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Author Topic: Golden Sun 2 Redux  (Read 9763 times)
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« on: 26, August, 2013, 07:21:49 PM »

Golden Sun 2 Redux is a hack which seeks to rebalance and up the challenge of this game in a similar way to what Grandia Redux did for Grandia.

Unlike other "challenge" mods for Golden Sun 2, this hack will completely revise the entire class and battle system in an attempt to address a number of fundamental flaws with Golden Sun 2 and make overall combat more fun and strategic to play.

Main features:
---- New class system!
Class changes as a result of Djinn will no longer impact character stats whatsoever. Instead players will be able to buy rings from vendors which replace stat multipliers. This change seeks to improve versatility by allowing players to choose what kind of character stats they wish to run independent of the Djinn they use, and more importantly: promote Djinn usage without fear of losing important stats.

---- New djinn and summon system!
Because Djinn no longer reduce stats when used, players are now free to spam them in battle. Summons have been adjusted not to deal percentile damage anymore, but instead a variety of effects ranging from physical to support. Summon rushing is no longer a viable strategy to trivialize boss fights, but the player is not at a disadvantage for setting their djinn on standby either. It's up to the player to take an advantage of both djinn AND summons to win boss fights, often alternating between the two.

---- Character roles!
Each character now posses two unique abilities independent of class: Innate traits, and innate psynergy, both fairly gameplay-changing. For example, Garet's innate trait allows him to heal twice as much as other characters, and his innate psynergy allows all summoned djinn to recover faster.

---- Breaking the elemental limits!
All elemental power and resistance have been raised by 55 in order to compete with physical damage and defense. Unlike the original Golden Sun which trivialized elemental levels, here they are key to winning fights.

---- New weapon system!
Weapons will function completely different in Golden Sun 2 Redux, each with unique properties.

Sword: Guaranteed unleash each time you attack. While not as strong as physical-based psynergy, they make up with a balance between damage and consistency, making them quite suitable for random battles.

Mace: Without a guaranteed unleash they tend to deal less damage than swords. However they make up for it by granting defense and elemental resistance bonuses, making them suitable for a character wishing to spec a "tank-y" setup.

Axe: NO UNLEASHES. However they possess naturally high attack, boost elemental power, and grant bonuses to PP. This makes axes suitable for players who prefer to spam physical-psynergy over normal attacks, or wish to be casters.

Staff= Grants Elemental Power and replaces your physical attack with a spell at zero cost. Their strength lies in their ability to strike multiple enemies at once and increase the magical abilities of your characters.

---- The more the merrier! Isaac's party joins early!
In order to address a fundamental gameplay issue in GS2, Isaac's party will join you halfway through the game rather than near the ending. Dungeon order and puzzles will be re-arranged to allow the player access to Lemuria almost as soon as they obtain the ship.

---- Garet's notes? Directions where to go?
While Felix was stuck trying to find a ship, Isaac and Co. were out exploring the seas! With a new dungeon order, the player may require a bit of direction where to go. Garet in all his lard and big damn glory dropped notes all over Weyard! His butterfingers haven't done him any good, but they do provide helpful hints to his fellow explorers.

Other minor changes include ABOLISHING the link game option, just for quality sake since this is not intended to be a link game. The "summon" function was also changed to permanently show, allowing players to predict djinn usage and cast summons the same turn.

Right now this hack is in very early progress, but I'm open to ideas. All the "unique" character abilities have been settled, so at this point I just need to plan class psynergy and individual items.
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« Reply #1 on: 27, August, 2013, 04:52:26 AM »

But don't unleashes always strike only a single target, even if the ability they use is multi-targeting? How did you get past this for Staves?
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« Reply #2 on: 27, August, 2013, 11:53:55 AM »

But don't unleashes always strike only a single target, even if the ability they use is multi-targeting? How did you get past this for Staves?
As of now, I cannot make them multi-target. But it's still possible to grant unleashes spell damage, or to bestow spells which ARE multi-target. Considering staves also raise elemental damage up to 100, my description is not wrong.
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« Reply #3 on: 28, August, 2013, 08:35:19 AM »

Consider a hybrid approach - an attack unleash that deals damage to a single target, and a bestowed unleash that, while doing a little less, strikes an area.
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« Reply #4 on: 28, August, 2013, 12:10:08 PM »

Cool stuff, when's it released?
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« Reply #5 on: 28, August, 2013, 07:22:19 PM »

Cool stuff, when's it released?
Just started.

The hardest part is balancing between the different EPAs, Psynergy usage, djinn arrangement, and niches.
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« Reply #6 on: 28, August, 2013, 11:27:30 PM »

This hack will completely revise the entire class and battle system in an attempt to address a number of fundamental flaws with Golden Sun 2 and make overall combat more fun and strategic to play.
I would like to see a big message of you explaining with details what and why are you going to change system of Golden Sun 2. I say this because some of your ideas destroy the singularity of Golden Sun games.

---- New class system!
Class changes as a result of Djinn will no longer impact character stats whatsoever. Instead players will be able to buy rings from vendors which replace stat multipliers. This change seeks to improve versatility by allowing players to choose what kind of character stats they wish to run independent of the Djinn they use, and more importantly: promote Djinn usage without fear of losing important stats.
Class system based in Djinns (along with the whole djinn concept, inclunding bonus stats of djinns) is the thing that makes Golden Sun UNIQUE comparing it with other RPGs. And you want to change that for a "buy a ring in a shop system"?

---- New djinn and summon system!
Because Djinn no longer reduce stats when used, players are now free to spam them in battle. Summons have been adjusted not to deal percentile damage anymore, but instead a variety of effects ranging from physical to support. Summon rushing is no longer a viable strategy to trivialize boss fights, but the player is not at a disadvantage for setting their djinn on standby either. It's up to the player to take an advantage of both djinn AND summons to win boss fights, often alternating between the two.
I like part of this idea, summons system in Golden Sun is stupid, Enemies with big hp die fast with invocations and some enemies with low hp survive to invocations. So if you change that is positive. However i dont like at all the other part of the idea, using a djinn in Golden Sun involves a risk due the change of stats/class. But considering that risk is part of the strategy of Golden Sun, if you remove that you are making the game simple.

---- Character roles!
Each character now posses two unique abilities independent of class: Innate traits, and innate psynergy, both fairly gameplay-changing. For example, Garet's innate trait allows him to heal twice as much as other characters, and his innate psynergy allows all summoned djinn to recover faster.
This idea seems to be interesting, but after reading your example of "Garet The Healer" i consider that you need to think more about this.

---- Breaking the elemental limits!
All elemental power and resistance have been raised by 55 in order to compete with physical damage and defense. Unlike the original Golden Sun which trivialized elemental levels, here they are key to winning fights.
This idea seems fairly acceptable.

---- New weapon system!
Weapons will function completely different in Golden Sun 2 Redux, each with unique properties.

Sword: Guaranteed unleash each time you attack. While not as strong as physical-based psynergy, they make up with a balance between damage and consistency, making them quite suitable for random battles.

Mace: Without a guaranteed unleash they tend to deal less damage than swords. However they make up for it by granting defense and elemental resistance bonuses, making them suitable for a character wishing to spec a "tank-y" setup.

Axe: NO UNLEASHES. However they possess naturally high attack, boost elemental power, and grant bonuses to PP. This makes axes suitable for players who prefer to spam physical-psynergy over normal attacks, or wish to be casters.

Staff= Grants Elemental Power and replaces your physical attack with a spell at zero cost. Their strength lies in their ability to strike multiple enemies at once and increase the magical abilities of your characters.
I like part of the idea, specializated weapons would be really interesting for the game. But why you have to classify the weapons in 4 types? Imagine a sword with less damage than usual swords but with a bonus in Elemental Powers, for example.

---- The more the merrier! Isaac's party joins early!
In order to address a fundamental gameplay issue in GS2, Isaac's party will join you halfway through the game rather than near the ending. Dungeon order and puzzles will be re-arranged to allow the player access to Lemuria almost as soon as they obtain the ship.
I want to ask, how is this (and all your changes) going to affect to the "Import party of Golden Sun 1 System"?

---- Garet's notes? Directions where to go?
While Felix was stuck trying to find a ship, Isaac and Co. were out exploring the seas! With a new dungeon order, the player may require a bit of direction where to go. Garet in all his lard and big damn glory dropped notes all over Weyard! His butterfingers haven't done him any good, but they do provide helpful hints to his fellow explorers.
I consider this unnecesary, the game dont requires a guide inside.

Other minor changes include ABOLISHING the link game option, just for quality sake since this is not intended to be a link game. The "summon" function was also changed to permanently show, allowing players to predict djinn usage and cast summons the same turn.
I have to ask this, it would hurt to the player to have a link game option?
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« Reply #7 on: 29, August, 2013, 02:08:12 AM »

Golden Sun Redux is not just a rebalance hack, but a complete mechanics change to everything in Golden Sun. I'm not trying to please those who want to play GS2 again, but rather a new experience entirely.

---- New class system!
Class changes as a result of Djinn will no longer impact character stats whatsoever. Instead players will be able to buy rings from vendors which replace stat multipliers. This change seeks to improve versatility by allowing players to choose what kind of character stats they wish to run independent of the Djinn they use, and more importantly: promote Djinn usage without fear of losing important stats.
Class system based in Djinns (along with the whole djinn concept, inclunding bonus stats of djinns) is the thing that makes Golden Sun UNIQUE comparing it with other RPGs. And you want to change that for a "buy a ring in a shop system"?
Yes. Because with stats dependent on your class and djinn means you are limited in choices, and it actually has a counterproductive effect. I want to increase player versatility and redefine the djinn system. If the player wants to run a psynergy-tank on Felix, then they shouldn't be limited by the djinn they use.

---- New djinn and summon system!
Because Djinn no longer reduce stats when used, players are now free to spam them in battle. Summons have been adjusted not to deal percentile damage anymore, but instead a variety of effects ranging from physical to support. Summon rushing is no longer a viable strategy to trivialize boss fights, but the player is not at a disadvantage for setting their djinn on standby either. It's up to the player to take an advantage of both djinn AND summons to win boss fights, often alternating between the two.
I like part of this idea, summons system in Golden Sun is stupid, Enemies with big hp die fast with invocations and some enemies with low hp survive to invocations. So if you change that is positive. However i dont like at all the other part of the idea, using a djinn in Golden Sun involves a risk due the change of stats/class. But considering that risk is part of the strategy of Golden Sun, if you remove that you are making the game simple.
Golden Sun ReDux is balanced around using Djinn and Summons because PP is no longer freely expendable. A character like Felix will be able to use his EPA about 3 times, then need to recover.

I want melee builds to be defined by the Djinn, which largely replace the original roles of EPA and Unleashes. Melee characters are balanced around Djinn only being able to be used once every two turns. As you progress later on, you gain more djinn with the same effect, allowing you to use powerful multiplier synergy multiple times in a row.

Due to the importance of using Djinn as ammo, I cannot have them affect character stats. For Mage-type characters the Djinn still impact elemental levels and spell choice, making them much still risky to use on someone like Sheba.

Summons take a more support role, making them more useful mid-battle than spammed at the start. Because of their importance used mid-battle, the "Summon" option is permanently active in battle. (And don't worry about the news summons, you will still be seeing Judgment and Charon returning in a different form.)

---- Character roles!
Each character now posses two unique abilities independent of class: Innate traits, and innate psynergy, both fairly gameplay-changing. For example, Garet's innate trait allows him to heal twice as much as other characters, and his innate psynergy allows all summoned djinn to recover faster.
This idea seems to be interesting, but after reading your example of "Garet The Healer" i consider that you need to think more about this.
Garet is not a healer, though I have updated him since the post. Specifically he is the slooowest character, second ONLY to Felix in melee damage.

Although I originally wanted to take advantage of his lower speed, this can be achieved with "Bestow Psynergy" items unrelated to his Innate Psynergy. I want to move Djinn Recovery to a Bestow Psynergy item, and balance Garet with a new ability "Guard Aura" which reduces damage on THREE allies by 50% for that turn, and heals a flat 100 HP.

---- New weapon system!
Weapons will function completely different in Golden Sun 2 Redux, each with unique properties.

Sword: Guaranteed unleash each time you attack. While not as strong as physical-based psynergy, they make up with a balance between damage and consistency, making them quite suitable for random battles.

Mace: Without a guaranteed unleash they tend to deal less damage than swords. However they make up for it by granting defense and elemental resistance bonuses, making them suitable for a character wishing to spec a "tank-y" setup.

Axe: NO UNLEASHES. However they possess naturally high attack, boost elemental power, and grant bonuses to PP. This makes axes suitable for players who prefer to spam physical-psynergy over normal attacks, or wish to be casters.

Staff= Grants Elemental Power and replaces your physical attack with a spell at zero cost. Their strength lies in their ability to strike multiple enemies at once and increase the magical abilities of your characters.
I like part of the idea, specializated weapons would be really interesting for the game. But why you have to classify the weapons in 4 types? Imagine a sword with less damage than usual swords but with a bonus in Elemental Powers, for example.
That is not outside the realm of possibilities. Although Isaac cannot wield staves, part of his balance is wielding the unique Gaia Blade, which essentially functions like a staff.

---- The more the merrier! Isaac's party joins early!
In order to address a fundamental gameplay issue in GS2, Isaac's party will join you halfway through the game rather than near the ending. Dungeon order and puzzles will be re-arranged to allow the player access to Lemuria almost as soon as they obtain the ship.
I want to ask, how is this (and all your changes) going to affect to the "Import party of Golden Sun 1 System"?
By abolishing it.

---- Garet's notes? Directions where to go?
While Felix was stuck trying to find a ship, Isaac and Co. were out exploring the seas! With a new dungeon order, the player may require a bit of direction where to go. Garet in all his lard and big damn glory dropped notes all over Weyard! His butterfingers haven't done him any good, but they do provide helpful hints to his fellow explorers.
I consider this unnecesary, the game dont requires a guide inside.

My fears are players too use to the original Golden Sun will get lost. Aqua Rock for example is not entered until Mia joins the party, and the Anemos Inner Sanctum is also accessed much earlier, without the 72-Djinn requirement. By simply leaving a few hints where to go, I hope to resolve this.

Other minor changes include ABOLISHING the link game option, just for quality sake since this is not intended to be a link game. The "summon" function was also changed to permanently show, allowing players to predict djinn usage and cast summons the same turn.
I have to ask this, it would hurt to the player to have a link game option?
Yes. Linking the game serves no purpose whatsoever, and will mess up the intended progression and balance. Removing the Link Game option is a needed change that makes it fool-proof. Keep in mind Isaac and Co. will come with ALL GS1 Djinn by default.
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« Reply #8 on: 29, August, 2013, 04:45:40 PM »

What about PVP mode?
Are you going to remove that of the game?
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« Reply #9 on: 29, August, 2013, 09:42:06 PM »

What about PVP mode?
Are you going to remove that of the game?
You are free to enter the Link Game arena, but I'm not balancing for it.
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« Reply #10 on: 30, August, 2013, 08:50:27 PM »

Let's be honest - how many people actually use the PvP functionality?  It's a low enough number that they didn't include it in DD at all.
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« Reply #11 on: 30, August, 2013, 10:13:47 PM »

Let's be honest - how many people actually use the PvP functionality?  It's a low enough number that they didn't include it in DD at all.
Oh come on, of course not many people use the PvP, but is because:
1º It can be hard to find people with a GBA and one Golden Sun game near.
2º I attempted to play many times Golden Sun online with an emulator but sometimes dont works and speed really sucks.

I would use a Knife to cut one of my fingers to play an online Golden Sun, in the main reason of my presence in this Forum is because i though that someone here was able to help me with that.
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« Reply #12 on: 31, August, 2013, 01:09:00 AM »

The Monster Arena in GS1 was just about the only place offensive Psynergy was actually useful, because after a few fights the enemies had enough Defence that Psynergy did more damage than physical attacks and unleashes.
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« Reply #13 on: 31, August, 2013, 01:45:08 AM »

Golden Sun ReDux will feature many music changes. Among the changes, Air's Rock will have THREE different themes for each section, and the overworld music will use tracks from GS1 rather than GS2.

I'll also be modifying the battle music so that the priority is as follows: Isaac > Jenna > Everyone else.

The "Reunion" is really an important part of this hack more so than the original Golden Sun because you do not get Douse until Mia joins, and you temporarily lose the ability to use Hover after Jupiter Lighthouse, meaning you cannot leave Contigo until you obtain another Hove Gem in Anemos Inner Sanctum.
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« Reply #14 on: 05, September, 2013, 01:22:23 PM »

I'll also be modifying the battle music so that the priority is as follows: Isaac > Jenna > Everyone else.
Why guay?
Felix is the main character of GS2.
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« Reply #15 on: 05, September, 2013, 02:00:49 PM »

I'll also be modifying the battle music so that the priority is as follows: Isaac > Jenna > Everyone else.
Why guay?
Felix is the main character of GS2.
Everyone uses Felix, not everyone uses Jenna or Isaac. Sometimes they use neither.

I've designed Felix as the a glass cannon with various abilities to ignore armor and restore PP, so that means he is pretty much glued to every team.  If Felix decides the battle theme, then the player wont get to hear any new music.
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« Reply #16 on: 18, April, 2014, 05:29:17 PM »

So from the Cbox, it seems this is up and running again?
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« Reply #17 on: 20, April, 2014, 08:27:39 AM »

Damn. I totally missed this topic.
I would like to present some ideas which I came up with for my own hack:

I always thought that GS lacked some difficulty (otherwise I didn't want to make a hack). There was this tiny piece of gameplay in GS1 where you actually have to watch out with your money. However this only occurred in Altin while buying equipment... So what I wanted to do for my hack is to really tune the amount of money needed for equipment. This way players need to think more about which equipment they buy.

Also something I wanted to do for my hack, is making different enemies. I mean, in GS you can just attack all-out and win every battle. But if you made some more monsters that have certain resistances, battles become harder. You could at least do something like this for bosses.

Also give enemies more status giving attacks. Combined with a lowered luck stat for every character, you will actually need antidotes and help from the sanctuary Healer. Especially the last part could be something to focus on.

Also the notes thing is not such a bad idea. Because how many players found out on their own how to get certain weapons from monsters? Especially the problem that not every player used Psyenergy (explained above) and barely triggered the random numbers. So what you are doing here tackles the problem in two ways.
You could also add some notes that tell you to go back to places where there puzzles that you couldn't solve yet, because you did not have the required Psyenergy yet.


Hope this helped. Happy
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« Reply #18 on: 20, April, 2014, 03:32:35 PM »

I am ready to help you but first what kind of help do you need?
Well there was discovered enemy stat thing so you could umm.. add code so we can use it.
This hack must have something epic in story too.
More like make Saturos and Menardi live.
or no.Garet helps but why...
They must prevent Felix to light lighthouses so it must be someone else who helps.Not Garet.
more ideas? I have free time now so I posted but I won't help much. Sorry.
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15, November, 2020, 03:45:26 PM
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30, October, 2020, 11:10:23 PM
Salanewt: ... Actually, it's almost time for me to post an update on the forum. It's been coming along really nicely overall, and it was only a couple months or so ago that I added some new status effects to the game.
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Daddy Poi's Oily Gorillas: Being able to convert IPS files to text files to also supporting commenting, and convert back to IPS after changes.... sounds like a fun strategy? 
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Salanewt: That's awesome! I'm pretty good; been working on an AI Overhaul project and have made some nice progress in the past couple weeks; the goal for tonight is to add Deadbeard to GS2 and then I can move onto something new.
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Daddy Poi's Oily Gorillas: I'm having a thought. So I know Atrius's editor is slow at saving sprites.... So I've been thinking.   I am considering another console program.  This time, for importing and exporting sprites/animations. Image files (for sprites), binary files (for animation data), and maybe binary or text files for Settings. Would certainly be cool if it works out. - Console programs are fun, when you can (at least temporarily) cheat out making a full interface editor for them. =P
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JupiterDjinn: Just got the reply. Ok my question is: how can I get the tea editor on Android, because I already have an emulator. But no computer.
31, March, 2020, 07:18:29 PM
Salanewt: Sure thing!
31, March, 2020, 03:38:27 PM
JupiterDjinn: Can I have a question answered?
28, March, 2020, 12:50:13 AM
Salanewt: I want to shrink it down in size later, but yup!

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