Social Network Banking

[Daddy Poi's Oily Gorillas]

So, does Social Networking and Banking mix?

From what I heard on the news, it seemed like Facebook was going to go into banking... (Probably starting in Europe...) I think they may have to get approval from certain people, though..?

They have tried one values system before, known as Facebook Credits around 2011-2012, but I think it failed mainly because they were only used for games/apps, probably couldn't give them to friends, and weren't useful...

But if Facebook turns into a bank, what does that mean for everyone?

Will they too also use it as a means for Verification? (Like Paypal?)
Will we see people giving money to each other for likes and comments on posts? Etc?

[Thunder-squall]

Micro-transactions and peer-to-peer lending are a thing, so if face book made it easier for friends to share money, then that'd be awesome.  And recently the BBC (radio, at least) did focus on why money-transfer fees to Africa are the highest (on average) in the world.  If facebook is throwing its hat into the ring and adding more competition to that, then awesome.

One reason why money-transfer fees to Africa are so expensive seems to be due to the physical cash, and the need to physically guard it.  Obviously facebook has no inherent advantage with physical goods, but with digital goods?  As digital phone-to-phone money-transfers become more streamlined of a thing, then I definitely think facebook could add some value propositions.

But a simple first-world application could be if some friends decide they want to go on a road trip.  Facebook could be used to set up a "mini Kickstarter," such that the trip would only be confirmed once the requisite number of people each put in the appropriate amount of money.

Frankly, this is the first I'm hearing about facebook getting into banking, but it immediately strikes me as making a lot of sense.

---
Facebook is already used for verification, and people already pay each other for comments and posts.

[Daddy Poi's Oily Gorillas]

Facebook is already used for verification, and people already pay each other for comments and posts.

Why am I always vague? I mean:

-Yes, I know Facebook has verification by phone... But to me, that's not really verifying your name? (Or is it?) What I meant was whether credit cards, SSNs, debit/bank account be put into the Verification process... and to what limits it will be required.

-Yeah, that's pretty obvious, but I meant if it will be easily done without having to gather any other data. (Which I bet is a yes.) (For example, can you only give money to your friends? Although, I would think that Businesses coud count to... But Individual friendless profiles, maybe as well...)

[Thunder-squall]

-Yes, I know Facebook has verification by phone... But to me, that's not really verifying your name? (Or is it?) What I meant was whether credit cards, SSNs, debit/bank account be put into the Verification process... and to what limits it will be required.

That's a really cool point.  But I think then you're talking more about virtual citizenship, rather than about social banking.

[Daddy Poi's Oily Gorillas]

Actually, I'm talking about reducing criminal activity that may go on.  Be it age laws, theft laws, or anything else...

[Thunder-squall]

"Age Laws" refer to identity, so of course people can bypass identity-based laws if they can make up any identity they want.

But theft?  Why do you think theft would be more of a problem?

[Daddy Poi's Oily Gorillas]

Those were just examples...
@age: Maybe... But connecting things like an SSN to a name is kind of hard to fake without identity theft. ; And then if you let underaged use your account for inappropriate stuff, you're ofcourse held accountable, etc. ; (Do you even know what is attached to your SSN?)
@theft: Do you think most crime has to do with money? (Not all, just most.)
Also, I forgot to mention taxes...

Just assume: What would the Gov't do? And don't go thinking that everything they do is logical.

[Thunder-squall]

You haven't given a single concrete example of an actual crime we should be wary of.  You're just fear mongering. C'mon, now.

[Daddy Poi's Oily Gorillas]

I'm not even sure if that's really for me to say? (Maybe you claim you're going to give a service, someone pays you... the service turns out bitter, and now they need someone to sue? ; Maybe you're selling something stolen or illegal... etc. As you can see, I'm randomly guessing....)


So this is my question for you: ( I made my guesses, so it's your turn. ;) )
-Why do Government banks require your Personal Information? (Including SSN)


That's the question I had in mind when talking about the Verification thing. I thought it was obvious at first, but I guess not? (It's also assuming that Facebook will work like other banks instead of the anonymous Bitcoin. I haven't looked into it that much to know how Fb'll do it. So your guess is as good as mine.)


These banks require SSN... Social Security Number.... Your Government Identity Number thingy. That all U.S. citizens have. (I think.) Guess what else? It's usually one of the first few things they ask for.

Union First Market: https://www.bankatunion.com/onlineserv/HB/Login.cgi?runmode=REGISTRATION
Well's Fargo: https://online.wellsfargo.com/das/channel/enrollDisplay
Bank of America: https://secure.bankofamerica.com/login/enroll/entry/olbEnroll.go?reason=model_enroll
Chase: https://chaseonline.chase.com/public/enroll/IdentifyUser.aspx?LOB=RBGLogon
PNC Bank: https://www.onlinebanking.pnc.com/alservlet/OnlineBankingServlet?userId=enroll&origin=p#llblock
Bank of the West: https://etimebanker.bankofthewest.com/BOW/Enrollment/Enrollment.aspx

Practically all of the legal-well-known U.S. banks require them, as far as I know. ; So yeah, if you ask me, I'd say they'd do it to be copying the others?? Hm...

[Thunder-squall]

I know you as TeaWater.  Therefore we can interact.

If I don't know you are you, then I cannot interact with you.

For the government to interact with me, they must have some means of recognizing or knowing me.  They don't need to know *everything* about me.  But they must have some means of recognizing me as me, otherwise we can have no relationship, and no meaningful interaction.

The SSN is one simple option.

... Does that answer the question?

What do you want me to be afraid of next?

[Daddy Poi's Oily Gorillas]

I'm not asking you to be afraid of anything. (Not sure what made you think that's what I was implying..) I'm more just curious...

@Answer: But then we could just use usernames, still...  (Somehow, I think you're missing the point... but oh well.)

The SSN: The "No dup. acct. policy"?

[Thunder-squall]

Isn't the SSN just another username?

[Daddy Poi's Oily Gorillas]

More like user number, haha... But I guess so.

It's made up of Area Number, Group Number, and Serial Number.  Separated by dashes. - And it's possible that some information may be attached to this number in Gov't databases

[Thunder-squall]

And it's possible that some information may be attached to this number in Gov't databases

Obviously.
Point being?
It's the same thing with user names too.

[Daddy Poi's Oily Gorillas]

Point being: Tracking your stuff with limited control.
Usernames make it easier to have unreliable data/control... to a degree.
But that statement wasn't really a highlight that I wanted to go over.



There's so much data I can imagine Gov't databases to have... (I don't know all of it, though.) ; Example ideas are things like family tree/origin/race, your birth, countries you may have visited (passport), assets like house and car, money you get from your job, credit score, education, criminal record, work permits, and other permits/licenses (including photo), etc...  I'm pretty sure Usernames don't have all that data linked to them... So it might not be 100% the same, obviously. (And don't think I'm trying to make you concerned... It's possible it could be more useful than not, but anyway... It is something to talk about.)


One curiosity I have is how much Facebook will become a "requirement" for success... I believe it will always be optional, but I guess I like to analyze things...


I don't believe I gave my opinion about Facebook turning into a bank. My opinion is "Awesome!" just like yours.  Regardless of whether they have extra security measures or not. (I haven't decided if I'd use it, My current thoughts are:   But if there are no additional fees involved (Ex: transfer fees)... and if it doesn't require information I don't have... then maybe.)

[Thunder-squall]

Point being: Tracking your stuff with limited control.

A synonym of "point" in this context might be conclusion, hypothesis, theory, or idea.

What you listed wasn't a point, but a general topic.

There's so much data I can imagine Gov't databases to have... (I don't know all of it, though.) ; Example ideas are things like family tree/origin/race, your birth, countries you may have visited (passport), assets like house and car, money you get from your job, credit score, education, criminal record, work permits, and other permits/licenses (including photo), etc...  I'm pretty sure Usernames don't have all that data linked to them... So it might not be 100% the same, obviously. (And don't think I'm trying to make you concerned... It's possible it could be more useful than not, but anyway... It is something to talk about.)

Are you basically asking why a government might need to have information on us?

The obvious answers are (1) voting, (2) taxes, (3) planning and distributing government services.

The questionable answers are crime-prevention and policing, which citizens are constantly wary of.

One curiosity I have is how much Facebook will become a "requirement" for success... I believe it will always be optional, but I guess I like to analyze things...

It won't be.

[Daddy Poi's Oily Gorillas]

Are you basically asking why a government might need to have information on us?

Not exactly... I think I knew about it for taxes, yes...  Citizenship & age is for voting, yes,... and services, yes as well... Social Security is a Gov't program... so.... My thought was that sometimes there's information that is accessible even when it doesn't need to be... in some cases... But anyway... (Assuming anyone with your SSN can look up that information? I'm not sure how it all works, though.)

Edit: Crime-prevention sort of isn't questionable if you have to have a Criminal Record... I say "sort-of"... as in "helps prevent"... not as in "completely prevents"

It won't be.

When I quoted "requirement"... I was thinking about ease of access... Not the fact that it'd actually would be required, if that makes sense. Sometimes I quote words when I don't mean their exact definition. (Although, I can see how it might make it stand out more, which is unfortunate.)

Or are you saying it won't be optional?

I can almost imagine Facebook having the potential to replace the need for giving companies an SSN as an identity number... (Esp. if you connect the info that the SSN is connected to to your Fb account.) (It's hard to know which companies you can trust, so...) Atleast then you might could control data flow? Hm? ... In one way, it may also help since friends can vouch for you if there happens to be a concern on id theft? Um... I really haven't thought much about this, so don't take it too strongly.

[Thunder-squall]

I can almost imagine Facebook having the potential to replace the need for giving companies an SSN as an identity number...

Makes sense, since Facebook will know a lot more about you than the government will.  And 'big data' companies already have quite a bit of experience rooting out unusual actors with diverse data sets.

I think facebook might be an alternative to the SSN for banks, but it won't be for government related stuff.  I.e. you won't be able to vote with your facebook account unless it's also linked with your SSN somehow.  In which case it's just an extension, not an alternative.

[Daddy Poi's Oily Gorillas]

Well, yeah... Seems kinda strange if you think about the security of an SSN?:
http://www.fastcompany.com/1305136/facebook-new-algorithm-can-guess-your-ssn
http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2011/08/01/how-face-recognition-can-be-used-to-get-your-social-security-number/
(They only get the first 5 numbers, but not the serial. Which means you could do brute force for 4 numbers. ~10k rounds...)

Random gimmick: http://www.hoax-slayer.com/facebook-social-security-login-hoax.shtml

[Thunder-squall]

Yup.  So nothing's going to be secret soon enough.  And today we can hide "in the crowd," but big data analysis is quickly becoming such that we won't be able to do that either. *sigh*. What a world.