Golden Sun Hacking Community
April 20, 2018, 04:11:23 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
News:
 
  Home   Forum   DC Wiki Help Search Calendar Downloads Login Register  
Pages: [1] 2   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Camelot insulted us  (Read 8128 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Novice Member
*

Coins: 0
Offline Offline

Posts: 35

« on: August 28, 2013, 04:52:20 PM »

First of all, I'm sorry, English is not my main language.

Golden Sun: The Broken Seal and Golden Sun: The Lost Age are two of my favorites RPGs.

Golden Sun have generic but well managed history, exploits at the maximum the graphic capacity of the GBA and the soundtrack is composed by the talented Motoi Sakuraba. But, if i like Golden Sun is due the game system, a game with many possibilities in the customization of your character in class (stats and powers), with dozens of viable strategies to fight enemies.

I was waiting for Golden Sun 3 for a long time...
I was surfing the net to find news about Golden Sun, i did that during years almost each week.
At some point, i stopped, i didn't expected Camelot to create a Golden Sun 3.
For that reason the trailer of the E3 was a big surprise for me, i was really excited.

However, Golden Sun: Dark Dawn was far bellow of my . Graphics and Soundtrack are acceptable, some people dont like Dark Dawn Graphics because they look Cartoonish and some people dont like at all the Dark Dawn soundtrack (even being composed by Motoi Sakuraba).
But i dont care much about that. Dark Dawn history it doents like a Golden Sun sequel, it looks like a spin-off of low quality.
I could write an entire page of things that i dislike of the Dark Dawn history, but English is not my main language, I'm going to skip this point.
Dark Dawn have the same system of Golden Sun GBA, but is TOO EASY. Dark Dawn should be a synonymous of easy.

I know, Golden Sun GBA did not have a great history.
I know, Golden Sun GBA was a relatively easy game.
There was an opportunity of changing that, it was Golden Sun Dark Dawn. But they did it worst.

Also, one of the things that make me angry... is the absence of a multiplayer mode. Maybe Wi-Fi connection was too much for ask. but they could add at least local connection. There are much games that use Wi-Fi, even shooters, it cant be that hard to add that to a turn based game...

I refuse to consider Dark Dawn part of Golden Sun.

I was waiting for Golden Sun 3 for a long time.
And i keep waiting for Golden Sun 3.
Logged
View Profile
Rolina
The Fulminous Witch
Jupiter Clan

Template maker turned lurker

Alchemist
*

Coins: 10
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
I am: wondering if we can get our clan position changed...
Clan Position: Grand Overlady of Jupiter
Posts: 6051

« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2013, 07:55:41 PM »

Graphical issues aren't that it's cartoony.  The originals were as well.  The issue is the tone and aesthetic - the original games were quite bright with colors and had this "pop" to them, so to speak.  They also had amazing particle effects in battle, and it was quite great to look at.  That's all but gone, though.  Sure, DD has great battle models and really cool GUI icons, but the actual GUI layout, the spell effects, and the overworld just... they don't look nearly as good, clean, and crisp.  Instead, they have this "watered down" feel, the GUI layout is just plain horrible (XMB, anyone?), and the battle effects... well, they just don't have the flair the particle effect-heavy first games had.  To top it off, the sound effects in the game were absolutely horrible.  All and all, it betrays the original aesthetics of the game, which is why people didn't like that.

Musically, Motoi Sakuraba is hit and miss.  The original GS games were mostly a hit, though a couple tracks were kind of "meh".  However, DD was somewhat even on the hit and miss spectrum - for every great song there was another that was either "Meh" or "uggh...".  I kindly point in the direction of Mountain Roc Rising and the Final Battle Themes (which were horrible) and contrast with the Final Dungeon and Endless Wall themes (which were awesome).  Hell, even within songs you have instances of great and bad music.  The Tuaparang Battle Theme has a great chorus, but the rest of the song kind of sucks.

The relative ease of the game is three-fold.  First is bad pacing.  You just get access to djinn much too quickly, and thus your power multiplies far past anything the enemies can keep up with.  Second is bad growth rates.  Enemies just give too much experience, so that additive growth in combination with the multiplier growth that comes with djinn acquisition compounds the problem.  Third is weak enemies.  Some bosses can't even survive a single round (4/5 turns) of the Djinn Build/Summon tactic, which usually takes them down in two (8-10 turns).  

As for multiplayer... yeah, that did kind of suck, but sit down and think about this for a second... would you really want multiplayer for Dark Dawn?  Everyone has max speed thanks to Zol Gear, has an unleash setup utilizing Centurian rushes, etc...  It doesn't make for very much fun when you have a game as broken as DD's battle system.  Perhaps we're better off not having it than having them butcher it too.

Finally, like it or not, DD is a part of GS.  You can't just throw it into fanon discontinuity, because the next game will likely have direct references to the events in this one.  It's like Suikoden IV or Battle Network 4 - they're actually pretty bad games, but they're still a part of the franchise, and the franchise as a whole, despite suffering through the game, may even have benefited by learning what not to do.   The fundaments are here to stay, but since the game never bothered to define them, we have the freedom to define them how we please until it's proven otherwise.  So for now, perhaps you can embrace the Aspect Approach that I champion.  This lets you use the stuff from Dark Dawn without any of that annoying lore-breaking stuff.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2013, 07:58:58 PM by Rolina » Logged

View Profile WWW
Misery
Bad Luck

Great Member
***

Coins: 2
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Clan Position: Mercury Hack Leader
Posts: 709

« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2013, 09:52:51 PM »

DD isn't an insult. It's just not for fans of the previous installments in the series.
I don't actually think it's bad as a game. But it's pretty terrible as a JRPG.
Reading an interview with the Takahashi brothers (i.e. the people who came up with Golden Sun) about DD is what made me make up my mind on this - they did exactly what they were trying to do. They just focused on all the wrong things. I hope they don't make another Golden Sun game, because it's probably going to be similar to DD.

I think their biggest mistakes were 1: dropping the old plotline and 2: mindlessly copying the battle/class system from the previous games.

1 - TLA had an open ending and several loose threads, which I guess is one of the reasons many anticipated a sequel - DD just threw that story aside and started a completely new one, which feels rushed in spite of the fairly long development time of the game.

2 - The class system was interesting, but could've used some more development - they basically made a carbon copy of it and dropped the few extra item classes that added extra variety. The battle system was one of the defining aspects of Golden Sun, and they completely neglected it. I wouldn't have minded if they created an entirely different battle system, currently all the battles in DD feel like filler material.

Another thing that really bothered me about DD as opposed to GS/TLA is the NPCs. In the earlier games, they'd talk about random things, their daily life or anything else you'd expect them to have on their mind. In the later game, they all seem to be trying to nudge you in the right direction, they're all talking about the same things but with different words - it feels like they're trying to speak directly to the player, which is really immersion breaking.

Graphically, they restricted themselves to the limited 3D capabilites of the DS while the GBA used pre-rendered graphics from more capable systems. Having more animations in battle is kind of nice, but overall I'd say the GBA games beat the DS game in terms of visuals, which is pretty sad considering it's a less powerful system. I think Rolina pointed out the other flaws with the graphics fairly well. Many of the environments in DD do look pretty nice though, and the in-battle models are well made.
Logged
View Profile

Novice Member
*

Coins: 0
Offline Offline

Posts: 35

« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2013, 12:52:58 AM »

In my opinion the best thing that Camelot could about Golden Sun is creating a remake, it would contain the two games of GBA united but expanding the history and introducing new features, adding new cities, dungeons, bosses, psinergies, djinns and playable characters.

The other thing that could be fair, is another RPG, not a Golden Sun, but a game with similarities of the systems and references of the history of Golden Sun.
Logged
View Profile
Rolina
The Fulminous Witch
Jupiter Clan

Template maker turned lurker

Alchemist
*

Coins: 10
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
I am: wondering if we can get our clan position changed...
Clan Position: Grand Overlady of Jupiter
Posts: 6051

« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2013, 04:19:02 PM »

I don't know about that.  I don't have to much faith in Camelot right now - the quality of their games has been on the decline for a while.  And no, I'm not just saying that because "lolmariosports" - those very mario sports games have been going through that decline in quality.
Logged

View Profile WWW
JamietheFlameUser
Diamond Pokémon
Mars Clan

Does this look like the face of mercy?

Prodigy
*

Coins: 0
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
I am: Poke poke poke poke... I can't stop it...
Posts: 2633

« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2013, 06:57:48 PM »

Actually, if you look around and talk to people in Dark Dawn, they have a number of very interesting things to say. Especially if you use Spirit Sense on the graves in various towns. They reveal quite a bit of lore about the world that actually ties everything together fairly smoothly.

My biggest problem with Dark Dawn, actually, is the ridiculously long, boring, unskippable intro. And here I thought Tales of Symphonia had a long intro! That, and that the bosses have too low a defence stat, worse even than in TLA.

Also, for everything they got right in this game, they got other stuff wrong to go with. The new Unleash/Weapon experience system is great. But on the other hand, it encourages grinding, which will result in you being way overlevelled, especially with the weak enemies that grant too much EXP. Heck, just fighting everything in your path for the sake of watching the cool combat animations results in you being overlevelled!

A large part of the problem with Dark Dawn is that they listened to the fans, but overdid it. Many fans were complaining about the ridiculous encounter rate, so they did the standard fix: fewer encounters, more EXP per encounter, which increases the ability to flee from battles to save time. But the new 3D animations, the new unleash system, and the ability to fast-forward make it so that players won't want to flee from battles like they did before. And not only that, but fleeing seems to fail a lot more often in Dark Dawn, to the point where you waste less time just slaughtering the enemy than you do trying to flee.

Also, Himi is a problem just by herself. But ignoring her, graphics. The character models and animation work are very impressive, so it's a shame that the flinch animations on attacks are badly placed, and that the actual GFX and effect models look so terrible. (Looking at you, Supernova. Even though that little twinge in the air before it goes off is amazingly cool, it just makes the rest of the attack more underwhelming.)
Logged

:P

Lloyd: Easy as pie.
Genis: Sweet!
Presea: ...Sweetie pie...
Zelos: Let's not start on this again...

Spoiler for epic mindscrew:
View Profile
Misery
Bad Luck

Great Member
***

Coins: 2
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Clan Position: Mercury Hack Leader
Posts: 709

« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2013, 07:35:46 PM »

Actually, if you look around and talk to people in Dark Dawn, they have a number of very interesting things to say. Especially if you use Spirit Sense on the graves in various towns. They reveal quite a bit of lore about the world that actually ties everything together fairly smoothly.
I can't really say anything against that, just saying how I remembered it. I guess the game wasn't that memorable, and now I only remember the things that annoyed me.

A large part of the problem with Dark Dawn is that they listened to the fans, but overdid it.
This makes it... a lot of times I've seen people either saying they did as they did because they were listening to the fans, or that they were trying too hard to please the fans, and I'm starting to get curious. Do fans actually have some kind of communication channel to the developers? Do the designers of GS read game balance or plot discussions on gaming boards and fansites? Do they read reviews by random gamers? Do they personally read fanmail and base their development plans on them? Did they have public polls where players could state their likes and dislikes about their games?

Sorry if this sounds like I'm trying to shoot down your statement, I really am genuinely curious about where this idea comes from (I don't really keep up to date with gaming news either). If it's actually true that they listen to their fans, I'm sure more than a few people have some stuff to say to them.
Logged
View Profile

Novice Member
*

Coins: 0
Offline Offline

Posts: 35

« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2013, 08:28:46 PM »

Also, Himi is a problem just by herself. But ignoring her, graphics. The character models and animation work are very impressive, so it's a shame that the flinch animations on attacks are badly placed, and that the actual GFX and effect models look so terrible. (Looking at you, Supernova. Even though that little twinge in the air before it goes off is amazingly cool, it just makes the rest of the attack more underwhelming.)
Himi? what is that? food?

Actually, my favorarite thing of Dark Dawn is that each djinn have his own design.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2013, 08:35:33 PM by Raetah » Logged
View Profile
JamietheFlameUser
Diamond Pokémon
Mars Clan

Does this look like the face of mercy?

Prodigy
*

Coins: 0
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
I am: Poke poke poke poke... I can't stop it...
Posts: 2633

« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2013, 08:38:23 PM »

Actually, if you look around and talk to people in Dark Dawn, they have a number of very interesting things to say. Especially if you use Spirit Sense on the graves in various towns. They reveal quite a bit of lore about the world that actually ties everything together fairly smoothly.
I can't really say anything against that, just saying how I remembered it. I guess the game wasn't that memorable, and now I only remember the things that annoyed me.

A large part of the problem with Dark Dawn is that they listened to the fans, but overdid it.
This makes it... a lot of times I've seen people either saying they did as they did because they were listening to the fans, or that they were trying too hard to please the fans, and I'm starting to get curious. Do fans actually have some kind of communication channel to the developers? Do the designers of GS read game balance or plot discussions on gaming boards and fansites? Do they read reviews by random gamers? Do they personally read fanmail and base their development plans on them? Did they have public polls where players could state their likes and dislikes about their games?

Sorry if this sounds like I'm trying to shoot down your statement, I really am genuinely curious about where this idea comes from (I don't really keep up to date with gaming news either). If it's actually true that they listen to their fans, I'm sure more than a few people have some stuff to say to them.

Well, I don't know anything in particular, but the changes they made certainly coincide with what I've seen from a number of commenters on Youtube, IGN, etc. And I know we've all seen about 30 billion bad fanfics featuring Light and Dark Adepts.
Logged

:P

Lloyd: Easy as pie.
Genis: Sweet!
Presea: ...Sweetie pie...
Zelos: Let's not start on this again...

Spoiler for epic mindscrew:
View Profile

Novice Member
*

Coins: 0
Offline Offline

Posts: 35

« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2013, 08:41:00 PM »

Actually, if you look around and talk to people in Dark Dawn, they have a number of very interesting things to say. Especially if you use Spirit Sense on the graves in various towns. They reveal quite a bit of lore about the world that actually ties everything together fairly smoothly.
I can't really say anything against that, just saying how I remembered it. I guess the game wasn't that memorable, and now I only remember the things that annoyed me.

A large part of the problem with Dark Dawn is that they listened to the fans, but overdid it.
This makes it... a lot of times I've seen people either saying they did as they did because they were listening to the fans, or that they were trying too hard to please the fans, and I'm starting to get curious. Do fans actually have some kind of communication channel to the developers? Do the designers of GS read game balance or plot discussions on gaming boards and fansites? Do they read reviews by random gamers? Do they personally read fanmail and base their development plans on them? Did they have public polls where players could state their likes and dislikes about their games?

Sorry if this sounds like I'm trying to shoot down your statement, I really am genuinely curious about where this idea comes from (I don't really keep up to date with gaming news either). If it's actually true that they listen to their fans, I'm sure more than a few people have some stuff to say to them.

Well, I don't know anything in particular, but the changes they made certainly coincide with what I've seen from a number of commenters on Youtube, IGN, etc. And I know we've all seen about 30 billion bad fanfics featuring Light and Dark Adepts.
Light and Dark Adepts... That was one of the worst aditions to Dark Dawn.
Logged
View Profile
Rolina
The Fulminous Witch
Jupiter Clan

Template maker turned lurker

Alchemist
*

Coins: 10
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
I am: wondering if we can get our clan position changed...
Clan Position: Grand Overlady of Jupiter
Posts: 6051

« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2013, 08:49:41 PM »

@Jamie:  Forgive my asking but... "Ability to Fast Forward"?  What are you talking about?  I don't recall anything of the sort.
Logged

View Profile WWW
Fox
Fox McCloud, the Hacking Doctor
Mercury Clan

Prodigy
*

Coins: 28
Offline Offline

I am: certainly not a Gallant!
Clan Position: Head Gallant
Posts: 2411

« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2013, 09:40:17 PM »

I think that's his way of saying the battles end faster than the ones in the original GBA games. Rather than being an ability itself. Correct me if I'm wrong, since I haven't checked.
Logged

Golden Sun Docs: Broken Seal - The Lost Age - Dark Dawn | Mario Sports Docs: Mario Golf & Mario Tennis | Misc. Docs
Refer to Yoshi's Lighthouse for any M&L hacking needs...

Remember kids! Before you go on that interview, remember to wash your hands in teawater! *Coughs on hand* (Excuse me, I just coughed up a little teawater, so they're still clean!) You wouldn't want that hiring manager to be unimpressed.

May the force be with you!
Shoo! Why does it smell in here?
Maybe that's the wrong kind of force. *smirk*
View Profile

Novice Member
*

Coins: 0
Offline Offline

Posts: 35

« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2013, 10:07:41 PM »

sad thing that, in the random battles, the only thing i did is pressing a lot the A button to beat enemies with normal attacks-unleashes.
Logged
View Profile
JamietheFlameUser
Diamond Pokémon
Mars Clan

Does this look like the face of mercy?

Prodigy
*

Coins: 0
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
I am: Poke poke poke poke... I can't stop it...
Posts: 2633

« Reply #13 on: August 31, 2013, 12:54:20 AM »

@Jamie:  Forgive my asking but... "Ability to Fast Forward"?  What are you talking about?  I don't recall anything of the sort.

Pressing and holding A (or was it B?) makes attack, Unleash, Djinn, and Psynergy animations move faster and allows you to skip Summon animations.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2013, 01:06:40 AM by JamietheFlameUser » Logged

:P

Lloyd: Easy as pie.
Genis: Sweet!
Presea: ...Sweetie pie...
Zelos: Let's not start on this again...

Spoiler for epic mindscrew:
View Profile
Rolina
The Fulminous Witch
Jupiter Clan

Template maker turned lurker

Alchemist
*

Coins: 10
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
I am: wondering if we can get our clan position changed...
Clan Position: Grand Overlady of Jupiter
Posts: 6051

« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2013, 08:54:18 PM »

That was true even in TLA.
Logged

View Profile WWW
Pages: [1] 2   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Cbox
Today at 02:46:36 PM
KyleRunner: Atrius!!
Yesterday at 11:29:46 PM
Atrius: @Fox, I tried, but for some reason Mario Golf won't boot, and Mario Tennis crashes when you patch out the text compression, and I'm not sure why...  The normal text loading functions in them are basically the same as the ones in the Golden Sun games.
April 16, 2018, 07:44:36 AM
Drake baku: So it took about halve a hour of letting my lap stay off for it to suddenly work again
April 16, 2018, 07:31:28 AM
Drake baku: All of a sudden fox his editor gets errors. When trying to start it, thing worked fine yesterday...
April 14, 2018, 01:04:37 PM
Fox: @Mario Golf/text editing = Nope... And it may be awhile yet. I think I looked into it before... (at least for GS1)... but usually is the case when I come across a particular problem, that it can delay a solution for an extremely long time.
April 12, 2018, 04:27:14 PM
KyleRunner: Gee... never used discord...
April 12, 2018, 06:03:23 AM
Drake baku: I take it back, found it
April 12, 2018, 06:02:01 AM
Drake baku: But there is no discord link to be found
April 12, 2018, 06:01:44 AM
Drake baku: Everyone is on discord
April 11, 2018, 09:44:06 PM
KyleRunner: Fox, what about that tool for editing text in Mario Golf? Didi you finish it? If not, can you make a version of gstoolkit compatible with it?
April 11, 2018, 07:41:25 AM
Drake baku: Mauw
March 30, 2018, 07:26:11 PM
Salanewt: Hi!
March 29, 2018, 07:37:45 PM
ThanatosTheDark: YYEEEOOOOOO
March 12, 2018, 02:21:06 AM
Fox: say*
March 12, 2018, 02:20:53 AM
Fox: I saw we need an event this April Fools/Easter... because two holidays are in one, why would we not want to miss having something special? (Unfortunately, there's no one here to make an event be successful.)
March 12, 2018, 02:18:17 AM
Fox: And since that's the case...  I have thought of another fun experiment idea. - What if we had an auction on who should run this site, and waited for 10 people to bid and also for a bare minimum of 24 hours. Who would bid the highest, and how much would that bid be? - The idea is more for lulz (Maybe for April Fools?), and a theory to get an idea of how much the site might be worth as well.
March 11, 2018, 03:02:31 AM
Fox: Creepy, isn't it?
March 10, 2018, 02:19:04 AM
Fox: It's frog legs now.. It's something that's dead, but somehow still manages to wiggle.
March 09, 2018, 04:12:17 AM
JamietheFlameUser: I think this place is still dead.
March 02, 2018, 09:43:18 AM
Pkmn-Master: Lol I haven't been here in like 6 years. How is everyone?

Affiliates
Temple of Kraden Golden Sunrise
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.063 seconds with 22 queries.