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History of Weyard

Started by Luna_blade, 23, November, 2013, 03:03:03 AM

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Straffy

Well, the lighthouses could have been built to keep the balance between elements. To me, they look more like sources of power than like seals of it... But, if it is said in the game, then you must be right.

Wow, just realised, I must look like a guy who questions everything... sorry for that, I'm just trying to understand the history. Btw, thank you for answering ^^
Pardon my French accent.

KyleRunner

Quote from: Straffy on 28, April, 2014, 01:30:30 PM
Well, the lighthouses could have been built to keep the balance between elements. To me, they look more like sources of power than like seals of it... But, if it is said in the game, then you must be right.

Wow, just realised, I must look like a guy who questions everything... sorry for that, I'm just trying to understand the history. Btw, thank you for answering ^^

Think about something: they were built very far from each other, and, to enter them, you have to be an adept AND solve A LOT of puzzles. What's the logical reason behind this? To make sure all the beacons stay unlit unless a group o adepts (at least one of each kind) are very determined (an urgent reason) to lit them.
They are only a source of power once lit. Just remember the dialogues at both Lighthouses.

Straffy

Right. Thanks for your help, got it now :)
Pardon my French accent.

Thunder-squall

#23
Quote from: KyleRunner on 28, April, 2014, 02:04:55 PM
Quote from: Straffy on 28, April, 2014, 01:30:30 PM
Well, the lighthouses could have been built to keep the balance between elements. To me, they look more like sources of power than like seals of it... But, if it is said in the game, then you must be right.

Wow, just realised, I must look like a guy who questions everything... sorry for that, I'm just trying to understand the history. Btw, thank you for answering ^^

Think about something: they were built very far from each other, and, to enter them, you have to be an adept AND solve A LOT of puzzles. What's the logical reason behind this? To make sure all the beacons stay unlit unless a group o adepts (at least one of each kind) are very determined (an urgent reason) to lit them.
They are only a source of power once lit. Just remember the dialogues at both Lighthouses.

If you want the light houses to remain unlit, then why not destroy them, or at least make it mechanically impossible to light them?

The answer is that they were switches, meant to be able to be turned on or off when a select few (adepts) decided to do so.  Their design suggests (1) adaptive management, in that the houses would be lit and unlit as needed, and (2) control by committee, where the decision to light them was in the hands of more than one individual, assuming that an individual could only be an adept of one element.

'Aadaptive management' is an engineering term you should look up if you're not already familiar with it.  It's prevalent in situations where there is no stable 'steady state,' and that seems to describe Weyard perfectly.

KyleRunner

#24
If you want the light houses to remain unlit, then why not destroy them, or at least make it mechanically impossible to light them?

The answer is that they were switches, meant to be able to be turned on or off when a select few (adepts) decided to do so.  Their design suggests (1) adaptive management, in that the houses would be lit and unlit as needed, and (2) control by committee, where the decision to light them was in the hands of more than one individual, assuming that an individual could only be an adept of one element.

'Aadaptive management' is an engineering term you should look up if you're not already familiar with it.  It's prevalent in situations where there is no stable 'steady state,' and that seems to describe Weyard perfectly.
[/quote]

Hmm... I'm not sure I can agree with you, mylady... You mean that they can be turned on and off? Turning them of would result in...? Sealing Alchemy again? I don't agree.
No one knows for sure how the Alchemy was sealed.
Could such an almighty event like Golden Sun be turned off just by turning a beacon off? I wonder...
Remember: the Alchemy was natural in Weyard. That's why sealing it caused the world to enter in collapse.

Rolina

They wouldn't want it to be unlit - that'd bring about the end of the world.  Those whom sealed away alchemy very likely knew that.  Instead, they had a two-fold solution.  First, make it so that not just anyone, and not just any adept could traverse the lighthouses.  Requiring adepts prevents laymen form entering and getting killed, and those puzzles keeps people like Saturos and Menardi, whom didn't exactly have the most valiant of methods regardless of their motives, from using it to do what Alex ultimately did - gain power.  The second one?  The Wise One.  The Wise One would push things into motion if necessary, and guide and test things as they went along, even would subvert the actions of anyone who was power hungry.

Thunder-squall

#26
Quote from: KyleRunner on 29, April, 2014, 07:14:50 PM
Remember: the Alchemy was natural in Weyard. That's why sealing it caused the world to enter in collapse.

And unsealing it caused psiEnergy vortexes to start popping up, and caused the world to enter into chaos?

-- I hope the reason so many of you dislike DarkDawn has nothing to do with the fact that it upset some of your pet fan theories.  That just wouldn't be cool.

Rolina

Psychic
Energy

Psynergy.  Psy Vortexes have two theories, both of which are great ones: 

First, the Golden Sun wasn't balanced - Isaac has part of Mars within him!  Because of that, the world is unbalanced, and the vortexes are trying to re-absorb that missing energy.  The vortexes and Mourning Moon fill that hole temporarily, but the only way to really get it to stop is for Isaac to give up the power of mars residing within him - possibly even having to sacrifice himself to save Weyard.

Second, Flip Side Theory, where the two sides of weyards have basically a pressure difference because only one side's golden sun is lit.  The other side doesn't have vortexes, but violent Psynergy Storms, where all that energy sucked away here is unleashed upon a corresponding point in the Flip Side.

Thunder-squall

Hmm... What's the consensus on how and why Weyard came into existence in the first place?

Rolina

There really isn't one, sadly.  Nothing in the series is said of any kind of pantheon or creation myths.

Thunder-squall

Is it reasonable to say that it was created and sustained using alchemy, which is why it began to fall apart when alchemy was sealed?

Rolina

Weyard can't have been creative with alchemy, because that implies that people were already there.  Alchemy is more of the life blood of the planet, so it's more akin to FF7 and the use of Mako energy for materia.  Without the "lifestream" of weyard, it begins to wither and die.  With it restored, it begins to recover.

KyleRunner

Quote from: Rolina on 29, April, 2014, 08:40:43 PM
There really isn't one, sadly.  Nothing in the series is said of any kind of pantheon or creation myths.

I have a theory.
I think that the light and dark elements are not conected to psynergy directly. They are linked to Alchemy! (I have to work this point more, but it makes sense, since we did not see any light/dark psyenergy when Alchemy was sealed).
I think that the "non-void" (all that exists) is created by the disruptive waves caused by the interaction between those two elements.
Sorry if someone else said the exactly same thing before.

Thunder-squall

I see Weyard as an artificial escape pod meant to escape whatever fate befell those below.

OR it's Olympus.

Rolina

Quote from: KyleRunner on 29, April, 2014, 10:59:48 PM
Quote from: Rolina on 29, April, 2014, 08:40:43 PM
There really isn't one, sadly.  Nothing in the series is said of any kind of pantheon or creation myths.

I have a theory.
I think that the light and dark elements are not conected to psynergy directly. They are linked to Alchemy! (I have to work this point more, but it makes sense, since we did not see any light/dark psyenergy when Alchemy was sealed).
I think that the "non-void" (all that exists) is created by the disruptive waves caused by the interaction between those two elements.
Sorry if someone else said the exactly same thing before.
...Psynergy is the practical application of Alchemy.
It's like how Technology is the practical application of Science.
And how Magic is the practical application of Mysticism.

Thunder-squall

I still think it's Olympus.  And mortals basically got stuck up there.

Alternately, given the name "Weyard" (as Passaj), it seems like a way point between places.  I like the idea of there being other shards or floating plateaus like Weyard.

KyleRunner


[/quote]
...Psynergy is the practical application of Alchemy.
It's like how Technology is the practical application of Science.
And how Magic is the practical application of Mysticism.
[/quote]

Well, I don't agree...

Alchemy was sealed! So, how could Psynergy still be used? It is a simple logic matter...

Psynergy is focusing the -mind- and using its power to change the world around.
Alchemy is a much greater power.

Daddy Poi's Oily Gorillas

#37
So Alchemy and Psynergy are different? I thought they were pretty much the same on general terms...
(Let me make a random comparison (Might be illogical, but..?): Alchemy is the spirit of Weyard, and Psynergy is the mind power of people.) 

I'm going to guess and say that the SEAL on alchemy isn't the same as the DEATH of alchemy. Perhaps it's the "endless generated resources" that's sealed...
(Weyard is dying, but never completely died... if Alchemy died completely, would Weyard still be there?)


Anyway, when thinking of the psy-seal effect keeping you from using psynergy... It's not like you don't have psynergy, but you just can't use it... Hmmm!

---

Psynergy = Battery
Alchemy = Charger

What do you think? (And once alchemy is sealed, the "charger" loses it's source (unplugged), and then it drains slowly... but look at it as a giant charger that is able to consume a lot of power perhaps as big as the sun.)
After the unplug, fortunately for us, everyone's batteries are maxed. Over time, this drains too, but the people can still recharge themselves a little bit with the remaining power supply from the unplugged charger until it's gone.
Golden Sun Docs: Broken Seal - The Lost Age - Dark Dawn | Mario Sports Docs: Mario Golf & Mario Tennis | Misc. Docs
Refer to Yoshi's Lighthouse for any M&L hacking needs...

Sometimes I like to compare apples to oranges. (Figuratively) ... They are both fruits, but which one would you eat more? (If taken literally, I'd probably choose apples.)
Maybe it is over-analyzing, but it doesn't mean the information is useless.


The only GS Discord servers with significance are:
Golden Sun Hacking Community
GS Speedrunning
/r/Golden Sun
GS United Nations
Temple of Kraden

Can you believe how small the Golden Sun Community is?

2+2=5 Don't believe me? Those are rounded decimal numbers. Take that, flat earth theorists! :)

Rolina

Quote from: Thunder-squall on 30, April, 2014, 02:32:51 AM
I still think it's Olympus.  And mortals basically got stuck up there.

Alternately, given the name "Weyard" (as Passaj), it seems like a way point between places.  I like the idea of there being other shards or floating plateaus like Weyard.
Pretty sure the name Weyard is a reference to some mythos.  It's not exclusive to GS (I think Valkyrie Profile uses it?  Not to sure on that, though).

KyleRunner

#39
Quote from: Teawater on 30, April, 2014, 07:56:00 AM
So Alchemy and Psynergy are different? I thought they were pretty much the same on general terms...
(Let me make a random comparison (Might be illogical, but..?): Alchemy is the spirit of Weyard, and Psynergy is the mind power of people.)  

I'm going to guess and say that the SEAL on alchemy isn't the same as the DEATH of alchemy. Perhaps it's the "endless generated resources" that's sealed...
(Weyard is dying, but never completely died... if Alchemy died completely, would Weyard still be there?)


Anyway, when thinking of the psy-seal effect keeping you from using psynergy... It's not like you don't have psynergy, but you just can't use it... Hmmm!

---

Psynergy = Battery
Alchemy = Charger

What do you think? (And once alchemy is sealed, the "charger" loses it's source (unplugged), and then it drains slowly... but look at it as a giant charger that is able to consume a lot of power perhaps as big as the sun.)
After the unplug, fortunately for us, everyone's batteries are maxed. Over time, this drains too, but the people can still recharge themselves a little bit with the remaining power supply from the unplugged charger until it's gone.

Well... we do not have much lore about it, so someone has to -start- to create a logical explanation...

Let's put my theory to test:
1) Dying but not dead Weyard: as I said in the other post, I think that all that exists came from the interactions between light and darkness, which are related to Alchemy. So, everything that is created, is created. Period. That would explain why matter still exists. But sealing the Alchemy means that nothing gets renewed.
My questions here are: how releasing Alchemy could stop the world from falling into the falls? Releasing Alchemy will result in merging the continents again? If so, Alchemy is responsible for this bond.

2) Charging/recharging: well... everything is created by Alchemy, including Psynergy. But there is a difference between the elemental psynergies and the "alchemy energies (technically they are not PSYnergies, unless used by someone)" (responsible for creation). How could I explain this... Light and darkness interactions created earth, water, wind and fire. These are the "blocks" for creating matter. So, for example, wood is created by all these elements (15% fire, 40% earth...). Nothing is created by a single element, except, maybe, the purified essence inside the elemental stars.
The psynergy used by Adepts don't come directly from Alchemy (inderectly, yes, just like everything that it's not void), but from the psynergy stones that are a particular matter (but just created by the same means as wood) capable of imbuing people with the power of psynergy. They are already created. That's why - in my humble theory - Adepts still can use Psynergy despite Alchemy already being sealed.