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Author Topic: Lessons we've learned from Dark Dawn  (Read 19533 times)
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JamietheFlameUser
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« Reply #15 on: May 28, 2011, 11:19:18 AM »

Actually, you can gauge Matthew's personality by others' reactions to your choices in conversation. There's usually at least ONE particular option that gives a funny result. That said, they didn't do a very good job of it, and I personally HATE silent protagonists. Lloyd Irving, Yuri Lowell, and Senel Coolidge FTW!!! Heck, every main char from the Tales series except for Stahn Aileron FTW! (Why Stahn? Because his Japanese voice acting sounds loud and obnoxious, and because he's dense. But anyway...)

Don't make a weapon system based on grinding: In DD, I would always accidentally grind without meaning to, thanks to always wanting to learn that next unleash. This, I think, is part of what made all the bosses way too easy. That, and the fact that they were too easy to start with. Or, at least, if you're going to make a weapon system based on grinding, make it so the bosses are actually tough enough that you might WANT to grind.

My two cents on the characters:

Matthew: Nothing to say here, except that it's funny if you respond with an angry face when what's-his-name betrays you after the Mountain Roc fight.

Karis: She's definitely intelligent (I do wish in-game characters would stop pointing that out, though!) and would make a good leader in Matthew's place were she not a bit cowardly. She's also a bit of a suck-up at times.

Tyrell: There's a VERY good reason not to let him lead. He's dumb as a post for a lot of the early game, and is impulsive for the rest of it. I hate how he was the only one to even TRY to stand up to "Arcanus".

Rief: He's a know-it-all and his voice is annoying. He is a believable character, though. He's also got no common sense whatsoever, which is why Matthew is still leader.

Amiti: Our local naive morality pet, which is why HE doesn't get to lead the party. Not such a bad guy overall, though.

Sveta: Has really very little discernible personality. She doesn't use emotes, doesn't express her opinion when she talks, and even her manner of speaking doesn't show any real personality. OK, so she cries for a while after Belinsk, but she manages to sound forced and dull even then! And then she's perfectly willing to nobly sacrifice herself without really any comment or inner monologue about the implications, just like your stereotypical videogame hero. That also really kills any potential drama in that scene, too. And she talks to Matthew during it, but really she's all just "Sure, we'll die, but at least we'll save the others!" in stereotypical RPG fashion. In fact, were it not for her angsting for a while, she'd very easily be able to completely replace Matthew as leader of the party. Except that, y'know, Matthew's the only one who can draw the Sol Blade (Himi could, too, but I doubt she'd be able to lift it), so you need him to be able to open the door to the Apollo Sanctum controls.

She seems to just be there for the cute factor and the furry fandom.

... Why the h*** does she know Cure Poison and Restore in her base class, anyway? And why does she also learn those two moves as a Gladiator? I can almost understand knowing them while in Beast Form, but...

Eoleo: He gets a few good lines, but you never really learn his personality, thanks to a lack of random conversation in Golden Sun in general, and the fact that he joins too late in the game. He'd probably be a decent leader, but nobody wants to listen to him thanks to that whole "first impression" thing. You know, the part where he instantly starts insulting you as soon as you rescue him.

Himi: Deux. Ex. Machina. I mean, you'd think the party would have the decency to be surprised when the Third Eye randomly floats out of their inventory and embeds itself in Himi's head! And then the other guy asks what happened, and you know what they say? "You've just seen it yourself." Seriously? Is there some bit of culture clash going on here, or am I missing something? And then she starts FLOATING IN THE AIR, and they aren't the least bit surprised about that either! While it's possible to learn about her future sight thing from the townspeople, nobody mentions that she floats during it! So why isn't anyone surprised?
« Last Edit: May 28, 2011, 04:10:51 PM by JamietheFlameUser » Logged

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« Reply #16 on: May 28, 2011, 03:17:38 PM »

Only thing I really disagree with for you there is the furry fandom comment.  Ever since Garoh, people wanted to to have a werewolf character.  This was fanservice to them.  Hell, this was a fanservice game period.

First four act as Expies for the O8, satisfying those who wanted the originals to return.  The tutorial fight also serves this.
Himi is a female venusian, which was wanted.
Himi is a venus mage, which was wanted.
Eoleo was wanted as a playable character.
Sveta was the wanted werewolf
Sveta also acted as a "Jovian Fighter" of sorts, also wanted.
Amiti was basically people who wanted Piers but with better equipment support (what was really needed was better class support, but oh well).
We also got bows to satisfy that last bit.


Long story short:  Want a game to not suck?  Don't add everything at once. Add new stuff in installments, not together, otherwise it'll backfire hard.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2011, 08:48:14 PM by Role » Logged

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« Reply #17 on: May 29, 2011, 12:01:18 PM »

Bows sucked. Not only were there far too few artifact bows in the game, the ones that were there felt weak compared to other weapon types. Worst of all, unless I missed a major area that was cram-packed with the things, there weren't any bows that were useful endgame.

I found that most disappointing out of everything else.
I think I've complained about the artifacts before, because (either due to so many characters appearing in such a small game or just because there weren't any) I found myself relying on normal weapons for most of the game because I found artifacts so rarely.

This doesn't feel like Golden Sun for 2 reasons:
A) Maybe we were spoiled for choice in the first two but there definitely seemed to be a lot more artifacts.
B) There were so many ancient ruins and dungeons in the first two games, and apparently even more opened up, that you expect there to be a lot of ancient, magical items like artifacts. In fact, now I think about it, the dungeons in Dark Dawn felt quite bare and empty.
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« Reply #18 on: May 29, 2011, 02:56:49 PM »

Himi: Deux. Ex. Machina. I mean, you'd think the party would have the decency to be surprised when the Third Eye randomly floats out of their inventory and embeds itself in Himi's head! And then the other guy asks what happened, and you know what they say? "You've just seen it yourself." Seriously? Is there some bit of culture clash going on here, or am I missing something? And then she starts FLOATING IN THE AIR, and they aren't the least bit surprised about that either! While it's possible to learn about her future sight thing from the townspeople, nobody mentions that she floats during it! So why isn't anyone surprised?
Didn't you know that this happens all the time in Japan? Srs.

Actually, you bring up a really good point. Personally I think that they would have been even more shocked and dismayed than western audiences because of the culture differences. If you look all around Yamato (or whatever it's called, it's been a while) there's a ton of stuff that shows its traditional atmosphere and their religion and all that.. When Himi is brought up with the Third Eye, she's pretty much the equivalent of Jesus in the eyes of her hometown... and then they're all like... "cool beans". I think that if Shinto prophecies or other religious contexts were coming true people would flip their @#$% in Japan, not just blow it off like "yeah whatever," maybe even the Buddhists would be like "THE HELL?!". Hell, with ANY religion I think people would be going nuts, so the fact that they didn't in DD makes it all the more excruciatingly stale.

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« Reply #19 on: May 29, 2011, 03:35:38 PM »

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Amiti - Oh man, Amiti. First off, every. single. goddamn LINE he says basically lays down exactly what HIS morals are and what HE thinks of something and it just blocks the whole goddamn conversation. After a while every time I saw his face in a conversation I instantly pressed "A", just because I knew damn well it was going to be something along the lines of "I disagree with that and I will certainly hate you forever because of it" or "I agree with this and I will certainly love you forever because of it". AUUUGH.

At least Amiti had a personality, even though it was an annoying one. You don't have to like every character that Camelot comes up with. Some characters where probably intended to provoke dislike. I was more annoyed at the beginning of the game, where everyone has to name everyone else just because the player could then look up who they where. Although I do understand the reason for it... It was still annoying though, made the conversations sound fake.
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« Reply #20 on: May 29, 2011, 10:11:00 PM »

I don't remember anyone talking about Sheba, but she still ended up in my encyclopedia somehow... Amiti's just a bit naive because everyone thinks he's Jesus or something in his home and he's never left it except maybe Passaj. He and Tyrell are the only ones with personality and the other characters don't like them much for it.
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« Reply #21 on: May 30, 2011, 10:23:19 AM »

I find it odd how no one ever mentions Kraden. Does this mean he's a perfect character, or simply not considered because he's only an 'honorary' party member?

Don't ask me why, but I liked Amiti. Especially the backstory they included about his father, which was only brought down because it wasn't used as an optional side-quest.

Karis was also pretty cool, although her arguments with Tyrell got dull after a while.
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« Reply #22 on: May 30, 2011, 03:28:27 PM »

Quote
Amiti - Oh man, Amiti. First off, every. single. goddamn LINE he says basically lays down exactly what HIS morals are and what HE thinks of something and it just blocks the whole goddamn conversation. After a while every time I saw his face in a conversation I instantly pressed "A", just because I knew damn well it was going to be something along the lines of "I disagree with that and I will certainly hate you forever because of it" or "I agree with this and I will certainly love you forever because of it". AUUUGH.

At least Amiti had a personality, even though it was an annoying one. You don't have to like every character that Camelot comes up with. Some characters where probably intended to provoke dislike. I was more annoyed at the beginning of the game, where everyone has to name everyone else just because the player could then look up who they where. Although I do understand the reason for it... It was still annoying though, made the conversations sound fake.
His personality consists of telling people that he thinks something is right or wrong. Pretty flat to me. lol

I mean, at least Rief and Tyrell had the balls to stand up to Alex, and even Karis was pretty bold. Karis is an example of a character I didn't like but would have to admit she did have personality. Amiti... er... no.

I find it odd how no one ever mentions Kraden. Does this mean he's a perfect character, or simply not considered because he's only an 'honorary' party member?
Kraden basically stayed the same. Which is actually pretty nice, even though he still is pretty damn talkative.
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« Reply #23 on: May 30, 2011, 03:47:25 PM »

Ah, but Kraden is a little funnier than I remember him. Remember that line about his messenger pigeon? It went kind of like "teach it to throw fireballs, and it would put you out of a job", when he was talking to Tyrell. This proves that both Kraden and Tyrell have personalities.

Amiti is kind of flat. Also seems to believe in labels quite a bit, as seen with Tret and Eoleo (wise and pirate). Instead of getting to know them, he treats them in accordance to what others have called them.
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« Reply #24 on: May 30, 2011, 07:24:37 PM »

Amiti starts out awesome, but once his black and white morality starts to kick in he just gets to be "ugh." He gets better near the end of the game, when he finally starts to see that not everything is black and white, so he does get some clear character growth, but the whole pirate thing and the thing with laurel/tret really just leave a bad taste in your mouth.

I don't think anyone is gonna dispute that eoleo didn't get enough stage time to really develop his character, or that himi was a deus ex machina in character form. Personally, I found sveta one of the most interesting characters in the game, and I can never really understand all the hate she gets. Karis had some definite personality, but I felt that they exaggerated her arguments with tyrell too much, and they needed to stop saying that she was smart and instead just let her show it. She does show her intelligence occasionally, but it just got annoying constantly being reminded by the other characters that she's supposed to be the clever one in the party. Speaking of which, I think that gives us another lesson to learn from dark dawn: Show, don't tell.
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[9:00:50 PM] Randel Peltier: Ok...what did I do last night?
[9:01:19 PM] Kain: Something boring, repetitive, and lasted for about sixty seconds.
---
[10:45:08 AM] Salanewt: But yeah, the elemental phalluses are being... Stroked up by Saturos and co., and the energy will go towards... Mt. Muffin, where the Golden Climax will arise.
[7:28:42 PM] Salanewt: An added bonus is that Isaac and co. were trying to stop Saturos and co. because their beliefs state that Mt. Muffin should remain a virgin.
---
[9:54:21 PM] Randel Peltier: Guess the number in my head an you get to pick what I say. Number between 1-10
[9:54:28 PM] leaf: 11
[9:54:36 PM] Randel Peltier: @#$%!
---
[8:38:13 PM] Randel Peltier: Shes like this queen up on a pedastal that I have yet to court.
[8:38:29 PM] Kain: You've tried courting her.
[8:38:43 PM] leaf: and failed spectacularly
[8:38:44 PM] Randel Peltier: Ive tried...shes the best dating game ever.
---
[12:24:35 AM] Salanewt: I need to find a picture of a naked person to put on the Christmas tree next year.
---
[2:19:06 PM] Zeadra: wait... Rief's a guy???
---
[1:09:57 PM] Zeadra: well if you want to know if its a new effect or something weird, just check GS1, if side step is there maby it is the nimble dodge thing
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« Reply #25 on: May 30, 2011, 08:48:24 PM »

Only thing I really disagree with for you there is the furry fandom comment.  Ever since Garoh, people wanted to to have a werewolf character.  This was fanservice to them.  Hell, this was a fanservice game period.

First four act as Expies for the O8, satisfying those who wanted the originals to return.  The tutorial fight also serves this.
Himi is a female venusian, which was wanted.
Himi is a venus mage, which was wanted.
Eoleo was wanted as a playable character.
Sveta was the wanted werewolf
Sveta also acted as a "Jovian Fighter" of sorts, also wanted.
Amiti was basically people who wanted Piers but with better equipment support (what was really needed was better class support, but oh well).
We also got bows to satisfy that last bit.


Long story short:  Want a game to not suck?  Don't add everything at once. Add new stuff in installments, not together, otherwise it'll backfire hard.
I FORGOT THE BIGGEST ONE!

There's people who called for a fifth element.  While there's still no fifth element, they got something very close that many people claimed to be said fifth element - Light and Dark.  And now we have adepts for both.  Cue every single horrible mary-sue powered fanfic writer going "HA!  See?  My character is using legit powers!"
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« Reply #26 on: May 31, 2011, 11:30:34 AM »

Oh god... Sure, I wanted a new element but did it have to be LIGHT? (and Dark)
I admit they seem the most obvious choices for new elements but that's also the precise reason I would avoid using them. Then again, it's not like Dark Dawn was anything but pathetically predictable. At least the originals surprised me occasionally.
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« Reply #27 on: May 31, 2011, 02:02:45 PM »

Well there weren't really many other options for a fifth element. Though where does that leave fire and its light producing qualities?
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« Reply #28 on: May 31, 2011, 06:43:19 PM »

I've seen Aether, Lightning, and Void all done as a fifth element.
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« Reply #29 on: June 01, 2011, 10:58:26 AM »

I was thinking Metal (although obviously that would need a better name).
When you think about it, it doesn't really seem to fit into the existing elements and Steel (the djinn) is the only thing that connects metal to any of them.
Also, a Ghost (or Ethereal) element could have worked, especially for the necronomicon classes. It may sound somewhat dorky but at least it doesn't fit into the stereotypical Good/Evil element that Light and Dark have.

They could even have taken tips from Pokemon and made Dark an element on its own without being obviously 'evil'.


Thinking about it, the necronomicon (and a couple of the triple classes) are probably why I object so much; they go out of their way to shove in your face "Dark is evil!" but give you the option of choosing classes that could quite nicely fit into the new Dark element. If I have the option of having 'evil' classes then can I at least play an evil character?
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