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Author Topic: Camelot insulted us  (Read 19679 times)
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« on: 28, August, 2013, 04:52:20 PM »

First of all, I'm sorry, English is not my main language.

Golden Sun: The Broken Seal and Golden Sun: The Lost Age are two of my favorites RPGs.

Golden Sun have generic but well managed history, exploits at the maximum the graphic capacity of the GBA and the soundtrack is composed by the talented Motoi Sakuraba. But, if i like Golden Sun is due the game system, a game with many possibilities in the customization of your character in class (stats and powers), with dozens of viable strategies to fight enemies.

I was waiting for Golden Sun 3 for a long time...
I was surfing the net to find news about Golden Sun, i did that during years almost each week.
At some point, i stopped, i didn't expected Camelot to create a Golden Sun 3.
For that reason the trailer of the E3 was a big surprise for me, i was really excited.

However, Golden Sun: Dark Dawn was far bellow of my . Graphics and Soundtrack are acceptable, some people dont like Dark Dawn Graphics because they look Cartoonish and some people dont like at all the Dark Dawn soundtrack (even being composed by Motoi Sakuraba).
But i dont care much about that. Dark Dawn history it doents like a Golden Sun sequel, it looks like a spin-off of low quality.
I could write an entire page of things that i dislike of the Dark Dawn history, but English is not my main language, I'm going to skip this point.
Dark Dawn have the same system of Golden Sun GBA, but is TOO EASY. Dark Dawn should be a synonymous of easy.

I know, Golden Sun GBA did not have a great history.
I know, Golden Sun GBA was a relatively easy game.
There was an opportunity of changing that, it was Golden Sun Dark Dawn. But they did it worst.

Also, one of the things that make me angry... is the absence of a multiplayer mode. Maybe Wi-Fi connection was too much for ask. but they could add at least local connection. There are much games that use Wi-Fi, even shooters, it cant be that hard to add that to a turn based game...

I refuse to consider Dark Dawn part of Golden Sun.

I was waiting for Golden Sun 3 for a long time.
And i keep waiting for Golden Sun 3.
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« Reply #1 on: 28, August, 2013, 07:55:41 PM »

Graphical issues aren't that it's cartoony.  The originals were as well.  The issue is the tone and aesthetic - the original games were quite bright with colors and had this "pop" to them, so to speak.  They also had amazing particle effects in battle, and it was quite great to look at.  That's all but gone, though.  Sure, DD has great battle models and really cool GUI icons, but the actual GUI layout, the spell effects, and the overworld just... they don't look nearly as good, clean, and crisp.  Instead, they have this "watered down" feel, the GUI layout is just plain horrible (XMB, anyone?), and the battle effects... well, they just don't have the flair the particle effect-heavy first games had.  To top it off, the sound effects in the game were absolutely horrible.  All and all, it betrays the original aesthetics of the game, which is why people didn't like that.

Musically, Motoi Sakuraba is hit and miss.  The original GS games were mostly a hit, though a couple tracks were kind of "meh".  However, DD was somewhat even on the hit and miss spectrum - for every great song there was another that was either "Meh" or "uggh...".  I kindly point in the direction of Mountain Roc Rising and the Final Battle Themes (which were horrible) and contrast with the Final Dungeon and Endless Wall themes (which were awesome).  Hell, even within songs you have instances of great and bad music.  The Tuaparang Battle Theme has a great chorus, but the rest of the song kind of sucks.

The relative ease of the game is three-fold.  First is bad pacing.  You just get access to djinn much too quickly, and thus your power multiplies far past anything the enemies can keep up with.  Second is bad growth rates.  Enemies just give too much experience, so that additive growth in combination with the multiplier growth that comes with djinn acquisition compounds the problem.  Third is weak enemies.  Some bosses can't even survive a single round (4/5 turns) of the Djinn Build/Summon tactic, which usually takes them down in two (8-10 turns).  

As for multiplayer... yeah, that did kind of suck, but sit down and think about this for a second... would you really want multiplayer for Dark Dawn?  Everyone has max speed thanks to Zol Gear, has an unleash setup utilizing Centurian rushes, etc...  It doesn't make for very much fun when you have a game as broken as DD's battle system.  Perhaps we're better off not having it than having them butcher it too.

Finally, like it or not, DD is a part of GS.  You can't just throw it into fanon discontinuity, because the next game will likely have direct references to the events in this one.  It's like Suikoden IV or Battle Network 4 - they're actually pretty bad games, but they're still a part of the franchise, and the franchise as a whole, despite suffering through the game, may even have benefited by learning what not to do.   The fundaments are here to stay, but since the game never bothered to define them, we have the freedom to define them how we please until it's proven otherwise.  So for now, perhaps you can embrace the Aspect Approach that I champion.  This lets you use the stuff from Dark Dawn without any of that annoying lore-breaking stuff.
« Last Edit: 28, August, 2013, 07:58:58 PM by Rolina » Logged

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« Reply #2 on: 28, August, 2013, 09:52:51 PM »

DD isn't an insult. It's just not for fans of the previous installments in the series.
I don't actually think it's bad as a game. But it's pretty terrible as a JRPG.
Reading an interview with the Takahashi brothers (i.e. the people who came up with Golden Sun) about DD is what made me make up my mind on this - they did exactly what they were trying to do. They just focused on all the wrong things. I hope they don't make another Golden Sun game, because it's probably going to be similar to DD.

I think their biggest mistakes were 1: dropping the old plotline and 2: mindlessly copying the battle/class system from the previous games.

1 - TLA had an open ending and several loose threads, which I guess is one of the reasons many anticipated a sequel - DD just threw that story aside and started a completely new one, which feels rushed in spite of the fairly long development time of the game.

2 - The class system was interesting, but could've used some more development - they basically made a carbon copy of it and dropped the few extra item classes that added extra variety. The battle system was one of the defining aspects of Golden Sun, and they completely neglected it. I wouldn't have minded if they created an entirely different battle system, currently all the battles in DD feel like filler material.

Another thing that really bothered me about DD as opposed to GS/TLA is the NPCs. In the earlier games, they'd talk about random things, their daily life or anything else you'd expect them to have on their mind. In the later game, they all seem to be trying to nudge you in the right direction, they're all talking about the same things but with different words - it feels like they're trying to speak directly to the player, which is really immersion breaking.

Graphically, they restricted themselves to the limited 3D capabilites of the DS while the GBA used pre-rendered graphics from more capable systems. Having more animations in battle is kind of nice, but overall I'd say the GBA games beat the DS game in terms of visuals, which is pretty sad considering it's a less powerful system. I think Rolina pointed out the other flaws with the graphics fairly well. Many of the environments in DD do look pretty nice though, and the in-battle models are well made.
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« Reply #3 on: 29, August, 2013, 12:52:58 AM »

In my opinion the best thing that Camelot could about Golden Sun is creating a remake, it would contain the two games of GBA united but expanding the history and introducing new features, adding new cities, dungeons, bosses, psinergies, djinns and playable characters.

The other thing that could be fair, is another RPG, not a Golden Sun, but a game with similarities of the systems and references of the history of Golden Sun.
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« Reply #4 on: 29, August, 2013, 04:19:02 PM »

I don't know about that.  I don't have to much faith in Camelot right now - the quality of their games has been on the decline for a while.  And no, I'm not just saying that because "lolmariosports" - those very mario sports games have been going through that decline in quality.
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« Reply #5 on: 29, August, 2013, 06:57:48 PM »

Actually, if you look around and talk to people in Dark Dawn, they have a number of very interesting things to say. Especially if you use Spirit Sense on the graves in various towns. They reveal quite a bit of lore about the world that actually ties everything together fairly smoothly.

My biggest problem with Dark Dawn, actually, is the ridiculously long, boring, unskippable intro. And here I thought Tales of Symphonia had a long intro! That, and that the bosses have too low a defence stat, worse even than in TLA.

Also, for everything they got right in this game, they got other stuff wrong to go with. The new Unleash/Weapon experience system is great. But on the other hand, it encourages grinding, which will result in you being way overlevelled, especially with the weak enemies that grant too much EXP. Heck, just fighting everything in your path for the sake of watching the cool combat animations results in you being overlevelled!

A large part of the problem with Dark Dawn is that they listened to the fans, but overdid it. Many fans were complaining about the ridiculous encounter rate, so they did the standard fix: fewer encounters, more EXP per encounter, which increases the ability to flee from battles to save time. But the new 3D animations, the new unleash system, and the ability to fast-forward make it so that players won't want to flee from battles like they did before. And not only that, but fleeing seems to fail a lot more often in Dark Dawn, to the point where you waste less time just slaughtering the enemy than you do trying to flee.

Also, Himi is a problem just by herself. But ignoring her, graphics. The character models and animation work are very impressive, so it's a shame that the flinch animations on attacks are badly placed, and that the actual GFX and effect models look so terrible. (Looking at you, Supernova. Even though that little twinge in the air before it goes off is amazingly cool, it just makes the rest of the attack more underwhelming.)
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« Reply #6 on: 29, August, 2013, 07:35:46 PM »

Actually, if you look around and talk to people in Dark Dawn, they have a number of very interesting things to say. Especially if you use Spirit Sense on the graves in various towns. They reveal quite a bit of lore about the world that actually ties everything together fairly smoothly.
I can't really say anything against that, just saying how I remembered it. I guess the game wasn't that memorable, and now I only remember the things that annoyed me.

A large part of the problem with Dark Dawn is that they listened to the fans, but overdid it.
This makes it... a lot of times I've seen people either saying they did as they did because they were listening to the fans, or that they were trying too hard to please the fans, and I'm starting to get curious. Do fans actually have some kind of communication channel to the developers? Do the designers of GS read game balance or plot discussions on gaming boards and fansites? Do they read reviews by random gamers? Do they personally read fanmail and base their development plans on them? Did they have public polls where players could state their likes and dislikes about their games?

Sorry if this sounds like I'm trying to shoot down your statement, I really am genuinely curious about where this idea comes from (I don't really keep up to date with gaming news either). If it's actually true that they listen to their fans, I'm sure more than a few people have some stuff to say to them.
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« Reply #7 on: 29, August, 2013, 08:28:46 PM »

Also, Himi is a problem just by herself. But ignoring her, graphics. The character models and animation work are very impressive, so it's a shame that the flinch animations on attacks are badly placed, and that the actual GFX and effect models look so terrible. (Looking at you, Supernova. Even though that little twinge in the air before it goes off is amazingly cool, it just makes the rest of the attack more underwhelming.)
Himi? what is that? food?

Actually, my favorarite thing of Dark Dawn is that each djinn have his own design.
« Last Edit: 29, August, 2013, 08:35:33 PM by Raetah » Logged
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« Reply #8 on: 29, August, 2013, 08:38:23 PM »

Actually, if you look around and talk to people in Dark Dawn, they have a number of very interesting things to say. Especially if you use Spirit Sense on the graves in various towns. They reveal quite a bit of lore about the world that actually ties everything together fairly smoothly.
I can't really say anything against that, just saying how I remembered it. I guess the game wasn't that memorable, and now I only remember the things that annoyed me.

A large part of the problem with Dark Dawn is that they listened to the fans, but overdid it.
This makes it... a lot of times I've seen people either saying they did as they did because they were listening to the fans, or that they were trying too hard to please the fans, and I'm starting to get curious. Do fans actually have some kind of communication channel to the developers? Do the designers of GS read game balance or plot discussions on gaming boards and fansites? Do they read reviews by random gamers? Do they personally read fanmail and base their development plans on them? Did they have public polls where players could state their likes and dislikes about their games?

Sorry if this sounds like I'm trying to shoot down your statement, I really am genuinely curious about where this idea comes from (I don't really keep up to date with gaming news either). If it's actually true that they listen to their fans, I'm sure more than a few people have some stuff to say to them.

Well, I don't know anything in particular, but the changes they made certainly coincide with what I've seen from a number of commenters on Youtube, IGN, etc. And I know we've all seen about 30 billion bad fanfics featuring Light and Dark Adepts.
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« Reply #9 on: 29, August, 2013, 08:41:00 PM »

Actually, if you look around and talk to people in Dark Dawn, they have a number of very interesting things to say. Especially if you use Spirit Sense on the graves in various towns. They reveal quite a bit of lore about the world that actually ties everything together fairly smoothly.
I can't really say anything against that, just saying how I remembered it. I guess the game wasn't that memorable, and now I only remember the things that annoyed me.

A large part of the problem with Dark Dawn is that they listened to the fans, but overdid it.
This makes it... a lot of times I've seen people either saying they did as they did because they were listening to the fans, or that they were trying too hard to please the fans, and I'm starting to get curious. Do fans actually have some kind of communication channel to the developers? Do the designers of GS read game balance or plot discussions on gaming boards and fansites? Do they read reviews by random gamers? Do they personally read fanmail and base their development plans on them? Did they have public polls where players could state their likes and dislikes about their games?

Sorry if this sounds like I'm trying to shoot down your statement, I really am genuinely curious about where this idea comes from (I don't really keep up to date with gaming news either). If it's actually true that they listen to their fans, I'm sure more than a few people have some stuff to say to them.

Well, I don't know anything in particular, but the changes they made certainly coincide with what I've seen from a number of commenters on Youtube, IGN, etc. And I know we've all seen about 30 billion bad fanfics featuring Light and Dark Adepts.
Light and Dark Adepts... That was one of the worst aditions to Dark Dawn.
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« Reply #10 on: 30, August, 2013, 08:49:41 PM »

@Jamie:  Forgive my asking but... "Ability to Fast Forward"?  What are you talking about?  I don't recall anything of the sort.
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« Reply #11 on: 30, August, 2013, 09:40:17 PM »

I think that's his way of saying the battles end faster than the ones in the original GBA games. Rather than being an ability itself. Correct me if I'm wrong, since I haven't checked.
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« Reply #12 on: 30, August, 2013, 10:07:41 PM »

sad thing that, in the random battles, the only thing i did is pressing a lot the A button to beat enemies with normal attacks-unleashes.
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« Reply #13 on: 31, August, 2013, 12:54:20 AM »

@Jamie:  Forgive my asking but... "Ability to Fast Forward"?  What are you talking about?  I don't recall anything of the sort.

Pressing and holding A (or was it B?) makes attack, Unleash, Djinn, and Psynergy animations move faster and allows you to skip Summon animations.
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« Reply #14 on: 03, September, 2013, 08:54:18 PM »

That was true even in TLA.
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« Reply #15 on: 03, September, 2013, 09:23:26 PM »

Nope, TLA lets you skip parts of some animations, such as Megiddo, the Gaia series, and Summons, but it doesn't allow you to speed up Attack, and Djinn animations, or some Unleash animations. The ability to fast-forward every combat animation makes fighting battles a lot faster.
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« Reply #16 on: 03, September, 2013, 09:29:49 PM »

That was true even in TLA.
You could hold B to fast-forward through text, in and out of battle. Animations? I wish.
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« Reply #17 on: 03, September, 2013, 10:27:44 PM »

It did work on many animations, just as Jamie said.  This is something that didn't exist in TBS.  So... you could say that unlike the other changes, this is a natural progression of what was already happening.

I also don't disagree with the feature.  "Don't waste the player's time" is something I believe.  It's the other things that irk me in DD.
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« Reply #18 on: 03, September, 2013, 11:20:22 PM »

Exactly. But combine the increased ability to speed through battles, the decreased rate of successful fleeing, the really awesome attack animations, and the grinding-based unleash system, and you have a whole lot of players fighting every single battle in their path, when in TLA they would've just fled. This results in characters becoming very powerful very quickly.

And like has been happening the previous two games, the random encounter foes have slowly become weaker. In TBS, they were almost a threat. In TLA, they were basically just cannon-fodder for regular attack spam. In DD, they barely even manage that, as most of them go down in one hit from a regular attack.
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« Reply #19 on: 03, September, 2013, 11:25:31 PM »

Most players I know never ran from a TLA battle, nor a TBS battle, unless they were specifically trying to stay under a certain level.  I do agree with the enemy strength, though - the only decent enemy was the Great Dragon, and even he went down rather easy.
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