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Thoughts on what we are made of...

Started by zman9000, 10, November, 2011, 02:10:49 PM

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Charon

You know, I just noticed, did anyone bother to read the description?

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From Ichthus Films. This film first presents a brief and simple understanding of Quantum Mechanics. Then from the truths we learn there - we apply those truths to what the Bible says about God and His relationship to us. It seems as though Science may have finally "found" God! ENJOY

Bias much?...

Rolina

Quote from: Thorion on 10, November, 2011, 02:27:55 PM
Religion is little more but mythology. We are creatures of flesh and blood, not what a storybook says. Flesh and blood is all that we are, it is all that we were, it is all that we will be.

Actually, my philosophy is that we are what we. I don't like either science or religion/mythology but I'll choose the most logical one.
I do want to say something about this - now, whether or not religion is accurate or not I don't want to debate, but it is very important to humanity.  Many of the social structures, moral guidelines, as well as, believe it or not, scientific progress is owed to religion.  Whether God exists or not is irrelevant - but mankind's desire to know who they are, what their purpose in life is, and how the world works is very important, and we wouldn't be who we are today without religion.  There's several points to this:

First, morality and social behavior.  Now, many atheists and scientists wish to discount religion altogether, but I believe this is a mistake.  As we reject religion and moral backgrounds, we fall more and more into chaos.  Look at how much rioting and what not has been going on recently.  Compare peaceful protests by largely religious groups with the current protests of those who couldn't care less about religion, it's quite telling.  Society needs some kind of structure and moral guidance, and religion has regularly been the basis behind it.  Whether or not God exists is irrelevant - humanity has a desire to believe in something better than they are, to strive to improve and take a moral high ground.  Their desire to be the better person is driven not by what is expected of society, but by the influence of religious beliefs within society.

Second, scientific process.  Contrary to popular belief, modern science has its roots in religion.  The strong desire to know where we came from, to understand our place in the universe and how the world works - these are things religion has tried to answer for years.  As advances in understanding were made, we stopped turning to things like magic and instead turned our attention towards a more practical approach, experimenting and analyzing everything around us.  The elements went from "Fire, Earth, Wind, Water, and Aether" to the freaking periodic table.  And most of the funding and research... was done by the church.  To better understand God and how he works, how he created things.  Somewhere along the line, the message got lost - science and religion, once the closest of allies, for some reason became at odds with one another.

Personally, I think we should embrace religion more, not because of a belief in God, but because of a belief in advancement.  Religion asks the why.  Science responds "let's find out!".  It'd be a beautiful partnership.

But for some reason, the world seems to be shifting further away from religion.  Religion is being used to justify sociopath behavior and war.   Religious texts, which were written in heavy symbolism, are being taken literally by both science and religion alike.  The meaning of religion and the potential of science and religion working symbiotically with one another is disappearing fast.  To be honest, it's a shame.

Kioll

Role, you're brilliant, I just want to make that clear.  You understand what I've been telling people around me for years: The Bible was written for people of an age long past, and was written to suit their level of understanding.  We can't be expected to take it literally any longer; we're much too smart now.  Also, zman, the current theory is that quarks are composed entirely of energy at the most basic level; meaning all matter is just different amounts of concentrated energy.  But that's just a theory.
I am the almighty emissary of fire...  the Mars Adept Kioll.  Oh, and did I mention that I'll see you long before you see me?

Rolina

Not quite.  You misunderstand - the people back then weren't stupid, you know.  Out of necessity, religious texts are written in symbolism, and that symbolism was taught to the people who followed the religion.  It was a self defense mechanism, as religious persecution is a huge problem in the world.  Was the world made in Seven Days?  Of course not.  Anyone who understands Judeo-Christian teachings will tell you that.  Hell, the Big Bang theory is freaking Genesis for crying out loud!  It was created by a catholic!  Science scoffed at it, and mocked it - that's how we got the name "Big Bang".  The scientific theory at the time was the Steady State theory.

But then the strangest thing happened.  Science found evidence for a theory - it wasn't their theory - it was their rival theory, the big bang.  While science did have some solid points behind their theory, they did the right thing and took the best parts from each theory and used them together.  But Religion, for some stupid reason, decided "It's popular, now it sucks", and now advocate Creationism over the Big Bang, despite that the Big Bang is, well, the theory of creationism.

Why science and religion insist on being bitter enemies, I'll never really understand.  They have so much potential if they'd just work together...

Kioll

Oh, contraire, I never said they were stupid; but their level of understanding when the bible was written was not high enough to understand things in the way we do now.  Had you started a conversation about something as simple as gravity back then, people would have...  Well, I'm sure you get the idea.  Now we are able to understand the symbols better than ever before, and yet people insist on claiming that it's not symbolism.
I am the almighty emissary of fire...  the Mars Adept Kioll.  Oh, and did I mention that I'll see you long before you see me?

Tetsuya the Azure Blade

QuoteTo better understand God and how he works, how he created things.
How do we know that God is a he? God might be a she or an it. God might even have been the big bang.
Who knows?

QuoteSomewhere along the line, the message got lost - science and religion, once the closest of allies, for some reason became at odds with one another.

That's the thing with allies, friends or even siblings. They can grow distant towards each other, and even become each other's sworn enemy.

Rolina

Quote from: Kioll on 22, November, 2011, 04:31:42 PM
Oh, contraire, I never said they were stupid; but their level of understanding when the bible was written was not high enough to understand things in the way we do now.  Had you started a conversation about something as simple as gravity back then, people would have...  Well, I'm sure you get the idea.  Now we are able to understand the symbols better than ever before, and yet people insist on claiming that it's not symbolism.
Oh really?  The Mayans had a better understanding of the stars than we did for many centuries, and they predated us by quite a bit.  We have new discoveries all the time that show us that the people of the past had a lot more understanding than we give them credit for.

I argue that they undestood a lot of what we know today - that the knowledge was lost in things like the fire that hit the Library of Alexandria.  Furthermore, they had different ways of expressing their knowledge that we are only just now beginning to understand and decipher.  The ancient peoples were a lot more advanced than we originally thought.  Those games where the ancients had amazing technology and understanding are not as much fantasy as we originally thought, they could very well be truth in television instead.

Never discount old cultures.  The reason we don't understand may simply be a difference in culture - they could have been a culture that passed knowledge down verbally, while we are a far more visual culture.  Why else would one of the biggest mysteries be our own past?

Kioll

Eh, but you have to take in account location as well...  Cultures with advanced understanding weren't everywhere.  To boot, knowing more about certain things doesn't mean they knew more about everything.  The bible's main role wasn't to guide our lives; it would be much more literal if it was.  It was to guide our hearts.  And somewhere along the way, that purpose was lost.  The main point really isn't about why it was written that way, although I suppose you and I will each have our own ideas on that.  The main point is that it WAS written that way, and the majority of the population refuses to admit it.
I am the almighty emissary of fire...  the Mars Adept Kioll.  Oh, and did I mention that I'll see you long before you see me?

Rolina

Aye, I won't argue there.  It's a shame that the original intent of so many things has been forgotten now.  Maybe that's why we know so little of our own past - because of previous periods like this where society goes out of their way to reject or ignore the past.

Misery

Knowledge and intelligence are two very different things, knowledge doesn't require you to understand anything. The people is and has always been guided by superstition, as only the belief that their actions changes the world they live in can bring them hope. The scientist who believes nothing can exist outside of that which is proven, disregards the very purpose of science. The supernatural cannot exist, as it would then by definition no longer be supernatural.

Rolina

Ah, but I must counter - what is the Supernatural, what is Magic, except something which science has yet to explain?  You know the saying that any form of science sufficient advanced is indistinguishable from magic, right?  Well, there's those of us who honestly believe that, and hold hard to it, claiming:

What is magic, but a field of science we have yet to discover?

Science itself has even given a name to God.  They call him "Singularity".

Misery

That's essentially what I was saying, that we don't know or understand something doesn't necessarily meant it doesn't exist. And anything that exists cannot be supernatural, simply because it exists. So my point and the logical conclusion is, if there is magic, there isn't. I mean, it's not like humans decide the laws of physics, we merely attempt to observe them from our narrow field of vision.

Kioll

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic...  I believe it was Voltaire that said that, although I might be mistaken.
I am the almighty emissary of fire...  the Mars Adept Kioll.  Oh, and did I mention that I'll see you long before you see me?

Misery

I guess magic can also be described as not understood, or not explainable by science.

So what do we learn from this?
Since sufficiently advanced technology is indistinquishable from magic...
technology = magic
And in the Middle Ages, people could use magic.
So in the Middle Ages, there was advanced technology.
And that, my friends, is why robots look like knights.

Rolina

Aye.  It's when you take that to the logical extreme, Magic is but a field of science we have yet to discover or understand.  All things can be explained through science, after all - that's what I believe.  Even things like ghosts and the supernatural, or arcane magic and stuff.

I also believe that the reason people don't practice the magic of old is because the technology of now is more advanced.  Who knows, maybe it is possible to cast a fireball spell... but it's faster to just shoot the guy.

Rolina

Jiten, I never said it has been used for war.  I said it's been corrupted and perverted to justify war, and that religious persecution has been a problem since the dawn of man.  Don't just paraphrase in a way that lets you spin things.

Charon

Whenever someone uses religion as their reason for doing something like war or murder, its an excuse than a real reason. I don't think that any sort of creative being would condone the destruction of its creations by themselves. That's why I hate anti-Muslims who burn the Q'uran and want to kill or at least suppress Muslims just as much as groups like the Taliban and all that. And yes, they exist. I live amongst them.

Rolina

Quote from: Charon the Ferryman on 22, November, 2011, 09:17:10 PM
Whenever someone uses religion as their reason for doing something like war or murder, its an excuse than a real reason. I don't think that any sort of creative being would condone the destruction of its creations by themselves. That's why I hate anti-Muslims who burn the Q'uran and want to kill or at least suppress Muslims just as much as groups like the Taliban and all that. And yes, they exist. I live amongst them.
This.  So much this.

Atrius (He/Him)

Quote from: Misery on 22, November, 2011, 05:47:51 PM
I guess magic can also be described as not understood, or not explainable by science.

So what do we learn from this?
Since sufficiently advanced technology is indistinquishable from magic...
technology = magic
And in the Middle Ages, people could use magic.
So in the Middle Ages, there was advanced technology.
And that, my friends, is why robots look like knights.

See: Leonardo da Vinci's Robot

My addition to the discussion in regards that Religious theory seems to align strongly with scientific fact is a little history on atomic theory from the Greeks.  When Greek philosophers began debating the nature of matter the reigning theory was that any element could be cut into infinitely tiny pieces that would still be the same element.  When early Greek supporters of atomic theory proposed their idea they failed to explain how atoms bonded, and their ideas were dismissed under the reasoning that if it were true everything would fall apart as though it were made of sand.  The philosopher Democritus came up with the idea that atoms had solid physical shapes that enabled mechanical bonds.  Iron atoms had hooks so they could form strong bonds, water atoms were smooth balls that could glide around each other, air took on a light wispy shape, there were even flexible materials made up of atoms with ball & socket joints.

The Greeks had no means to test their theory, it was nothing more than a lucky guess which was only partially correct.  Although it made for a good theory back when there were no ways to solidly prove anything one way or the other, clinging to the belief that atoms are solid shapes with hooks, or ball & socket joints would be more than a little silly these days.
[sprite=220,4,0]I'm shaking my head in general disapproval of everything[/sprite]

zman9000

well i see that this topic has gone... everywhere... so if possible I will find a bunch if the latest news on different things. like dark matter, strange matter, cerns new time travel discovery, anti matter, black holes, white holes, and the universe's shape.
Check my youtube channel out for lots of cool gaming related videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/xXzman9000Xx