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Salanewt
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« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2010, 01:06:16 PM »

I did notice something though. The short summary that I said a while ago was talking about every nation in the world, but you are only applying it to the US. As such, many of your arguments do not work for the summary, unless the summary were only for the US. I was talking on a global scale when I made that post.

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The government has no business in what someone pays us, its the same thing has how much you earn. This answer is kind of vague can you please elaborate?  
 
The government has the ability to control the mandatory minimum for how much people must be paid. For example, I can not earn 5 cents an hour, because that is below the minimum wage.

Quote
Too bad you will have to pay for it later in taxes.
Yeah, but some of these taxes are so minimal that it becomes worthwhile to pay. I mean, I would rather spend a small amount of money per month instead of emptying my bank account if I get a tumour. Then I have to mortgage the house, lose the house, and... wait, we do not have this problem. Idea Of course Canadian citizens are overtaxed, but some of the taxes are actually beneficial to the population.

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Also, there have been much hotter years than 2010, I would know I have lived through it, besides you wouldn't know anyway, you live in Canada.


And what the deuce is this supposed to mean?

Have a nice day.

Edit: Actually, I doubt that I will participate in this anymore. However, an explanation for that insult would be appreciated.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2010, 01:33:03 PM by Salanewt » Logged

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JamietheFlameUser
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« Reply #16 on: December 03, 2010, 07:00:24 PM »

Canadians are overtaxed due to governmental corruption, Menaus.

And why do we have minimum wage laws? Because the country would fall apart otherwise. Employers would pay the minimum they have to pay to keep someone working there. Although, you do have a point. Lowered wages would theoretically cause lowered prices, unless I missed something.

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Global Warming? Lol it's a hoax, fact.
And I suppose the NASA moon landing was a hoax too?

I'd say climate change is true. Even as average world temperature rises, the Vancouver area and Vancouver Island are getting snow and -7 or -8 Celsius in November. Those are the lowest temperatures I recall having at home in my lifetime. Normally, snow hits mid-December if it hits at all. I'd say something's up.

As for health care, it's better to have to pay for it slowly than it is to have to pay for it all at once. And the US system of health care results in massive increases in cost, far more than can be explained by operation costs and staff pay. In the US, people are in it for profit. I find that sickening.

The government was created for the protection and well-being of the people. If your continued survival and comfort is your own responsibility and yours only, there is no reason for government.
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Menaus
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« Reply #17 on: December 06, 2010, 03:08:16 AM »

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And I suppose the NASA moon landing was a hoax too?

Lol, since when?

Quote
The government was created for the protection and well-being of the people. If your continued survival and comfort is your own responsibility and yours only, there is no reason for government.

Lol, is this to me or Salanewt? I said the government is made to protect you, Sala was the one who said it was to take care of you. However, the government isn't made to give you a house or medical attention, its made for the people, and by the people. Not 'for paying the peoples bills and take care of them' But to make sure liberty is intact. Your liberty ends with someone else's nose, meaning, you can build your own home, but you can't take someone else's home, you can't do anything that harms someone else physically essentially.

To fully understand liberty, you need to have good standards, the standards of a Morman(I am one :P) because if you look at it from the standards of a criminal, you might think "Well, stealing from someone wont really hurt them physically so I have the liberty to do it."

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The government has the ability to control the mandatory minimum for how much people must be paid. For example, I can not earn 5 cents an hour, because that is below the minimum wage.

I know that. I said: "The government has NO business in what we earn" And you answered by saying "So they pass minimum wage laws?"

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Yeah, but some of these taxes are so minimal that it becomes worthwhile to pay. I mean, I would rather spend a small amount of money per month instead of emptying my bank account if I get a tumour. Then I have to mortgage the house, lose the house, and... wait, we do not have this problem.

Yes, but those taxes keep adding up, and you think "Well that tax isn't too bad, and that other one isn't either" and you will keep saying that, but it will keep adding up and eventually you will be way overtaxed. Which means, your house might go to foreclosure because you wont be able to pay the high taxes. 

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:Idea: Of course Canadian citizens are overtaxed, but some of the taxes are actually beneficial to the population.

[sarcasm]Yup, because its you're responsibility to pay other peoples bills.[/sarcasm]

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« Reply #18 on: December 06, 2010, 03:42:55 AM »

I love how you missed the part where my comment was a completely sarcastic comment directed at your comment.

The government is in fact made to give you a house. Habitation is one of the basic human needs, along with clothing and foodstuffs. You know, they teach you that in grade... five was it? So, yeah. The government is supposed to provide housing for the people.

I also love how you completely ignored my comment about minimum wage.

Theoretically, overtaxation should never happen, because all the money taken by the government is supposed to go back to the people. Corruption results in that money not all going back to the populace, which results in overtaxation.

Salanewt is correct when he says that some of the taxes actually benefit the people. Keyword here being "some". Some of the taxes are used to pay for health care, so that it doesn't end up becoming a question of profit. The problem arises when most of the taxes are not beneficial to the populace, as is the case right now.
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« Reply #19 on: December 06, 2010, 08:19:40 AM »

Jamie, I was in a rush, I couldn't address all the points you made. Here is your answer to minimum wage:

Quote
And why do we have minimum wage laws? Because the country would fall apart otherwise. Employers would pay the minimum they have to pay to keep someone working there. Although, you do have a point. Lowered wages would theoretically cause lowered prices, unless I missed something.

Would you apply for a job that paid you 1 cent? No. Thus, companies have to increase the amount you pay otherwise they get no workers.

You don't see bigger companies like Microsoft or Apple paying their all their employees minimum wage, do you? This is because they know that someone won't work to make an operating system, or some kind of hardware for minimum wage.

Quote
The government is in fact made to give you a house. Habitation is one of the basic human needs, along with clothing and foodstuffs. You know, they teach you that in grade... five was it? So, yeah. The government is supposed to provide housing for the people.

Yup, the first existing people on Earth had to go to the government to build their house, they had a government make their clothes and harvest their food huh? And they had to have someone heal their wounds? Lol, of course food, habitation, and clothing is a human need. But you're saying it as if people can't get the food themselves, or make a cabin, or even find a damn cave. Like they can't even kill a freaking animal and cook it.

Did the government provide Abraham Lincoln his log cabin he grew up in? See this book series? Little Britches, its a true story. The father died and did the government help them out? No, but they survived and became stronger, and smarter in the experience. You can't have someone bail you out of something, otherwise you don't even learn from it.

When someone builds a house for you, do you know how to build a house? When your mom cooked for you when you were a kid, did you know how it was cooked when you saw the finished food? Did you know how to drive after you saw someone drive a car for the first time? NO.

Quote
Salanewt is correct when he says that some of the taxes actually benefit the people. Keyword here being "some". Some of the taxes are used to pay for health care, so that it doesn't end up becoming a question of profit. The problem arises when most of the taxes are not beneficial to the populace, as is the case right now.

Uh, I'm sorry, you must think I'm an idiot, I did catch "some".
« Last Edit: December 08, 2010, 04:58:28 AM by Menaus » Logged

"You state that I have misinterpreted my results, and it looks as though you believe my views to be unsound. Your arguments are those of an eminent scholar. I was myself a fair scholar. For years I pondered, so to speak, day and night over books, and filled my head with sound views–very sound ones, indeed—those of others. But I could no[t] get to practical results. I then began to work and think independently. Gradually my views became unsound, but they conducted me to some sound results." - Nikola Tesla
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Salanewt
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« Reply #20 on: December 06, 2010, 02:26:58 PM »

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I also love how you completely ignored my comment about minimum wage.

And my question about what he said in an earlier post as well. I am really interesting in finding out exactly what he meant. Of course, he can have his opinion, but I am very interested in finding out exactly why being in Canada means that I do not know what hotter temperatures are like, especially since there is a chance that I live further south than he does (given what we know).

You (Jamie) and I have pretty much the same views, and I think that mine might actually be less humane than yours, something that I thought not possible. As such, I am not sure if there is much that I can comment on right now, aside from saying that we are in a mutual agreement about this stuff.

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Little Britches,

This is actually interesting too, what do you think?

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No. Thus, companies have to increase the amount you pay otherwise they get no workers.

But the part that you are missing is that companies can not pay whatever they want. The government sets a mandatory minimum anyway, which means that the government does indeed have some control over what people are paid.

Also, wasn't Lincoln assassinated a few centuries ago? Just because your government was like that in the past, does not mean that politicians have not changed. Most information from back then is pretty outdated in this age, just look at women's rights and the rights of non-caucasians. We also have the fact that the government of each nation is different than that of the US. In fact, talking about how things in the past were does little for this conversation because everything up until about 50 years ago (or even 30) is too outdated to be able to compare to how life is today. Yes, people could do this stuff for themselves, but it is at least 98% harder in this age because life has changed drastically.

Have a nice day.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2010, 02:30:05 PM by Salanewt » Logged

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« Reply #21 on: December 06, 2010, 04:48:18 PM »

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But the part that you are missing is that companies can not pay whatever they want. The government sets a mandatory minimum anyway, which means that the government does indeed have some control over what people are paid.

I KNOW this, but they don't have to have control.

Quote
Also, wasn't Lincoln assassinated a few centuries ago? Just because your government was like that in the past, does not mean that politicians have not changed. Most information from back then is pretty outdated in this age, just look at woman's rights and the rights of non-caucasians. We also have the fact that the government of each nation is different than that of the US. In fact, talking about how things in the past were does little for this conversation because everything up until about 50 years ago (or even 30) is too outdated to be able to compare to how life is today. Yes, people could do this stuff for themselves, but it is at least 98% harder in this age because life has changed drastically.

So your saying history has nothing to do with our lives? That there are no examples of things happening that are similar to whats happening now? What about the Roman Empire(formerly the Roman Republic)? What about the second time in history America was found(Nephite nation was founded the second time America was discovered, it was a Constitutional Republic like the USA). You need to know history, or you are doomed to repeat it, right now the USA and many other countries are repeating many mistakes that have been done in the passed.

Wait a second, you said everything is outdated then, yet they can do things that we can't? lol fail
« Last Edit: December 06, 2010, 04:50:25 PM by Menaus » Logged

"You state that I have misinterpreted my results, and it looks as though you believe my views to be unsound. Your arguments are those of an eminent scholar. I was myself a fair scholar. For years I pondered, so to speak, day and night over books, and filled my head with sound views–very sound ones, indeed—those of others. But I could no[t] get to practical results. I then began to work and think independently. Gradually my views became unsound, but they conducted me to some sound results." - Nikola Tesla
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« Reply #22 on: December 06, 2010, 05:53:44 PM »

The government does have to have control. Think about China. The wages there are so bad that people can't live. Why is this? Because some income is better than no income at all, and the people are desperate. If you can keep the people desperate, you can pay them wages as low as you want, while keeping all the money for yourself. This is why we have minimum wage laws.

I realize that people can build homes and sew clothing for themselves, but that's not so easily done in today's society. Materials in today's society cost money, and going out and getting them yourself is not so easily done without other tools. For example, you can't cut trees for logs to make a house without a woodcutting axe or chainsaw or something similar. Problem being, making an axe requires stone and wood (though a random stick works fine in this situation). Then you have to carve the stone, which requires a chisel made of something harder than the stone you're trying to carve. So now you need iron. And so the process continues. Additionally, it's difficult to go get materials if you don't already have food and shelter. But in many cases, food and shelter both require tools. Tools you don't have because you're trying to make them. So except for a few especially hospitable environments, it's very difficult for people to get much of anything.

Hence, the government needs to provide for the people.

At this point in time, the only thing we can really learn from the past is politics. Most of the easy-to-access resources on our planet were used up a long time ago, hence why we rely on machinery.
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« Reply #23 on: December 07, 2010, 02:23:40 AM »

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The government does have to have control.

Lol, I have nothing to say to this, maybe you will figure it out sooner or later.

Quote
Think about China. The wages there are so bad that people can't live. Why is this? Because some income is better than no income at all, and the people are desperate. If you can keep the people desperate, you can pay them wages as low as you want, while keeping all the money for yourself. This is why we have minimum wage laws.

I see your point, however the people in China have no idea of what real money is, they all get their money stolen from the government. Tell me, would someone in the US or Canada apply for a job that payed for less than minimum wage? I think I already know your answer. And let me make a note here: China has a communistic government, which is only one step up from socialism, and the almost everyone living there are slaves. think about that.

Quote
I realize that people can build homes and sew clothing for themselves, but that's not so easily done in today's society. Materials in today's society cost money, and going out and getting them yourself is not so easily done without other tools. For example, you can't cut trees for logs to make a house without a woodcutting axe or chainsaw or something similar. Problem being, making an axe requires stone and wood (though a random stick works fine in this situation). Then you have to carve the stone, which requires a chisel made of something harder than the stone you're trying to carve. So now you need iron. And so the process continues. Additionally, it's difficult to go get materials if you don't already have food and shelter. But in many cases, food and shelter both require tools. Tools you don't have because you're trying to make them. So except for a few especially hospitable environments, it's very difficult for people to get much of anything.

Than Jamie, how did the first people make it who didn't even have a house to start it? Not to mention only their own two hands.

Jamie, in today's society its so hard to get the materials you need because the GOVERNMENT doesn't let you. Mostly because of the dumb tree huggers who create the laws in the first place.

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At this point in time, the only thing we can really learn from the past is politics.

Can you tell me why? Give me an example like I did when I said "know history or your doomed to repeat it"?

Quote
Most of the easy-to-access resources on our planet were used up a long time ago, hence why we rely on machinery.

Again, can you give me an example of this? I don't see any resource in our planet that has ceased to exist.
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