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Then it's a good thing I came along to set you guys straight.  That idea is plain dumb.

Unless you have any evidence or reasoning for it.  Otherwise it's plain rejected.

From the dialogue in the image attached, there seem to be a few different classes of monsters which players fight:

> Creatures which are spawned by the darkness.
> Creatures which are mutated (and made stronger) by darkness.
> Creatures that have no relation to darkness.

The word "fell" came up, which in context meant "likely to cause or capable of causing death," but the description of how light might affect these creatures makes it obvious that from their perspective, light is "fell energy."

Volecheck (Sveta's brother) is an interesting case, if you consider when, why, and how he was turned into his monstrous form.  He was turned into a creature of darkness that could only exist due to the "evil energy" of the Grave Eclipse, but I can't remember if this was done before he died, after he died, of when he was on the cusp of death.  Either way, he's one example of someone transitioning between being a creature 'of light' and a creature 'of dark.'

List of stuff I want to confirm / know.  Stuff may be added over time.  If you can figure this out for me I'll appreciate it, otherwise I'll get to it when I get to it.

(1)

If you use spirit sense on Chalice when controlling Sveta at the end of the game, she thinks: "If we could get our hands on that ('that' being the umbra gear), we won't have to be afraid of the light anymore." ...or something to that effect.

... were written by all sorts of people who did all sorts of things.  I now find it odd telling kids 'not to do drugs,' when so many of the great artists used them.  I mean, following the evidence, what advice would you give a kid who aspires to be a writer?

I'm waiting for the day when 'playing lots of games' or 'watching lots of TV' is the new mind altering substance for creative sorts.  I'll confess that I don't use substances (much), for example, and attribute my creativity to the breadth of stuff I've experienced, rather than to substance use.

But I think that no matter what artists use to boost their experiences, I think they'll always have a negative stigma, because they'll always be pushing the boundaries of the ordinary.  Once they stop pushing the boundaries, artists will simply move to something else.

So this raises the question of how much of school education should be "on the edge," and how much of it should be "safe."  Unlike some other nations, the US education system isn't so strong at having kids memorize instructions, but excels at having kids think for themselves.  Assuming that, I guess kids should learn the safer stuff when they're pre teens, and then be exposed to the more experimental stuff when they're teens.

I guess I'm just talking about the liberal arts subject, rather than the 'STEM' stuff.

[her claim in red]

Okay, so if Weyard is flat, then what size is the planet below?  Weyard holds several continents within it, with the approximate surface area of the Planet Earth.  If Weyard sits atop a fully round planet with proper Newtonian physics, then I have two questions...

First, why is Weyard not being drawn to this supermassive planet?  How is it not crushed by such enormous gravitational forces?
Second, how big is Weyard in relation to the planet?  Weyard has a full planetary ecosystem.  Two poles and a tropical zone.  Using newtonian physics, Weyard would have to be positioned in juuuust the right way that such a thing could even be possible - but if it's just a floating mass on a much larger supermassive planet, then why doesn't it have a unified/homogenized ecosystem?  Why is it full planetary scale, when your claim is literally that it's not the size of a planet?

Magic and zol.  Weyard is a world of both magic and science, just as psyenergy adepts use both science and magic. I suspect the planet is a gas giant, and Weyard could be very much like a moon to it, or a satellite. The more popular opinion is that it's an elevated plateau, but I'm personally exploring the likelihood of it being a floating ark, due to the 'rule of cool' potential, and also just the evidence as I see it.

I do not think that even Rolina believed her claim in red until she was trying to come up with objections, but the gas giant hypothesis happens to survive the claim that Weyard has approximately the same surface as the Earth (but really, is it a common opinion that Weyard is that big?).  Compare the size of earth to the other, larger planets.

I believe that life on Weyard is only made possible through alchemy and inherent psyenergy, which might also be responsible for its elevated position.  I had forgotten why I took this for granted, and so I did some digging, and found the source.

• KRADEN: Unless the lighthouse beacons are all lit, Weyard will eventually be destroyed.
  
• ISAAC: Destroyed? But...how? Why?
• PIERS: King Hydros, ruler of Lemuria, says that our world is steadily shrinking.
• SHEBA: Elemental energy drives the growth of civilization. Without it, we and our world will wither.

There's more here to discuss, but for the time being this information is sufficient to support the idea that Weyard defies the laws of physics using Magic, and if it stops defying the laws of physics, it will cease to be.  I believe this supports my thesis that Weyard is a satellite to a planet, and I believe this is an argument against the "Weyard is just an elevated plateau" argument.

Speculation using additional information from Dark Dawn

Dark Dawn has also given more reasons for believing that both the manipulation of psyenergy and science are vital to the persistence of Weyard.  These are primarily seen through the puzzles to the Apollo Sanctum, as well as the final mechanisms found there.  Dark Dawn provides evidence and clues that did not exist in the previous games, and which allows us to come up with better and more complete theories than those which existed in the past.

(so all y'all gba purists can suck it.)

I believe that Weyard's infinite flow of water is due to an alchemy engine on a scale similar to the one seen in Dark Dawn's Tiamat Summon (image attached).  I believe the summons in Dark Dawn resemble characters that exist or once existed, and what I find striking about them is the fusion of magic and tech, as with Thor, and as with Judgement.

A lot of mythology speaks about the cusp of light and dark (typically through metaphors of sex between father sky and mother earth), and that brief union is where the human world (typically flat) is created.  I think it is neatest and most narratively powerful origin story that could apply to Weyard, and a spiritual variant of Occam's razor would compel me to assume that that's true.  If I consider that origin story, and the applicability of science in that world, then I get the following picture:  The universes contain balls of light and dark energy, and when they interact, magic happens.  And magic could happen differently each time, which means that Earth and Weyard could exist in the same universe, while following different magical rules. This being true would be a vital boon to the series, and have the same benefits that Star Wars gets from being in the same world as ours, but at a different time and a different place.

Precise Origins of Weyard

Weyard persists artificially, by harnessing magic using science, or "alchemy," as some might call it.  This opens up the possibility that Weyard was originally *built* and we really do not know, nor probably can know, much about that -- Other than planetary motion seemed to be important to whomever designed all the Ancient's stuff. Which suggests that they came from space, or wanted to go to space.

[> The Grave Eclipse (which interferes with energy from "sol")> The Mourning Moon (a giant psy energy votex)]

> The Grave Eclipse (which interferes with energy from "sol")
> The Mourning Moon (a giant psy energy votex)

> The Apollo Lense (which channels the light energy from... the sun? or "sol?")
> The Golden Sun  (an abundance of psy energy)

Grave Moon and Apollo Lens
> The Grave Eclipse: Which interferes with energy from "sol"
> The Apollo Lenses: Which channels the light energy from "sol"

Mourning Moon and Golden Sun
> The Mourning Moon: A giant psy energy votex
> The Golden Sun: An abundance of psy energy

At least that's my working theory until I fact check some more.  But if true, we can identify dark powers by looking at all the monsters one would fight underground.

Also, this implies some things about Weyard, that

1.  The presence of evil energy is the default state, and is actively countered by sol.
2.  Alchemy is a light that can withstand the darkness, similar to sol.

3.  The absence of light energy (and the default presence of dark energy) causes creatures to involve in one way.
4.  The presence of light energy causes evolution in another way.

Also,

5. It supports Luna Blades (?) fan fics of evil creatures being found underground.
6. It supports my fan fic that whatever's under Weyard is a dark, dark place. (I'm talking about the entire planet here)

This was not a Freudian slip, but me following a working theory, and exploring the ideas that come with them.  Your portrayal of my ideas are... disingenuous, to say the least.

If you're not listening to what I'm saying, and then lying about what I'm saying, what could I possibly gain from conversation with you?

TLA clearly shows a flat planet, and you can reach every edge.  Flat planet is flat.

Summon animations also pretty much destroy the planet, so your argument is also that the heroes blew it the heck up instead of saving it...

TLA shows the edges of Weyard, not the planet.  Beneath Weyard is a major gravitational force.  Beneath Weyard are clouds.

No summon animations destroy the planet, but do cause devastation over the surface of the planet, perhaps giving some insight into what happened in the past.

The following isn't evidence, but the puzzles of Dark Dawn feature metaphors for star constellations, and the movement of heavenly bodies.  Even if Weyard itself doesn't exist in a physical space, there is a physical space to which Weyard is connected.  Therefore it is not unreasonable to bring in a little science into this discussion of a magical world.

I am not so interested in whether you agree or not, but at least understand and respect why I hold the opinions I do.

Summon animations feature a round planet. Round planet is round.

[Red:]

Red: At no point in the game were the psynergy vortexes implied to be the same as darkness.

And neither do I, which is why they are separate bullets. 

Many on your points are interesting, but overall you seem to be in the habit of misinterpreting people so that you can have the satisfaction and believing they're wrong (and that you corrected them).  And I can see how this will become increasingly irritating as time goes on, and I'm going to disengage from the conversation.

1:  ...Um, no.  No it's not.  It's far from that.  It took alchemy for both Dark and Light in Dark Dawn, and both are a part of alchemy in their own way.  They are not symbolic at all anymore.
2:  Well, that certainly explains a lot.  Okay, stop now and play the first two.  Before you do anything else.
3:  I'm making a point about Good and Evil in the GS series after your mention of "Evil Energy"
4:  Still pretty sure you referenced Evil Energy having a default state, referring to darkness.

1.  The only potentially new kind of alchemy was from Luna Tower, and it's debatable as to whether it radiated out a different kind of energy, a barrier to sol energy, or a filter for sol energy.
2. Nope.
3. Ctrl + F.  Search for when I mentioned 'evil energy'
4. Yes, I did reference that darkness was the default state, which, as an aside, is not uncommon in the world's mythologies, and neither do most of those mythologies describe the unnatural as evil.

Question: are there any issues with the entry on
http://goldensunwiki.net/Grave_Eclipse
?

It seems that Luna Tower limits sol, but I'm not sure if the dark energy output is a side effect of how Luna Tower works, or if it's just the absence of sol. If it's the former, then Dark Energy exists precisely to absorb and store light, as sort of pseudo (but not infinite) vortexes.  But then isn't it still basically the absence of psy energy?

We have another point of data on light and dark energy, and that is how it feels to people.  Dark energy feels like evil energy, whereas light energy seems to make people feel good.  Is this basically the DnD thing of channeling positive and negative energy?  Whereas as the other stuff is just arcane?

We have skeleton warriors, don't we?

Argh, I know this is too simple, but I gotta go. Later.  Feel free to disagree.  It's just a step in the conversation, and even I don't agree with it.  But we gotta walk the walk.

Can't find much historical references for weyard, but alternate spellings sort of work.

Yep. Basically.  The planet below is engulfed in dark energy, and a few escape it by building the drifting continent of Weyard (or something like it, since this is its own world), as sort of an [Noah's] Ark.

The next suggestion was that the god-beings on Weyard try to recreate life on the dark planet, using methods which paralleled other creation myths.  Such Prometheus bringing down fire, or maybe shooting down beams of light  ('let there be light')

I still think it's Olympus.  And mortals basically got stuck up there.

Alternately, given the name "Weyard" (as Passaj), it seems like a way point between places.  I like the idea of there being other shards or floating plateaus like Weyard.

But the relationship between the symbols haven't changed.  Darkness is still the absence or counter of alchemy, and Light is still the presence of alchemy.  Literally, AND symbolically.  It seems that Dark Dawn has *added* to the lore in a way that makes sense, without changing what was once known.

That the alchemy engines keep away the Grave Eclipse monsters shows that alchemy is a force similar to sol, and so the light energy we see in Dark Dawn isn't something we hadn't already seen before through the Golden Sun event.  This challenges your previous assertion that they're different.  And if they're not different, then doesn't that solve all problems?

Also, I don't know how much of GS you have played, but I pray it's not just DD.

It's totally just DD.  But I'm familiar with the 'gray area' theme of the series, and the stuff you mentioned.

If you've got a force that is for sure evil, I highly recommend it not be a Golden Sun story, as I guarantee you even B&C had very good reasons for wanting to attack their own country with the Apollo Cannon - perhaps to open a rebellion against an oppressive emperor, for instance.  To fight for the freedom of their people.  We still don't know Alex's motives, but something tells me he knows something's coming, and all this questing for power is to try and be able to oppose it, ala Magus from Chrono Trigger.

See, here you've gone from talking about a force of energy (like light or dark), to talking about people.  Which is nice, but irrelevant to the conversation, no?  I don't disagree with anything you've said, and you are not longer talking about any of the things I've said.  I agree that Dark and Light are neither good nor evil.  

But mankind cannot live in the darkness, just as it could not brave the light of the sol sanctum.  These are not moral claims, just factual statements.

It seems to me that the story of Golden Sun is a story of a world that's lost to darkness, with Weyard being one of the last (if not the only) bastions of humanity left, kept alive by an artificial harnessing of celestial energy.

^ See?  I didn't use the word good nor evil once.

And I didn't say there wasn't a cost to harnessing celestial power... I thought that was implied, given all we already know about the series.

In another thread, I just raised the idea that the planet over which Weyard lies may have already succumbed to dark energy, and that Weyard managed to survive the darkness by harnessing the power of the gods.

So then what of the world below?  If it was nothing but darkness, could sentient life re-emerge from that darkness?  And if it managed to remerge, might an onlooker from Weyard brave the journey down to bring them fire (a la Prometheus)?  I think that'd be an interesting story to tell, and an interesting world to explore.  And this is basically an example of what might get me down the path to world building.

I also wonder if, by fear that the darkness of the planet may have sensed the presence of alchemy in Weyard, and may have come for it, that the Ancients then had to abandon Weyard, leaving behind what we see on Weyard today.

Sorry, my previous post was in response to this tidbit from your blog

Before Dark Dawn, Light and Darkness were symbolic and nothing else.  Sol seems to symbolize Alchemy, and Luna seemed to almost symbolize the Absence Of or Seal Upon Alchemy.  Dark Dawn threw all that out the window by making them actual things.

Basically, I see no reason why Dark Dawn changed the fundamental presence/absence of alchemy concept.  I think my previous post argues that it boils down to "sol" vs. "absence of sol"

Because dark energy is already everywhere, and already pervades much of the planet.  It seems to me that the story of Golden Sun is a story of a world that's lost to darkness, with Weyard being one of the last (if not the only) bastions of humanity left, kept alive by an artificial harnessing of celestial energy.

Alright, so I guess there's

> The Grave Eclipse (which interferes with energy from "sol")
> The Mourning Moon (a giant psy energy votex)

> The Apollo Lense (which channels the light energy from... the sun? or "sol?")
> The Golden Sun  (an abundance of psy energy)

The parallels seem neat enough.  Dark Monsters spawn in the shadow of the Grave Eclipse, except near the presence of alchemy engines, such as the Well in Ayuthay, the Forge in Passaj, and the Lights in Harapa (activated by the Well and the Forge).  What's curious then is why dark monsters don't always appear in dark places.  Underground, for instance, or Tanglewood forest after dark (the starting dungeon in Dark Dawn).  It stands to reason that creatures that are found in those dark places are already evolutions of what the dark creatures of the grave eclipse may have turned into.

At least that's my working theory until I fact check some more.  But if true, we can identify dark powers by looking at all the monsters one would fight underground.

Also, this implies some things about Weyard, that

1.  The presence of evil energy is the default state, and is actively countered by sol.
2.  Alchemy is a light that can withstand the darkness, similar to sol.

3.  The absence of light energy (and the default presence of dark energy) causes creatures to involve in one way.
4.  The presence of light energy causes evolution in another way.

Also,

5. It supports Luna Blades (?) fan fics of evil creatures being found underground.
6. It supports my fan fic that whatever's under Weyard is a dark, dark place. (I'm talking about the entire planet here)

as it turns out, I hate reading.  Sing me a song or something.  Or at least post a two sentence wrap up.

To me, a Dark Adept is someone who is either of the Dusk, Nadir, or Eclipse affinities.  You cannot literally wield darkness, though.  Haures and Charon are Venus elemental, and all of the Chaos Chimera's "dark abilities" were elemental in nature.

ok, so you've got an affinity system, which I presume is because the world is composed of those components, and different people resonate differently with those components...

If that's the case, is it something you brought up in "why do Adepts exist?"  Seems like the perfect place for it.

(reading now, and hating every second of it)

(neat web design though, I can see why you'd want to show it off)

How do you do it?  Why do you do it?

Often times worlds are said to be built by accident, but sometimes they're built for a purpose.  Truth be told, I've only ever built worlds after I've had some sort of story to tell, or a concept to flush out.  In that context, the worlds I built were mostly cradles or wombs-- They were secondary characters, rather than independent characters in and of themselves, and I know many who critique that.

So I guess this thread is to talk about the worlds we've built, and how or why we've built them.

I see Weyard as an artificial escape pod meant to escape whatever fate befell those below.

OR it's Olympus.