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And what would dark psi-energy be?

Since there's no one stopping me, I'm going to make a bunch of things up.  I think dark-adepts can use portals to teleport through both space AND time, and also merge their matter with other matter, ie. to combine into a chaos chimera.

This is sort of a quantum theory idea, where under harsh light, there is but one reality, but without light (when there is no cosmic "observer"), reality may skip and skew as it pleases.  So things that would be well defined (space, time, matter) are no longer well defined.

This also applies to identity.  When using dark psi-energy (I spell it that way because I can, and because I'm used to saying psionics), people lose sense of their identity, and this may also have the effect of losing sense of their sanity.

Is it reasonable to say that it was created and sustained using alchemy, which is why it began to fall apart when alchemy was sealed?

Hmm... What's the consensus on how and why Weyard came into existence in the first place?

I had assumed that the Golden Sun event and [whatever happened at the end of Dark Dawn] were similar, but I'll look into it.

Quick clarification on this:  I assumed both were similar due to the aesthetic similarities, as well as having a similar evolutionary effect on beasts.

Okay, I'm lost... why are we using a Solar System model when Weyard's flat nature and those long falls we take in the games very clearly demonstrate that gravity does not work the same way in the GS universe and thus follows a different set of laws of physics?  You know, a set that allows for things like psynergy/magic? 

I don't think it's a model of the solar system, but an estimate of *where* summons seem to come from when depicted through cut scene animations in the game (That's my guess, I didn't look too closely at the image, and I don't know what argument it was promoting either).  As you know, the summons videos often depict extraterrestrial bodies approaching a circular planet, suggesting that the plateau (or floating island) of Weyard is on a normal planet, even if suspended by unnatural or magical means.

That said, I don't know how it contributes to the discussion... I suppose it can be used to see if certain psi energy types are associated with certain distances from Weyard.

Remember: the Alchemy was natural in Weyard. That's why sealing it caused the world to enter in collapse.

And unsealing it caused psiEnergy vortexes to start popping up, and caused the world to enter into chaos?

-- I hope the reason so many of you dislike DarkDawn has nothing to do with the fact that it upset some of your pet fan theories.  That just wouldn't be cool.

alright, I'm leaning towards the "z is up" way of doing things, which at least also seems to be the approach followed in Second Life, and I assume in other 3D systems like Blender, Maya, etc, though I haven't confirmed this.

Here are some links.  The later stuff even contains some equations and stuff which I might make use of, but in the short term I'll stick with adapting what I have. I mean, I ain't afraid of no gimbal locks... I think.

http://secondlife.wikia.com/wiki/Axis
http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Rotation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_hand_rule  (but this time using z as up)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tait-Bryan_angles#Tait.E2.80.93Bryan_angles

Well, the lighthouses could have been built to keep the balance between elements. To me, they look more like sources of power than like seals of it... But, if it is said in the game, then you must be right.

Wow, just realised, I must look like a guy who questions everything... sorry for that, I'm just trying to understand the history. Btw, thank you for answering ^^

Think about something: they were built very far from each other, and, to enter them, you have to be an adept AND solve A LOT of puzzles. What's the logical reason behind this? To make sure all the beacons stay unlit unless a group o adepts (at least one of each kind) are very determined (an urgent reason) to lit them.
They are only a source of power once lit. Just remember the dialogues at both Lighthouses.

If you want the light houses to remain unlit, then why not destroy them, or at least make it mechanically impossible to light them?

The answer is that they were switches, meant to be able to be turned on or off when a select few (adepts) decided to do so.  Their design suggests (1) adaptive management, in that the houses would be lit and unlit as needed, and (2) control by committee, where the decision to light them was in the hands of more than one individual, assuming that an individual could only be an adept of one element.

'Aadaptive management' is an engineering term you should look up if you're not already familiar with it.  It's prevalent in situations where there is no stable 'steady state,' and that seems to describe Weyard perfectly.

Bump on this conversation, given the renewed interested in Anemos, but also in Dark Energy, given that 'losing control or sanity' seems to be a dark energy effect, as suggested by the effect on Sveta's  brother in Dark Dawn.  I'm of course talking about Garoh, rather than beastmen, here. (where people became insane and more bestial)

Are beast men associated with light energy, whereas the werewolves are clearly under a dark energy effect?  As a reminder, the end zone of Dark Dawn was built by beast folk using Umbral gear, and there are plenty of reminders in the series that the golden sun event evolved beast folk, and that the light phenomenon at the end evolved them further into a golden form.  This is why I'm assuming the two (light energy and the golden sun event) to be similar and related, until I do further research.

But on the surface of it, both bestial examples seem to present a nice dichotomy between light and dark.

I had assumed that the Golden Sun event and the Apollo sanctum were similar, but I'll look into it.

I don't recall Dark Dawn ever using the term 'Dark Adept,' but instead what we see from them are psi energy grenades and grappling hooks and steam punk stuff to get by without psi energy.  Therefore they seem more anti psi energy than dark adepts.

The exception to this may be the impact had on Sveta's brother, and the forming of the Chaos Chimera.  These would be the clues I'd look at to explore dark psi energy (if that's what it is), but I have yet to put in the leg work to do so.  But it does fit with eastern concepts that light identifies and distinguishes (it is the [individual] conscious), while dark nurtures and embraces (it is the [collective] unconsciousness )-- in this case, it removed the distinction between the three individuals and made them one [while yet retaining their individual identities].

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Another fan idea I mentioned somewhere was the idea that using alchemy actually sucked out energy from alternate dimensions, causing psi energy vortexes to appear there (you can't create something from nothing).  Thus we'd have two dimensions sucking energy from one another, putting both in peril the more they used psi energy.  This idea was created solely for the purpose of building on the name 'dimensional crisis' and creating a set up where the community could work on something in the GS universe that yet was different from Weyard, but it does create motivation for a group that rejects the use of psi energy, and wishes to adapt to the spread of dark energy, rather than fight it using alchemy.

A 'dark adept' in this instance would not be one who can use dark psi energy, but one who can adjust to the darkness and survive it.

But as stated, I have not done the research to vet the idea, and I don't think developing a concept for a community project is required or even desirable in the short term.  I still think the notion of the dark energy adept is cool though.

Critical Hit was the one 4e podcast I listened to as well.  I followed their intro session up until about the point where they teamed up with the gnome and took on the poison dragon thing on the airship... It was a long time ago.  I haven't kept up.

Rolld20.net seems to be all the rage with my friends who are trying to stay in touch via gaming.  It'll probably be right up your alley if you're a consistent Skype user.  Give it a shot.

If you're looking for local friends, check if there's a Pathfinder Society nearby.  They tend to be super friendly, and they're designed to be open to people dropping in and out, so there's little risk to dipping your toes in.

But my question remains: Why use 4e if it's the most expensive option, and if support for it is ending anyway?

well, Golden Sun puzzles, especially Dark Dawn, are all about elevation differences.  And so are tactics games, AND platformers, and they're also important to brawlers like Little Fighter 2 (great game, you should look it up).  These are fundamentally the reasons why I'm not using RPG Maker, which would otherwise be perfect.

Basically I'll be using height a lot.  Especially if I'm doing different game types.

Side Question (@ Rolina):  I own the 4e Red Beginner's Box, but the only campaigns I've been in were v3.5, or Pathfinder, and made extensive use of online System Reference Documents (SRDs) for rules and options and the like.  I.e. http://www.d20pfsrd.com/, which is excellent in every regard.

I just searched for something similar for DnD 4e, but found pitifully little, perhaps explained by http://www.d20source.com/2008/06/4e-srd-is-out-we-still-have-to-buy-the-books

So I'll ask, given that DnD Next is expected to release this summer, and 3.5 and PathFinder are essentially free to play, why v4?

Is it easier to learn and teach?  More streamlined to play?  Did some friends give you their old books?  Have you already been playing v4 forever, and so everyone already knows what the deals are?

To see the game in action, rather than reading the rules, you could search youtube for people who run DnD, PathFinder, or other game systems.  I personally did this when I was looking into GMing styles, and it can be quite a trip.  I'd point out

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This guy's channel.  "What would Anderson do?"  He's got a specific style and a specific creed.  He's got a lot of shorter videos you can check out to get a taste, and then much, much longer play tests of his custom game, which you're less likely to be able to commit to watching.  But if the shorter videos win you over, you may find yourself wanting to give the longer videos a shot. If you did, you'll observe how much slower his games go, but how much more meaningful they seem.  It's a stye many GMs go for but don't often achieve.

But really I recommend just watching his shorter stuff, and only based on the topics you're interested in.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCClLyw9A_TYGtAT-6Rs2pGQ

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A much more managable and standard experience would be people playing through PathFinder's Rise of the Rune Lords.  In fact, you could just youtube : "rise of the runelords session 1," and then see how different people run the same content.

Here's a 20 minute chunk I'd recommend.  The GM is commendable, and the style of the game is both casual and immersive.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYJPWjLaCyA

X is length, Y is width

Hmm... I think of X as width (left and right) ... and then get Y and Z mixed up as length and height? ; Although, to me, width/length/height sounds more like sizes than coordinates, but I guess whatever makes sense, works. (Since it's not like I'm familiar with coordinate terminology.)

X: Horizontal
Y/Z: Vertical

Normally in 2d settings, people first think about horizontal first (X), then vertical (Y)
But in 3d settings, it seems that people first thing about position on the ground (X,Y), and then height or elevation (Z).

So often it seems that people think of two distinct coordinate systems when thinking about 2d or 3d space... And that's really messing with me, especially since I'm creating a 3D system in a 2D oriented framework, which has y as the distance from top to bottom.

A completely different alternative would be to drop the XYZ convention all together, and call them "horizontal, vertical, and depth."... gah, is that really worth trying?  I suppose I might as well give it a shot... okay, might as well.  Actually, that's probably going to end up being a better and less confusing implementation, since it'll no longer conflict with the terminology used to describe the in-window coordinates.

One suggestion is to make X and Y be determined by arrow keys.

What do you mean?  You mean that when controlling an object with a dpad or keyboard, have pressing left/right change whatever the x coordinate is, and have pressing up/down change whatever the y coordinate is?

Otherwise I have no idea what you're saying.

Don't expect any custom formulas out of this, though - the goal is a strict "exactly how GS does it", so any balancing that could be done shouldn't be done.  Leave that for community edits of the game, should we be given the green light to do them.

I agree that recreating GS#1 is a good, stable idea, and having a stable mission like that might be a good way to contain or conserve people's creative energies.  If that's what we're talking about, I can think of no objections.

I agree with the latest discussion about light and dark, and disagreed with tying them to 'order vs. chaos.'  I don't think dark is a more "evolutionary force," for example, as we've also seen the golden sun event hyper evolve animals into more intelligent and humanoid forms, and increase the intelligence of existing intelligent humanoids (i.e. someone supposedly becomes a light adept and gains the ability to do calculus).

I think civilizations (or civilized cultural norms) take time to form, and that dark creatures may have, in time, created communities of order, just as the creatures of light must have a long time ago.  Possibly, there might have been a distinction between good and evil, but I don't see much basis for order vs. chaos.

This is perhaps off topic, but it might be nice to look at another plateau like Weyard (or maybe the underside of Weyard) that has creatures evolved from dark energy effects, as opposed to from light energy effects.

I wish we could just forget about Dark Dawn... Pretend it didn't exist, kkkkk.
I'm just kidding, by the way.

If you take issue, then the thread about "What are the weird things in Golden Sun that we might want to fix?" is the perfect place to talk about it.

I've come across the term "lawful good" a lot as I've scavenged old threads, and I don't think it ever applies -- Isaac is trusting, Felix is skeptical.  I don't think the distinction is lawful vs. chaotic.

^ Can I get more input like this from more people?  This is exactly the kind of thing I want to get a sense for.

What are the weird things we want to fix, and how do we fix them?  This topic was inspired by the following post, which may also be used as a starting point.

Remember when I was talking about the inconsistencies? Well, there are some things that always bothered me, for example:

1) Why the hell Mia did not try to heal Isaac's mother as she did with the old guy in Imil? Why Isaac did not give his mother an Hermes Water? I mean... come on... She is his MOTHER!
2) Why the group of heroes decided to help Babi? He is the worst guy in the game. He kidnapped Sheba, forced the laliverans to build his lighthouse, ruled Tolbi with force (making a lot of scared people flee from there). Before that, he cheated the Lemurians, who aided him in his travels... Why would Isaac help him to achieve eternal life?
3)... I'll remember more...

A lot of it seems to do with character motivations.