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Thanks for the replies all.

I think Isaac should be a balanced sort of fighter, with a bit of an orientation towards speed. He should use sword attacks mostly for his basic moves, and only Psynergy for his special moves. for his grab, he casts Catch.

Special Moves:

B: Spire: Isaac does a diagonal strike as a spire falls on the same location. Can be charged to increase number of spires that fall, thus increasing both range, as spires fall over a broader area, and power, as the enemy gets hit with more spires. No, unlike Pikachu's Thunder, you can't hit enemies at the top of the stage with this move.

Up+B: Gaia: Isaac casts Gaia, with it centered on himself, sending stones flying upwards. Charging it increase the range greatly, and the power slightly. In the air, he does a Gaia-powered slash similar to Roy's Blazer from Melee that sends him upward.

Down+B: Quake: Isaac thrusts his sword into the ground, creating a Quake centered on himself. Works like Donkey Kong's Down+B

And...

Side+B: Ragnarok: Isaac rushes forward, similarly to Ike's Quick-draw, and releases Ragnarok right in front of him when he reaches an enemy. If he stops dashing before reaching an enemy, he doesn't release Ragnarok. Charging it increases the range of his dash and the power of Ragnarok.

Final Smash: Odyssey! Isaac releases two rings of blue energy. If they hit a target that is mostly horizontal from him, they pin the target in front of him and the target is punctured by two large swords. Then, the energy rings come back to him and Isaac rushes forward and impales the foe on the giant sword, just like in the move in GS. When you hit the target, Golden Sun battle text appears below, saying:
Isaac casts Odyssey!
[enemy] takes [randomly generated number between 500 and 1300] damage!!!
(If target is KO'd) You felled [enemy]!

Gaia as an upB is interesting. It might work, although I'm not sure how to tell the game "spawn this on the stage if the stage is below you, but spawn it from the death zone if it is not." From what we've seen so far, there's a requirement for "on ground" or "in air," but not "there is ground below you."

I might as well say this now.

for Down B, it would make more sense to use a quake, earthquake or quake sphere, it's power and range increasing the longer it has been since it's last use, similar to Wario's Down B, or ROB's neutral B. A good timing seems to be 40s for Earthquake, and 70s for quake sphere.

I like the idea of Ragnorok as a Side B, just not in the way that Jamie proposed.

Move, quite obviously has to be in it, either as an Up B recovery, or Neutral B projectile. The Up B would kind of lift himself up, and the Neutral B would be kind of like Ivysaur's Side B, where he shoots an auto-targeting Razor Leaf, or a more powerful, slightly slower version of Pit's arrow.

Fsmash should probably be Flint, slightly stronger and slower than Link's first strike of Fsmash, with some sort of Texture of stone covering it. Just for the aesthetic appeal.

Dsmash should be a Gaia or Tremor, that works quite similarly to Lucario's. Usmash single hit, like Ike's, but faster and less powerful.

Catch makes a lot of sense to be a grab, and it should become Force or similar when used as Zair.

His range should be slightly longer that Marth's, his speed slightly slower.

Final Smash:

MEGIDDO!

If an enemy is near him, Isaac does three or four slashes with his sword like Link's. After this, or if there was no enemy near him when he began, Isaac jumps up and we see space, kind of like the background of the Ice Climber's stage... whose name escapes me, or End of Day. A Meteor comes into view, Isaac jumps onto it and slams it with his sword. The meteor slams straight into the stage where Isaac was, going straight through it.

That, or Iris, where after the four slashes, Isaac faces the player, adopting a pose like Pit's, where Pit's picture of Palutena is replaced by Iris' sprite.

And I like the idea where his moves are taken soley from utility psynergy, or from the Squire Class chain.

Oh, and do you want me to ask this at the Temple?

The quake idea you listed is really interesting. We're gonna need to do some research into how wario's waft or rob's laser works, because it's currently unknown. It has to be stored somewhere in the moveset file, but the tools we have available right now don't seem to reveal anything...

I agree that move really should be one of his specials. I was actually thinking of something that used windboxes, which you could control which direction the windboxes were blowing in. The move would have a maximum duration of something like 2 seconds, probably with a range of motion of 8 different directions, and could be ended early by releasing the B button. I was originally thinking it could be his downB, although if we adopt your quake idea, it'd probably be better suited for sideB, leaving fsmash as ragnarok. I don't mention neutral B because I think we're planning on keeping that as flint/venus (as in both, alternating).

I was thinking the same thing for his dsmash (gaia), although I wanted to do something a bit more fantastic for his usmash... I just have no idea what. If nothing better comes up, we'll probably go with something like that, though.

Good to see everyone more or less agrees about making catch his grab, but that's a really good idea about making it use force as a zair. I actually hadn't even thought about giving him a zair.

The final smash... well, we were planning on texture hacking his sword to look like the gaia blade, since it seemed the most appropriate thing to do. Would make megiddo kinda awkward =p

And that would be great if you asked this elsewhere. I've never heard of the temple before, actually. I assume it's a somewhat large GS forum, though?

Hm... Well, if you do keep the Smash Orbs (I only like Yoshi's, really). I like the idea for UpB to be Teleport, but you should refer to it as "Escape". For his Final Smash, perhaps it could be like a random Venus summon, but it gives a slight signal before hand (only pure Venus summons, which would be Ramses, Cyleb, and Judgement (and would work in a similar way to Assist Trophies, so Ramses is the most likely to appear, followed by Cyleb, then Judgement with a rare chance of happening)). Venus is a good ability to use, along with Flint (if you can get them in). Quake, Spire, and Ragnarok should be used as a throwing combo (I think some characters have them, if not all). Grab will grab the oponent and also bring them to you (actually, Carry would be cool for this too), and then Isaac will grab the enemy when they are close enough. After doing a few hits, Isaac can throw them and maybe even throw a combo in there. Ragnarok would be a combo for side-throw, Spire will be an up-throw, and Quake would be if slamming them against the ground.

And this is my input for Isaac. The other ideas (for buttons/attacks) that I have not spoken about are not there because I think that everyone's ideas for those would be well suited.

Have a nice day.

If by "escape" you mean "retreat," I agree. It's all semantics, really, but retreat makes a lot more sense canonically for isaac.

We were thinking about making his FS judgment. Making it have a random chance for various summons... sounds like a lot of extra work lol

I'm a bit confused what you meant when you were talking about the throws... what I got out of that is that he should use psynergy in the throws, which is something I agree with. I think it'd be a good place for some of the field psys that wouldn't fit anywhere else, though, like lift (uthrow), carry (bthrow?), or halt (dthrow?). Actually, force would work well here, too (fthrow).

@Everyone: Thanks for contributing. You can be assured that I'm passing along all of these ideas to the others. If you have any other ideas, please feel free to share.

There is a disturbing lack of isaac clone in this thread, whatever one would call that.

Hi and welcome to the club.

I'm assuming most of you are familiar with the smash bros series. Brawl hacking has come far enough along that we're actually able to add almost entirely new movesets to characters, and through texture and model hacking, play as almost anyone imaginable. However, that requires a group to actually put forth the effort to make that happen. I'm currently working with a group for creating a playable isaac in brawl. While we're using isaac's assist trophy model, most of the animations have to be made from scratch. This makes the sky the limit for what we can make him do, even if the process may be somewhat tedious. As we're still only starting, we need to form a direction for the character. This is where you guys come in. If you've got ideas on how you think isaac should play in brawl, then come out and say it! Should he stick with mostly sword based attacks? Or use mostly psynergy? Should he use psynergies from multiple elements, or just earth? If he uses psynergy from multiple elements, should they be restrained to just field psys? How fast should he move? How high should he jump? Should he be a combo oriented character? Or a zoning character? How good or bad should his recovery be? The questions could go on forever.

The following are my current ideas. Note they're in the mindset of making an isaac for brawl+, not the original brawl, although most of the same concepts will carry over. For those not familiar, brawl+ is essentially a faster paced brawl with a greater focus on combos and pressure (largely due to the higher hitstun and shieldstun, as well as the reduced landing lag on aerials), and a more balanced cast. A version of isaac meant to be played in a brawl without those changed mechanics will also be made. I'd appreciate it if you formulated your own ideas before reading this part, though, since I'd like to hear as many different takes on the character as possible. Also note that nothing here is set in stone.

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Physics:
Short Hop - very short (Brawl+ or Melee Falco SH)
Full Jump - just barely reaches first level Battlefield platforms
Double Jump - weaker than FJ
Momentum - fairly low, but high horizontal jump velocity
Running Speed: somewhere between Marth and Yoshi
Weight: 103 (similar to Link, who is at 104)
Floatiness: similar to Brawl Falco

Playstyle:
Consists of mostly psynergy, though some attacks do use the sword. Predominately uses psynergy from the Squire (and above), Ninja, and Samurai classes, although also uses some psys from the Dragoon class, as well as general field psys.
Plays a game heavily reliant on his range and speed. Being very mobile near the ground, this makes most of his combos horizontal in nature, and also relatively short compared to some of the more combo heavy characters.

Moveset:
Probably going to make the neutral special alternate between Flint and Venus. Flint would be his strongest attack, but also have incredible startup and endlag. Venus would only be usable on the ground.
The UpB will likely be Teleport, capable of moving Isaac a fair distance in one of 16 directions. Although if anyone has a better idea more suiting for him, I'd love to hear it.
Ragnarok will either be Forward B or FSmash.
One attack from each of the Gaia, Quake, and Spire lines will also make it somewhere into the set (probably DownB, DSmash, or DTilt for the first two, though Spire seems more appropriate as an "up" attack of some sort).
Grab will probably be the Catch psynergy, thus making it a ranged grab.
I'm thinking of using Cutting Edge for a Dash Attack and Quick Strike as a Jab (except, you know, actually make it quick).
When invincible during dodges, will also be invisible with an outline, similar to the Avoid/Cloak psynergies.

Excellent! I love hearing about when stuff like this works out.

If you have a spell like that, NOBODY will use it.  I'm a huge Dragon Quest Monsters player, and from the talks I've had with all the other people who are into it, self-sacrificial skills SUCK compared to the so-called weaker moves.  The death just isn't worth it.  Especially a death to revive another dead guy.  Kinda defeats the purpose.  By the way, a power of 2000 pretty much covers everything - 1999 is the HP cap, after all.

Edit:  Oops, misread the topic... thought this was the GSDG psynergy thread.

I'm sure there's room for it.  Besides, if all goes well, we'll have an effect editor.  After all, we'll NEED it for new status ailments (inflicts Siphon, may inflict Plague, may inflict Summon Seal, may inflict all ailments, etc...)

After thinking about this a bit more... Well, no. If there's only one effect ID per move, then there isn't room for it, at least not in an easy way. You'd have to completely change the way the game reads the code if you wanted to have multiple effect IDs on a single move, which if not done carefully will result in breaking a ton of pointers, not to mention being overly difficult. What is more likely, is the ability to add entirely new effect IDs which act as a combination of effects. Currently, the game only has 92 (0-5B) effect IDs, meaning it should be possible to have up to 256 (0-FF) IDs, given the amount of space reserved for the effect ID in the attack data. In all probability, though, the game does not have additional room for new effect IDs in the location they're currently stored. Taking a mostly uneducated guess, I'd say that the game handles it in a method similar to the following (and I'm probably going to completely butcher the lingo here, so please don't kill me):

1) Attack ID is called, runs down list of memory addresses until match is found, points to memory address
2) One part of the attack data (type ID, target ID, range ID, power ID, effect ID, and so on) is compared to a list of memory addresses until the matching ID is found, points to new memory address to handle that portion of the data
3) Data is written to the location that handles attack calculations, points back to attack data and repeats from either step 1 or step 2 with each of the remaining IDs
4) After all data has been retrieved, attack proceeds as normal

I may be completely wrong, so anyone who actually does know (especially Atrius), please correct me.

Anyway, assuming the data is called in a method similar to what I stated, then what you would have to do is create a pointer at the bottom of the list of effect IDs that tells the game what memory address to look at, which points to a later location in the file with enough free space for the extra effect IDs we'd be adding. The list would be continued here, with the new IDs pointing to memory addresses even further in the file, which include all the actual directions for executing those effects. And of course you'd have to figure out how to point back to the proper location in the file after all is said and done. In theory, it should be fairly simple to enable new effects. Actually creating those effects, on the other hand... would be colossally more difficult, as it would require actually figuring out how the game structures the effect commands.

As for the usefulness of such an effect as what I was talking about... I'll take that discussion to the psynergy topic.

I have a question... Why have psynergies that kill yourself and aid the other team? Seems like a good idea though, but it sounds a bit strange by itself.

Anyway, I hope that we will easily be able to create our own status ailments in the future. I would not mind creating a working Charm effect.

Have a nice day.

Well, besides that one I posted (sacrifice) none of them would be explicitly killing you, and sacrifice only kills the user because the rest of the effect is so potent that nothing else could justify it. Most of the ideas I had just inflict negative effects or damage, which may end up killing you if you use it at the wrong time, but that's why you need to use it intelligently. In exchange for taking the risk, you get a much greater beneficial effect. It's not like you're healing your enemies and debuffing yourself or anything lol

Nah, that wouldn't work. Reflect has an effect already in there listed as (Reflect), and it doesn't look like anything else would be causing it to do that. I also thought of making it do damage aimed at the caster, but since it's a party spell, that would be causing damage to all party members instead of healing them, which defeats the purpose. At the moment, it appears to only be possible to do damage or cure while using one additional effect. If it was possible to use two or more additional effects on an attack, it would open the doors for all kinds of new effects, like... a move that restores PP to all party members but casts psynergy seal on them.

Currently, the most mixing of effects you can do is dealing damage to your party while buffing them/clearing status, or healing your party while debuffing them/dealing status. That means it's possible to have a spell that affects the whole party that say... boosts attack by 25% (instead of the normal 12.5% you get for party spells) but causes them damage at the same time to balance it. It's also possible to have a move that restores a lot of HP but causes a stat debuff or status effect. But you can only have one non-HP effect at a time, which really limits what you can do.

Hm... Is there only enough room in the data for one additional effect on abilities? I wanted to make a psynergy something like this:

Name: Sacrifice
PP: 100
Range: All (party)
Heals 9999 HP and fully revives target(s). Afterward, user dies.

But it seems it's only possible to have either the revive effect or the user dies effect, not both, at least with the current editor.

edit: Back on the topic of making a djinn/summon seal... I forgot what the menus looked like during psynergy seal. I thought that you weren't allowed to click that icon at all, and that making it work for other attack types would be as simple as copying the coding for that status and then changing the value that specifies psynergy. Instead, it just makes the psynergy selections purple and gives you the blocked message when it comes to your turn if you actually select it. That might be harder to make work for other types of attacks than I thought.

Excellent. Thank you for the speedy reply and fix.

I'm not familiar with the game's code at all, but I'd assume that psynergy seal is treated as any other status effect. With the ability to add/edit status effects in their entirety, I'm sure it would be possible to replicate the effect with any command.

In this thread, there is supposedly a link to download v0.2 of the editor. Instead, when I try to go to that page, I get a Not Found message as such:

Not Found
The requested URL /atrius/GS_Editor/GoldenSunTLA_Editor.zip was not found on this server.

Additionally, a 404 Not Found error was encountered while trying to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request.
Apache/1.3.33 Server at www.mitxela.com Port 80