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Golden Sun BYOND

Started by Kioll, 21, November, 2011, 04:19:34 PM

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Kioll

Like I was saying, I want to make a base class for each combination of role/build/whatever you want to call it and element.  Although I suppose just giving each build a base class and having that base class in each element would be somewhat easier, it loses something, I suppose.  I'm not really sure what it is that's lost, I just know something's missing.
I am the almighty emissary of fire...  the Mars Adept Kioll.  Oh, and did I mention that I'll see you long before you see me?

Rolina

Well, I'm advising against that, really.  Instead, try this:

4 elements
4 builds (attacker, defender, wizard, healer)
3 stat layouts (for each build)
3 spell layouts (again, for each build and element)

Now, this leads to a form of simplicity, but also adds a nice variety to the game.  You have the four elements and four builds you wanted.  That's great, so it's not too complex.  Three stat layouts per build allows for a bit more customization.  Maybe I want to be a faster attacker, maybe I want a bit more defense, or maybe I wanna be somewhere in between.

Then you have spells.  Who says I want to use Stone as a venusian?  Screw quake, I want Growth!  What's wrong with a plant-based spell lineup?  Who says I want to use Ice as a mercurian?  Maybe I want to be a water specialist instead.  There's two solid, undisputed forms for each element.  They are:

Venus:  Stone and Plant
Mars:  Flame and Blast
Jupiter:  Wind and Lightning
Mercury:  Water and Ice

The three options?  Specialist for form A (Like Isaac), specialist for form B (Like Sveta), or someone who uses a bit of both (Like Ivan).

So it stays rather simple, but not everyone is exactly the same for those classes.  Get what I'm trying to say now?  You don't have to be doing all of that, you can keep the four you were aiming for, but also allow for some versatility.

Afterall, unlike most MMOs, a GS mmo won't allow for something important - build variance.  Look at WoW and stuff like that - you have power and branches that you improve and focus in.  GS doesn't allow for such a thing, so you have to have a different way of doing that.  That is done in two ways - initial stat and spell lines allow for a class variance, which is the first way to do it.  The other way is equipment and djinn - add a nice variety to encourage many different play styles.

Kioll

Well, as I stated before, the second build isn't so much about defense as it is about evasion.  Anyways, stat layouts aren't really going to be an issue.  Like I said, my plan, at the moment, is to let people choose their two best stats, depending on build of course.  Like a fighter won't get an option for a high PP, but High HP, Attack, Defense, and Agility are all viable options.  As for the spell layouts, I suppose that is a viable option, and could help cause different class setups.  And since I'm on the topic, I may make secondary class traits be a later choice...  I know Felix, Isaac, and Piers all start out as Combat Medics, but that doesn't mean that the MMO should have things work that way...  It's something to keep in mind, I suppose.
I am the almighty emissary of fire...  the Mars Adept Kioll.  Oh, and did I mention that I'll see you long before you see me?

Aile~♥

@Role: Yes, everyone can cast spells. The difference is that Fighters have lower PP pools, but also less costly, lower-power spells. A Caster has high PP, and higher cost/higher power spells to go with. Thus, a Fighter/Caster has the low PP and high Attack of the Fighter, and the high-power/high-cost spells of the Caster. The character's focus is thus on dealing as much damage as possible in the shortest amount of time as possible, with no thought to conserving PP, and little defensive ability. Prefers questing in groups, so that it can conserve its limited PP for the boss fight.
[sprite=16, 6, 0]:P[/sprite]

Lloyd: Easy as pie.
Genis: Sweet!
Presea: ...Sweetie pie...
Zelos: Let's not start on this again...

[spoiler=epic mindscrew][/spoiler]

Kioll

Also, a Fighter/Caster solo would require a lot of psycrystals and similar PP regen items and gear, leaving them unable to go for a lot of the "better" gear
I am the almighty emissary of fire...  the Mars Adept Kioll.  Oh, and did I mention that I'll see you long before you see me?

Rolina

...Uh, what?  Did I miss something?  Why are we talking about how fighters have lower PP?  No duh, I said that myself last page.  Also, Kioll, there is no evasion stat in golden sun.

Kioll

No, but there is agility.  And adding a simple line of code saying that agility can allow you to dodge an attack...  Isn't hard.  Also, Jamie was referring to an earlier part of the conversation.

Edit:  Actually, I might make it a function of agility + defense / 2
I am the almighty emissary of fire...  the Mars Adept Kioll.  Oh, and did I mention that I'll see you long before you see me?

Rolina

Oh, so not referring to me.  I was all O.o at that, since that's basically what I said earlier.

I also... kinda disapprove of your idea of speed=evasion.  That could seriously break the game.

Kioll

I thought about that basically right after I said it, thus the edit.  Also, if nothing else, I can add an evasion stat.  It really isn't that hard.  After all, this is completely from the ground up, remember?
I am the almighty emissary of fire...  the Mars Adept Kioll.  Oh, and did I mention that I'll see you long before you see me?

Rolina

That's still pretty overpowered.  I think it's a better idea to have them be the attackers, and fighters be defenders.

Kioll

Dunno yet, Jiten...  And I don't see how evasion is overpowered when it's applied to all combatants...  Also, evasion wouldn't work if you're defending anyways, just so you know, since you're focusing on absorbing the damage instead of hiding from it.  Enemies get evasion too, ya know.  Just some characters are better at it than others.
I am the almighty emissary of fire...  the Mars Adept Kioll.  Oh, and did I mention that I'll see you long before you see me?

Aile~♥

@Role: Actually, I was referring to what you said... two pages ago? Somewhere like that. Where you said that a Fighter/Caster wouldn't really work because everyone can cast. The difference isn't in the casting ability, but in the styles of Psynergy they get. While a straight Fighter would get moves more based on their utility, a Caster gets Psynergy both for practicality and pure damage. A Fighter/Caster, however, gets Psynergy strictly oriented towards a high-damage offense.

How so? It makes the Agility stat actually useful for something. I think making evasion only a /2 really wouldn't work. Actually, maybe (Attacker's Agility)/(0.5 x Attacker's Level) - Target's Luck (or similar) would work better?
[sprite=16, 6, 0]:P[/sprite]

Lloyd: Easy as pie.
Genis: Sweet!
Presea: ...Sweetie pie...
Zelos: Let's not start on this again...

[spoiler=epic mindscrew][/spoiler]

Misery

I for one would like to see Agility being a little more useful, as long as there is a stat to counter evasion as well (something like attack vs agility), although maybe you shouldn't decide on it in such an early stage. But as you can see, you're already starting to deter from the GS battle system where hit/miss has a preset chance. I think the health of the game should take priority even if you want to stay true to the original, GS as it is isn't very balanced.

Quote from: Jiten on 22, November, 2011, 08:19:42 PM
Do you plan to have an easter egg or two occur ?
You don't plan easter eggs, they're the least important part of a game.

Kioll

Rofl, Jamie, I said defense + agility divided by 2.  Average the stats together, lol.  And to be fair, agility is only slightly underused in the games.  It does, after all, determine order of attack...
I am the almighty emissary of fire...  the Mars Adept Kioll.  Oh, and did I mention that I'll see you long before you see me?

Rolina

#54
Quote from: JamietheFlameUser on 22, November, 2011, 08:45:11 PM
@Role: Actually, I was referring to what you said... two pages ago? Somewhere like that. Where you said that a Fighter/Caster wouldn't really work because everyone can cast. The difference isn't in the casting ability, but in the styles of Psynergy they get. While a straight Fighter would get moves more based on their utility, a Caster gets Psynergy both for practicality and pure damage. A Fighter/Caster, however, gets Psynergy strictly oriented towards a high-damage offense.

How so? It makes the Agility stat actually useful for something. I think making evasion only a /2 really wouldn't work. Actually, maybe (Attacker's Agility)/(0.5 x Attacker's Level) - Target's Luck (or similar) would work better?
I said that a true-to-form hybrid build can't really exist, since by technicality even fighters gets caster-style spells in GS.  With that in mind, you may as well not try - now, there are things like the Squire and Justice which are close, but they're still clearly one or the other.

@Agility:  I don't see why we can't have some attacks use this as their source of power.  Speed-style attacks, in other words.  You know Vorpal Slash, Swift Sword, and that double slash thing from the bandit's sword?  I could see those being converted to use AGL instead of ATK as their attack stat.  I think that'd be a much better approach to it, rather than some attempt at evasion.


Look at it this way:

Fighter:  The Tank, their main stats are HP, ATK, and DEF
Sneak:  The Attacker, their main stats are HP, ATK, and AGL
Wizard:  The offensive caster, their main stats are PP and AGL
Healer:  The defensive caster, their main stats are PP and LUK

Kioll

The point of the sneak, though, is that they don't have exceptional attack OR HP.  They only survive BECAUSE they evade, and I think that's the point that you're missing Role.  Don't get me wrong, I like your ideas, but it doesn't seem as though you're giving my ideas a chance...
I am the almighty emissary of fire...  the Mars Adept Kioll.  Oh, and did I mention that I'll see you long before you see me?

Rolina

The point you're missing is that that doesn't work in golden sun.  I am offering alternatives that will.

Kioll

I understand that it doesn't work in Golden Sun canon.  But this ISN'T canon.  And as earlier pointed out, tweaking is necessary, especially to work on BYOND.  Besides, the stats used in the game are only necessarily applicable to characters and NPC's who fight.  And as I've already pointed out that I intend to introduce new types of characters, it follows that new mechanics need to be introduced to make those characters plausible.  I said I wanted to be as close to the original as I could, not be a clone of it.
I am the almighty emissary of fire...  the Mars Adept Kioll.  Oh, and did I mention that I'll see you long before you see me?

Rolina

...Well, you've lost me.  I really don't get much about this right now.  I can understand adding a magic attack and defense stat, but this... I dunno.  I'm not really sure it's a good idea.  You're adamant on it, so from now you'll get to do whatever, but... I really don't know about the concept of a blink tank in golden sun.  It's not something I associate with the series.

So... yeah, I guess I'll pop in once you get some more solid examples and a bit of a game build set up, but right now I'm just gonna direct you to Leaf to figure out how to pull off this evasion thing.  Once I get a working example and see how it fits in, I can make a better suggestion for it, but... right now, I've got nothing, I'm rather unfamiliar with that style of build.

Kioll

Solid example of my current plan for the gameplay mechanics incorporating evasion into the process of attacking:

When a physical attack is dealt, the first thing the game checks for as it stands originally is whether or not the defensive power of the other character is strong enough to withstand the attack.  This will still be there, but I will add something in front of it.

A character will either have a percentage chance to evade based on Agility or a unique Evasion stat, or the code will include a speed for each specific attack, altered by the user's agility.  If the evading character has a speed higher than that of the attack, then they'd dodge.  I'm not sure which mechanic will be used, but either have essentially the same effect:  Characters have a chance to dodge an incoming attack instead of sitting there and hoping that they don't take too much damage.  Of course, the chance of specific characters being able to accomplish this varies on which mechanic is used, but that is what playtesting is for.
I am the almighty emissary of fire...  the Mars Adept Kioll.  Oh, and did I mention that I'll see you long before you see me?