I'm assuming most of you are familiar with the smash bros series. Brawl hacking has come far enough along that we're actually able to add almost entirely new movesets to characters, and through texture and model hacking, play as almost anyone imaginable. However, that requires a group to actually put forth the effort to make that happen. I'm currently working with a group for creating a playable isaac in brawl. While we're using isaac's assist trophy model, most of the animations have to be made from scratch. This makes the sky the limit for what we can make him do, even if the process may be somewhat tedious. As we're still only starting, we need to form a direction for the character. This is where you guys come in. If you've got ideas on how you think isaac should play in brawl, then come out and say it! Should he stick with mostly sword based attacks? Or use mostly psynergy? Should he use psynergies from multiple elements, or just earth? If he uses psynergy from multiple elements, should they be restrained to just field psys? How fast should he move? How high should he jump? Should he be a combo oriented character? Or a zoning character? How good or bad should his recovery be? The questions could go on forever.
The following are my current ideas. Note they're in the mindset of making an isaac for brawl+, not the original brawl, although most of the same concepts will carry over. For those not familiar, brawl+ is essentially a faster paced brawl with a greater focus on combos and pressure (largely due to the higher hitstun and shieldstun, as well as the reduced landing lag on aerials), and a more balanced cast. A version of isaac meant to be played in a brawl without those changed mechanics will also be made. I'd appreciate it if you formulated your own ideas before reading this part, though, since I'd like to hear as many different takes on the character as possible. Also note that nothing here is set in stone.
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Physics:
Short Hop - very short (Brawl+ or Melee Falco SH)
Full Jump - just barely reaches first level Battlefield platforms
Double Jump - weaker than FJ
Momentum - fairly low, but high horizontal jump velocity
Running Speed: somewhere between Marth and Yoshi
Weight: 103 (similar to Link, who is at 104)
Floatiness: similar to Brawl Falco
Playstyle:
Consists of mostly psynergy, though some attacks do use the sword. Predominately uses psynergy from the Squire (and above), Ninja, and Samurai classes, although also uses some psys from the Dragoon class, as well as general field psys.
Plays a game heavily reliant on his range and speed. Being very mobile near the ground, this makes most of his combos horizontal in nature, and also relatively short compared to some of the more combo heavy characters.
Moveset:
Probably going to make the neutral special alternate between Flint and Venus. Flint would be his strongest attack, but also have incredible startup and endlag. Venus would only be usable on the ground.
The UpB will likely be Teleport, capable of moving Isaac a fair distance in one of 16 directions. Although if anyone has a better idea more suiting for him, I'd love to hear it.
Ragnarok will either be Forward B or FSmash.
One attack from each of the Gaia, Quake, and Spire lines will also make it somewhere into the set (probably DownB, DSmash, or DTilt for the first two, though Spire seems more appropriate as an "up" attack of some sort).
Grab will probably be the Catch psynergy, thus making it a ranged grab.
I'm thinking of using Cutting Edge for a Dash Attack and Quick Strike as a Jab (except, you know, actually make it quick).
When invincible during dodges, will also be invisible with an outline, similar to the Avoid/Cloak psynergies.
I think Isaac should be a balanced sort of fighter, with a bit of an orientation towards speed. He should use sword attacks mostly for his basic moves, and only Psynergy for his special moves. for his grab, he casts Catch.
Special Moves:
B: Spire: Isaac does a diagonal strike as a spire falls on the same location. Can be charged to increase number of spires that fall, thus increasing both range, as spires fall over a broader area, and power, as the enemy gets hit with more spires. No, unlike Pikachu's Thunder, you can't hit enemies at the top of the stage with this move.
Up+B: Gaia: Isaac casts Gaia, with it centered on himself, sending stones flying upwards. Charging it increase the range greatly, and the power slightly. In the air, he does a Gaia-powered slash similar to Roy's Blazer from Melee that sends him upward.
Down+B: Quake: Isaac thrusts his sword into the ground, creating a Quake centered on himself. Works like Donkey Kong's Down+B
And...
Side+B: Ragnarok: Isaac rushes forward, similarly to Ike's Quick-draw, and releases Ragnarok right in front of him when he reaches an enemy. If he stops dashing before reaching an enemy, he doesn't release Ragnarok. Charging it increases the range of his dash and the power of Ragnarok.
Final Smash: Odyssey! Isaac releases two rings of blue energy. If they hit a target that is mostly horizontal from him, they pin the target in front of him and the target is punctured by two large swords. Then, the energy rings come back to him and Isaac rushes forward and impales the foe on the giant sword, just like in the move in GS. When you hit the target, Golden Sun battle text appears below, saying:
Isaac casts Odyssey!
[enemy] takes [randomly generated number between 500 and 1300] damage!!!
(If target is KO'd) You felled [enemy]!
I also have an idea for Jenna in Smash Bros. Her movement and basic attacks are quite speedy, and she has high jumps, but her Smashes and Special Moves are slow and powerful. She uses her hooked staff in combat.
Basic attack (A): Pressing A once causes her to hit out at the foe with bottom of her staff. Pressing A again and holding it causes her to spin her staff about, hitting anyone in range. Hitting a foe with the hook or pointed bottom of her staff deals a slashing hit that pins the target, while hitting them with closer to the middle of her staff knocks them outwards. Thus, this attack has a sort of "sweetspot" if you hit the target with the edge of the combo.
FSmash: Jenna pulls her staff back and hits out suddenly and viciously with the head of the staff. If you get a good solid hit on the target, the go flying straight horizontal with no vertical knockback, leaving them skittering across the ground. Great at the edge of the stage, as enemies keep their previous vertical momentum, which is probably DOWN.
USmash: Jenna hits out high upwards with her staff, pulling anyone above down, and into a small explosion which she releases from her left hand. The explosion sends enemies flying upwards.
DSmash: Jenna holds her hands upward almost like Sheiks USmash, and slams her hands down and to both sides, releasing a small explosion on either side of her. Sends enemies flying diagonally away from her.
Dash Attack: Jenna does her attack that she uses in GS2: She leaps forward and does a downward diagonal strike.
Special Moves:
B: Fume: Jenna casts Fume, which acts very similarly to Ness's PK Flash, except a good bit faster and it damages enemies along it's path, knocking them into it's path for another hit, until it either hits ground or you release B, at which point it explodes, probably hitting enemies that it pulled in. Hitting a foe along the entire route and into the explosion at the ground horizontal with Jenna should do about 26% damage.
Forward+B: Beam: Jenna casts Beam, sending a powerful heat beam straight horizontally in front of her. Deals about 8% damage as a base, but can be charged to do multiple hits, followed by a finishing hit with high knockback. Fully charging it deals about 30% damage.
Down+B: Impair: Jenna releases a small beam with a very short range. Doesn't do any damage, but if an opponent using their shield is in range, it renders their shield nearly broken (so nearly that if they try to use their shield again right after, it breaks immediately), and stops them from shielding. On impact with a shielding opponent, it does the familiar "shattered shield" defence nerf symbol like in the Golden Sun games.
Up+B: Flare: Jenna casts Flare with it centered on herself, damaging anyone who comes into range. Can be charged to increase damage and vertical range. Casting it without any charge does a measly 6% damage as a base. Fully charged, it does somewhere around 34% damage. I'm not sure how to work her recovery though.
Final Smash: Rising Dragon: Jenna casts Agatio's Rising Dragon, the camera zooms in on Jenna as a dragon of flame rises out of the ground. If it doesn't hit anyone after a short distance, it simply bites its mouth shut and dissipates. If it does hit a target, it carries them out of view of the camera, and then does the sequence we're all so familiar with, but with one crucial difference: As the final explosion happens, Jenna leaps up and starts whacking the target with her staff, Great Aether-style. For the finishing blow, she grabs the opponent on the hook of her staff, spins, and smashes them to the ground far below, with ALMOST final Aether slash power. Does more damage than Ike's Great Aether, but is actually less likely to KO the enemy.
Throws:
Grab (Z): Jenna whips her staff around and up, catching the person in front of her on the staff's hook by their shirt collar/their neck.
Grab Attack (hold Z/A after grab): Jenna lifts the foe off the ground on the hook of her staff, causing the hook to dig into their neck. No blood, of course. Uses the same sound effect as when Snake chokes his opponents. Does 2% damage every half second.
DThrow: Jenna uses her staff to smash the foe to the ground head-first, then stomps on their face.
FThrow: Jenna suddenly jerks her staff upwards, sending the enemy into the air slightly, then hits out with the base of her staff, sending the enemy flying. Has similar knockback to her FSmash, but the knockback isn't as good.
BThrow: Hammer Drop: Jenna whips the foe over her head and to the ground behind her, smashing their back into the ground. Doesn't have much knockback, but does good damage for a throw.
I still don't have a good idea for her UThrow.
I might as well say this now.
for Down B, it would make more sense to use a quake, earthquake or quake sphere, it's power and range increasing the longer it has been since it's last use, similar to Wario's Down B, or ROB's neutral B. A good timing seems to be 40s for Earthquake, and 70s for quake sphere.
I like the idea of Ragnorok as a Side B, just not in the way that Jamie proposed.
Move, quite obviously has to be in it, either as an Up B recovery, or Neutral B projectile. The Up B would kind of lift himself up, and the Neutral B would be kind of like Ivysaur's Side B, where he shoots an auto-targeting Razor Leaf, or a more powerful, slightly slower version of Pit's arrow.
Fsmash should probably be Flint, slightly stronger and slower than Link's first strike of Fsmash, with some sort of Texture of stone covering it. Just for the aesthetic appeal.
Dsmash should be a Gaia or Tremor, that works quite similarly to Lucario's. Usmash single hit, like Ike's, but faster and less powerful.
Catch makes a lot of sense to be a grab, and it should become Force or similar when used as Zair.
His range should be slightly longer that Marth's, his speed slightly slower.
Final Smash:
MEGIDDO!
If an enemy is near him, Isaac does three or four slashes with his sword like Link's. After this, or if there was no enemy near him when he began, Isaac jumps up and we see space, kind of like the background of the Ice Climber's stage... whose name escapes me, or End of Day. A Meteor comes into view, Isaac jumps onto it and slams it with his sword. The meteor slams straight into the stage where Isaac was, going straight through it.
That, or Iris, where after the four slashes, Isaac faces the player, adopting a pose like Pit's, where Pit's picture of Palutena is replaced by Iris' sprite.
And I like the idea where his moves are taken soley from utility psynergy, or from the Squire Class chain.
Oh, and do you want me to ask this at the Temple?
Hm... Well, if you do keep the Smash Orbs (I only like Yoshi's, really). I like the idea for UpB to be Teleport, but you should refer to it as "Escape". For his Final Smash, perhaps it could be like a random Venus summon, but it gives a slight signal before hand (only pure Venus summons, which would be Ramses, Cyleb, and Judgement (and would work in a similar way to Assist Trophies, so Ramses is the most likely to appear, followed by Cyleb, then Judgement with a rare chance of happening)). Venus is a good ability to use, along with Flint (if you can get them in). Quake, Spire, and Ragnarok should be used as a throwing combo (I think some characters have them, if not all). Grab will grab the oponent and also bring them to you (actually, Carry would be cool for this too), and then Isaac will grab the enemy when they are close enough. After doing a few hits, Isaac can throw them and maybe even throw a combo in there. Ragnarok would be a combo for side-throw, Spire will be an up-throw, and Quake would be if slamming them against the ground.
And this is my input for Isaac. The other ideas (for buttons/attacks) that I have not spoken about are not there because I think that everyone's ideas for those would be well suited.
Have a nice day.
Thanks for the replies all.
Quote from: JamietheFlameUserI think Isaac should be a balanced sort of fighter, with a bit of an orientation towards speed. He should use sword attacks mostly for his basic moves, and only Psynergy for his special moves. for his grab, he casts Catch.
Special Moves:
B: Spire: Isaac does a diagonal strike as a spire falls on the same location. Can be charged to increase number of spires that fall, thus increasing both range, as spires fall over a broader area, and power, as the enemy gets hit with more spires. No, unlike Pikachu's Thunder, you can't hit enemies at the top of the stage with this move.
Up+B: Gaia: Isaac casts Gaia, with it centered on himself, sending stones flying upwards. Charging it increase the range greatly, and the power slightly. In the air, he does a Gaia-powered slash similar to Roy's Blazer from Melee that sends him upward.
Down+B: Quake: Isaac thrusts his sword into the ground, creating a Quake centered on himself. Works like Donkey Kong's Down+B
And...
Side+B: Ragnarok: Isaac rushes forward, similarly to Ike's Quick-draw, and releases Ragnarok right in front of him when he reaches an enemy. If he stops dashing before reaching an enemy, he doesn't release Ragnarok. Charging it increases the range of his dash and the power of Ragnarok.
Final Smash: Odyssey! Isaac releases two rings of blue energy. If they hit a target that is mostly horizontal from him, they pin the target in front of him and the target is punctured by two large swords. Then, the energy rings come back to him and Isaac rushes forward and impales the foe on the giant sword, just like in the move in GS. When you hit the target, Golden Sun battle text appears below, saying:
Isaac casts Odyssey!
[enemy] takes [randomly generated number between 500 and 1300] damage!!!
(If target is KO'd) You felled [enemy]!
Gaia as an upB is interesting. It might work, although I'm not sure how to tell the game "spawn this on the stage if the stage is below you, but spawn it from the death zone if it is not." From what we've seen so far, there's a requirement for "on ground" or "in air," but not "there is ground below you."
Quote from: InsularityI might as well say this now.
for Down B, it would make more sense to use a quake, earthquake or quake sphere, it's power and range increasing the longer it has been since it's last use, similar to Wario's Down B, or ROB's neutral B. A good timing seems to be 40s for Earthquake, and 70s for quake sphere.
I like the idea of Ragnorok as a Side B, just not in the way that Jamie proposed.
Move, quite obviously has to be in it, either as an Up B recovery, or Neutral B projectile. The Up B would kind of lift himself up, and the Neutral B would be kind of like Ivysaur's Side B, where he shoots an auto-targeting Razor Leaf, or a more powerful, slightly slower version of Pit's arrow.
Fsmash should probably be Flint, slightly stronger and slower than Link's first strike of Fsmash, with some sort of Texture of stone covering it. Just for the aesthetic appeal.
Dsmash should be a Gaia or Tremor, that works quite similarly to Lucario's. Usmash single hit, like Ike's, but faster and less powerful.
Catch makes a lot of sense to be a grab, and it should become Force or similar when used as Zair.
His range should be slightly longer that Marth's, his speed slightly slower.
Final Smash:
MEGIDDO!
If an enemy is near him, Isaac does three or four slashes with his sword like Link's. After this, or if there was no enemy near him when he began, Isaac jumps up and we see space, kind of like the background of the Ice Climber's stage... whose name escapes me, or End of Day. A Meteor comes into view, Isaac jumps onto it and slams it with his sword. The meteor slams straight into the stage where Isaac was, going straight through it.
That, or Iris, where after the four slashes, Isaac faces the player, adopting a pose like Pit's, where Pit's picture of Palutena is replaced by Iris' sprite.
And I like the idea where his moves are taken soley from utility psynergy, or from the Squire Class chain.
Oh, and do you want me to ask this at the Temple?
The quake idea you listed is really interesting. We're gonna need to do some research into how wario's waft or rob's laser works, because it's currently unknown. It has to be stored
somewhere in the moveset file, but the tools we have available right now don't seem to reveal anything...
I agree that move really should be one of his specials. I was actually thinking of something that used windboxes, which you could control which direction the windboxes were blowing in. The move would have a maximum duration of something like 2 seconds, probably with a range of motion of 8 different directions, and could be ended early by releasing the B button. I was originally thinking it could be his downB, although if we adopt your quake idea, it'd probably be better suited for sideB, leaving fsmash as ragnarok. I don't mention neutral B because I think we're planning on keeping that as flint/venus (as in both, alternating).
I was thinking the same thing for his dsmash (gaia), although I wanted to do something a bit more fantastic for his usmash... I just have no idea what. If nothing better comes up, we'll probably go with something like that, though.
Good to see everyone more or less agrees about making catch his grab, but that's a really good idea about making it use force as a zair. I actually hadn't even thought about giving him a zair.
The final smash... well, we were planning on texture hacking his sword to look like the gaia blade, since it seemed the most appropriate thing to do. Would make megiddo kinda awkward =p
And that would be great if you asked this elsewhere. I've never heard of the temple before, actually. I assume it's a somewhat large GS forum, though?
Quote from: SalanewtHm... Well, if you do keep the Smash Orbs (I only like Yoshi's, really). I like the idea for UpB to be Teleport, but you should refer to it as "Escape". For his Final Smash, perhaps it could be like a random Venus summon, but it gives a slight signal before hand (only pure Venus summons, which would be Ramses, Cyleb, and Judgement (and would work in a similar way to Assist Trophies, so Ramses is the most likely to appear, followed by Cyleb, then Judgement with a rare chance of happening)). Venus is a good ability to use, along with Flint (if you can get them in). Quake, Spire, and Ragnarok should be used as a throwing combo (I think some characters have them, if not all). Grab will grab the oponent and also bring them to you (actually, Carry would be cool for this too), and then Isaac will grab the enemy when they are close enough. After doing a few hits, Isaac can throw them and maybe even throw a combo in there. Ragnarok would be a combo for side-throw, Spire will be an up-throw, and Quake would be if slamming them against the ground.
And this is my input for Isaac. The other ideas (for buttons/attacks) that I have not spoken about are not there because I think that everyone's ideas for those would be well suited.
Have a nice day.
If by "escape" you mean "retreat," I agree. It's all semantics, really, but retreat makes a lot more sense canonically for isaac.
We were thinking about making his FS judgment. Making it have a random chance for various summons... sounds like a lot of extra work lol
I'm a bit confused what you meant when you were talking about the throws... what I got out of that is that he should use psynergy in the throws, which is something I agree with. I think it'd be a good place for some of the field psys that wouldn't fit anywhere else, though, like lift (uthrow), carry (bthrow?), or halt (dthrow?). Actually, force would work well here, too (fthrow).
@Everyone: Thanks for contributing. You can be assured that I'm passing along all of these ideas to the others. If you have any other ideas, please feel free to share.
Oh, for combos? I forget which characters have noticable combos, but it is almost like how Mewtwo could launch the spheres once he throws a person in Melee (I think Lucario can do this in Brawl? I need to play more).
Also, glad that we could help you out.
Have a nice day.
Quote from: Salanewt on 13, December, 2009, 09:42:37 PM
Oh, for combos? I forget which characters have noticable combos, but it is almost like how Mewtwo could launch the spheres once he throws a person in Melee (I think Lucario can do this in Brawl? I need to play more).
Also, glad that we could help you out.
Have a nice day.
Oh... usually when people talk about combos they mean linking one move into another. That's just multiple hits within one throw, which most characters do have.
Yeah. I normally talk about combos like that too, but for the suggestion, I was talking about throwing combos (probably should have stated it more clearly though). Hm... If you just alter the topic title a bit, then we coud end up talking about oter characters in here, lol.
Also, this is a bit out of topic, but which characters do you tend to use?
Have a nice day.
For Gaia, you simply need either "On Ground" or "In Air", because what I meant was that his UpB in the air is basically just a rock elemental version of Roy's Blazer. An upward slash with rocks and Venus energy in it.
@Salanewt: A "Throw combo" implies a combo started with a throw. And it's "Retreat", not "Escape". Role already had to tell you that once if I recall correctly.
Lift as a Uthrow could be interesting. How would Halt work though? Wouldn't it get a bit cheap? You could just freeze the enemy and then keep pounding them while they're immobile.
And actually, for a ZAir, I'd be inclined to use Move rather than Force.
Off-topic: Do you know if anyone's started hacking Tetra the pirate from Wind Waker into Brawl?
Here you go.
http://z9.invisionfree.com/The_Temple_of_Kraden/index.php?showtopic=9212
And "somewhat" large? It is the self-proclaimed largest Golden Sun Fansite in the world.
Jamie? I know. I need to play the game more anyway. Also, that is what I meant by the combos started with a throw, but I was not explaining it correctly.
Have a nice day.
Ooh! Tetra in Brawl? I have thought about that, but I am not sure which character I would reeplace (probably Olimar, but he is the least clone-like out of the characters who I would replace). Then again, I could just find a spot for her somewhere...
Tetra would probably be like Shiek for Toon Zelda, who would basically end up being a clone character.
How about replacing Sonic? No one plays him anyway. And besides, he breaks the game. Sonic is the reason Smash Balls were banned from tourneys.
Oh yeah, that is true. I would replace Sonic anyway, but my friend is sometimes good with him (emphasis on "sometimes"). I would just reduce the power of Sonic's Smash, and maybe replace Toon Link.
Have a nice day.
The only reason one would even HAVE Toon Zelda is to go along with Toon Link. And besides, Toon Link is awesome! He's one of my best characters! Replace Diddy Kong or Luigi! Both have broken priority that renders other players unable to hold on to a smash ball even long enough to use it immediately. Or Dragoon pieces, or anything else. And Luigi's Final Smash automatically kills anyone it hits, essentially. They say it can't work if you're airborn, but it does. It knocks characters clean out of the sky! And because of it's slowmo effect, they can't move and die off the bottom of the stage from trying to dodge it. It's especially dangerous on Delfino Plaza, Final Destination, Lylat Cruise, Battlefield, and any other small stage where you can die off the bottom. And if you don't dodge it, then Luigi can just KO you in one hit with a Fire Jump Punch. He could also just get insane combos one you while you can't hit back or escape. Forward Smash, Forward Smash, Forward Smash, Fire Jump Punch, dead. That move is INSANELY BROKEN.
Other than fan appeal, what was the point of clone characters?
Dr. Mario is a slower but stronger version of Mario.
Pichu is a faster, but self damaging copy of Pikachu.
Give Ganondorf some new moves because Captain Falcon already showed us his moves.
The Ness lookalike should go. I just don't like him.
Falco is just meh with me because I don't really care since I don't use him.
The whole throw in every Link from every game in every form I find annoying. Now yes, I'm a die hard Zelda fan, but spamming a bunch of the same characters with the same move sets from the same game with differently named moves is not original.
The only way to make it original is if it had a pink mohawk and a wheelchair.
I have no opinion on Luigi since he's another one I don't really use. Sure, the Shoryuken ( _\ V > P ) is powerful and that makes Luigi a dangerous fighter, but whatever happened to figuring out ways to beat that combo?
After all, there's a deadly combo out there using Yoshi. Jump off ledge, throw an egg, wheel kick back to the ledge, grab on. Fall off, throw egg, wheel kick, grab ledge. Rinse and repeat. Surely someone's found a way to counter this one already?
For Yoshi? Not my friend. However, I use a much different combo-set than that. I can probably throw in a few combos, and even new moves at any time (I think I even have some 3 second combos, watch out!). Hm... I should get my friend code, and post it here. From what I have heard, Yoshi has a bad reputation in the Smash Bros. series, but I have no idea why. Also, if anyone fights me, that is when you will learn of my combos. I need to train more, but my thumb hurts when I play because of the warts (luckily, they are almost gone). Also, I will probably not be able to play until I get back, since I have three more days to go before Vacation.
Thank goodness Pichu and Dr. Mario are only in Melee. It is nice that they are gone now (they would have made neat costumes though, for the original characters, or even to do something like Samus transforming). Ganondorf needs new moves. He has a taunt with hsi sword, but never uses it in Brawl. I am sure that it would be pretty good in battle. I don't use Falco either, but he is a bit more different from Fox in Brawl, which is fine with me. Lucas HAS to go! Give his PKIce to Ness as an alternate, and you are good to go. Honestly, Luigi is not that bad to fight against for me (of course, none of the people who I fight even know how to use him well). Did nobody mention Game & Watch? One of my other friends uses his Spampan, which breaks through Yoshi's shield.
Masterofdel (at Yoshi's Lighthouse) is good with Ike, Sonic, and Lucario (sometimes Pit). However, against me, he sucks with Ike and Sonic, and averages with Lucario (when we used to play with the Smash Orb, I would almost always get it first, or beat it out of him). We stopped playing with that single item (we both dislike items), but that barely helped. Also, Ike is too easy for me to fight, since I have pretty much remembered the distance/span of several of his attacks. They need to randomize characters a bit more.
And this is some more of my input. Wow, major screen twiching glitch!
Have a nice day.
For Brawl, Ganondorf actually feels like a different character from Captain Falcon, because 2 of his specials are different, rather than just being slower but more powerful: The Flame Choke is my favourite of his moves, and the Warlock Punch now actually has a different animation, and thus a different hit area.
I agree Toon Link should have been made different. I would have given him a different Final Smash, probably one that involves his ship from the first DS Wind Waker sequel and a lot of cannonfire. The rest of his moveset already is somewhat different, and is actually why I prefer him over regular Link. I think perhaps they should have included Minish Cap link instead. Gust Jar for grab, Cane of Pacci sideB, Remote Bombs downB, Roc's Cape jump, etc. Or they should have given Wind Waker Link some of his unique equipment, like the Deku Leaf so he can glide out of his double-jump.
Pichu's electric attacks actually do higher damage than Pikachu's electric attacks as well, and he has some crucial differences to his moveset: His USmash is actually good for something, and his DSmash isn't. Also, I think his BAir might be different? I know at least it's my favourite one of his moves.
Luckily they didn't keep Dr. Mario in Brawl.
Lucas? But I like Lucas! He has a different moveset in various ways, but not different enough, and I REALLY LIKE PK Freeze. His downB is fun too. If an enemy like Falco tries ranged attacks, they just heal you, and if they come in for close combat, all you have to do is release B, and suddenly you have the first strike advantage.
In Brawl, they increased the differences between Falco and Fox, because Falco's blaster now has much longer range than Fox's, but he can't really uses his reflector as well as he could in Melee. And, he can't Hoverfox. (Using your downB repeatedly to fall at a much slower pace due to the gravity reset.)
Well, I like PK Freeze too, but too many of Lucas' attacks are the same as Ness (well, almost, with some slight differences). Also, it would have been neat for Toon Link's special to use the Wind Waker to make the winds able to carry characters in random directions, so they will die if too close to the edge.
I still wish that Isaac was usable, with maybe Jenna being the Assist Trophy (or the other way around, or both usable, considering how popular Golden Sun was for the GBA and everything, not to mention more games than Pit and Ice Climbers). I also wish that Yoshi would have more colours available (if there was a Black or White Yoshi skin, I would not be using green). I mean, Wario had so many, including a separate costume with all of these palette swaps.
In fact, more characters could have used many more costumes. For example, there could have been an Evil costume for Pit, or Shadow costume for Sonic, making him seem slightly better.
Have a nice day.
Quote from: salanewtYeah. I normally talk about combos like that too, but for the suggestion, I was talking about throwing combos (probably should have stated it more clearly though). Hm... If you just alter the topic title a bit, then we coud end up talking about oter characters in here, lol.
Also, this is a bit out of topic, but which characters do you tend to use?
Have a nice day.
Well, since there's actually an isaac being made, and there isn't an... anyone else being made (right now), I'd kinda prefer for this thread to be about isaac. Although if you wanna talk about how other characters would be in brawl, no one's stopping you from making a thread. Maybe once we can import entirely new models, someone will even make one of them.
To answer your question about what characters I play...
In SSB64, I play falcon, fox, ness, pika, and kirby.
In melee, I only really play fox, but I do play some falcon on the side, and pika as a low tier.
I don't play brawl anymore, but when I did I played primarily dk, sheik, and ganon. I originally played pika, but I didn't really like him in brawl.
In brawl+, I play ganon, wolf, pika, ike, marth, falco, mario, sheik, and peach. I've also been toying with picking up yoshi, charizard, and zelda.
Lists are more or less ordered. Somehow I've ended up playing that electric rat at some point in every smash game. And yes, I play a lot of characters in brawl+. I love it because the whole cast is viable, really letting you use whoever you want.
Quote from: JamietheFlameUserFor Gaia, you simply need either "On Ground" or "In Air", because what I meant was that his UpB in the air is basically just a rock elemental version of Roy's Blazer. An upward slash with rocks and Venus energy in it.
@Salanewt: A "Throw combo" implies a combo started with a throw. And it's "Retreat", not "Escape". Role already had to tell you that once if I recall correctly.
Lift as a Uthrow could be interesting. How would Halt work though? Wouldn't it get a bit cheap? You could just freeze the enemy and then keep pounding them while they're immobile.
And actually, for a ZAir, I'd be inclined to use Move rather than Force.
Off-topic: Do you know if anyone's started hacking Tetra the pirate from Wind Waker into Brawl?
Ah, I see what you mean for gaia. Hm... two very different versions of the move depending on if it's used in the air on on the ground... we can certainly do that. It's just a matter of making the aerial version not look awkward.
For halt, what I was thinking is it would act sorta like a cross between snake's dthrow and zss's stun gun. Basically, it would freeze them in place until the very end of the throwing animation, which would then drop them on the ground. Unlike snake's dthrow, they would have the option to tech, but it would take very tight timing. Keeping it balanced is mainly just a matter of making sure isaac can't cover all your options with a single attack (and with area attacks like he'll have, it's quite possible this may happen), and making sure he can't jab reset you for a pseudo-chaingrab if you fail to tech.
And for the zair... if he gets "move" as a special, it would be sorta redundant to have it for a zair, too.
And no, there is no one currently working on a tetra.
Quote from: InsularityHere you go.
http://z9.invisionfree.com/The_Temple_of_Kraden/index.php?showtopic=9212
And "somewhat" large? It is the self-proclaimed largest Golden Sun Fansite in the world.
I see! Thank you.
Quote from: JamietheFlameUserTetra would probably be like Shiek for Toon Zelda, who would basically end up being a clone character.
How about replacing Sonic? No one plays him anyway. And besides, he breaks the game. Sonic is the reason Smash Balls were banned from tourneys.
You can replace alloys. And sonic is
not the reason smash balls are banned from tourneys. Items as a whole are banned. And there are other equally or more broken FSs in the game, too, along with some pretty terribad ones...
@Everyone discussing clone characters: Uh... what? Can we please stop this pointless banter that never goes anywhere because people who dislike clones will always berate them for no reason and people who like them will also never give in to the people who dislike them? This argument will never go anywhere, so I don't get why people even insist on having it. My opinion on clone characters? It may not be the most creative thing one could have done, but it's better than not having the character at all. Especially in brawl, where the characters that were clones have been overall given a lot more differentiation. I like seeing multiple takes on the same moveset, since the characters frequently end up playing very differently (melee fox and falco or ganon and falcon are great examples of this), even if their movesets are more or less the same visually. Some people don't like that, and that's fine. They're entitled to their own opinion. I don't care if you like clones or don't like them, but please keep the discussion out of this thread. I've never seen a clone discussion go anywhere, and I've seen a lot of them, and I'd rather this thread not become a dozen pages of clone talk.
Stop talking about it? That is fine, since I made a new Brawl topic in the discussions section, when I noticed that this topic was in the Golden Sun section.
Replacing Alloys? I like it.
Have a nice day.
Edit: Oh, you are hacking Brawl? I have been thinking about it as well, actually. However, I am currently busy with Superstar Saga.
Uh... you didn't realize this topic was about actually creating a playable isaac in brawl? Really? I thought I made it fairly clear that this is something that is actually happening, and not just a "what if" situation.
As for my own experience with hacking brawl... I can't lay claim to being one of the coders that has laid the groundwork for everything we've become able to do (people like Phantom Wings and Kryal are responsible for that, among many others that have made great contributions), but thanks to the contributions of many, brawl has become one of, if not the most hacked console game in history. Brawl+, although far from solely responsible, was a huge help to foster the development of codes and tools. Where I fit in this is simply as one of the developers of brawl+, which has come so far from when it first began, and could not have gone anywhere without a huge amount of help from some of the brilliant coders responsible for pushing this game to its limits.
Also, note that while I am a part of the brawl+ backroom, this does not mean isaac will be officially included in brawl+. This is a side-project for me and the others who are working on it.
I understand. I was aware that this topic was for making a playable Isaac, except that I did not pay attention to the forum which it is in.
Also, I will support you on your side project. It would be nice to have knowledge that making Isaac playable has been done (when the time comes).
Have a nice day.
A way to avoid making area attacks broken is probably to make them slow enough that in order to use them to prevent an enemy attack you have to see the attack coming fairly far ahead. It would probably also help to make the spam penalty on them fairly large. and maybe even to make them fairly weak in the first place.
I know that having Move as a Zair if he gets it as a special would be redundant. I'm just saying that if I were the one designing Isaac, I would not give him Move as a special, but instead as a Zair.
Off-topic: I actually find Snake's DThrow to be fairly useless, because the enemy can get up instantly after you use it, meaning you can't, say, combo it with your FSmash, which looks to me to be what it was designed for, when you consider the aim of the FSmash. You can't combo it with anything else like your dash attack either.
Well, I'm not going to get too far into balance talk here, but there are plenty of things we can do with a move to prevent it from being broken due to its range. I'm really not that worried about it. I just don't wanna give him guaranteed options off of a techchase, without the player having to guess which way the foe is going to tech.
As for Move... ah, I see.
And if your foe is standing up after getting dthrow'd by snake... just grab them again. Snake can techchase you to death with that move.
I assume "Techchase" refers to grabbing a guy after he gets up and forcing him to get up again, leaving him/her with no way to escape? That would probably be most effective with a move that the enemy can't tech out of. And as for Snake's DThrow, why don't enemies just press A? That would end the combo right there, since pressing A causes you to attack your way up. Strangely enough, I've never had an enemy do that.
Okay, so time to explain tech chasing and how to make it balanced for Isaac.
Whenever something falls into a tech chase, they have four choices.
1. Roll away (I typed in Role first for something reason?)
2. Roll behind
3. Get up on the spot and attack, or
4. Wait and then do one of the above.
Okay, using Snake as an example for this tech chase, you can do something in almost every situation. If they roll away, you can do a pivot grab into another tech chase, or you can do a dash attack. If they roll behind, you can turn around and grab, or you can use an Fsmash or Ftilt. If they use a get up attack, you can spot dodge into an Ftilt or grab. If they wait, you wait.
Now, let's see Ganon's options. Out of a flame choke, if they go forward, you do another flame choke. If they go behind, turn around and Flame choke. If they do an attack, you spotdodge and flame choke. If they stand still you Dtilt or Dair.
In each of these characters, and in pretty much all characters that can force the opponent into a tech chase, they have one different move for every situation. No single move can be used in two different situations. So if Isaac is able to do an attack that hits even two of these situations, which he is more than likely to do, then that will immediately break any sort of "balance" that Isaac will have.
But what if they use a different way to escape than dodging? Those seem like worthwhile tricks to prevent people from escaping, but it might be hard for some characters...
And Isaac probably would be able to break the "balance", although some other characters were able to dodge them in the first place. Looking at the characters that can avoid some of these situations (the attacks of Ganondorf, Snake, Kirby (suction), etc.), you could try to make Isaac a formidable oponent, since his jumping is supposed to stink.
Have a nice day.
The problem is, spotting the attack coming is VERY difficult. When they attack to get up, you're likely to get hit, though it somewhat depends on the character. When Captain Falcon is downed, you're VERY likely to get hit, though for someone like Mario (who uses a double punch thingy that is slower) it's a lot easier to dodge. And also, they can A attack before you finish your throw animation, leaving you with no way to dodge. Snake's DThrow actually leaves him very vulnerable. Of course, Ganondorf doesn't have that problem.
Refresh me here, but isn't a pivot grab an odd glitchy thing where turning around and doing a grab at the same time massively increases your grab range?
I think Gaia should be one of Isaac's slower moves, so the enemy can roll away to avoid it. On the other hand, I assume the only reason DK isn't broken is because he can't force the foe into a tech chase, because if he could then he could just give them the business end of his downB no matter where they try to run. I imagine that with Gaia's range it would probably end up covering all of Battlefield, and thus being extremely broken on that stage.
@Salanewt: What different way than dodging? And that's the exact point is that not every character can force foes into a techchase. That's why many people consider some characters "broken". And Kirby doesn't techchase, he simply chaingrabs his UThrow. Or his Dthrow I think can also be used for a chaingrab.
An idea for Isaac's basic attack: He should use the combo used for "Sonic Smash" style moves in GS: A downwards diagonal attack, followed by a horizontal slash, then a rising slash for the finish.
Well, for starters, Yoshi and Squirtle have SideB, which is much faster and a better range than dodging, and Bowser (and Yoshi) have DownB as well. I was talking about dodging Kirby's suction powers (which is easy, but I know that it isn't techcase).
However, this topic is mainly for Isaac, so if we can find it again, should we discuss this elsewhere?
Have a nice day.
Somehow, I don't think you can use Squirtle or Yoshi's sideB when downed, and this is for dodging techchases, not dodging Kirby's suction, though I imagine he could chain you with that. Suck up spit out suck up spit out suck up spit out etc., but that's A) not a techchase and B) can't be continued for very long because it's effectiveness is limited by the size of the stage.
True enough. Also, Yoshi can't use Side B when stunned (due to broken shield), but as soon as he gets off of the ground, Yoshi can very quickly get in his egg. I have to play more though.
http://forum.goldensunhacking.net/index.php?topic=458.0
Found the topic that I made for pretty much any Brawl discussion.
Have a nice day.
But the point is that by the time you get there, Snake/Ganondorf is already waiting for you and can get you instantly.
Yeah, but when he isn't stunned due to a broken shield, he can escape with his Egg Roll.
Anyway, we are a bit off topic now, aren't we?
Have a nice day.
It seems you guys didn't quite understand insul's explanation...
Snake's dthrow gives the opponent a total of four options: get up on the spot, do a getup attack, roll left, and roll right. They also have the fifth option to wait and then do one of those. However, you can't do anything else out of it. I guess snake's dthrow isn't true "techchasing," because you're not chasing a tech, but rather, a getup. Moves that hit an opponent into the ground and hard enough that they have the option of teching (and if they don't tech, will end up laying on the ground, instead of just in their normal landing animation), also give an opponent 4 options in the short term: tech in place, techroll left, techroll right, or don't tech. If they don't tech, they are then given the same four options they have out of snake's dthrow, as well as the ability to wait for a certain amount of time before doing one of them.
Also, in melee, there
were characters that could cover multiple options at once (ie. falcon's and ganon's dsmashes). Of course, the real reason falcon's techchasing was so insane was his speed. Still, I'd rather not see characters having options that cover too many of their opponent's options at once during a techchase.
Quote from: JamietheFlameUserI think Gaia should be one of Isaac's slower moves, so the enemy can roll away to avoid it. On the other hand, I assume the only reason DK isn't broken is because he can't force the foe into a tech chase, because if he could then he could just give them the business end of his downB no matter where they try to run. I imagine that with Gaia's range it would probably end up covering all of Battlefield, and thus being extremely broken on that stage.
Uh... I don't think we were ever planning on giving an attack that hits on both sides much more range than DK's downB. I'm thinking a move like gaia would have somewhere between 15 and 21 frames of startup. Since 15 frames is at about the limit of human choice reaction time, someone with good reactions would be able to see the attack coming and shield or spotdodge it.
I don't really know why I brought up balance concerns here. No offense, but I think insul is the only one who would really know how to address any of them, and I'm fairly confident in our ability to not break the character to begin with... it's just a matter of figuring out how to approach some of this stuff when we get there. A lot of it will just be testing and tweaking until things work right.
Oh, and sala? Egg roll is terrible for escaping anything with. If you're in the air, you're better off using nair, bair, or even dair. If you're standing, you have yoshi's jab combo or dsmash to get people away from you.
Well... I use different techniques when playing with Yoshi. I would normally use DownB anyway, but Egg Roll is better on the ground.
No, we understood (well, at least I did), but then the conversation changed somehow.
Have a nice day.
Quote from: leafgreen386 on 15, December, 2009, 05:42:56 PM
I don't really know why I brought up balance concerns here. No offense, but I think insul is the only one who would really know how to address any of them, and I'm fairly confident in our ability to not break the character to begin with... it's just a matter of figuring out how to approach some of this stuff when we get there. A lot of it will just be testing and tweaking until things work right.
Umm, thanks, but I really don't think I'm in any position to help balance him, I'm just simply stating some facts.
And can I test it as well?
Quote from: Insularity on 16, December, 2009, 06:25:32 AM
Quote from: leafgreen386 on 15, December, 2009, 05:42:56 PM
I don't really know why I brought up balance concerns here. No offense, but I think insul is the only one who would really know how to address any of them, and I'm fairly confident in our ability to not break the character to begin with... it's just a matter of figuring out how to approach some of this stuff when we get there. A lot of it will just be testing and tweaking until things work right.
Umm, thanks, but I really don't think I'm in any position to help balance him, I'm just simply stating some facts.
And can I test it as well?
Well, you demonstrate a better understanding of smash than the others here do, anyway.
And of course you can test! Er... as soon as we have something worth testing. Currently, he just has the blue alloy's animations and hitboxes. We're going to need to rebuild a lot of his animations from scratch.
If I recall correctly blue alloy is Zelda-like? So Isaac = Zelda? Creepy!
I don't exactly know all the fancy smash terms anyway, but I do play Smash fairly often.
Yeah... isaac with zelda's animations. Dtilt looks lol.
No kidding. Why didn't you use the Red Alloy? Would've given you Captain Falcon as a base.
Pawnch!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqnyXj5tjP8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqnyXj5tjP8)
QuoteI don't exactly know all the fancy smash terms anyway, but I do play Smash fairly often.
Same here. Anyway, Isaac Falcon would be pretty funny, lol. Go, Sol Punch! Princess Isaac would be funny too.
Have a nice day.
Nah, what about Pika-Link?(Pikachu+Link=Pika-Link) I'm sorry for going off topic, so I know this is gonna be harder than Isaac in SSBB but instead of Isaac why not try to put Felix in SSBB instead.Felix is sooo bad-@#$, he's WAY better than Isaac (please don't hurt me)
If I were going to put Felix in Brawl I would make him basically be a slower but more powerful version of Isaac. His moves would be hard-hitting and somewhat reminiscent of Ike's.
Actually, for Isaac it would have to be Gaia Punch, and for Felix it would be Sol Punch.
If referring to the final weapons of both games, true. However, I was talking about some of Alchemy itself being in the Mars Star (well, at first it was the Sol Blade, then I changed my mind).
Anyway, may I please test it too if you can get Isaac to work?
Have a nice day.
Thanks :P
And there are two reasons why they shouldn't put Felix in.
1. There is no model for him, they'd have to make one themselves
2. Everyone like Isaac better.
Sala: Of course. It's going to be an open beta when we finally get something worth presenting.
Quote from: InsularityThanks :P
And there are two reasons why they shouldn't put Felix in.
1. There is no model for him, they'd have to make one themselves
2. Everyone like Isaac better.
QFT. If someone makes a model for felix that can be imported into brawl (this means rigged and everything), I'd love to know about it, but the fact of the matter is, you can't do anything without a model.
Quote from: leafgreen386 on 18, December, 2009, 05:08:05 PM
Sala: Of course. It's going to be an open beta when we finally get something worth presenting.
Quote from: InsularityThanks :P
And there are two reasons why they shouldn't put Felix in.
1. There is no model for him, they'd have to make one themselves
2. Everyone like Isaac better.
QFT. If someone makes a model for felix that can be imported into brawl (this means rigged and everything), I'd love to know about it, but the fact of the matter is, you can't do anything without a model.
Putting Felix in Brawl would be next to impossible.
And Insularity your second reason for why Felix isn't in is JUST YOUR OPINION
BUT MY OPINION IS ALWAYS RIGHT /sarcasm
I see Issacs playstyle similar to Link and olimars. Keep the enemy away with projectiles/disjointed attacks then get the kill, also does really good on stage and horrible off stage (due to weak jumps and bad recovery special). pnto the move set
Jab: 2 or 3 hit sword combo
f-tilt: diagonal slash in front of him
d-tilt: sweeps at the feet with the sword (maybe cause tripping)
u-tilt: slashes above him
F-smash: Flint Idea you mentioned
D-smash: Titan blade (Gaia blades unleash)
U-smash: Gaia surrounds Issac (similar to lucas's upsmash in animation)
Nair: I have no idea
Fair: two handed slash in front of him
Dair: slashes below him from back to front
Uair: Slashe above
Zair: Force
Neutral Special: Ragnarok (chargeable like marth/ike/roy neutral special)
Forward Special: Move (just like the assist trophy, no damage just pushes back the enemy)
Down special: Quake (similar to DK's down special)
Up special: Retreat
Grab: I like the catch idea
Note on Snakes tech chase, What makes his down throw so good is that he can limit his opponents option with his exlposive, giving him a better a chance to guess right and regrab.
Hai guis luk wut I foun.
What this is is just the Blue Alloy's model replaced with Isaac's.
I so love how that cape moves!
:!:
:Isaac:
EDIT: I could have sworn I've posted more here..
*bump*
So, leaf, how's progress going?
We scrapped the project. I think someone else is working on him now. The only character I'm working on atm is darkrai.
Really? You mean Fortwaffle? If so, he already quit on his Isaac awhile back ._.
Oh. Then I guess isaac isn't being worked on at all anymore then >_>
Whoa, is he that hard to do?
Custom characters take a lot of work. When I was working on isaac, we were still restricted to using alloys, which is a large part of why the project was put down. But we got the ability import models from other games before we got the ability to use low bone count models (like assist trophies, although plenty of models from other games have low bone counts, too), and that's when I picked up project darkrai. Maybe if no one else does, I'll eventually go back and do isaac, this time on a proper character. Don't count on it anytime soon, though.
You do know that the bone adder was released several weeks ago right? So if you ever decide to go back to working on Isaac, you could always use the bone adder so he can be used on an ACTUAL character
^late reply is late.
He already mentioned the Bone Adder and the concept of going back and doing Isaac. He's just in the middle of another project.
This is how I know people don't read my posts.
An exact quote of what I just said, but with the relevant parts bolded:
Quote from: leafgreen386 on 01, April, 2010, 11:03:20 AM
Custom characters take a lot of work. When I was working on isaac, we were still restricted to using alloys, which is a large part of why the project was put down. But we got the ability import models from other games before we got the ability to use low bone count models (like assist trophies, although plenty of models from other games have low bone counts, too), and that's when I picked up project darkrai. Maybe if no one else does, I'll eventually go back and do isaac, this time on a proper character. Don't count on it anytime soon, though.
I'm having a hard time understanding how you managed to figure out that I was considering working on isaac again without noticing any one of the three out of five sentences in this post that clearly demonstrate I know about the bone adder.
Lmao, I misread it XD
Going back to the original subject:
:happy:
:Isaac:
I think...
Physics
He should be able to jump about as high as Link
Have a medium fast fall speed...
And a running speed slightly faster than Ike's.
Attacks/Moves
He should use his sword in a similar fashion to Ike, but much quicker and slightly less powerful.
I agree, he should use catch to grab enemies and pull towards him, or use it to pull himself towards the stage.
NeutralSpecial- Isaac casts PotentCure. He recovers damage at a rate of around 30% every 3 seconds continuously. The move is terminated when attacked or if the button is released. Isaac should have to rest for about 0.8s upon release. The animation should show a steady stream of golden sparks flowing inwards. Isaac should not have to rest if the move is stopped while he is in the air.
UpSpecial- Isaac casts Planetary. He jumps 2* his usual jump hight into the air and comes crashing down onto the stage at an angle, causing a large explosion on impact. His initial jump should be executed very quickly. This attack should do around 30% damage if the enemy in directly hit. If the enemy is hit in mid-air, they should be 'gathered' by the dragonlike cloud and continually receive around 2% damage(at a rate of 3* per second). The explosion should cause less damage as it spreads out, causing only about 6% damage at the sides. The explosion should spread in all directions, but not through the stage.The explosion should last for about 0.8s. He should stay at the impact point for about 0.5s before straitening up and continuing the fight.
DownSpecial- Isaac casts Teleport. He disappears of stage in a flash of multicolourd light and re-appears a(slightly further than metaknights DimensionalCape) distance away. He is, unlike metaknight, not able to perform an attack upon reappearance but should be able to continue the brawl without delay.
SideSpecial- Isaac casts Odyssey. He emits two rings of glowing blue light, which, upon striking an opponent, paralyze them temporarily. The rings themselves should have a rather short range. Once the rings have dissipated, Isaac executes two smoothly linked strikes, one from up two down and the other visa versa, upon which two small swords appear, orbiting Isaac once (one clockwise, the other counterclockwise) before disappearing. When striking the opponent, they stay at that position until the move is fully executed, pinning the enemy down at that point. Isaac then holds his sword pointing in the direction he is facing, the sword then begins to glow and is overlayed by the odyssey sword. He then rushes forwards at high speed and rams the sword into the enemy. The sequence should take slightly less than 2 second to execute and do around 75% damage.1 second should be taken up by the rings related part of the move. Isaac should have to rest for about 1 second afterwards.
DownSmash- Isaac casts QuakeSphere. He slams his now brown glowing sword into the ground, causing an eruption of stone spikes to spring up around him .The spikes are largest at the centre of the attack and get smaller as the attack spreads out. Damage should be similarly affected. The spikes shatter afterwards, sending shrapnel flying. Charging time greatly increases power, range and spikehight. The attack should do from 10%(lowest charge) to 45%(fully charged) damage.
SideSmash-Isaac casts QuickStrike. He propels himself forwards at blinding speed(slightly faster than marth's FS) and, upon contact with an opponent, slashes using his sword, leaving a streak of blue energy behind the sword. The player should be able to break this attack of at any moment by pressing the attack button. The attack should do around 15% to 30% damage, depending on charge. Isaac should be inactive for about 0.3s after the use of this attack, but only if the strike was actually performed. The actual strike should not be performed if the attack is broken off.
UpSmash- Isaac casts GrandGaia. A fissure opens underneath Isaac, and a blinding light is cast upwards. Flaming rocks of various sizes are then hurled through this fissure upwards. The rocks do damage based on size, with the largest ones doing 2*damage and the smallest only 0.5*. The attack should do around 10% to 30% damage depending on charge. The attack should also vary greatly in range depending on charge. The attack should last for about 2 seconds.
FINAL SMASH :medal: spoilers :medal:
[spoiler]CruelRuin (why didn't anyone think of this before?)
Isaac begins to glow with blinding light, raises his sword and summons the DOOM DRAGON :!: :!:
The doomdragon then Glows and raises to an off stage area(The camera follows) He/It(the DOOM DRAGON) then executes the CruelRuin battle animation(with, of course, way higher quality)
Around 10 rays of light are then seen crashing into and going through the stage at random, causing roughly 250% damage to anyone they hit. The actual attack has no launch power though. The DoomDragon then crashes into the stage in a similar way as the fusion dragon in golden sun crashes into your characters when using OuterSpace :Sweat:, this causes around 100% damage and launches anyone it touches with the power of a regular smash attack.[/spoiler]
Isaac's grab based attacks should be
GrabUp- He throws the character up and slashes at them with his sword, causing around 10% damage.
GrabDown- He slams the enemy into the floor, then violently stabs them through the chest and twists his blade(no gore/blood of course :happy: ), causing 20% to 30% damage.
GrabSide- Isaac releases the foe then follows with a powerful kick to their chest. Should do around 10% damage but launch the opponent strongly.
GrabAttack- Isaac repeatedly smashes the hilt of his sword against the opponents head, causing around 4% damage each time and eventually giving them a broken nose :medal: (not really :sad: )
I agree with the idea of giving him the Cloak effect while dodging.
PS: Any TLDR comments are not appreciated :irate:
These are only my suggestions, and I know I have written most of it as if I would gladly force these ideas onto everyone, but that is not my intention.
:medal: :medal: :medal:
Do you have ANY concept of balance? At ALL?
First off, no. Just, no. Odyssey: Final smash power right there.
Basically, his up-special could be teleport, but note that in GS Teleport takes rather a long time. In GS it takes two full seconds to leave your teleport point, and two full seconds to arrive at the destination. Basically, if you wanted to use it, you could give him a cursor to move around during the two-second startup, where he would arrive afterwards. Or, you could reduce it to about 1 second start-up and 1 second endlag.
Planetary: Much too powerful.
Potent Cure: No. Just... NO. Self-healing in smash = broken.
Alternate idea:
sidespecial would be Ragnarok, being chargeable and doing a maximum of probably 20% damage, due to the large area of effect. The more it's charged, the farther away from Isaac it hits.
Downspecial would be Quake. Starts at 1 hit, and can be charged for up to 4 hits. Each hit does 3% damage, and the final hit knocks enemies upward.
neutralspecial would probably be Spire or Gaia. Spire would hit directly in front of Isaac, normally dropping one spire on the target for 5% damage, with an accompanying sword strike for an additional 3%. Charging it would increase the damage of the sword strike, up to a maximum of 6%, and would increase the number of spires dropped, up to a maximum of 5. Gaia would hit on either side of Isaac, increasing in range when charged. Each individual rock would hit for 0-1% damage. Total damage uncharged would average about 3%, or 1% on an edge hit. Total damage fully charged would average about 9%, or 4% on an edge hit.
upspecial: Teleport, Planet Diver or Gaia would go here. Teleport would be like I described above. Planet Diver would send Isaac up about 1.5x his jump height, then he'd come down on an angle, blasting any in his path aside for high knockback (at the same angle Isaac's falling) for about 10% damage. Incidentally, this would be his fastest special, and his only non-chargeable special.
Grab damage: Way too high. Do you have any sense of scale at all? Pummel ought to do 1-2%, or maybe as much as 2-3%. Down throw ought to have, at max, damage of 15%. Side throw damage, at max, should be maybe as much as 9%, but probably closer to 5-7%. Up throw damage is good depending on knockback and speed. The faster or higher knockback the throw, the lower the damage.
I honestly feel that the majority of Isaac's attacks would be like a heavier, slower, stronger version of Marth's, excluding his specials. Up Special could be Planetary (weakened though), and Neutral could be a djinni unleash. Not sure what down or side would be.
His grabs would be similar to Marth, except heavier, slower and stronger as said above. All in all he'd be a heavier Marth. Which is why they probably didn't include him.
Sure, his sword strikes would feel like a heavier Marth, but he would have all those spells.
That, and he'd probably be more inclined to use things other than his sword. Y'know, like punches and kicks. I mean, considering his battle stance, I'd expect that his basic attack combo would be a shoulder tackle into a kick into a sword strike. Or a shoulder tackle followed by two sword strikes. I mean, his left shoulder is already right out there, so a shoulder tackle is the fastest attack he could open with.
nope absolutely no sense of balance at all!
although I kind of agree with your point in self healing... :Sweat:
concerning the way too high power, I did include high inactivity time afterwards...
What did you think of the Cruel Ruin idea? good? bad? really bad?
I suppose so, but... 75% damage? You could kill an enemy with one strike after that.
More like one strike and combo later...
Quote from: Pkmn-Master on 04, February, 2010, 05:34:47 PM
Hai guis luk wut I foun.
What this is is just the Blue Alloy's model replaced with Isaac's.
I so love how that cape moves!
:!:
:Isaac:
EDIT: I could have sworn I've posted more here..
Hey is my old Isaac project jeje
I didn't knew this thread existed, I'm still working on SSBB Isaac if you are interested, is just that I need a PSA hacker to start working in the sword and item glitch, I just can't find a person in the SSBB hacking forums which could be interested in Isaac, so the progress is slow.
Sword and item glitch? Are you sure that's a PSA-related problem? It doesn't sound like it. I consider myself pretty good with PSA, but I'm not so good with brawlbox (I use it primarily as an animation viewer...), and have never done vertexing or messing with models, really, so I don't think I could help... if you want help with coding the specials and stuff, though, I could probably do that.
I'm sure is a PSA problem, the only way Isaac can handle a sword is by replacing one of his graphic effects with a sword model (ie. beam sword) the glitch is that his sword is static in his hand, and it won't animate when he slashes (sometimes it just goes throug his body).
And the move Psynergy attack makes Isaac bones to move up for a sec.
Did you try tying the graphic effect to a different bone?
Yeah, it sounds like it isn't attached properly. Like as if it's attached to TopN.
(also, the video is really quite awesome, it seems like the animations are based off of Pit's?)
Fair point...
Do you think reflux is a good idea for the normal special?
Quote from: Shinigami on 31, October, 2010, 09:00:33 AM
Fair point...
Do you think reflux is a good idea for the normal special?
I think that'd be more akin to Marth's/Ike's down special, and it'd probably be a down special anyhow because usually down specials are abilities with unique effects (Fox/Falco/Wolf's reflector, Pit's Shield, Pokemon Trainer/Zelda ect. switching out...)
The sword is attached to the hand bone, the same Link uses for the sword glow.
The problem is, when Isaac slashes sometimes the sword goes into the wrong direction.