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Messages - Thunder-squall

#1
Project List / Re: Should we help Joao?
01, June, 2014, 01:11:22 AM
For those of you who don't yet have RPG Maker, but who want to help jj out, check out this week's Humble Bundle (https://www.humblebundle.com/weekly).  You can get RPG Maker VX Ace + other stuff for ANY PRICE you want.   I donated $15, but you could probably get RPG Maker VX Ace for $1 if you wanted to.  Donate over $6 to add RPG Maker XP and other stuff to your cart. Donate at least $12 to also get a useful sprite editor, plus some more games and DLC.  There are a bunch of payment options too, from PayPal, to credit cards, to Google and Amazon, to BitCoin.  If you don't eventually get yourself a copy of the software, you won't be able to play what jj built, let alone help him build it.

RPG Maker VX Ace is also free on Steam to try until about mid day Sunday (~12 hrs from now) and you can also buy it at a 75% discount until then. I think this Humble Bundle deal lasts for a few more days at least, and is the cheaper deal.

Note:  You can also buy these as gifts, which you can then gift to other people.  So if someone wants to contribute financially to the project at large, you could probably buy multiple licenses for RPG Maker VX Ace for real cheap, and then give them to people who you think'll help work on the project.

The other great thing about the Humble Bundle is that you get a diverse selection of games that not only show what RPG Maker is capable of, but which you can then use as code-guides.  I plan to use the games to help me learn how to better use RPG Maker.
#2
General Golden Sun / Re: How big is Weyard?
05, May, 2014, 09:11:33 PM
So all four of you are in agreement that Weyard is probably as big as the earth, or at the very least, it doesn't strike you as being an unreasonable point of view?

Excellent, so Rolina has, within our sample size, been proven correct.  Correct?  

The reason I'm not swayed by the argument that the range of biomes on Weyard resemble the ranges we see on Earth is because they're impacted by different things.  Earth is impacted by it's orbital position around the sun and its atmosphere and ecology, whereas Weyard seems almost exclusively driven by various alchemy contraptions, which seem to be working against (and not in accordance with ) the natural laws of the inverse, should Weyard be in a location impacted by natural laws as we understand them.

Basically, if Weyard's geography is *artificially* formed and held together by alchemy, as are its biomes and ecosystems, then it makes more sense that the place is smaller, not larger, from an energy efficiency standpoint.  It would simply be a waste of energy to power something as large of the earth using artificial means (which alchemy is).

There's also the notion that if a major source of energy that governed the climate of Weyard was on its surface, (not far, far away the way the sun is to us) then an energy source strong enough to reach the extremities of a flat world (which had the same top-side surface area as the earth )  would destroy anything near it.  What was a one time episode of destruction around Mt Aleph would have been a permanent state of affairs.

I also don't see why the 'likeness' of stuff in Weyard to our real world are arguments that they exist at similar scales.  In geometry, I think the sign people would use isn't "=" but that one with the squiggly line over it.  "=~" or something?  Again, I mention chibis, an Mini Me.

But if one wants to consider what we do know about Weyard - that it is flat, and has continents and locations which resemble the earth - then what that tells me is that the creators started with the idea "what if old myths were actually true?  How would that world exist and evolve?  And what are good stories we can tell in that world?". What does it tell you?

While I await your answers, I'll posit that back when people thought the world was flat, they also thought it was much smaller than it turned out to be.  And if so Weyard was created using the assumption that the world was flat, why isn't natural to assume similar assumptions of that era concerning the size of the world?  That it was much smaller?

GM Note:  None of this.
#3
General Golden Sun / Re: History of Weyard
05, May, 2014, 08:37:00 PM
People have been talking about psychic powers for a long, long time.  IF the idea of psyenergy in Golden Sun is remotely descendent from them, then I think Carl Jung is a good source.  He talks about 'psychic chronicity,' where human thoughts have happened to coincide with real world phenomenon.  People have then gone on to theorize on mystical reasons for why this may be the case, and the common idea is that people who express these 'psychic' abilities are basically sharing mind space with the things they seem to be causing or predicting. Basically, they're talking or empathizing with the natural forces, and occasionally asking the forces to behave in ways the forces normally would not behave in.

A related question would be: What would increase the psychic abilities of people, such they would be able to influence the elements?  Eastern philosophy and religion are filled with people who have attained god like powers through practice and devotion, and attaining god like powers isn't quite so hard or virtuous as attaining wisdom, or finding a way of life that makes the world better.  In Weyard's past, we see the evidence of god like powers, but not god like wisdom.  Therefore it would stand to reason that the ancients actively sought out to increase their psychic abilities (as well as their technological abilities/alchemy), and the way to do that seems to be through utilizing the 5th Japanese Element, the void.

If the 'void' is just another word for soul-space (which is the mental-medium through which psychics use their power), then that reminds of something which reminds me of 'dark psyenergy.' Simply, all humans mind have the part of themselves that they can understand, and the part of themselves that they can only feel, and cannot always control.  When using the Tao as a psychological metaphor, this is the part of the 'Ying yang' that is associated with darkness.

I can imagine a world where the ancients further experimented with new ways to use psyenergy, and ended up bringing Darkness into the Light (where it shouldn't be), creating creatures of darkness that could not survive the light, but which found ways to persist anyway.  This fits with what Chalis purportedly said about fearing the light.  If I were telling the story, I would feature the umbral clan either as victims, or as scientists who wanted to explore the limits of existence.  I would not have them be a power-equivalent to the whatever the forces of sol were. 

Then again... I guess I've got too many possibilities on my mind right now, such that I cannot focus on a single one.  That's not a bad thing.
#4
General Golden Sun / Re: How big is Weyard?
04, May, 2014, 06:13:16 PM
Yeah, totally no opportunity to debate.  It's not like you can, I dunno, write words or stuff.


Quote from: Rolina on 04, May, 2014, 04:32:56 PM

[That the surfaces of Weyard and the Earth are roughly the same size are shown by] the very clear analogues between North America and Hesperia, between Morgall and Mongolia, between Tolbi and Rome - observations that have been established for over a decade now - to the greater part of the fandom, whom have been with the games since GS1, this is like calling the Earth a flat world.  That by saying it can't possibly be that big, you're denying what's right in front of you.


That there are analogies does not indicate that the places are the same size.

Consider "It's a Small World After All."  

Or chibis.  

Or Mini-Me.

I don't think there's more to your argument than that, is there?

You know what?  To make things easier, just start a topic in the Temple of Kraden saying "Hey, doesn't everyone agree that Weyard just as big as the earth?"  Then link me to the thread so I can see what all ye ole veterans say.  That's easy enough, right?

Or if you think that people who played G1 (and who "use the franchise as a whole") see something I wouldn't from just looking at the maps, perhaps find a path of area on the map, estimate how long it took players to cross it, then consider walking speed to get an estimate of distance.  Then use that to estimate the size of the map.  If you do that, then you'll have proof that even a hard head like me couldn't argue against.

---

Actually, are there any indications of the number of days over which the plot of Dark Dawn might transpire?  Or GS1 or GS2 if that's your flavor.
#5
Project List / Re: Should we help Joao?
04, May, 2014, 05:56:01 PM
Quote from: KyleRunner on 04, May, 2014, 05:29:38 PM
Quote from: Rolina on 04, May, 2014, 01:33:46 PM
@Kyle:  Are the only coast options you have right-angle coast options?  If you need, we can hunt down other angles for you to use in those tiles.


Rolina, I would like some help.

But... getting diagonal autotiles to hork with VX ace...  I could only make it "square". I'm still trying, though.

If you could post a test screen shot with a diamond shaped lake, I think that'll sort things out.
#6
The important part was that psychic control of elemental forces is made possible by the ether, previously associated with umbra.
#7
Quote from: Rolina on 02, May, 2014, 07:10:56 PM
You also have to keep in mind that you have not explained this working theory to me, so anything I say that may seem disingenuous to you comes from a state of ignorance from me.  I cannot even know if I'm betraying something if I'm not even aware of its existence.  Before you start referencing a theory, you need to either post a link to said theory or explain it in full, otherwise I have no context in your meaning.

Here, we speak of light and darkness, and nowhere except there was evil energy referenced.  My assumption that you referred to darkness as evil energy came from that because that's what we were talking about.  It's why I always reference Flip Side theory and link it if able when I start discussing stuff about that, so that you know where the context is coming from.  Otherwise, any references I make to the "other side" simply seem confusing and out of place, or worse, as wholly disruptive to my own points.

Before we go any further, can I hear this idea in full so that I know what it is your referencing, so as to give a more educated analysis?

I think that's pretty weak.  I discussed my working theory right before the part where I said "At least that's my working theory."

And if you're claiming ignorance, then you're saying you started attacking and arguing before you knew what was even talked about? As if on auto-pilot?  Yes, of course you did.

When people engage in conversation, they should come out knowing more. Not less.  This is the difference between discussion and debate.

But "when in Rome," right?  I'll get you your debate.
#8
Golden Sun: Dark Dawn / Re: Monsters and Darkness
04, May, 2014, 04:51:58 PM
Quote from: Rolina on 04, May, 2014, 04:21:06 PM
Also, no.  We actually know how monsters exist, and it's nothing to do with Light/Dark - this was explained in GS1.  They're not stragglers, but animals mutated by psynergetic energies.  They weren't overly common in certain areas until the Sol Sanctum erupted at the beginning of GS1's prologue.

Are these the same animals that are stronger at night?

Quote from: Thunder-squall on 04, May, 2014, 04:17:25 PM

To say it more clearly: Maybe many of the monsters we do see are the "few stragglers" left behind from a previous eclipsed era, where the light/dark situation was reversed.


Let's make this a reference to stuff like skeleton soldiers.
#9
Which means that psyenergy is a natural phenomenon that occurs independently of adepts.

Psychic phenomenon, in contrast, is often said to be a mysterious feature or side effect of the 5th element of ether/void/emptiness.  My favorite theory is that the natural forces of the universe have personalities (which is why they're named or referred to based on mythological characters), and that psyenergy adepts have different spiritual relationships with these deities.  Or at the very least, human minds would interpret personalities with the deities as they interacted with them.
#10
General Golden Sun / How big is Weyard?
04, May, 2014, 04:37:04 PM
"Not as big as the earth." That's how big it is.

(1)  Test:  Estimate the size of any geographical structure on the world map.  Use that to create a "scale," and use that scale to estimate the size of Weyard.  The estimate people get may vary wildly, but it won't approach the surface area of earth.

(2) The continents of Weyard do resemble those on earth, as do the biomes, and as do some of the cultures. Does that mean that Weyard is as big as the earth?

The short answer is no, but we'll discuss it if we need to.
#11
Golden Sun: Dark Dawn / Re: Monsters and Darkness
04, May, 2014, 04:17:25 PM
Quote

The word "fell" came up [when Kraden described Dark Energy], which in context meant "likely to cause or capable of causing death," -- but the description of how light might affect [Dark] creatures makes it obvious that from [the perspective of dark creatures], light is "fell energy."


This should help.


Quote from: Rolina on 04, May, 2014, 03:35:42 PM
Do we have evidence [that the monsters that were empowered by the Grave Eclipse reverted back to their original form]?  Or were they just killed off, since they can't be replenished in the same way?

I do agree that it's a temporary thing, but I don't think it'd be immediate.  There'd be a few stragglers afterwards.

If the creatures could exist before the Grave Eclipse, I do not see why they would not be able to exist after the Eclipse ended.  Volechek was an unusual case that was artificially created, presumably with the use of Dark Psyenergy.

But this has caused me to rethink the idea that creatures were "spawned" out of nothingness.  Perhaps those creatures (the more abstract monsters of darkness) were always around.  And perhaps if certain types of monsters couldn't reach for the caves and shadows, they would be wiped out.  Maybe the only reason they survived is because they avoided the light, and fed off of creatures of the light for sustenance (light consumes dark, as dark consumes light).

To say it more clearly: Maybe many of the monsters we do see are the "few stragglers" left behind from a previous eclipsed era, where the light/dark situation was reversed.
#12
Quote from: Rolina on 04, May, 2014, 03:35:42 PM
Do we have evidence of this?  Or were they just killed off, since they can't be replenished in the same way?

I do agree that it's a temporary thing, but I don't think it'd be immediate.  There'd be a few stragglers afterwards.

This is a good conversation for 'monsters and darkness'

But the simple answer is that if the creatures could exist before the Grave Eclipse, I do not see why they would not be able to exist after the Eclipse ended.
#13
Quote from: Luna_blade on 04, May, 2014, 03:34:40 PM

Light can also be interpreted as Alchemy then I guess?

In another thread, we recently started trying to figure out the difference between Alchemy and Psyenergy.

> When a person uses psyenergy, they're called psyenergy adepts.  When crystals or rocks or stones contain psyenergy, they're called psy-whatevers.

> The only time the word alchemy is used is when there're machines or constructs involved.  One might think of it as mechanized psyenergy use.

I think DarkDawn introduced the first structures which seemed to manipulate Dark Psyenergy, and this seemed to be Luna Tower.  If that's true, than alchemy is not aligned with any specific type of psyenergy, but refers to the mechanized and automated way of using psyenergy,
#14
Golden Sun: Dark Dawn / Re: Monsters and Darkness
04, May, 2014, 03:48:12 PM
Quote from: Rolina on 04, May, 2014, 01:16:25 PM

Also, they did not say Light is Fell Energy -


No one said they did.
#15
Quote from: Rolina on 04, May, 2014, 03:24:20 PM
Most dark monsters were empowered versions of monsters we previously fought.  Thus, the claim of evolution.

I understand.  But empowerment is not evolution.  Those monsters reverted back after the Eclipse.
#16
General Golden Sun / Re: History of Weyard
04, May, 2014, 03:32:25 PM
Quote from: KyleRunner on 30, April, 2014, 10:00:42 AM

Well... we do not have much lore about it, so someone has to -start- to create a logical explanation...

Let's put my theory to test:
1) Dying but not dead Weyard: as I said in the other post, I think that all that exists came from the interactions between light and darkness, which are related to Alchemy. So, everything that is created, is created. Period. That would explain why matter still exists. But sealing the Alchemy means that nothing gets renewed.
My questions here are: how releasing Alchemy could stop the world from falling into the falls? Releasing Alchemy will result in merging the continents again? If so, Alchemy is responsible for this bond.

"Constant creation" is perhaps the only way to explain how water keeps flowing off of Weyard, and how its land area can actually grow or resist erosion from the water.  And thus we need a theory in which constant-creation can be explained by Alchemy.

I use an alchemy well to explain the water.

Vegetation and root systems could explain the growing land mass and its stability.


Quote from: KyleRunner on 30, April, 2014, 10:00:42 AM
2) Charging/recharging: well... everything is created by Alchemy, including Psynergy. But there is a difference between the elemental psynergies and the "alchemy energies (technically they are not PSYnergies, unless used by someone)" (responsible for creation). How could I explain this... Light and darkness interactions created earth, water, wind and fire. These are the "blocks" for creating matter. So, for example, wood is created by all these elements (15% fire, 40% earth...). Nothing is created by a single element, except, maybe, the purified essence inside the elemental stars.
The psynergy used by Adepts don't come directly from Alchemy (inderectly, yes, just like everything that it's not void), but from the psynergy stones that are a particular matter (but just created by the same means as wood) capable of imbuing people with the power of psynergy. They are already created. That's why - in my humble theory - Adepts still can use Psynergy despite Alchemy already being sealed.

I think psy energy is when people communicate spiritually or mentally with the elements, share a mind space, and then take an action (while sharing a mind with the elements)

Alchemy is the automated and mechanized version of this.  This is why alchemy engines can run non stop, and why they pose so much risk for causing disharmony among the elements.

The natural elements, anyway.  My hypothesis is that all of Weyard is unnatural, and exists only through the use and abuse of alchemy.
#17
The chart's nice, but I don't see any basis for it within the games themselves.  The only time a developer would use it was if they had an 'adept-crafting-system' where they needed to maintain balance, no matter what players did. But the Golden Sun series is narrative driven with a smaller cast, and thus they can pretty much creating a smaller subset of any type of character they want, and then just make sure the subset is balanced.  Because that's what they're doing, it doesn't make sense for them to complicate matters.

My interpretation has been adjusted to be

Light: All "normal" psyenergies, such as mars, jupiter, mercury, and venus
Dark: a new mysterious and strange psyenergy which not many people know about.

Luna and Sol would be considered in the Light.

  • Sol Aligned: Mars and Venus
  • Luna Aligned: Jupiter and Mercury

Taken in this way, Dark PsyEnergy could be considered the 5th element, which is compatible with void, if one considers the Japanese Philosophy (and we should, given that this was a Japanese game).  Hinduism also considers this 5th element as well (emptiness; empty space; void), but also sometimes a 6th:  Consciousness.  This obviously seems compatible with interpretations of 'light.'  However according to the wiki, "some modern Buddhist interpretations are currently describing the 'Emptiness element' as space and consciousness. Certainly one does not need to derive a sixth element when the true fifth element of 'Emptiness' is understood which contains both space and consciousness and is beyond space and consciousness in its truer, more pure selfless 'Empty' nature."  Given that the Tuaparang (or Umbral Clan) introduced in Dark Dawn share a name with the Buddhist Tsaparang, we should take this interpretation seriously, and suspect that there is a way to find light through darkness (i.e. meditation, rather than dark psyenergy).

So that's all pretty nice, and works together in the obvious and expected way, without needless complication.  Occam's razor compels us.

But if the 5 elements (including emptiness) are inclined to coexist (even if in opposition), what makes Dark PsyEnergy strange and unusual, when Luna itself is never called strange an unusual?

Disharmony, is my only answer.  Dark PsyEnergy seems to break the natural cycle of life and death, leaving only the constantly undead.  "Breaking of the rules" can be useful, but it's still unusual, and can have a negative effect on creatures which exist and rely on rules to begin with.

Looking more into the existence of dark creatures, we know that "evil energy" is repelled by alchemy, and therefore we can presume that dark creatures and their communities were hit hard when Alchemy was released in The Lost Age.  One could presume that their civilizations, should they exist, are now on the brink of collapse.
#18
Quote from: Majora on 04, May, 2014, 02:10:07 PM
Are you implying drug use is a necessary requirement for one who wishes to become a 'great artist'


I am bluntly saying that it's an obvious conclusion to draw, and people do regularly draw it.

I think there are alternatives, as discussed above.
#19
Golden Sun: Dark Dawn / Re: Monsters and Darkness
04, May, 2014, 01:56:32 PM
 - If you click on the image and not the link, it will expand rather than download.
- Kraden describes darkness as "fell" energy.
- I was making the point that "fell" is literally relative.  What weakens people strengthens dark creatures, but what weakens dark creatures strengthens people.
#20
We don't see anything "evolve" during the Grave Eclipse.  Some things were *spawned* by it, others grew stronger, but we don't see any permanent evolution occur because of the eclipse.

Volechek's various transformations were a result of intentional dark energy use, and not simply the presence of darkness.