Golden Sun BYOND

[Kioll]

If I put a reflect power in, it would never be a full-power reflect.  As most reflections are imperfect and energy reflected goes every direction, pretty much, half strength would be the max I'd use.

[Misery]

Taking my time to look through this a little closer and write down what I think. It looks like Role had almost exactly the same idea of how to approach this as I did, more specifically, give all builds the option to choose between all four elements. I'm thinking class and equipment builds should be related though, this helps in making classes more unique, and there's no good reason for your mage to equip a giant sword anyway.

I also agree that there should be Agility based attack skills, but usable exclusively by the "Stealth" build in place of Attack based skills.

Choosing between two types of psynergy (such as plant/stone for Venus) is another interesting idea that I also think you should include, giving the different types something to set them apart from each other of course. The Djinn rank suggestion is a great way to make the system more balanced, and I hadn't thought of that one at all.

I'm with pretty much everyone else here on having stats for increasing/reducing psynergy damage. While there is none in GS, I doubt players would mind the power of their damaging psynergy actually scaling with level like attack does. I suggest you call them Power and Resist (most people do), those are nice, simple and self explanatory names.

While I'm at it, a simple damage formula for the new stats. As you can see, it's the exact same formula used for normal attack damage, with a multiplier thrown in for the damage penalty of psynergy that hits more than one opponent.
Damage = ((((P - R) / 2) + B) * M) + N
P = Power of caster
R = Resist of target
B = Base damage of attack
M = Multiplier for area reduction (> 0, <= 1)
N = Random number between 0 and 3

To continue with this, below is a basic outline of how the four character builds you suggested at first could be done in a way that is close to the GS class system while remaining balanced, i.e. gives you incentive to pick any of the four builds. I've tried to make decisions based on my observations of the GS class system in favor of what I would've preferred myself.

Note that GS originally only has two builds, fighter and mage. Venus/Mars adepts are fighters while Jupiter/Mercury adepts are mages. This is another reason Piers sucks.

This will require a full set of classes for each of the four character builds, although in practice they will only be half sets due to Venus/Mars and Mercury/Jupiter sharing class builds in GS.
If healing is based on Power, casters and healers will both end up with killer spells and godly healing, which is the main reason I say there are only two builds in GS. Instead, I think each build should have its own list of healing psynergy (Pure Wish when used by a fighter would heal significantly less than when used by a healer).

First off, equipment that can be used by any build:
Clothing, gauntlets, caps/hats, boots, shirts and rings are available to everyone.
Male characters can equip light armor, female characters can equip dresses.
Stealth build characters cannot equip light armor or dresses.

Damaging, healing and status psynergy is available to all builds (but depends on class).
Healer builds of all elements get target one and target all healing in their base elemental class line.

Fighter
Gear: heavy armor, shield, helmet
Weapons: longsword, short sword, axe, mace
Psynergy: weak
Healing: weak
Abilities: attacking skills, buffs
Class bonus: none

+high Attack, Defense and HP
-low PP and Power

comments: Reliable damage dealers and boss killers with good all around stats, but are the least suited to casting psynergy out of the four builds.

Caster
Gear: armlet, circlet
Weapons: staff, ankh, bow, short sword
Psynergy: strong
Healing: medium
Abilities: attacking skills, offensive buffs/debuffs
Class bonus: none

+high PP, Power and Agility
-low HP and Defense

comments: The focus of this build is to do elemental damage. Their high PP allows them to use attack skills more often than fighters, and they have access to a wide range of support abilities.

Healer
Gear: armlet, circlet
Weapons: staff, ankh, mace
Psynergy: medium
Healing: strong
Abilities: defensive buffs/debuffs
Class bonus: Luck +5

+high PP, Resist and Luck
-low Attack, no attack skills

comments: A more defensive caster build, their Resist protects them from elemental damage and their Luck makes them less susceptible to status effects. While it's a good support build, healers themselves have no effective way to do damage. They start out with extra Luck, since it's a stat that doesn't increase with level.

Stealth
Gear: none
Weapons: short sword, staff, bow
Psynergy: medium
Healing: weak
Abilities: speciality psynergy, Agility based attack skills, debuffs, Avoid, Retreat
Class bonus: increased first strike chance, reduced risk of ambush

+high Agility and Luck
-other stats are average to low

comments: This is the build that currently doesn't have any real equivalent in GS. They can do damage by Agility based skills or psynergy, but it's more of a utility build and usually takes on a supporting role in combat, using their wide selection of special skills. If there are any unusual abilities, characters of this build will be the first in line to get it (i.e. they have a few exclusive skills). That's my take on this anyway, a build that attempts to be unique without being overspecialized (since in the GS class system, everyone  can do everything). I've suggested here that they start with Retreat and Avoid (both would be non-elemental), since they go along with the theme and are mainly convenience skills anyway.

Note: I've written all of this in a rather definite form, but it's really just suggestions. Most of it isn't just my own ideas either. But it's easier to continue if you can state which parts you agree with and not.

[Rolina]

@Kio:  Sorry for the late reply, and I'm sorry I've been coming across that way, but... In my defense, the reason I stop contributing is because I don't understand what exactly it is you're trying to do.  So instead of being a @#$%& about it, I decided to wait and see it first hand so I get that "OH!  That's what he meant!" moment.  I don't mean to insult you or call your ideas bad or anything, I just don't quite understand what you mean by them, and can't quite comprehend how they'd work.  So I'm just going to wait until I can actually see it.

I didn't mean to offend, so if I did, I'm really sorry.

[Kioll]

So, over the past few days I've been considering how I'm going to code battle mechanics.  I've found a few things to make the game work more like the original games...  The major difference, if all goes according to plan, will be the added mechanic of the mouse in certain places; the game will not be entirely keyboard run, at least at first.  Also, I have no way of spinning the battle field like the games do, so you'll always be looking at your character from behind while fighting.  I'm going to try and add in more keyboard macros to use with it once I figure out how to make them work.  Once I do, though, it will end up being, hopefully, much more true to the games...  I'm also considering using some of the Dark Dawn menu mechanics for a more streamlined appearance, although it will probably be a blend of old and new, when it comes to the menus.  That said, progress is slow at the moment, seeing as I'm the only one working on it.  But I've managed to set up the code and do enough research and planning to know that this game is entirely plausible.  Also, I've been testing a Sneak character in TLA, basically taking powers from various different classes and piling them together along with a couple of Djinn effects.  This class seems to fare in the just-below-average area.  If anyone else cares to test this character type, I can offer a setup...  Depending on how you want to test, you can change or add things, but that's up to you.

Class Level 1
HP 90%  PP 130%  Attack 80%  Defense 90%  Agility 140%  Luck 110%
Class Level 2
HP 100%  PP 140%  Attack 90%  Defense 100%  Agility 150%  Luck 110%
Class Level 1
HP 110%  PP 150%  Attack 100%  Defense 110%  Agility 160%  Luck 110%
Class Level 1
HP 120%  PP 160%  Attack 110%  Defense 120%  Agility 180%  Luck 110%
Class Level 1
HP 140%  PP 180%  Attack 130%  Defense 140%  Agility 210%  Luck 110%

(Yes, I know the agility is very high, but being as the character is otherwise fairly fragile...  Also, this is just playtesting, nothing decided for sure.)

2 sets of Battle Psynergy from your chosen element, one being fairly strong and high-cost, the other the opposite
1 set of Buff/Debuff or Healing Psynergy of your chosen element, plus other psynergies as you see fit...
1 Psynergy with Haze's effect (also with the Cloak utility, albeit it is essentially a useless psynergy in TLA)
1 Psynergy with Swift Strike's effect.
1 Psynergy with Back Stab's effect.
1 Psynergy with Kite's effect

Put these at appropriate levels with appropriate class levels, and you'll basically have what I've been testing.  If more people can help to test this setup, the feedback will help me make adjustments for its playability.

Now, my last comment is aimed at you, Role...  First off, I accept your apology, thank you.  Secondly, please, don't call me Kio.  Third and final; you wanted to play and see whether or not the Sneak idea would work.  This is your chance.  Be aware, of course, that it will be adjusted as necessary, but this covers pretty much everything I wanted to do with the character; and being that backstab already exists, I won't need to make that two-turn psynergy.  So, tell me how it works for you.

Realize, everyone, that this character setup is built to be usable by a single character, with or without a party, more likely without a party for the majority of the time, and keep in mind as well that the majority of the sneak, as I have it standing now, is going to be built mostly on the sub-psynergies you choose; meaning that only about a quarter of the psynergies are specific to the Sneak build.  Everything else you have is either based on your element and psynergy decisions, or earned through whatever quests or training you might go through to get it.

[Rolina]

First, I nickname everyone.  You're no exception here.

Second, I'm gonna need to actually play it, as I said earlier.  What you put down on paper, and what winds up existing in practice, are often two very very different things.  On top of that, just telling me that won't work, because my approach to it is... vastly different than yours.  So even if I try to follow it, I'll very likely wind up making a class that works quite differently from what you were intending, due to my personal trends of balance.

Rather than risk getting a bad opinion based on inaccurate representation, as I've said before, I'm gonna wait for you to actually come out with the first playable model.  That way I know what you intended, not what I guess you intended.  You okay with that?

[Kain]

I nickname everyone.  You're no exception here.

When he first joined, he asked to NOT be called that.

November 23, 2011, 02:11:38 AM - Kioll - Who are Kyon and Haruhi?  And please, not Kio.  I had a friend who named their kid that, and that kid was a nightmare....

[Durza]

First, I nickname everyone.

Sad face.

Anywho, I'd say that 170% for the fourth class and 180% for the fifth would be more than enough. Considering that this would be a class on an already (I'm assuming) fast character, though I guess it wouldn't make much difference. 140% on a starting class, on the other hand, might.

[Kioll]

I will take that into consideration.  I'll test it out and see how the character fares solo on a lower setting for Agility...  Because that's the main reason the Agility was spiked up, so that it wouldn't die on solo.

[Kioll]

I have an update for everyone.  I've made a few discoveries and some decisions about the GS BYOND system that I wanted to share.  I know I haven't made an update on this thread in a while, but my life's been kinda hectic lately, so my sincerest apologies.

I have come up with 5 class builds, along with their implementation in the game.  Note that these names will apply to all elements, denoting the element of the character before or after the name of the class.  These are the base classes, before Djinn are applied.

Squire - This class has the highest attack power of any base class, making it an ideal hack and slash character.  Its defense and HP are low, however its limited healing skills allow the Squire to keep itself alive.

Guard - This class has the greatest defensive skill, along with the highest HP, making it an ideal tank.  Relying on its own physical toughness for survival, he's still a fighter and as such, can hold his own in combat.

Urchin - This class focuses on speed and stealth to survive.  While they have the highest speed, their attack, defense, PP, and HP are mid-level, mediocre at best.  The Urchin class relies on their first-strike speed to win their battles.

Novice - This healing class has relatively high PP so as to keep themselves and their party members alive.  Their stats are mid-ground, giving them survivability when in combination with their various healing and defensive Psynergies.

Mage (in the form of "(Element) User") - The highest PP of all of the base classes provides Mages with their strong offensive Psynergies, and their relatively high speed allows them to deal massive damage quickly, so as to survive in combat, because with their other stats so low, Mages can't take many hits before they're down.

Class changes according to the Djinn a player has Set will be based on their base class build rather than their element: this means that a Squire who adds a Djinni of their affiliated element (Mars with Venus, Mercury with Jupiter) will always become a Brute.

Each character will receive a number of Stat points which they can use to assign their base stats.  Once the base stats are assigned, they cannot be changed except by raising them with items.  There will be a limit to the number of times a stat can be raised so as to prevent abuse.

New psynergies will of course be added, and some classes will automatically learn some Psynergies at certain levels that, before, were obtainable only through items.  Urchins, for instance, will be able to Cloak themselves, both in and out of battle.

Also, I don't remember if I brought this up before or not, but I discovered a way to make the battle system the same as in the games, placing the battle over the map instead of in a separate window.  This will require that players see things only from behind their characters as opposed to being able to spin their battle window like in the original games, but it will nevertheless be far simpler and more visually appealing.

The game will likely have a day/night system, and possibly an in-game calendar (as in actual dates, time of day, months, years, etc.).  Beyond that, I really need some help.  I don't have enough hands to get all of this done by myself.  I may post class stats later, once I have everything worked out.

[Griever]

Novice - This healing class has relatively high PP so as to keep themselves and their party members alive.  Their stats are mid-ground, giving them survivability when in combination with their various healing and defensive Psynergies.

Shouldn't this be called acolyte then? Acolyte = novice cleric ....

[Kioll]

I don't know, I think Novice sounds a little more generic, and it was a reference to the Catholic church, sorta.  Monks and Nuns who haven't taken their vows yet are Novices.

[Rolina]

I agree with Griever, though for a different reason.  I think classes with a basis of other classes should have a name similar to them.  Otherwise, I'd feel like protesting Guard and Squire, since those are mars and venus classlines.

[Kioll]

At the moment, it's a working title anyways.  I have no idea how many of these names will make it to the final version.  That said, part of my idea for the naming scheme actually came from Dark Dawn's naming Amiti's class "Aqua Squire".  Thus, "Earth Squire" would be how I'd denote the original "Squire" class.  "Flame Guard" would be the original Guard class, etc.

Also, I have an idea I'd like to get opinions on.  Since part of the original game involves being able to adjust djinn and change classes for each character based on the djinn you have in your party, but a lot of the MMO will involve solo play, I'm considering an idea I just came up with, allowing the character to carry more djinn than they're using.  This would allow them to change the djinn they're using to allow for different summons, classes, etc.  Instead of just the 9 djinn they're using, in this case, players would be able to carry somewhere between 14 and 18 djinn total, however only 9 could be active.  Djinn sets could only be changed outside of battle, possibly only by the help of an NPC, I'm not sure.

I am also considering having players able to name their djinn, allowing for more uniquity.  Thoughts?

[Tetsuya the Azure Blade]

Perhaps the player could have like a house or a home base: A place where the player spawns when she or he starts the game after they make their character. The home base would have various different features, like djinni and item storage, the ability to order items (item creation) and such. The player would start off with the spare room in the local pub, but can upgrade to a house and even a mansion later in the game.

That is my idea, that it is.

[Misery]

If you're controlling just a single character...
It's going to change the game a lot not being able to give inputs for the whole party when you team up, and some classes are worse off solo than others. Have you thought about that?

For the djinn, you'd normally trade them with other people to change class, so how about trading djinn with NPCs?

[Rolina]

Umm, Sala already came up with the djinn bank idea.  Just use that.  People will pick djinn based on their target build, as well as what abilities they have.  You'd have to unlock "djinn slots" though, for balancing sake.  So, let's say that for every tenth level, you get another djinn slot.  That could work.

[Tetsuya the Azure Blade]

Umm, Sala already came up with the djinn bank idea.  Just use that.  People will pick djinn based on their target build, as well as what abilities they have.  You'd have to unlock "djinn slots" though, for balancing sake.  So, let's say that for every tenth level, you get another djinn slot.  That could work.

Uhh, I might've missed that, I DID have to go my cousin Shohei's funeral (and then I stayed at Yuuichi's flat (Flat means apartment, to you Americans/Canadians/Whoever else says apartment) for a bit) because he was hit by a car and died, that he did.

And, to quote myself:

The home base would have various different features, like djinni and item storage, the ability to order items (item creation) and such.

Tha means that the home base would do more than just store your djinn, you can also order items from the item creation people, and do other stuff as well.

[Kioll]

Djinn trading was going to be involved anyways, and yes, I have already thought about how different classes will fare in solo.  The idea behind holding extra djinn is so that players can change their classes to reflect the battles they will have...  The only other thing I can think of instead is that players can trade djinn with their party members, and when the party is disbanded, they get their own djinn back.  Also, maybe not a home base, but a home town for sure.  I don't know about storing things there, though.

Edit: I have something to share.  This should clear up the questions about most of the classes.  I have uploaded an IPS file to share what the base classes for GS BYOND will be like.  Please note that these are mostly approximations as I can only do so much, but they are GOOD approximations.  So, have fun with Knight's Emblem.

[Kioll]

Alright.  I have an update on a finalized class system.  I have dropped the number of builds to 4.  And no, I didn't drop the stealth build, Role...

My next demo will feature the new class system, but I plan to outline it here for everyone.  However, I wish to note that the only multi-elemental classes that will be available will be symbiotic elements; there will be no Mars-Jupiter and things like that.  And no tri-elemental classes...  Mostly because I won't have room.

I have discovered that other than the Agility stat, Guard and Squire are mostly the same, with their ATK and DEF swapped.  This has led me to the decision that both of them will be part of the same basic class.  And now what you're all waiting for: I'll shut up and get on with it.

Fighter - This includes the Squire, Guard, Warrior, and Mariner (To Be Renamed) class series'.
Mage - This includes the Wind Seer class, and the elemental variations thereof.
Healer - This includes the Water Seer class, and the elemental variations thereof.
Sneak - This includes the Urchin class, and the elemental variations thereof.

Note that Flame User is not listed.  Flame User is none of the above, being some weird mix of Fighter and Mage, with a bit of Healer.  Because of this, the Flame User class will be in its own category, along with certain elemental variations.  These variations will have the most changes between them, as the item which bestows this class will have a unique effect for each element of Adept: each will have unique psynergies and stats provided ONLY to those classes.  In other words, 3 brand new classes with unique styles.  And don't knock the classes until you've tried them.  I will provide a link to the demo when it's ready.

[Kioll]

Okay, so it's been a while and I'm double posting...  Again.  But since it's been over half a year, I feel justified in doing so.  So I've been unable to work on all of this for a while with very good reason, but I've recently learned a few things which have given me hope in getting restarted on this project.

So for one, turns out my problems with graphics are fixable, insofar as the following is *now* true:  I can change the default tile size in how BYOND sees icons.  This means that I can take the normally much-too-small pre-existing icons, and use them at their current size without affecting how the player sees the game.  This means all I have to do is pull apart the existing icons and let players use their favorite clothes and hairstyles, and let them choose the color of those.  So customized icons no longer require another person to create.  It requires a bit of patience is all.

Also, I've finally realized, and about time, that there are 3 characters with run icons, not just 2.  Jenna has it.  This means I'll probably take Isaac and Jenna as base icons for the two genders, and let everyone modify themselves from there.

A few wonderful realizations about the nature of BYOND code (as of my most recent explorations) reveals a way for me to make a list of classes and such so that classes are as dynamic as the original games.  And I plan on including all of the original classes and then some.  Also, I've decided on a new customization system for classes.  Instead of the idea I originally had of letting players design their own classes to an extent, players will pick an existing class for their character.  Upon level up, when a character would learn a new technique, they will be given a choice between different techniques available to that class with similar power levels.  This means that, if you prefer to play a Squire without any "stone" techniques, all you have to do is choose the techniques that match that idea.

So, I'd like to point out that, for about another month, month and a half, I'll be able to do only minimal work on this project, but I haven't quit.  And with the way this is starting to look, I think it'll be a game worth being proud of.  So I'd like to open this back up for comments and suggestions.  Also, I plan on making a "home" feature.  Players will be able to buy a home, share it with others, possibly even create NPC's (i.e. a spouse, a parent, children, etc.) to live in it, so we'll see how that goes.  Anyone got any comments?