Unlabled Values

[Zach]

Thanks, that saves me the time of doing that.



For the unknown number variables, I will try my best to help you with that. I've noticed that classes with 2 versions (includes most of the classes) have the same numbers, so I assume that shows some connection to each other. However, some of these classes shares the same numbers with other class.

Here's an example: Apprentice and Page class series has the same number variable as the Flame User class series, which to my knowledge isn't related to those 2 classes.

Example #2: Guard class series has the same number as the Tamer class series, which to my knowledge isn't related to the Guard class series.

Is it possible that they may be related or is it possible that it goes deeper then we can decipher with the current editor?

Oh, sorry didn't see that.  Is this the Unknown top value, or one of the bottom values in the class editor?

the number variable in the bottom left corner

[Rolina]

Yeah... I've no clue what that number is.  I fail to see how it works, though I've not fiddled with it yet.  Problem is, dunno how to fiddle with it when I can't figure out what it could possibly be for...

We have required element levels, 'character values', and... well, that's the only thing I can think of that this thing goes off of.  Perhaps it has something to do with affecting the RNG?  Dunno... I do know that in GS1 when going for a perfect levelup file, some classes work with RNGs to get the perfect level, whereas others don't... perhaps that's what it does.  But how do you test that in GS2?

[Zach]

Yeah... I've no clue what that number is.  I fail to see how it works, though I've not fiddled with it yet.  Problem is, dunno how to fiddle with it when I can't figure out what it could possibly be for...

We have required element levels, 'character values', and... well, that's the only thing I can think of that this thing goes off of.  Perhaps it has something to do with affecting the RNG?  Dunno... I do know that in GS1 when going for a perfect levelup file, some classes work with RNGs to get the perfect level, whereas others don't... perhaps that's what it does.  But how do you test that in GS2?

well I didn't know how to go about testing it, so i just switched the values with another class to see if something would happen, but nothing did. However, I do stand by my theory that the classes that share the same number variables with classes that are not another verison of it (Example: Page and Apprentice with the same number variable as the Flame User) may be related to each other. BUt, it's just a guess

[Zach]

aww Role, you didn't even comment on my theory <.<

[Rolina]

Thanks, that saves me the time of doing that.



For the unknown number variables, I will try my best to help you with that. I've noticed that classes with 2 versions (includes most of the classes) have the same numbers, so I assume that shows some connection to each other. However, some of these classes shares the same numbers with other class.

Here's an example: Apprentice and Page class series has the same number variable as the Flame User class series, which to my knowledge isn't related to those 2 classes.

Example #2: Guard class series has the same number as the Tamer class series, which to my knowledge isn't related to the Guard class series.

Is it possible that they may be related or is it possible that it goes deeper then we can decipher with the current editor?

Oh, sorry didn't see that.  Is this the Unknown top value, or one of the bottom values in the class editor?

[Salanewt]

Oh yeah, I have a question that sort of fits into this topic, since some labels and digits are for classes in one section, and others are for equipment stats, right?

Well, I was thinking... Is it, or would it be, possible to edit the useable weapons... What I mean is would it be possible to have Felix as a squire and able to use swords, yet if we can change him to a wind seer, then he can use staves?

I was not sure which thread was the best to post this, but since this thread is talking about class values, then I thought that it might be appropiate to ask here.

Thank you in advance for answering.

Have a nice day.
 

[Rolina]

Class has nothing to do with equipment.  That's BUILD.  The build is determined in an... interesting way.  You see, if you want to have a weapon equippable to felix that normally isn't, then just go to that weapon in the ITEM EDITOR and make it equippable to Felix.  There's no other way to do it, though.  Class has nothing to do with that.

It's the item editor that determines a characters build.  There are five types of build, in two categories - Gender, and Body

Gender comes in Male and Female.  Duh.  Some eq is only equipped by males, other only by females.  For example, dresses are exclusive to females, whereas some armors could be only for males (or really flat females, if they can fit).
Body comes in "Fighter", "Spellsword", and "Pure Mage".  Fighters have Axes, Longswords, Light Blades, Maces, and Heavy Armor.  Spellswords have Light Blades, Staves, Ankhs, and Robes.  Pure Mages have Maces, Staves, Ankhs, and Robes.

All characters can use Clothing-type equipment.

So yeah... Class has nothing to do with it.  And can't have anything to do with it.  And SHOULDN'T have anything to do with it.  Just because you make Mia a Dragoon doesn't mean she can suddenly equip heavy weapons.

[Salanewt]

Well, I do see your point... It would be cool to be able to make weapons related to classes though, but it might get weird.

Oh yes, I was wondering... Since you said...

1 = Character 0 and Character 4's base class.
2 = Character 1's base class
6 = Character 3's base class
7 = Character 2 and Character 6's base class.
12 = NPC class
13 = Character 5's base class
14 = Character 7's base class
15 = If Mysterious Card is equipped
16 = If Tamer Whip is equipped
17 = If Necronomicon is equipped.

I was wondering (and since I have barely used the class editor yet), if 1 = Character 0 and Character 4's base classes, then how do you make them both have different base classes? I was also wondering this for 7.

Oh yeah, I found out that it does not matter where Star Magician is when it uses Mystic Call, it will summon those Balls. I know this because I switched the skeleton enemy group in Southern Indra with Star Magician.

Have a nice day.








EDIT: Now, I am sure that many of you have seen the 4 unknown digits that are above the rewards and under the moveset(s) of an enemy. I have noticed that many enemies are related because of these. Many enemies do not change if you change these numbers, but I have started to notice more things...

Briggs, Sea Fighter, and Chestbeater have, from left to right, 20, 75, 24, 0.

Ruffains that you fight when you control Jenna, and Toadonpa have 20, 75, 24, 0.

Moapa, Bandit, and Thief have 20, 75, 0, 0. So does Seabird, but it is not a boss.

Knight (Moapa's team) has 23, 85, 24, 0.

Also, Saturos, Menardi, Sentinel, Valukar, Serpent, and Karst have 12, 13, 0, 0.

King Scorpion and Avimander have 12, 13, 24, 0.

Agatio, Dullahan, Storm Lizard, Tempest Lizard, and Star Magician have 8, 9, 0, 0.

Star Magician's Balls (Anger Ball, Guardian Ball, Thunder Ball, Refresh Ball) all have 0, 0, 0, 0.

Doom Dragon and Fusion Dragon have 0, 0, 0, 0.

All of the Djinni have 32, 69, 0, 0.

Tret has 16, 17, 0, 0.

Kraken has 16, 17, 24, 0.

Aqua Hydra has 24, 23, 85, 0.

Poseidon has 31, 60, 0, 0.

Killer Ape has 31, 60, 24, 0, 0.

Does anyone else notice a pattern forming among some of these numbers (excluding the 0's)?

Also, bosses that have normal enemy clones (Chestbeater, Wild Gorilla) will have the same numbers as their clones.

Briggs has the same numbers as Moapa, plus one number that matches King Scorpion. Also, King Scorpion has the same numbers as Karst, as well as 24, the same number that Moapa's Knights and Briggs (his Sea Fighters and the Chestbeaters as well) have as their third. This is just to name a few similarities.

Does anybody have any idea what these do?

Changing Aqua Hydra's numbers to match Briggs' numbers appeared to do nothing. Nothing hapenned when they were turned into Doom Dragon's numbers. I also noticed that many enemies have 24 as their third digit, but the first two are different for some of them.

EDIT 2: I just realized something about the digits (I still have to test it)...

Maybe these 4 digits decide how often an enemy will appear...

This will not work for bosses, obviously, but for regular enemies, these numbers might decide, for example, how rare it is to see a Pheonix in Magma Rock (this is why related monsters share these numbers, because if one monster is rare, then why should its relatives be common)?

This is just a guess because you would think that these numbers should be with the group editor... That would explain why Djinni all have the same numbers, but their numbers do not match any other monster. You can only defeat each one once (you can fight them more than once if they flee). However, I do have some doubts on this theory...

Djinni have 32, 69, 0, 0.
Mimics have 16, 17, 0, 0 (same numbers as Tret, similar numbers to Kraken).
Mad Plants have 24, 0, 0, 0 (the same numbers as Vermin and Demon (I think).

Also, has anyone else noticed that for pretty much every monster, the last number is always 0? Maybe that affects something...


I am also starting to think that the order in which the numbers appear might not matter as much...

I also noticed that all of the enemies with 24 in their list of numbers initiate battles with you, but the rest of them either have a minor cutscene or you initiate battles with them. I have not seen many regular monsters with 24, except for those who are related to Chestbeaters (among a few others with 24). Also, you approach Sentinel and Star Magician, while the Mad Plant approaches you (but you cause the mini-cutscene, which might be why it has 24 as its firswt number, and the rest are 0).

I hope that these are somewhat accurate, and I hope that everyone has a nice day.


I changed Seabird's last number to 20. I am not sure if it had any effect, but it appeared to not appear as often. However, when I changed more monsters to have 20 as well, nothing appeard abnormal. I then went to the world map, but the game crashed shortly after. I am not sure if changing the number to 20 had anything to do with it. I will try changing it to 1 and I will see if that does anything.

I changed Mimic's third number to 24 (the mimic in the temple where you get Lash), but nothing appeared to happen. With all of this information, we have several ideas as to what they might do. Here are a few of my guesses... I know that it is the correct mimic because it dropped a Halt gem.

- They are just indicators. The numbers tell you specific details about them (eg. 24 means that they start the battle with you, not you with them). Changing the numbers does nothing, since these just indicate what happens in the original file. To change these, the coding of the game should be changed.

- By changing these, it might be possible to change events/how the enemy is met. Having the number 24 seems to change how a battle will start. Enemies with similar numbers might be related, and more likely to appear together (if allowed in group editing mode).

- Enemies that are related to each other share traits (mainly wild enemies, eg. Dino and Dinox). Because they have similar numbers, they will have similar traits. Possibly affected by how often they will appear in an area.

- It might be possible to decide how compatible they are with certain moves, and if they are likely to be affected by status ailments like stun, or sleep.

- The numbers affect different abilities, such as Posiedon's shield, and Doom Dragon's three heads each being a seperate enemy.

- The numbers indicate what happens when you defeat the enemy. Posiedon dies, you can go to Lemuria. Briggs dies, and you can continue. A Djinni dies, and it joins your party. This might explain why many anemies have different numbers, or else the game would not register certain commands or paths in the programming properly.

- It could be any variation of these, or any of these at the same time. This would mean that they could determine both immunity to status ailments and special abilities.

- The numbers are indicators, but the corresponding events can be changed. However, different numbers indicate different events.

- These numbers are used to prevent the game from crashing. Since many animations are used in the game, as well as many movesets (not to mention multiple movesets), then these numbers are required to prevent the game from not reading a command properly.

- I have noticed that the final number for every enemy is 0. I have not found a single enemy with their fourth number being anything different. Because of this, I will type in different numbers for fighting that Mimic again. You will see these either at the end of this post, or in a new post of somebody types a new post to go after this one.

These are just some of the ideas that I have. The ideas that are underlined means that I do not think that they would be correct anymore. However, I have posted even those that I do not think are correct anymore for speculation (and just in case I am wrong).

Have a nice day.


This post has been edited by Salanewt on Jun 26 2009, 01:24 PM

[Zach]

Well, I do see your point... It would be cool to be able to make weapons related to classes though, but it might get weird.

Oh yes, I was wondering... Since you said...

1 = Character 0 and Character 4's base class.
2 = Character 1's base class
6 = Character 3's base class
7 = Character 2 and Character 6's base class.
12 = NPC class
13 = Character 5's base class
14 = Character 7's base class
15 = If Mysterious Card is equipped
16 = If Tamer Whip is equipped
17 = If Necronomicon is equipped.

I was wondering (and since I have barely used the class editor yet), if 1 = Character 0 and Character 4's base classes, then how do you make them both have different base classes? I was also wondering this for 7.

Oh yeah, I found out that it does not matter where Star Magician is when it uses Mystic Call, it will summon those Balls. I know this because I switched the skeleton enemy group in Southern Indra with Star Magician.

Have a nice day.








EDIT: Now, I am sure that many of you have seen the 4 unknown digits that are above the rewards and under the moveset(s) of an enemy. I have noticed that many enemies are related because of these. Many enemies do not change if you change these numbers, but I have started to notice more things...

Briggs, Sea Fighter, and Chestbeater have, from left to right, 20, 75, 24, 0.

Ruffains that you fight when you control Jenna, and Toadonpa have 20, 75, 24, 0.

Moapa, Bandit, and Thief have 20, 75, 0, 0. So does Seabird, but it is not a boss.

Knight (Moapa's team) has 23, 85, 24, 0.

Also, Saturos, Menardi, Sentinel, Valukar, Serpent, and Karst have 12, 13, 0, 0.

King Scorpion and Avimander have 12, 13, 24, 0.

Agatio, Dullahan, Storm Lizard, Tempest Lizard, and Star Magician have 8, 9, 0, 0.

Star Magician's Balls (Anger Ball, Guardian Ball, Thunder Ball, Refresh Ball) all have 0, 0, 0, 0.

Doom Dragon and Fusion Dragon have 0, 0, 0, 0.

All of the Djinni have 32, 69, 0, 0.

Tret has 16, 17, 0, 0.

Kraken has 16, 17, 24, 0.

Aqua Hydra has 24, 23, 85, 0.

Poseidon has 31, 60, 0, 0.

Killer Ape has 31, 60, 24, 0, 0.

Does anyone else notice a pattern forming among some of these numbers (excluding the 0's)?

Also, bosses that have normal enemy clones (Chestbeater, Wild Gorilla) will have the same numbers as their clones.

Briggs has the same numbers as Moapa, plus one number that matches King Scorpion. Also, King Scorpion has the same numbers as Karst, as well as 24, the same number that Moapa's Knights and Briggs (his Sea Fighters and the Chestbeaters as well) have as their third. This is just to name a few similarities.

Does anybody have any idea what these do?

Changing Aqua Hydra's numbers to match Briggs' numbers appeared to do nothing. Nothing hapenned when they were turned into Doom Dragon's numbers. I also noticed that many enemies have 24 as their third digit, but the first two are different for some of them.

EDIT 2: I just realized something about the digits (I still have to test it)...

Maybe these 4 digits decide how often an enemy will appear...

This will not work for bosses, obviously, but for regular enemies, these numbers might decide, for example, how rare it is to see a Pheonix in Magma Rock (this is why related monsters share these numbers, because if one monster is rare, then why should its relatives be common)?

This is just a guess because you would think that these numbers should be with the group editor... That would explain why Djinni all have the same numbers, but their numbers do not match any other monster. You can only defeat each one once (you can fight them more than once if they flee). However, I do have some doubts on this theory...

Djinni have 32, 69, 0, 0.
Mimics have 16, 17, 0, 0 (same numbers as Tret, similar numbers to Kraken).
Mad Plants have 24, 0, 0, 0 (the same numbers as Vermin and Demon (I think).

Also, has anyone else noticed that for pretty much every monster, the last number is always 0? Maybe that affects something...


I am also starting to think that the order in which the numbers appear might not matter as much...

I also noticed that all of the enemies with 24 in their list of numbers initiate battles with you, but the rest of them either have a minor cutscene or you initiate battles with them. I have not seen many regular monsters with 24, except for those who are related to Chestbeaters (among a few others with 24). Also, you approach Sentinel and Star Magician, while the Mad Plant approaches you (but you cause the mini-cutscene, which might be why it has 24 as its firswt number, and the rest are 0).

I hope that these are somewhat accurate, and I hope that everyone has a nice day.


I changed Seabird's last number to 20. I am not sure if it had any effect, but it appeared to not appear as often. However, when I changed more monsters to have 20 as well, nothing appeard abnormal. I then went to the world map, but the game crashed shortly after. I am not sure if changing the number to 20 had anything to do with it. I will try changing it to 1 and I will see if that does anything.

I changed Mimic's third number to 24 (the mimic in the temple where you get Lash), but nothing appeared to happen. With all of this information, we have several ideas as to what they might do. Here are a few of my guesses... I know that it is the correct mimic because it dropped a Halt gem.

- They are just indicators. The numbers tell you specific details about them (eg. 24 means that they start the battle with you, not you with them). Changing the numbers does nothing, since these just indicate what happens in the original file. To change these, the coding of the game should be changed.

- By changing these, it might be possible to change events/how the enemy is met. Having the number 24 seems to change how a battle will start. Enemies with similar numbers might be related, and more likely to appear together (if allowed in group editing mode).

- Enemies that are related to each other share traits (mainly wild enemies, eg. Dino and Dinox). Because they have similar numbers, they will have similar traits. Possibly affected by how often they will appear in an area.

- It might be possible to decide how compatible they are with certain moves, and if they are likely to be affected by status ailments like stun, or sleep.

- The numbers affect different abilities, such as Posiedon's shield, and Doom Dragon's three heads each being a seperate enemy.

- The numbers indicate what happens when you defeat the enemy. Posiedon dies, you can go to Lemuria. Briggs dies, and you can continue. A Djinni dies, and it joins your party. This might explain why many anemies have different numbers, or else the game would not register certain commands or paths in the programming properly.

- It could be any variation of these, or any of these at the same time. This would mean that they could determine both immunity to status ailments and special abilities.

- The numbers are indicators, but the corresponding events can be changed. However, different numbers indicate different events.

- These numbers are used to prevent the game from crashing. Since many animations are used in the game, as well as many movesets (not to mention multiple movesets), then these numbers are required to prevent the game from not reading a command properly.

- I have noticed that the final number for every enemy is 0. I have not found a single enemy with their fourth number being anything different. Because of this, I will type in different numbers for fighting that Mimic again. You will see these either at the end of this post, or in a new post of somebody types a new post to go after this one.

These are just some of the ideas that I have. The ideas that are underlined means that I do not think that they would be correct anymore. However, I have posted even those that I do not think are correct anymore for speculation (and just in case I am wrong).

Have a nice day.

That's a good theory Salanewt. Also, Moapa is a boss and Bandit and Thief are optional (sub-?) bosses

This post has been edited by zach on Jun 26 2009, 01:29 PM

[Salanewt]

Thank you.

By the way, for the fourth number (which seems to always be 0), I changed it to 1 for the mimic. I killed it, and nothing seemed to happen. I once also changed that number to 20 for several other enemies, but nothing seemed to happen either. I have just changed it to 100, but nothing changed...

Either my indicator only theory is correct, or it does not work on fixed battles (not random). I will have to see. By the way, new theory about having 24 in there.

If the numbers are only indicators, then 24 indicates if it is a random battle or not... 24 for it being a random battle (slightly random, not like the world map random or dungeon random), and 0 if the event to fight the monster is taking place before the fight (Moapa is planned, his Knights are not. But they join in with Moapa).

By the way, I am aware that Moapa is a boss, and Bandit is an optional boss. However, I included every monster that I could think of that was a once only battle. Oh, I forgot about the Tolbi Knights!

Okay then, Azart, Satrage, and Navampa have, from left to right, 20, 75, 24, 0 (same as Briggs and the Chestbeaters, which gives evidence to some of my theories).


Have a nice day.


This post has been edited by Salanewt on Jun 26 2009, 01:37 PM

[thenightsshadow]

I'm almost 100% sure the numbers are not related at all to the "Game Progress" switch that tracks what you've done and what you haven't.

[Atrius (He/Him)]

I would think the data for where, and how they appear would be more related to enemy groups than individual enemies.

[Salanewt]

True enough... But these are just theories that might help shed some light as to what they do (or do not do) in the future. However, for how often they appear, it would make sense for the group editor, but it is possible that the numbers indicate how likely they might be in a group if the minimum is 0, and the maximum is higher. However, this is just a theory, and I do have many doubts about that one myself.

Have a nice day.


This post has been edited by Salanewt on Jun 27 2009, 04:12 PM

[Zach]

So how's the progress looking now?

[Daddy Poi's Oily Gorillas]

Earlier in this topic, it seemed that y'all didn't know the top value in the class editor...

If y'all still haven't found out yet (I tried quickly skimming over this topic.), I think it is the minimum level requirement. (Tested with GS2.)

For example, if Piers is Commander and you edit that value of Commander to be higher then Piers level, to see the results...  put djinni's on standby to degrade class, and then when you go to set them back, you will see that Pier's class did not go back to Commander.

Also, this also makes sense due to the number "1" in the first few classes...

Edit: Oops. disregard this post, this can get tricky sometimes.
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v

[Aile~♥]

Actually, that has something to do with the character's Primary Element Level and Secondary Element Level.

On the other hand, I have some info too:

Y'know the first unlabeled value in the Enemy Editor (the value to the left of the value used to set the chances of using each move)? If you set it to 1, the enemy won't try to use abilities they don't have enough PP for. Setting it to 2 or 3 I believe impacts what items they use, when they use them, and whether they sometimes use items interchangeably with the ability in the same slot. For instance, Briggs' value there is 2 (IIRC): He automatically uses all items in his possession BEFORE he uses any other command (I KNOW this one is true, but I'm not sure about the value). This became annoying when I wanted him to use his skills FIRST, so that he would use his Sacred Feather to restore 30% of his PP (yeah, I edited the Sacred Feather to restore PP instead of using Avoid) instead of using the Attack command.

[Daddy Poi's Oily Gorillas]

Oh, thankyou for correcting me...

Anyway, it seems Golden sun 2, also has arrangements in the Battle Data... Which reminds me of Superstar Saga....

Well... Superstar saga even has an arrangements database too, so the bytes in the battle database would index to them.

Anyway... I've made some notes here.... so I'll just store them below ... (also, so it doesn't seem like I'm going off-topic.)



P.S. - This game having enemies form a line... I doubt it has an arrangements database like Superstar Saga.

I've noticed the first enemy can be on the left, middle, or right, as opposed to the other two.

It seems those are the only three numbers used for that value....



----
and my next theory... all battles that are in one room are right next to each other in the list... (Well, Superstar Saga is like this, and for random battles they use a percentage literally in the battle data.... so...) ---

It just looks like they are in groups of 10, actually, I bet if I go under that red box and change the enemies in them, I'd be adding battles to this room... since each room may easily be able to have up to 10 battles. Just a wild guess. Since I'm thinking that each room has like one or two bytes to get the collection of battles? One might be the number of battles... but I dunno.



Um? Are you sure the last group is correct? "Venus Djinni" it just looks like something that should be removed..... (In otherwords... I've had a suspicion that data is actually something else...


I'm sorry that this may be off-topic and all... but what's up with this?

Mad Vermin and Hydra don't match.

I restart the editor and now they do match... but just note that this battle editor may need fixing.

[Rolina]

Earlier in this topic, it seemed that y'all didn't know the top value in the class editor...

If y'all still haven't found out yet (I tried quickly skimming over this topic.), I think it is the minimum level requirement. (Tested with GS2.)

For example, if Piers is Commander and you edit that value of Commander to be higher then Piers level, to see the results...  put djinni's on standby to degrade class, and then when you go to set them back, you will see that Pier's class did not go back to Commander.

Also, this also makes sense due to the number "1" in the first few classes...

Edit: Oops. disregard this post, this can get tricky sometimes.
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v

Atrius already checked the code and confirmed that it has to do with element levels.  See Atrius' post in: http://forum.goldensunhacking.net/index.php?topic=475.25

[Atrius (He/Him)]

JamieTheFlameUser, yes,  I'd figured as much though that value also seems to affect the meaning of the check boxes beside abilities.

Charleysdrpepper, thank you for the tip about sorting.

and my next theory...  all battles that are in one room are right next to each other in the list

That wouldn't surprise me, it's not uncommon for the data to end up organized like that.  It doesn't help us out much though because it still doesn't tell us how the game figures out exactly which enemy groups correspond to which room.  There's no actual value associated with this so it's not of any use to me really.

Your last point really belongs in the error report thread, I'll look into it, but it would be nice if you posted more specifics about what exactly you were doing when it happened there.  If it's why I suspect it is that error has already been fixed for the next release.

[leaf]

Hm... maybe the offset for the enemy groups is in the room data?