Golden Sun Online?

[Hoopa]

Sprites would indeed be the way to go. Maybe having a base sprite and then changing heights, a few hair styles etc? Or submitting a custom sprite if you're inclined to?

As for spells and the like, there'd be the in game stuff, along with some new abilities right? Though personally, I think there are enough abilities as is. Don't really know much about formulas and the underlying battle mechanics though, so I can't say anything about that.

[Rolina]

Not necessarily - since this would be done in a GS style, the character height should arguably only vary by a few pixels.  Furthermore, I'd suggest having them choose it as such:

Character Size:  (Small/Ivan, Average/Isaac, Tall/Kari)
Body Type:  Choice between bodies for that character size
Head Type:  Choice between head types for that body

Then, after that, a color selector.  It'd probably use a similar formula to GS or something, though with something in it to keep it from making skin color all weird.  The biggest problem, of course, is how we'd get a system like that to run smoothly.  I'm sure we could figure something out, but there's bound to be graphical hiccups at some point that we'd have to address by using such a system.

Furthermore, I do not believe that beastmen should be active from the start - rather, they'd be something we'd have to work on after we get a stable and balanced version of the game running smoothly, and then add them via an expansion pack style update - after all, beastmen have a beast form we'll have to deal with and balance.



As far as abilities are concerned, one of the things many people have wanted is new psynergy.  A lot of what we have now are simply put very similar.  Further more, there's about 5 base style spells for every element - 3 for one variant (Stone, Ice, Fire, Lightning), and two of another (Plant, Water, Burst, Wind).  To add a much wider variety, as well as a balanced variety, this would allow us to create much much more for people to use and enjoy - this is essentially a case of adding variety.  However, to keep people from just going in and making overpowered setups, they'll have to choose from a set of pre-made setups.

As far as the formulas, we all know the problem that'd show up - right now, at low levels mages would be strong, and at high levels fighters would be unrivaled.  The goal here would be to make them viable at any level.  And I'm talking witbout even having broken unleashes, either.  It's simply the nature of the system - psynergy is static, while attacking is dynamic.  While psynergy does have the key advantage of being able to strike multiple foes, there's still the issue that we're gonna have to do something with this to find some means of long term balance.  The key here is just that - long term.  Even in DD, it's all about the EPAs.  Mages just don't have a way to keep up in terms of damage, and are literally forced to play support or be on the sidelines.

There's a couple solutions to this - one is to add new stats and completely overhaul how it works.  We want to avoid this unless a future GS game does this.  The other is to tweak the formula so that psynergy is the same power when you get it, but slowly sneaks up in power as you level up.  An ideal way would be to allow Max PP to have a minor influence on it.

Furthermore, we have another issue - even with this new dynamic nature, they still can't compete.  Simply put, while added damage is one thing, the multipliers will just blow anything a mage can do out of the water.  This is where "spell damage" would come in - it's the mage's answer to the multiplier.  The tricky part of this is rather obvious - it's a brand new thing, and thus exceptionally easy to screw up.  Furthermore, the exact method of implementing this is up for debate.


Another issue to take into context is djinn.  A fighter can take advantage of all djinn, while mages get less mileage out of any djinn that causes damage.  Of course, this is an easy fix - spell damage style djinn and base damage style djinn would have a greater effect in the hands of a mage rather than in the hands of a fighter due to the influence of Max PP on the damage.  The trick here would to actually balance the djinn themselves within the game - nothing absurdly powerful like Chain, for instance, but nothing pathetically useless like Quartz.

Summons should be nerfed, but we already have an idea of how to do that - just drop 1% damage per djinn, and make it so that Iris is useful without being overpowered.

Basically, in terms of game balance, much of it is the same things we're looking at for the hacks, with one big difference - there is no 'uber gear'.  Even in our hacks we plan of having a variety of absolute top tier gear to choose from, but in this case we'll need to avoid those post-game game breakers and instead just have the top tier gear be a simple step up from the previous gear.  There is no signature gear for a player, as they're but one of a myriad of other players out there.


Custom sprites... I don't think should be implemented.  It's just unfair to players without artistic skill or money to pay those whom have it.

[Durza]

Djinn arrangement is also a problem. Venus and Mars mages would lack a lot of usable classes, as they mostly are used for EPAs and attack boosting, while Jupiter and Mercury fighters have no classes with more than 140% attack unless they're beastmen. An option would be to give different sets of classes to different builds, or to make the Master class available to Jupiter for 5 Venus and 4 Mars, and Paladin available to Mercury for 5 Mars and 4 Venus. Pure Mage would be a clear Venus option, and Warlock available to Mars adepts.

[Rolina]

Djinn arrangement is also a problem. Venus and Mars mages would lack a lot of usable classes, as they mostly are used for EPAs and attack boosting, while Jupiter and Mercury fighters have no classes with more than 140% attack unless they're beastmen. An option would be to give different sets of classes to different builds, or to make the Master class available to Jupiter for 5 Venus and 4 Mars, and Paladin available to Mercury for 5 Mars and 4 Venus. Pure Mage would be a clear Venus option, and Warlock available to Mars adepts.

What part of "We are making entirely new classes" did you not understand?


@Spirit:  Personally, I'm against allowing for canons, period.  They can be NPCs, but they cannot be playable, not even their sprites.  I don't want thirty different Isaacs running around the place screaming "MEGIDDOOOOOOOO!"  We've already had the discussion, so go back and read it then.

[Durza]

I didn't understand the way it wasn't actually said. Sorry about that.

Anyway, how would Djinn be acquired? Would the player get nine of their element, then trade with other players if they want to change classes, or would they get 36 to give them complete changeability whenever they want?

[Rolina]

I'm guessing that they're quest rewards.  I can't think of anything else, really.  They'd have to be tough quests, though, and have level caps to keep people from cheezing it by overleveling just to breeze through to get the djinn.  I do not want them to start with one, either - their first quest is gonna be a right of passage to get their first djinn - one that matches their class (fighters have offensive, healers have healing, support types have a support ability, etc).  Anyone who has not completed the quest cannot save their character - it doubles as weeding out people who just create a bunch of characters and don't play them.  It's not gonna be crazy lengthy, but it'll be enough to probably get them to level at least once, and get their first djinni.

Most likely, said quest is mandatory and is pushed on them right off the bat - I imagine what it happens to be differs depending on their build, element, and spell selection.

Wasn't actually said?  Look, when I said all the way back in my first few posts in the thread that the alt-classes would be determined based on what their chosen build, stat layout, and spell selection was, it was kind of implied that they'd have a set of alt-classes generated that make sense for that kind of build.  In other words, it was said.  You just failed to understand.

A very important thing here, that I have been pushing time and time again is game balance.  The original classes?  They are not balanced.  At all.  Physical fighters are simply superior in almost every way - logically, we cannot keep the same classes if we're gonna do that.  Also, if we kept the original classes, nobody would be a jupiter or mercury fighter, for obvious reasons.  They'd need to have fighter alt-classes.  I had thought I made it obvious, apparently I underestimated your ability to misunderstand.

[ThanatosTheDark]

They would get djinn by their element.

At the very first play, the player would choose the element, name, and a djinn avatar. Then they would pick its ability from a list of presets.

Here is an example:

Username: kingzane
Element: fire
Class tier: archer
Djinn: burning crowl
Djinn ability: Reflux

Of couse there would have to be cooldowns so that no one can unleash it every turn.

Here's an example of that:

Cpusername casts pyroclasm.
Kingzane unleashes Burning Crowl.
Cpusername takes 125 damage.
Kingzane sets Burning Crowl.
Cpusername calls Dullahan.
Kingzane unleashes Burning Crowl.
Cpusername takes 192 damage.
Kingzane sets Burning Crowl.
Cpusername uses a strong poison dart.
Kingzane unleashes Burning Crowl.
Cpusername takes 47 damage.
Poison does 29 damage to Cpusername.
Kingzane felled enemy Cpusername.

See how unfair/spammy/cheap that was? Djinni are to make a warrior stronger, not be attack slaves of pure psynergy.

Unless role has an idea.

[Rolina]

Of course it'd be of their element.  It's just they'd have a different quest based off of their element and unit type - they'd get the corresponding djinn at the end of that quest.  Or rather, the quest itself would be more or less the same, but there'd be very notable differences based on those factors.

As for your idea - you do remember that people power up with djinn, right?  While that is an option for them, at low levels, the multiplier djinn warriors get won't be as strong as a added damage djinn or spell, and lord knows there's no way in hell they'd survive the assault you gave.

Basically, you gave your own counter-example!  A Pyroclasm, Call Dullahan, and attack item will do way more than two unleashes of a single djinn.  You call it unfair, spammy, and cheap. I call it a strategy that will get you killed.  Consider looking at the damage on the other side - 200+ damage from Pyroclasm.  3x normal damage from Call Dullahan.  And the damage from the poison?  That gets applied to YOU, not them.  They used it on you, after all!

They do have cooldowns.  It's how it works.  You either set the djinn, or you summon.  We don't have to change that.  Also remember that reflux goes after you take damage.

[ThanatosTheDark]

For the record, I haven't played gs in a couple fortnights.

[Rolina]

I've not played it since I put down Dark Dawn back... what, January-ish?  Something like that.  Difference here is that I know the basics behind the game by heart.  Try learning it a bit more, it should help you on your hacks if you know general basics.

Here's where to start:

Physical damage isn't ATK - DEF, it's (ATK - DEF)/2.
Added damage adds after the /2 part.  Multipliers multiply the final damage (before elemental check is done), not the attack stat.
Phys elemental modifier is 1+  ((Pow-Res)/400).  Spells are 1+ ((Pow-Res)/200).
The top tier of the highest power spells hovers around 180-200.
Most foes are weak to Jupiter or Mars.  Venus is the rarest weakness.
At low levels, added damage is superior.  At higher levels, multipliers reign supreme.
Stat buffs are by 12.5% and 25%, with the exception of AGL which is 2x, and Res which is 20/40.
Djinn have three phases:  Set, Standby, and Recovery.
Using a djinn turns it from Set to Standby.  Summoning turns it from Standby to Recovery.

I can keep going, but most of these you should know by heart.

That 200 damage thing from pyroclasm?  That's because it's a top tier spell.  And Call Dully is the most powerful spell in the game, as it's got the power of megiddo, but with a superior element (Jupiter).  That's 3x damage.


The most amusing error here, though, is that in your example you had a poison dart used against you.  Apparently, it failed so badly, the enemy poisoned THEMSELF...

[ThanatosTheDark]

The only reason everything was reflected is because if we made this real, then the reflux counter ability would be just like mirror force from yugioh

[Rolina]

That's not how Reflux works.  It's a counter-attack, not a reflected attack.  You take damage, then return fire.  It's not even pokemon-style, either.  No double returns, just a standard +0 added damage EPA of the Mars element.

[ThanatosTheDark]

Technically, this was my idea and I could alter it if I wanted.

[Rolina]

...Ummm, no?  We're discussing what would make an ideal GS online game.  And game balance is very important.  You cannot just give the finger to game balance just because you feel like it.

[ThanatosTheDark]

I'm just saying, its a fan game idea and not every thing has to be exact... plus I thought we weren't going to create this anyway.

[Rolina]

I'm just saying, its a fan game idea and not every thing has to be exact... plus I thought we weren't going to create this anyway.

No, you're saying that things don't have to be balanced because "you say so".  There's problems with that - if we don't balance things, nobody will play the class that gets gimped.  Tell me, why the hell would you play a mage who's not a healer in GS?  Is there any benefit to doing an ubermage right now?  Any?  No, of course not - the balance is way off, you're much better off going either physical or pure-healer/support.  Offensive mages don't get much use, and are pretty much worthless at higher levels, especially if they're pure-mage types who don't get access to blades.

As for your idea about reflux - you're taking a relatively balanced ability and suggesting we turn it into a game breaker.  Why?  Because it was your idea, so it should happen.

If we ever do make this into a game, that's going to make players rage and rage hard.  It'll be the go-to thing that everyone has, because if they don't have it then they SUCK as a character.  It makes the game rather bland and boring when everyone has the same setup, you know.

[Durza]

Well there would be the occasional Impact-Guard-Ward mage, but Break makes them all but useless.

What if the ninth Djinn of each element was given for an achievement? Like Balm for healing 10000 HP?

[Rolina]

Then pure fighters and pure-attack mages are now worthless.

And you have a crapton of people just spamming spells or something.

We don't want that.

[Durza]

Not if you had one djinni for each, like Serac: earned by Mercury adepts for dealing 10000 physical damage. Balm: earned by Mercury adepts for healing 10000. Zero: earned by Mercury adepts for dealing 10000 magical damage. However, it would be a bit pointless to have two automatically unobtainable Djinn for each element.

[Rolina]

Gonna be blunt - that's abusable as hell.  All you have to do is spam a move until it's done - it's crazy broken for healing for that very reason.

Besides, nobody likes being forced to grind anyways.