them into the more mage-like classes vanilla uses?  Also, what are your plans for alt-classes?  IMO, it's probably a bad idea to stick with vanilla for those, since those are optimized for Team Isaac, and only for Team Isaac...

Quote from: Majora on 24, May, 2016, 10:48:49 PM
Personally I'd call that an interesting bit of trivia lol, kind of awesome actually, going to town in end-game with a stick of all things. Could draw comparisons with the Zelda series' use of items obtained early in the game during end-game boss battles, such as the Fishing Rod and others. You can distract Ganondorf (and Demise as well, if I'm not mistaken) with items like the Fishing Rod, causing them to pause momentarily perhaps out of awe of the sheer ridiculousness on display, allowing you to get a few good attacks in. I'd say that adds charm lol; a quality Golden Sun is often thought to have, perhaps more so than any particular technical issues.

No, that's not "a bit of trivia" - it's one of the major reasons that unleashes are so OP in vanilla.  Basically, attack gets stronger with level, but psynergy has no equivalent stat.  For mages like me, this is a problem.  If you want to keep things strictly vanilla with stats, look into what Caledor did with his patch.  If you want to add new stats for psynergy, I've been working on that.

Perhaps we view the game from a different perspective, seems we may agree to disagree on this issue of scaling stats of the original Golden Sun. Bear in mind, this is a Minecraft mod, the idea is to implement a class system dutiful to the source in a Minecraft setting - balancing the source game's stats to fit a new scaling criteria, easing the Mage's original gameplay experience, and managing females with 'beast ears' are examples of what I consider to be unnecessarily beyond the scope of a Minecraft mod. A classic case of getting a little too bogged down in detail work.

/me shrugs.

To me, it's just simply have eight classes for each element, each one independent of gender.  Though to say eight is a bit off.  You're basically doing this for both warriors and casters:

Attacker - Direct offense, like Isaac
Defender - Direct defense, like Garet
Controller - Indirect offense, like Ivan
Supporter - Indirect defense, like Mia

Whether you approach it like the Balance Patch or like my Character Creation system is up to you.  If you don't want to do either, then just make four per element, one class for each of those.  That should be sufficient enough for people to have both good class options, and pick the element they want.  Having multiple power sources (whether it be PP or Casting is irrelevant) would allow for people like me to play in the way they want, even if it's not fully customizable.

As for Gender... that shouldn't really even be considered, since that's easily done via skins and the Gender mod.  Might as well remove the step, since it shouldn't have any bearing on what you're trying to do.

Definitely an interesting approach.
I was thinking to perhaps integrate all existing classes from the first game, Squire, Knight, Gallant, and so on. What I'm still thinking through is by which variable should the user be able to choose which class they like. In Golden Sun, the number and type of Djinn you assign to one character is what drives this. This could be achieved in Minecraft in a similar way, perhaps an If Then type setup (check for items in player inventory/r/n If item x And item y And item z exist in inventory, do event). I could use existing assets from the Djinn mod, if needed. I'm sure there are other methods that can be used to achieve this, as well

...Okay, first, you don't have to explain how classes work to any of us.  In fact, it's likely we've got a better understanding of how it works than you given how long we've worked with it.

Second, the examples you gave are all from the same class line (in this case, the Slayer line), so a better example might have been Slayer, Chaos Lord, and Protector.

Finally, keep in mind the absolute mess that alt-classes cause for groups other than Isaac's.  It's why Jenna Syndrome and Piers Syndrome exist.  You'll need to come up with a solution to that problem - and YES, it is a problem.  Personally, I think a simple Inversion/shift toggle would be fine, and keep the spirit of what you want to do, but given your statements thus far, I wonder...

No need to be rude, Rolina, I understand that this is a topic you have invested quite a bit of time into. This is why the thread is directed to people such as yourself, who have a better understanding of the class system in Golden Sun than I. The reason I use extra exposition in this thread is to help clarify the topic to new visitors, perhaps someone coming to this thread via a Google search, to provide some context. Please calm down.

/me sighs.

Stupid written text not translating tone.  I'm not mad or angry.  Mildly amused, perhaps.  But not angry.

Okay, so lets look away from all of that for now, since you're being stubborn and not listening to suggestions.  So instead, let me ask you something simple - will this mod be friendly with other mods?

I am with Rolina... She didn't seem mad or angry when I read that post... (And if that's the way she sounded, I'm sure she didn't mean it that way.)

(And I also like the thing about not limiting the classes to gender-specific... based on what Misery said. - If that's the way it works, and we start making them gender specific, then I start wondering if we're going into another direction... Maybe something similar to what Final Fantasy MIGHT do... I dunno. - But I guess we can be open to mixes like that, just like how art isn't about being perfect.)


GS1 is just elemental levels, GS2 introduces item classes and one class line to Jenna's base classes (Flame User line.), and another clas line to Piers's base classes.... Does GS3 do anything notable?

As far as I'm concerned, you don't even need to name the classes.  Sure, many people will recognize them, but giving the ability for someone to choose their own name for their class I'm sure would be welcomed, or maybe just don't use class names in and of themselves.  After all, the vast majority of people who play minecraft probably haven't even heard of golden sun.  Not explicitly naming classes would probably be a good thing when trying to adapt it to the Minecraft audience.

Fox: GS3 gives the whole second party the Jenna/Piers treatment, as well as adding a couple additional class lines for some characters and the whole Sveta/werewolf mechanic. For everything the game did wrong, this actually was a marked improvement over GS2.


Gender/sex issue: I agree with the others, why should it have a bearing on class or gameplay itself? Don't forget that this is a pretty open game where people can choose their own skins and can also decide what to do with their time, and is also one where nothing is gendered unless players want them to be. The point of Minecraft is essentially to make what you want of it. But then there's this:

QuoteThe transgender community will have to resign themselves to using traditional pronouns for this occasion, if that can be managed.

Forcing gender roles into this mod while also saying something like this comes off as condescending at best and offensive at worst, not only towards transgender and others (depending on preferred terms, pronouns, etc.), but also towards those who do identify with other roles or even with a male/female binary. Going by your examples, why can't a man be a witch? Why should gallant be male-only at all, when gender identity plays no part in one being brave and heroic? What about those who don't place themselves within a male-female binary? For example, someone who is two-spirited?

Plus, it seems like it would take more effort to program combat around this rather than just leaving things more open to customization. In a version of this mod without assigned man or wolfwoman gender roles, I would expect a few things:
- To either have the ability to design my own portraits, even if it just copies the face of my character's current skin, or not have them at all;
- Assuming you use voice clips, the ability to choose from any voice clip I want (like in Saints Row 3, where I was a buff blue dude with a female voice);
- The ability to call a class whatever I want every time I go into it, even if the name isn't actually saved or written anywhere;
- The ability to name or at least choose which abilities I can have upon entering said class (with limits for the sake of balance), and while on the subject of expectations;
- The ability to name any djinn I get, and also to store them indefinitely like I would items in a chest.

With these, I could have my settings actually match what I see for my Minecraft character (currently skinned as a leatherman/daddy bear for a joke, which most GS portraits do not match), and I could enjoy adventuring as whoever I want in any GS or non-GS themed world as I see fit. More importantly, you wouldn't have to code for any differences in gender whatsoever because everything related to gender would be up to the player to decide, and there would be one less mechanic that you have to patch later on.


Also, given that you're trying to adapt GS mechanics to Minecraft, I could even argue that you would be further ahead to scrap stats and leveling up altogether and just use djinn to decide moveset eligibility and spell power. You could still allow for warrior adepts to exist by balancing equipment and physical abilities so they don't overpower magical adepts, and you could still allow for monster scaling and differences in difficulty through the djinn system. Perhaps changing it so djinn unlock spell tiers rather than spell lines would be better for a Minecraft setting?


Otherwise, I'm a tad curious about why you made the poll rather than just a topic/post. You seem to be pretty set on how you want to balance stats and other things, to the point where you are arguing in favour of several things in a way that almost sounds like you're set on them despite the introduction post stating otherwise; you even stated what your preferred option was in the poll itself. What kind of input are you looking for exactly?

True, I do prefer the option to integrate stats as they exist rather than scaling, adjusting, or altering them to account for perceived issues with the original or with regard to how they affect Minecraft's combat experience (my reasoning for this is multi-faceted, but a primary point is, upon completing this basic framework of stat modification based on some allowed user-entered variables, interesting things such as Monsters with weaknesses and strengths based upon your Element can be implemented at a later point. Who would even want to fight dull vanilla creepers or zombies when you have Dullahan to contend with lol, would be low-level shenanigans in comparison with end-goal's results).

I choose to emphasize the importance of gender as a variable that affects separate elements for many reasons, but foremost so as to allow the user a more custom Minecraft experience, which even the most stubborn person can agree often has a degree of separation from the user. Of course you can dress up your user skin as fully as you possibly can within the limitations of ~16x16 textures and square model shapes, but the experience itself does not change to reflect your choice; you are a model that exists to break blocks, lol. Think of Pokemon, Final Fantasy, even Zelda to a degree post Hyrule Warriors: Legends, you are given a greater ability to customize the game experience to you, be it by playing as a male or female, or as your favorite character. In practice, this is the difference between not implementing a feature at all, implementing a feature based reasonably upon two static variables, and implementing a feature based on an indeterminable number of variables, one for however many gender options one may insist on being included. For this purpose, I do not find this reasonable level of customization a topic of debate. Further, I also do not find one's gender identity to be a primary port of call in developing or not developing a feature; restricting development to account for one demographic among many is not feasible from a development standpoint, and does not suit the goal of this project. There are places for issues like these, neither this Minecraft mod nor this thread are among them.

Of course we all feel a certain way, it's rare for one not to have an opinion, which is why liberty was taken to include and label my own in parenthesis within the list of three available polling options, where it currently seems to be leading, as of 5/27. Feasibility is paramount in any project, and speaking bluntly, Golden Sun 1 would still be in development to this day if each project aspect were open to discussion with the goal of pleasing everyone, lol, that's life, unfortunately. I ask for your opinion on the issue to see where you stand, as everyone is capable of producing interesting ideas, which are of course welcome and are not all implausible, but please do not confuse consultation with a promise to consider, modify, or allocate development time one way or another.

If you want to incorporate a sense of "gender" without explicitly calling it that, use something like "build." A "sturdy build" would correlate to male, and a "light build" would correlate to female, but it doesn't prevent someone from having a sturdy female or a light male. This tackles the same problem while sidestepping the gender issue.

Minecraft being less customizable than those games: Um, what? I could maybe see a game like Skyrim being a worthy comparison, but all of your examples have pretty rigid plots and settings that encourage a set path and lead you towards a predetermined conclusion. Minecraft is digital Lego, which can be whatever one wants it to be. Leaf's suggestion is honestly a much better way to handle "gender" in a way that still allows further customization within the framework you want to use, but without the other issues that would arise from a gender thing.

Quote from: Majora on 27, May, 2016, 06:50:23 PM
...I ask for your opinion on the issue to see where you stand, as everyone is capable of producing interesting ideas, which are of course welcome and are not all implausible, but please do not confuse consultation with a promise to consider, modify, or allocate development time one way or another.

So you want to see our ideas, but want little to do with them unless they fit with what you're looking to do? Unless I'm reading this wrong, because it's starting to look like you just want us to validate your ideas rather than offer constructive criticism to improve your final mod. What's the point in even making the topic or poll if this is the case?

@Witch: Looking at dictionary.com, I think you can still technically call a guy a "Witch", it's just that it's more dominate in a woman. While warlock directly states male... even with the word "witch" there.

witch:
a person, now especially a woman, who professes or is supposed to practice magic or sorcery; a sorceress.

warlock
a man who professes or is supposed to practice magic or sorcery; a male witch; sorcerer.

--
So my question is? Do we have a list of all the gender-specific classes? (Nice to have an idea for how many.)


--
Am I right to assume this?
People in favor of not using a gender variable are?
Teawater/Fox, Lord Squirtle, Rolina, Misery

People in favor of using a gender variable are?
Majora

I'm still worried about this mod not playing nice with others.  Integrating stats themselves, rather than adapting spells to work according to minecraft mechanics, can basically break the hell out of the game.  Think about HP alone, and how that'll break the s*** out of the game.

Default minecraft HP is 20 - 2 per heart.  GS maxes out at 1999, effectively 2000 for ease of rounding.  Even if you were to say Minecraft HP = GS HP/10, you have the issue of the fact that 200 is a low level value for HP... for mages in GS, and they have super low HP growths and multipliers.  That means very quickly, you're going to hit higher values.  Think about how that's going to effect the balance of the game.  We're talking it not very difficult to actually hit 5 rows of hearts - and because you're likely to have stuff scale with other stats, it basically means that ONLY the GS mod will be worth using in minecraft.  If you try doing it so that GS HP/100, then the opposite happens - your turn every other mod out there into OP instakill weapons.

And what if you were to separate HP from Hearts?  Well, then why the hell would I use GS stuff to attack HP, when I can use Ars Magica and Thaumcraft and kill you quickly by attacking your hearts instead of HP.

That's why the whole discussion of how to convert stats I think is problematic - you're not taking into account how people play minecraft, and if you decide to make this standalone, it will be passed over in favor of other mods that are friendly with one another.


@Witch/Warlock:  These are both gender neutral.  The example of a Witch in D&D manuals is male.  My warlock character is a girl (Marida).  I even have a full GS class for her:
[spoiler](http://i.imgur.com/SqAUqvo.png)[/spoiler]

Quote from: Lord Squirtle on 27, May, 2016, 07:27:06 PM
So you want to see our ideas, but want little to do with them unless they fit with what you're looking to do?

You are correct. Hardly a far-fetched concept, of course not every single idea can be considered. I wouldn't take it to heart, there are plenty of ideas I would like to implement as well that are certainly desirable, but in practice just aren't quite achievable either.

I think what Squirtle was trying to say there was that you don't need ideas if you already know what you're going to do.

Now, I don't play Minecraft so I can't get too involved with the specifics, but everything so far seems like relatively simple suggestions. You act as if the notion that something could potentially not be the most efficient distribution of work in regards to the end result (according to what measure?) means you have to dismiss any and all ideas with no consideration. You're not on a budget or a deadline, you don't have to manage a staff, allocate resources, or meet a certain result. You can do as much or as little as you feel like.

So, don't ask other people for ideas if you don't intend to consider them. If you don't want to do something because you disagree with the idea or just don't want to put in the effort... that's perfectly fine. But trying to rationalize it any other way just looks silly.

Aye.  You're blatantly dismissing and ignoring people, rather than actually accepting the very thing you're asking for.  Makes one ask why you're even here, if you're just going to reject everything.

@Witch/Warlock:  These are both gender neutral. 

I was going for a real-world point-of-view...(Based on dictionary.com --witch(neutral), warlock(male))  But for the game, it seems to be...  I don't even know if it's like... the class is male, and that doesn't stop a girl or boy from using the class... Similar to how a pencil or pen can be a boy or girl... (Thinking about romantic languages)... but that doesn't stop either of us from using one....

---

QuoteI think what Squirtle was trying to say there was that you don't need ideas if you already know what you're going to do.

Similar to what I thought... But I'm guessing he may not know *exactly* what he's going to do... b/c, for example... I don't see that male/female class separation list yet!  Which I believe may be one of the key points to proving that it (and its feasibility) has been fairly well thought-out.  (I think maybe it is more work than it is worth.)  But perhaps maybe the wrong questions are being asked...?

Still say it'd be easier just to have people name their class.

...Actually, now that I think about it, why the hell would we be naming our character?  Wouldn't we be using the Minecraft names?

@Naming own classes: That could work... unless in a multiplayer setting where people are suppose to be /sharing/ the same classes... um... I dunno. (e.g. Even if two people saw the same class with two different names, how would we refer to the class by name if we wanted to explain something?)

@Names:  Ooh! You raise a valid point.
Maybe he wants to add in character swapping? (So each person gets to control a whole party.)

@sharing classes:  Would it matter?  One person's Knight is another person's Gladiator.  Not everyone would use them the same way, especially since he'll have to adapt all the psynergy from GS to Minecraft.  I mean, he's gonna have to figure out various things like range, shape, and duration.  Those can't be simply translated from GS to Minecraft, you know?  Still, depending on how they play, they may find Flare Wall more useful than Fireball, due to it's area being closer (and thus closer to melee range).

Hmm... Probably doesn't matter. (It depends on if whether anyone sees it as confusing... but I guess I kind of doubt it... )

And then the next question would be: If anyone could change the name of their own class willy-nilly, then why would we need class names? (I start seeing it as a name separate from the class itself.) (Of course, it may still serve a cosmetic role-playing experience/purpose.) And then... Chances are that people wouldn't change them too often for the same reasons we don't change our usernames often. So umm.. yeah. I guess it doesn't matter?

As for translating it to Minecraft... I guess it could depends on how you do it. (Initialize a battle much like the one in GS? Which might seem strange?..., Or have it all done on the playing field? Etc.)
Oh the giggles at just imagining how those random battles would work in multiplayer. :D Probably very annoying and not fun. - It's like we could do it the way M&L does it, and base initializing a battle screen on collision with a visible enemy.... And then there's the question/strategy/balance of how co-operative (players=allies) and competitive (players=enemies) play would work out.... Since like, if the fight occured on the overworld... your friend might be an attacker, and you might be a caster. If you use a high area-of-effect psynergy on a monster... whether it should hit your friend or not could be something to think about.

Well, to be fair, you don't "need" the mod, either.  Ars Magica, Thaumcraft, and Witchery cover a lot of what people would look for in a golden sun mod.  As such, you'd need this to act like another magical option.  Each of those has their own system, and this would provide another.  I'd personally suggest staying away from all stats save for PP, and using the PP values of the classes you're basing it off of.  This would give a "fuel" value that recovers over time to prevent spamming of psynergy.  Another thing I'd recommend is to fill in the gaps left behind by vanilla.  Remember how there isn't a Samurai counterpart to the Paladin line?  Well, minecraft players will expect that.  Remember, you're not making this for GS fans, you're making this for minecraft fans.  You have to play into that.

There would be no battle screen.  ALL of this will have to take place live.  I don't think you guys get it - Minecraft isn't turn based.  It's live.  You'll have to convert ALL of GS' spells into action RPG counterparts.  That's not an insignificant effort.  You suddenly have to start thinking about things like the shapes of spells, as well as magnitude.  Remember, GS doesn't do flat damage across the board - spells get weaker further from the main target.  You'll have to find a way to make that work in a 3D game, and you can't just take the tactical RPG and convert it to tile based, either.  They can and will cast these at angles to all three coordinates - x, y, and z.

Stats and class is literally the LAST thing you should be thinking about.  The first thing to work on?  Get the spells working and looking good in minecraft.  The rest can follow afterwards, but you NEED to make sure the damn thing actually works before you try anything else.

QuoteThere would be no battle screen.  ALL of this will have to take place live.  I don't think you guys get it - Minecraft isn't turn based.  It's live. 

Doesn't mean we can't try it as an experiment... Basically Minecraft is an open sandbox... And I'm sure we could have several different mods taking different approaches. (But I am not planning on working on something like that any time soon...if I even choose to(?) (I wouldn't mind an all-in-one approach allowing for both options... Exclusively... and if you're a crazy dev with a wacky idea, maybe even both together as well. - One example could be the use of a special amulet that "slows down time" to properly allow for turn-based battles... I never said that was a "good idea"... but just an example.)

I know that SMBO is a multiplayer fangame that has done a battle screen thing.... (If I recall from memory.) So...


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Also, another thing to note is that not everything in a 3D game has to be 3D... For example, those trees in SM64.... You just need to figure out special tricks and stuff... and didn't GS1/GS2 's battles sort of fake 3D? (The background and the PC/enemy sprites are 2D.) -- I am not sure if the calculation used for spell animations in battles would work enough or not... At least for a prototype.  (One of the things I haven't done a lot of studying on, unfortunately. Extracting them (The code for it) would surely take a lot of effort, though.)

This would also completely alienate other mods.  You may call it an experiment, but in today's modding culture in minecraft, it's it's not something that'll work well in a mod pack, it will be ignored.

Fox... how familiar are you with Minecraft and Modded Minecraft?  The comments you're making are baffling to me, since nearly everything you just said sounds completely devoid of context.

I do agree that it would be less used... yes... Perhaps I should wait for someone else to show interest before going into greater detail.

@Minecraft: I remember testing it out a long time ago... Similar to Terraria, which I've also played.
There's day/night... There's mining... You have to build housing/lights to survive the nights... Etc. - It's also a popular game for putting cubes together for art.

And Minecraft Modding? I don't think I even touched? (I know there is one popular one... at least... But haven't bothered with it.)


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It's a common thing to test a game, and then end up never going back to it... However, there are cases where I do keep coming back... (like RuneScape.) And even with that one I keep taking long breaks.

Role, I've gotten a few warnings about you in this topic.  Please calm down.

@Kain:  Why?  I've not actually done anything meriting that.  

@Fox:  Yeah, check it out, if nothing than to get a feel for the stuff I'm saying.  The three mods I'm most familiar with for magic are Ars Magica, Thaumcraft, and Witchery, each of which approach it differently (Ars Magica is spellcraft based, Thaumcraft is tool-based, Witchery is primal-based).  A GS mod would actually fit in super well, since it'd be class and level based, essentially providing a different system that wouldn't interfere with the others.  You could even tie it in with minecraft's XP system to a degree, too.  It'd be a really great addition if approached right... But, well... There are things you have to consider when transitioning from one genre and/or culture into another, and compatibility with like mods is going to be huge.  If he can pull it off, it might even get popular in magic-centric modpacks.