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Author Topic: To Kill a Something  (Read 13535 times)
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Rolina
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« Reply #15 on: October 16, 2014, 04:36:26 AM »

Yeah, pretty sure I'd be against something like that.
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Menaus
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« Reply #16 on: October 17, 2014, 12:36:44 AM »

Interesting discussion so far, here are my thoughts on what's been discussed.

Quote from: Rolina
To kill traitors?  Oh hell yes.
~
No.  Surprised?  Well, you shouldn't be.  This question is abusable as hell - after all, I could deem anyone I wanted to be a threat to mankind, and have them killed for it.

I find these statements rather contradictory. Isn't the former also abusable? Consider the case that a governing body were to take the former to heart. How would we define traitor? Who says who is and who isn't a traitor? What is to stop the government from arbitrarily deeming someone a traitor they just want to get rid of? The same questions are applicable to your latter statement. Heck, you could semantically argue that a traitor and "people who are a threat to mankind" are superficially the same save that one threatens a nation, whereas the other threatens mankind as a whole. The difference is the scale of these people's actions. Under this, shouldn't we apply the same logic to traitors as we do to those who are a threat to mankind?

Quote from: Role
Oh, that's a touchy subject.  I believe that they're unnecessary, but that the ideal replacement - adoption - is so broken and corrupt in the US that the argument of "mercy killing" may in fact be a strong one.  Personally, I think the whole "prolife/prochoice" thing is bullshit.  Pro-life peeps are often also pro-death penalty and tend to lean more towards war-favoring factions in the political system, so they really can't claim they're "pro life" in my eyes.  Pro Choice is equally bullshit.  Why?  We have a choice.  We can choose whether or not to have sex, to have protection on the male, protection on us, the morning after pill, and even adoption.  So that claim is a lie as well.

I agree to a point. The only thing is that you use an ad hominem argument against those who are pro-life, and don't really address their arguments.

As for my own opinions:

Quote
-Do you believe in random killing? How about sacrifices? Does this include only animals, humans, or both?

If by random, you mean spontaneously, without proper thought or reflection beforehand, then no. However, I find the random killing of insects perfectly fine. People may think this is hypocritical, but perhaps they should look at this perspective. Given that all things are just as valuable (or unvaluable) as each other in terms of our worth of life, then I would say that what a person or animal thinks is fine to kill and what they think is not fine to kill is determined by their emotional attachment to the other person or animal. So, me being human, and me being me with my own sort of emotional personality, I find killing a fly a fine thing, perhaps even a good thing to do, because I hold no sort of emotional attachment to it. A dog or a cat? I would think it deplorable to kill those animals because I have emotional connections to dogs and cats because I have had, and seen had, them as pets. So even if I see a cat on the street, who I have no interactions with, I still have an emotional connection to that cat by it being similar another cat that I have known and loved.

This sort of logic applies on a person-by-person, animal-by-animal basis. This is why psychotics and sociopaths do not think killing humans is wrong -- because their brain chemistry does not allow for emotional connections in the same way the average human does.


Quote
-Do you believe in abortions?

I believe that by having sex, you automatically undertake the responsibility of your actions, and the consequences of those actions. As such, abortions are killing people, and those who 'abort' as it were, are those who are too immature and childish to take responsibility for their actions. Nobody has a right to have sex without the risk of having a baby. The two things are mutual, and society seems to think they should be separated. That isn't to say I'm someone who thinks that sex for pleasure is wrong.

Quote
-Do you believe in killing people who do treason?

No, this is as ridiculous as a company killing a person for trying to quit their job, steal company secrets, and then join with another company to destroy the previous. Deplorable? Perhaps. But not something so wrong that a death sentence should be given.

Quote
-Do you believe in killing false prophets?

No. Freedom of religion, for one. The inability to properly deem someone a 'false prophet', for two.

Quote
-Do you believe in killing people who are a threat to mankind?

No, but restraining them and/or keeping them from doing what bad they may do is acceptable, the same way one would stop a mentally unstable person from doing wrong.

Quote
-Do you believe in killing people ahead of time when they are about to die anyway?

This is a loaded question. How do we know they will die, for certain? If they actually wouldn't have died, then doesn't the person involved become a murderer? This sort of idea is rather silly. It is up to the person to decide whether they want to live or not, just like anyone else who is living now. Now, whether that decision is considered deplorable is another matter.

Quote
-If you died, how would you like to be dealt with?

I don't actually care. Burn me if you want. Or chop up my body and leave it to rot. Or give it to cannibals. Or forget about it. Doesn't matter to me. Perhaps leave it to science.

Quote
-Where would you want your assets to go to?

If my family wants my assets, then they can have them. Otherwise, I don't care. Maybe give them to fund scientific research or something.
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« Reply #17 on: October 17, 2014, 09:15:08 PM »

So Darkylighty, let me get this straight - because I'm a woman who uses this magical thing we call LOGIC to say "I have plenty of choices, and I FREAKING USE THEM", that means I don't have a right to talk?  Am I not female enough for you that you chose to exclude me from my own gender and talk down to me?  To try to explain I have rights that, well, I exorcize all the time, despite what your claims of my "beliefs" may be?
I never did judge your feminity, if you say you are female, you are female, only you is capable of deciding what is your gender and what are you belief. If you don't believe in Abortion, then do no abortion, but you have no right to decide for another what she can do with her body, not like abortion is without risk and it is not like someone is for abortions...

So, i am a male, would put me in jail I don't want to have children ? If us male had to bear children, we would have legalise abortion a long time ago.

All women have rights over their individual body, which belong only to themselves. they have the right to decide if they want to be a mother or not. it is that simple. ME, you, and even the president of the US have no say in the matter, we are not them, we should not decide what is better for someone else personnal life.

Who are you to decide that I should not have sex with my girlfriend if we are both willing but not ready for a child, this is our life, not your, you shall take this decision with your boyfriend for your shake. I am rejecting you logic about people should not sex...

Did I seriously hear you talk down to me about the rights of women?  Did I seriously see you point by point try to counter my views on this and all the rest of these things?
I am disagreeing hoverer your point of view, We can choose whether or not to have sex. that is not for you to decided, you have the right to decided what you do with your own vaginas, but what others girls do with their own vaginas and what I do with my penis is of not concern to you, you being a woman does not make you more legitimate to judge what people do with sexual organ then individual males.

RTFP, dood.  RTFP.  And next time, know who you're replying to.  At this rate, I'm going to have to explain to you how lesbians work after you accuse me of being a homophobe.  

You being a lesbian is barely a point, you have the right to love anyone body you want, if you want, you get into a polygamous homosexual incestuous mariage by marrying your two sisters and I have no problem with that, it is your life, you love the one you want, you choose who you marry, that is very simple. And I did not accuse of lbeing an homophobe.

I do not know you, but being lesbian, bieng heterosexual or bisexual is not a choice, but accepting it is.

Also, the whole "living in the past" thing is NOT the point of the death penalty.  The penalty is to actually PREVENT the crimes from occurring in the first place.  If you don't make do on threats, they have no power.  That's why the death penalty exists - killing another will result in society killing you back.  Betraying your people will result in your people offing your head. Wrong people, and expect to be wronged back.  These are powerful motivators to get people to follow the rule of law.  If the punishment for betraying my country was a few years in jail, I'd look for the highest bidder.  But it's death - meaning if I get caught, I'm screwed.  So I don't do it - it's not worth the risk.  Before you condemn stuff, stop and ask yourself why these things exist in the first place.

Also, you know those states where murder will cost you 30 years?  For some of the people I've dealt with, that'd be worth it.  The punishment must fit the crime, for two reasons - first to prevent cruelty, but also to encourage prevention.
 
You cannot repair a mistake with another mistake, death penalty is a mistake in itself, because when the guy is dead, he is gone, if ever we made a mistake and judge the wrong person, that innocent is dead, you cannot give him back his life.

laws by themselves have no effect on crime, and there is no such proof that death penalty is discourageing crime, while prison in life is not.

At some point, all of us made mistakes in our lifes, by giving death penalty, you deny the possibility that the criminal may change and you stick him an evil ticket, 25 years in prison, as in Norway is enough for a life time, and if ever the person is incapable to change, they just keep him in jail for 5 more years. while the goal of death penalty is to punish, we should go towards rehabilitation.

Dealt penalty does not prevent crime, the best way to prevent crime is to encourage education, I would free public education for all until university is a way better way to prevent crime then law and order. like I said, I prefer to see four criminals in liberty, then 1 innocent on the electric chair.

Quote
This mean the reason you kill an animal is for fun or for commercial purpose, but at the very least, it is not an usefull kill, you don't kill to eat, but for fun, because it would be your right to kill an animalk, I always oppose it.
What the hell are you trying to imply here?  If you're making a general statement, do not quote me as though it's a retort.  Nobody implied they had a right to kill anything.  I was merely pointing out the flaws in the question itself - there's no such thing as "random killing".  There is always a reason.
[/quote]
i was putting a definition of random killing, and not accusing you of anything.

there is no reason to kill, but abortions is not killing something
if ever the mother were to have an accident or her baby dies in her woob, should we accuse her of homicide ?
just because the woman is pregnant, it does not mean the baby will survive all 9 months in
Doctors in Canada always allow abortion as long it does not place the life of the woman in danger, I believe this is the code we should respect. we have no need for a law on abortions,
« Last Edit: October 17, 2014, 09:36:03 PM by Darkylighty » Logged
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« Reply #18 on: October 17, 2014, 10:42:46 PM »

All I can say, Darklylight, is that you should learn English better. Right now it is hard to understand what you mean, and it is apparent are misinterpreting some things that Rolina is saying. Until you can reply with coherent English don't think I will debate with you. Nothing against you, but at this point misunderstanding can very easily happen, which results in unnecessary red herrings, and the like.

I will however, say this: You do not understand Rolina's argument, and have misinterpreted what she has said. Also, I have no idea what you are saying either, so perhaps you do understand it and just cannot express your counterargument.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2014, 10:49:42 PM by Menaus » Logged

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« Reply #19 on: October 18, 2014, 02:55:44 PM »

Whew, so much tension here. Oh well, allow me to speak briefly about what I have felt about this:

Quote
there is no reason to kill, but abortions is not killing something
if ever the mother were to have an accident or her baby dies in her woob, should we accuse her of homicide ?
just because the woman is pregnant, it does not mean the baby will survive all 9 months in
Doctors in Canada always allow abortion as long it does not place the life of the woman in danger, I believe this is the code we should respect. we have no need for a law on abortions,

If you ask me, I oppose your ideas. Abortion, would it be accidental or with consent, is roughly equal to killing. It is about deliberately removing a baby from the womb of a woman, thus "murdering" the baby. A baby, albeit unborn, still has life and is human. A baby dying in the womb of an unfortunate mother is entirely different from abortion . Still, I will consider consider specific exceptions though (e.g. a sick/frail/weakened woman incapable of giving birth). Ironically, I didn't really care much about laws concerning abortions. It's all up to principles and conscience.

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Luna_blade
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« Reply #20 on: October 18, 2014, 03:37:48 PM »

Whew, so much tension here. Oh well, allow me to speak briefly about what I have felt about this:
Huh, sure feels tense here. I'm doing the same.
If you ask me, I oppose your ideas. Abortion, would it be accidental or with consent, is roughly equal to killing. It is about deliberately removing a baby from the womb of a woman, thus "murdering" the baby. A baby, albeit unborn, still has life and is human. A baby dying in the womb of an unfortunate mother is entirely different from abortion . Still, I will consider consider specific exceptions though (e.g. a sick/frail/weakened woman incapable of giving birth). Ironically, I didn't really care much about laws concerning abortions. It's all up to principles and conscience.
I guess we're not even sure if babies/embryo's have consciousness. I'm not even sure if that's the point for y'all, but it sure is important to me. Altough I think abortion is a personal choice, and should be legal.
All I can say, Darklylight, is that you should learn English better. Right now it is hard to understand what you mean, and it is apparent are misinterpreting some things that Rolina is saying. Until you can reply with coherent English don't think I will debate with you. Nothing against you, but at this point misunderstanding can very easily happen, which results in unnecessary red herrings, and the like.
I could actually follow his post quite good, but I agree with you.

I am disagreeing hoverer your point of view, We can choose whether or not to have sex. that is not for you to decided, you have the right to decided what you do with your own vaginas, but what others girls do with their own vaginas and what I do with my penis is of not concern to you, you being a woman does not make you more legitimate to judge what people do with sexual organ then individual males.
This is getting a bit offtopic.

You cannot repair a mistake with another mistake, death penalty is a mistake in itself, because when the guy is dead, he is gone, if ever we made a mistake and judge the wrong person, that innocent is dead, you cannot give him back his life.
Well you think death penalty is a mistake. Some people don't. But I agree with you. Fighting fire with fire is not the thing to do I think.
laws by themselves have no effect on crime, and there is no such proof that death penalty is discourageing crime, while prison in life is not.
Not a direct effect, but possible indirect. And how about all the ideas that fueled the making of these laws? They surely affect crime.
People who think before acting might reconsider and not kill somebody when there is probably punishment when he/she still does it.
At some point, all of us made mistakes in our lifes, by giving death penalty, you deny the possibility that the criminal may change and you stick him an evil ticket, 25 years in prison, as in Norway is enough for a life time, and if ever the person is incapable to change, they just keep him in jail for 5 more years. while the goal of death penalty is to punish, we should go towards rehabilitation.
I agree.
Dealt penalty does not prevent crime, the best way to prevent crime is to encourage education, I would free public education for all until university is a way better way to prevent crime then law and order. like I said, I prefer to see four criminals in liberty, then 1 innocent on the electric chair.
Possibly. The government stumbles sometimes or abuses their power and that's when there shouldn't be death penalty.
there is no reason to kill, but abortions is not killing something
That is something we could discuss. Is preventing an unborn human from living killing?
« Last Edit: October 19, 2014, 06:48:21 AM by Luna_blade, Reason: Was going to do it. » Logged

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« Reply #21 on: October 18, 2014, 03:40:59 PM »

@Menaus: Yeah, but at least we can give him credit for trying!

@Succubus: I agree that abortion is killing. ; Especially if there's a heart beat.
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« Reply #22 on: October 18, 2014, 11:51:45 PM »

All I can say, Darklylight, is that you should learn English better. Right now it is hard to understand what you mean, and it is apparent are misinterpreting some things that Rolina is saying. Until you can reply with coherent English don't think I will debate with you. Nothing against you, but at this point misunderstanding can very easily happen, which results in unnecessary red herrings, and the like.

I will however, say this: You do not understand Rolina's argument, and have misinterpreted what she has said. Also, I have no idea what you are saying either, so perhaps you do understand it and just cannot express your counterargument.

EDIT : I don't think you are in a good position to say if I did not understand.
her points were easy to understand
1 Prochoice is bullshit since you had the choice to not have sex.
I reject this said logic, people have the right to have use without accepting everything that happen in their bodies.

2 Death Penalty Prevent crimes
I totally reject that affirmation, it is false.
And I say Death is final, when you die, that is it, your are gone. So any innocent judged by this method cannot get his life returned.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2014, 11:59:59 PM by Darkylighty » Logged
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« Reply #23 on: October 19, 2014, 12:14:34 AM »

What makes me in a bad position? I know English. It is my first language. You often make grammar mistakes in a way that makes what you are saying not completely comprehensible. What is wrong with this position?
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« Reply #24 on: October 19, 2014, 02:31:45 AM »

What makes me in a bad position? I know English. It is my first language. You often make grammar mistakes in a way that makes what you are saying not completely comprehensible. What is wrong with this position?

we call it a natal language, but what ever
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« Reply #25 on: October 19, 2014, 10:17:19 AM »

Killing is wrong in any given way, but i believe in this "You kill someone with a sword and you will be killed with a sword". So what goes around comes around.
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« Reply #26 on: October 19, 2014, 10:48:46 AM »

Oh yeah. The rule of karma....


And for Death Penalty,  I only want to apply this to people who do extremely vile crimes and are obviously (or at least proven) guilty.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2014, 11:01:34 AM by Succubus » Logged
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« Reply #27 on: October 19, 2014, 01:31:52 PM »

If you fight by swords, you die by swords = This is said by Jesus in the Christian Bible, actually... Not sure which verse it was, or even the exact quoting, so I paraphrase it... I guess.

Killing someone likely makes the most sense under self-defense, so you can steal your opponent's sword and use it on them, maybe. (Assuming they're still attacking after you "stole" their weapon, and you have no other way of defending yourself.)
« Last Edit: October 19, 2014, 01:38:37 PM by Fox » Logged

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« Reply #28 on: October 19, 2014, 04:54:30 PM »

Luna_blade : well the government is not always evil, sure it can be evil, but that is what happen you don't place counter power or do not limit power.  sure we can't have governemental control of education, but in democratic society like ours, this will not happen, another reason why communist need democracy, but this is not on topics.

My argument is simple, abortion is not murder
- the birth is an absolute future, the baby can dies before the birth.
- Abortion is a personnal choice
- people have the right to do what they want with theirs sexual organ.

Sorry FOX: but I oppose strongly stand your grounds laws, just because someone stole from you, does not mean you have to administer your own justice, you should instead get help from the state and proceed to a trials.
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« Reply #29 on: October 19, 2014, 07:52:04 PM »

@Darkylighty: If you were held a prisoner in someone's home deep in some deserted place away from the public, and the person holding you hostage has already tortured you/doing rated XXX stuff, and proved that they were willing to kill you if you were to escape? What would you do? Let yourself die? And whoever else was held captive/may have escaped as well?  ; I dislike the idea of killing as well, but sometimes, there's just no obvious/easy other way, unfortunately...

This is like taking the better of two evils...

Everything else outside of self-defense can easily be controversial in my opinion. (Even if one wants to kill themselves, it could be that their just not in their right mind due to depression.)

Quote
- people have the right to do what they want with theirs sexual organ.
So do you think indecent exposure is okay?
« Last Edit: October 19, 2014, 09:02:38 PM by Fox » Logged

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Remember kids! Before you go on that interview, remember to wash your hands in teawater! *Coughs on hand* (Excuse me, I just coughed up a little teawater, so they're still clean!) You wouldn't want that hiring manager to be unimpressed.

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