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Author Topic: speculation on light-and-dark adepts.  (Read 19897 times)
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Thunder-squall
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« on: 10, January, 2014, 06:54:24 PM »

I don't think these are new psi-energies.  Or if they are, I think they're psi-energies *about* the 4 main psi-energies.  So a Light Adept may be able to enhance or amplify existing psionic powers; dark psi-energy may be about absorbing them, diminishing them, dampening them, etc.

Or maybe Light and Dark relate to order vs. chaos, since the world of Golden Sun always seems on the brink of either.

But I don't know.  I really haven't given this comparatively that much thought.  But I figure I will sooner or later.
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« Reply #1 on: 10, January, 2014, 07:40:18 PM »

Quote
There's one fan theory I like to go with, since it doesn't feel like it breaks the GS formula as much as actual light and dark elements. That is, Sol/light would be the four elements, and Luna/darkness would be some sort of "anti-psynergy". This is consistent with the concept of psynergy vortexes, the PP-draining tendencies of the Tuaparang enemies encountered, and with their techniques seeming to not be based on psynergy. Also, the Golden Sun has been seen to be formed by the four elements.
Copy-pasted from a post I made on GSAR. In other words, I guess we're sort of on the same track.
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« Reply #2 on: 10, January, 2014, 07:59:11 PM »

Yeah, maybe that is a good way to look at it.

My view: Sol is the Positive of an element, and Luna is the Negative of an element. (Not saying Good or Evil exactly, but was thinking randomly about protons/neutrons/elections/magnets/etc.

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Another chart I found by her, that might seem interesting. (See her Signature project.)
« Last Edit: 10, January, 2014, 08:05:59 PM by Teawater » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: 10, January, 2014, 10:24:11 PM »

Not sure I agree with Role's thing, but that's probably because I don't understand it.  I'll give it some time and then see how I feel.

Quote
There's one fan theory I like to go with, since it doesn't feel like it breaks the GS formula as much as actual light and dark elements. That is, Sol/light would be the four elements, and Luna/darkness would be some sort of "anti-psynergy". This is consistent with the concept of psynergy vortexes, the PP-draining tendencies of the Tuaparang enemies encountered, and with their techniques seeming to not be based on psynergy. Also, the Golden Sun has been seen to be formed by the four elements.
Copy-pasted from a post I made on GSAR. In other words, I guess we're sort of on the same track.

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« Reply #4 on: 27, April, 2014, 06:50:45 PM »

Yeah, maybe that is a good way to look at it.

My view: Sol is the Positive of an element, and Luna is the Negative of an element. (Not saying Good or Evil exactly, but was thinking randomly about protons/neutrons/elections/magnets/etc.

Don't forget about this chart:
(Linking to an image on Rolina's photobucket.)

*snip for size*

Another chart I found by her, that might seem interesting. (See her Signature project.)
*snip for size*

I have a more updated version of that, by the way.  If you're interested, you can swing by my tumblr.
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« Reply #5 on: 04, May, 2014, 07:15:25 PM »

The chart's nice, but I don't see any basis for it within the games themselves.  The only time a developer would use it was if they had an 'adept-crafting-system' where they needed to maintain balance, no matter what players did. But the Golden Sun series is narrative driven with a smaller cast, and thus they can pretty much creating a smaller subset of any type of character they want, and then just make sure the subset is balanced.  Because that's what they're doing, it doesn't make sense for them to complicate matters.

My interpretation has been adjusted to be

Light: All "normal" psyenergies, such as mars, jupiter, mercury, and venus
Dark: a new mysterious and strange psyenergy which not many people know about.

Luna and Sol would be considered in the Light.
  • Sol Aligned: Mars and Venus
  • Luna Aligned: Jupiter and Mercury

Taken in this way, Dark PsyEnergy could be considered the 5th element, which is compatible with void, if one considers the Japanese Philosophy (and we should, given that this was a Japanese game).  Hinduism also considers this 5th element as well (emptiness; empty space; void), but also sometimes a 6th:  Consciousness.  This obviously seems compatible with interpretations of 'light.'  However according to the wiki, "some modern Buddhist interpretations are currently describing the 'Emptiness element' as space and consciousness. Certainly one does not need to derive a sixth element when the true fifth element of 'Emptiness' is understood which contains both space and consciousness and is beyond space and consciousness in its truer, more pure selfless 'Empty' nature."  Given that the Tuaparang (or Umbral Clan) introduced in Dark Dawn share a name with the Buddhist Tsaparang, we should take this interpretation seriously, and suspect that there is a way to find light through darkness (i.e. meditation, rather than dark psyenergy).

So that's all pretty nice, and works together in the obvious and expected way, without needless complication.  Occam's razor compels us.

But if the 5 elements (including emptiness) are inclined to coexist (even if in opposition), what makes Dark PsyEnergy strange and unusual, when Luna itself is never called strange an unusual?

Disharmony, is my only answer.  Dark PsyEnergy seems to break the natural cycle of life and death, leaving only the constantly undead.  "Breaking of the rules" can be useful, but it's still unusual, and can have a negative effect on creatures which exist and rely on rules to begin with.

Looking more into the existence of dark creatures, we know that "evil energy" is repelled by alchemy, and therefore we can presume that dark creatures and their communities were hit hard when Alchemy was released in The Lost Age.  One could presume that their civilizations, should they exist, are now on the brink of collapse.
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« Reply #6 on: 04, May, 2014, 07:23:17 PM »

I don't know about that.  It's great in theory, but most light-based attacks are Mars and Jupiter, and Darkness is almost exclusive to Venus.  Crystallux is the only example of Venusian Light, and there's no example either way for Mercury.
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« Reply #7 on: 04, May, 2014, 07:34:40 PM »

The chart's nice, but I don't see any basis for it within the games themselves.  The only time a developer would use it was if they had an 'adept-crafting-system' where they needed to maintain balance, no matter what players did. But the Golden Sun series is narrative driven with a smaller cast, and thus they can pretty much creating a smaller subset of any type of character they want, and then just make sure the subset is balanced.  Because that's what they're doing, it doesn't make sense for them to complicate matters. (Quote shortened)
Ah it seems you used my theory. No problems with it.
This theory is also pretty solid.

Light can also be interpreted as Alchemy then I guess?
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« Reply #8 on: 04, May, 2014, 07:36:57 PM »

It used to be, until Dark Dawn.  Dark Dawn says it's not Alchemy itself, but a fundamental part of it that works in tandem with the elements, along with Darkness.  Pre-DD, the prevailing theory was that Light represented Alchemy, and Darkness the seal upon it, but DD worked both into alchemy itself.
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« Reply #9 on: 04, May, 2014, 07:54:50 PM »


Light can also be interpreted as Alchemy then I guess?

In another thread, we recently started trying to figure out the difference between Alchemy and Psyenergy.

> When a person uses psyenergy, they're called psyenergy adepts.  When crystals or rocks or stones contain psyenergy, they're called psy-whatevers.

> The only time the word alchemy is used is when there're machines or constructs involved.  One might think of it as mechanized psyenergy use.

I think DarkDawn introduced the first structures which seemed to manipulate Dark Psyenergy, and this seemed to be Luna Tower.  If that's true, than alchemy is not aligned with any specific type of psyenergy, but refers to the mechanized and automated way of using psyenergy,
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« Reply #10 on: 06, May, 2014, 09:06:58 AM »


> When a person uses psyenergy, they're called psyenergy adepts.  When crystals or rocks or stones contain psyenergy, they're called psy-whatevers.
Users? Like Babi?
> The only time the word alchemy is used is when there're machines or constructs involved.  One might think of it as mechanized psyenergy use.

I think DarkDawn introduced the first structures which seemed to manipulate Dark Psyenergy, and this seemed to be Luna Tower.  If that's true, than alchemy is not aligned with any specific type of psyenergy, but refers to the mechanized and automated way of using psyenergy,
Actually the Wise One or Kraden refers to Alchemy as psynergy or the combined elements. But he may be wrong (no offense).

Well you got a point there. The meaning of the word is exactly that. But... the GBA games explain Alchemy as a different concept I guess?
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« Reply #11 on: 06, May, 2014, 11:13:41 PM »

Babi was confirmed to not be an Adept, though.  I think she was referring to Psy Crystals and Psynergy Stones - basically, objects rather than creatures.  Also, keep in mind that TS's only experience with GS is Dark Dawn - she didn't play the part in the beginning of the first game where Kraden explained what Alchemy is.
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« Reply #12 on: 20, May, 2014, 04:38:03 PM »

Babi obviously was an "Adept" of some form, even if it's only as much as the King of Ayuthay is an "Adept" in Dark Dawn. That is, he can use Psynergy utilities with the aid of the appropriate bestowing item. Babi could use the Cloak Ball, after all.

Also, Dark Dawn adds another question, specifically about non-Adepts: Do they have Psynergy Points too, even if they lack the ability to use them? The Slap Glove still bestows Slap as a Psynergy, after all, and it still costs PP. Now, if to cast Slap with the Slap Glove you had to go into your inventory and "Use" the Glove, that would've made obvious sense as to how it can be used by non-Adepts, just as you don't have to be an Adept to wield most artifact weapons. (Though there are exceptions, such as the Sol Blade and, in GS:DD, the Gaia Blade as well. Only an Earth Adept can wield those.)

It's true that what little Dark Psynergy we've seen doesn't seem to be true Psynergy. That is, it isn't cast as a Psynergy technique normally is, it does not cost Psynergy Points, and it cannot be sealed. If operating under the assumption that regular folk do indeed have Psynergy Points but are unable to use them in any way (as implied by the behaviour of the Slap Glove, which it is stated anyone can use), I would not be surprised if these "Dark Adepts" lack Psynergy Points completely.
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« Reply #13 on: 20, May, 2014, 08:10:33 PM »

Interesting. I agree on behalve of my unfinished fanfic that babi is a sort of adept. (He gains a few elemental levels by being exposed to psynergy stones)

So 'Dark adepts' probably don't even use psynergy do they? Would it even still be possible (with training) to still be able to cast normal psynergy?

Anyway, this makes Dark or Umbra a totally different thing than I thought earlier.
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« Reply #14 on: 21, May, 2014, 12:22:10 AM »

I'd actually argue that Babi was an Exathi, not an adept.
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« Reply #15 on: 21, May, 2014, 05:32:32 AM »

Uhh yeah, I don't know a bit of DD... I'll look into this.
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« Reply #16 on: 21, May, 2014, 10:48:04 AM »

Yeah, DD introduced a third tier of person.


You have the normal mundane people (fori) at one end, who can neither see nor cast psynergy.
You have adepts on the other end (jenai), who both see and cast psynergy.
You have the exathi in the middle, who can certainly see psynergy, but can't cast it.  They're apparently people who can build magitek type stuff, and it's heavily implied that many of the alchemy machines were the result of the combined effort of the Exathi and the ancient Jenai.

Babi can see psynergy, but he can't really wield it.  And he did build himself quite the empire.  There's a good argument on behalf of him being Exathi.
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« Reply #17 on: 21, May, 2014, 05:24:36 PM »

As of Golden Sun: Dark Dawn, every standard human can perceive basic Psynergy effects to my understanding. That's part of what the release of Alchemy did. It's evident that they still can't see Spirit Sense, but they can definitely tell that you were the one who caused that massive volcanic eruption out of nowhere. I mean, I know all the people at Patcher's Place were Adepts, which is why they reacted to Tyrell almost blowing up the whole establishment with Fireball, but I still think everyone can see most Psynergy techniques. I thought that's why they were so concerned about maintaining the image of Adepts in the eyes of common people after the release of Alchemy.

Actually, now that I think about it, I don't recall anyone in-game ever mentally complaining about you casting Spirit Sense on them, despite the behaviour of various NPC Adepts when you cast Mind Read on them.

It's spelled "Jenei" actually, not Jenai.

Dark Dawn's a little weird about it though. Most people assumed, prior to the release of Dark Dawn, that the release of Alchemy would restore the ability to use Psynergy to all people, either immediately or over time. Having so many people with that much power at their disposal running around was why Alchemy was sealed in the first place.

In any case, Babi could cast Psynergy, even if not on his own. He could use the Cloak Ball, as I stated earlier, and he could operate the Black Crystals used to power Lemurian ships.
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« Reply #18 on: 22, May, 2014, 11:00:26 AM »

He also specifically stated he's not an adept, that he doesn't have that kind of power.  Because he was able to extract psynergy from a tool/object, though... well, that to me is how Exathi came across.  As people who could do that.
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« Reply #19 on: 22, May, 2014, 01:50:54 PM »

He also specifically stated he's not an adept, that he doesn't have that kind of power.  Because he was able to extract psynergy from a tool/object, though... well, that to me is how Exathi came across.  As people who could do that.
Unless he lied...
And I think he might be an Exathi.
Quote from: Rolina
He also specifically stated he's not an adept, that he doesn't have that kind of power.  Because he was able to extract psynergy from a tool/object, though... well, that to me is how Exathi came across.  As people who could do that.
Oh, I guess it's been to long since I have seen it. Thanks for the correction.
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« Reply #20 on: 24, May, 2014, 12:33:11 AM »

Lied about not being an Adept?  No, if he was one, he'd have taken the boat himself, remember?  That's the whole reason he was searching for adepts - so someone could drive the boat.
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« Reply #21 on: 24, May, 2014, 07:24:01 PM »

Correction:
Babi CAN command the boat, but was the only one of them to be able to do so. He is now too old and can't go anywhere without easy access to his Mystic Draught, and has a responsibility to his city that cannot be ignored. So he needs to recruit someone else to do it.
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« Reply #22 on: 25, May, 2014, 11:45:47 AM »

Wait, really?  Where was this?  I'm still a ways away from that section in my WiiU playthough - could you maybe hunt it down in one of the many scripts online?
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« Reply #23 on: 25, May, 2014, 06:39:17 PM »

Quote from: GS2
Kraden    : Unfortunately, Babi was the only one of us who could use the ship.

So there you have it. It's not mentioned in GS1, though.
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Salanewt: That awkward feeling when almost a quarter of a year goes by without anyone posting a message in this chatbox.

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