Theory behind why adepts exist

[Thunder-squall]

We know that the golden sun event can hyper-evolve life.  Maybe once upon a time everyone was a light-adept, and many generations their connection to 'the force' diminished.

Then again, it seems that the energies were conscientiously split up.  So maybe adepts are descendants of ancients who stayed behind specifically to guard the light houses?  And when they did that, they split their power up on purpose?

Then again, we only have elemental djin, so does that suggest that the energies don't naturally want to be unified?

Then again, is Mud water, or is it earth?  Is Steam fire, water, or air?  Maybe the djinn themselves aren't actually mono-elemental at all.

Working on lore is tough, but I know we recently go people who are interested in this stuff, so...

[Luna_blade]

 :!:Already made an edit. V 0.1
AH straight up my alley. I don't do this stuff much though...
Anyway here is some stuff I came up with, and I partially got from another source:
Alchemy = Force (not the Mars one) & Matter
Void = Nothing
Elements actually consist out of Alchemy

Concerning the tiniest particles:
What if those are all made up from even smaller Alchemy-particles and the tiniest particles are like the real-life elements (protons determine the element).
[spoiler]Side note: You also said something about Psyenergy Vortexes being created by another dimension, and Weyards dimensions causes them there. I really like that idea.[/spoiler]
Alchemy and Void are complete counterparts.

There were probably a certain clan/family for each lighthouse. However, the only possible existing clans left are the proxians (maybe not..) and Mercury clan (cannon).

Now there is also this room in Mars lighthouse where 4 races are shown.
That chamber really makes an end to my theories, so imagine that the Human races is actually Golem/Dwarf.

There was some discussion about combining Djinni earlier. I repeat: I think they can be combined to an Alchemy Djinni. The elements is just one way to see Alchemy. You can see it as one power, four, eight or perhaps ten. Doesn't matter. Only Alchemy matters. Example of another seperation of Alchemy:
(Based it on Homestuck, for you who are know to it)

• Time
• Space
• Mind
• Heart
• Life
• Breath (either wind or breathing)
• Blood
• Doom

Uhh yeah I guess it was different.
Here also a list of the four elements explained.
Matter (called Space above)
Body (called Heart above)
Force
Mind
Uhh yeah also ruined this list. I fix it when I know the four extra aspects that were connected to the elements. I looked trough my notes, but haven't found a single word about this.
Well that's a proper example of what happens if you don't document everything.

We know that the golden sun event can hyper-evolve life.  Maybe once upon a time everyone was a light-adept, and many generations their connection to 'the force' diminished.

Life needs sun. But also a break from the sun. The moon is the anwser. For my fanfic I've already decided that there is also a Silver Moon.

Basically that's about it, what I think about the elements and theory stuff. I''l fix the lists once.

[Luna_blade]

My awnser to the title of your topic would be:
Adepts (magic/alchemy users) can be every living being. It is either given through exposure to Alchemy or through blood (I can't find the word for given through family bond/birth).
However some humans clearly have strong abilities and I thought there was more behind that.
Like said in the previous post, there were originally four main races that could harness the power of the elements. A part of each of those groups, after centuries of breeding with humans, was almost no different, except for the ability of being able to use Psyenergy. Example:
The dragons bred so long with the humans until the Proxians came into existence.
Mercury clan, same deal. Etc.

Only a part of each of those groups did this however. So I'm not sure what to do with those. Perhaps they became monsters (dragons, golems) Or fled or hid in Weyard.

[KyleRunner]

We can't forget that some people become adepts for being in contact with psynergy stones (or dust of them).

People in vale are adepts because the contact with the huge psynergy stones from Mt. Aleph.

People in Goroh have powers (Maha IS an adept) because the dust that is blown from Air Rock.

I tend to think that the only thing in Weyard that is made by a single element is the essence inside the elemental stars.

[Luna_blade]

EDIT V 0.1

It is either given through exposure to Alchemy (...)

This includes Psyenergy stones and dust.

http://goldensun.wikia.com/wiki/Alchemy
On this page, which might be pure fan specultion, I read somewhere that the four elements combined forms Alchemy/Philosopher's stone. And with that you can for example make Draught or turn something into someting else. Kraden sorta confirms this in Sol Sanctum.
The page also has Aristotle's elements.

Somewhere I heard that the Greek thought there were 5 elements:
(void) Eather/Order
They gave them all a specific three-dimensional objects to represent them.
(See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platonic_solid)

But when you think of the elements or Alchemy, it just doesn't feel like order and peace. They might actually be Chaos.
So the two opposing forces (Order & Chaos) cannot both be categorized. Only Chaos, which comes in many forms, can be. That's why there are only four elements representing Alchemy.

(Wow, I just thought all this stuff up. I'm actually pretty amazed by these theories even though I made them)

[Rolina]

There's multiple ways of looking at this, too.  Dark Dawn shows us that Darkness is more of an evolutionary force than Light, thanks to the very visible effects on monsters during the grave eclipse.  Furthermore, Light seems to act just the opposite - as a repulsive, resistant force.  As such, you could argue that Light is representative of Order, and gives things form, while Darkness is representative of Chaos, and allows things to grow and change.

There's many ways to interpret things, so there's no really to really bog down to one or another.  See if you can find other ideas floating around and see if anything strikes a bit of inspiration, and you can probably incorporate these things into your theory.

[Luna_blade]

Yeah lot's of ways to look at it.
I agree that dark is more of a progressive force.

[Rolina]

Not progressive.  Chaotic.  Chaos is not the same as Progress.  Both light and dark can be progressive, depending on the goal.  Choas out of control?  Then what you need is light to be progressive, to stabilize the world again.  That was the whole point behind DD's primary sidequest.

[KyleRunner]

Not progressive.  Chaotic.  Chaos is not the same as Progress.  Both light and dark can be progressive, depending on the goal.  Choas out of control?  Then what you need is light to be progressive, to stabilize the world again.  That was the whole point behind DD's primary sidequest.

Very cliché, by the way. It is the same as Final Fantasy III and IV.
I wish we could just forget about Dark Dawn... Pretend it didn't exist, kkkkk.
I'm just kidding, by the way.

[Thunder-squall]

I agree with the latest discussion about light and dark, and disagreed with tying them to 'order vs. chaos.'  I don't think dark is a more "evolutionary force," for example, as we've also seen the golden sun event hyper evolve animals into more intelligent and humanoid forms, and increase the intelligence of existing intelligent humanoids (i.e. someone supposedly becomes a light adept and gains the ability to do calculus).

I think civilizations (or civilized cultural norms) take time to form, and that dark creatures may have, in time, created communities of order, just as the creatures of light must have a long time ago.  Possibly, there might have been a distinction between good and evil, but I don't see much basis for order vs. chaos.

This is perhaps off topic, but it might be nice to look at another plateau like Weyard (or maybe the underside of Weyard) that has creatures evolved from dark energy effects, as opposed to from light energy effects.

I wish we could just forget about Dark Dawn... Pretend it didn't exist, kkkkk.
I'm just kidding, by the way.

If you take issue, then the thread about "What are the weird things in Golden Sun that we might want to fix?" is the perfect place to talk about it.

[Luna_blade]

This is perhaps off topic, but it might be nice to look at another plateau like Weyard (or maybe the underside of Weyard) that has creatures evolved from dark energy effects, as opposed to from light energy effects.

(I'll respond to the other things later)
Guess what I had in mind for my fanfiction? I think the creatures underneath Weyard are a sort of demons or monstrosities.

[Rolina]

The golden sun event doesn't coincide with light, though - not the way that DD seemed to present it.  The Golden Sun had to do with the four elements and restoring life - it's more like returning a decayed creature back to what it was meant to be all along.  Light is more like what was seen at the Apollo Sanctum.  It's harmful without protection, and is a powerful repelling force, pushing back any who can't defend themselves against it.  In high enough quantities, sure, it can overwhelm a person's nature and change them - as seen in the epilogue.  But I don't think it can be wielded like others say.  The kid who can use light in the epilogue is never seen actually using it, which leads me to think that he's either able to use Venus' Crystal aspect (ex:  Crystallux) or Jupiter's Celestial aspect (ex: Light Surge), both of which are light themed.

The strange thing is, while we see light and dark themselves in dark dawn, we only get how they work from the environment.  Nothing is seen using it - not even the so-called dark adepts, who can't seem to cast a spell to save their lives.  No, really.  We hacked them to pieces and the closest they got was Dark Barrier, which cost 0 PP and can easily be explained as them using a piece of their equipment as an item in battle.  In fact, they seemed to be more tech-oriented, so for all we know the actual manipulating of light/dark themselves can only be done through machines - natural beings can't use them.  Further evidence of this is in the ancient peoples, who build colossal alchemy machines all in the name of trying to overcome that.  We saw how well that worked out, didn't we?

[Thunder-squall]

I had assumed that the Golden Sun event and the Apollo sanctum were similar, but I'll look into it.

I don't recall Dark Dawn ever using the term 'Dark Adept,' but instead what we see from them are psi energy grenades and grappling hooks and steam punk stuff to get by without psi energy.  Therefore they seem more anti psi energy than dark adepts.

The exception to this may be the impact had on Sveta's brother, and the forming of the Chaos Chimera.  These would be the clues I'd look at to explore dark psi energy (if that's what it is), but I have yet to put in the leg work to do so.  But it does fit with eastern concepts that light identifies and distinguishes (it is the [individual] conscious), while dark nurtures and embraces (it is the [collective] unconsciousness )-- in this case, it removed the distinction between the three individuals and made them one [while yet retaining their individual identities].

---
Another fan idea I mentioned somewhere was the idea that using alchemy actually sucked out energy from alternate dimensions, causing psi energy vortexes to appear there (you can't create something from nothing).  Thus we'd have two dimensions sucking energy from one another, putting both in peril the more they used psi energy.  This idea was created solely for the purpose of building on the name 'dimensional crisis' and creating a set up where the community could work on something in the GS universe that yet was different from Weyard, but it does create motivation for a group that rejects the use of psi energy, and wishes to adapt to the spread of dark energy, rather than fight it using alchemy.

A 'dark adept' in this instance would not be one who can use dark psi energy, but one who can adjust to the darkness and survive it.

But as stated, I have not done the research to vet the idea, and I don't think developing a concept for a community project is required or even desirable in the short term.  I still think the notion of the dark energy adept is cool though.

[Rolina]

Nothing was stated about whether they were similar or different.  That's a key problem with Light and Dark in DD - they were said to exist, and were called the Fundaments.  But it was never actually explained what they were and how they behaved.  Pretty much no details were given.

[Thunder-squall]

I had assumed that the Golden Sun event and [whatever happened at the end of Dark Dawn] were similar, but I'll look into it.

Quick clarification on this:  I assumed both were similar due to the aesthetic similarities, as well as having a similar evolutionary effect on beasts.

[Luna_blade]

So I'm back with some things.
I no longer think that Dark is a more progressive force but perhaps chaotic.
Also If we don't seperate Void from the other things, Dark will be appointed as the element that means no growth at all, or anything for that instances.

The golden sun event doesn't coincide with light, though - not the way that DD seemed to present it.  The Golden Sun had to do with the four elements and restoring life - it's more like returning a decayed creature back to what it was meant to be all along.  Light is more like what was seen at the Apollo Sanctum.  It's harmful without protection, and is a powerful repelling force, pushing back any who can't defend themselves against it.  In high enough quantities, sure, it can overwhelm a person's nature and change them - as seen in the epilogue.  But I don't think it can be wielded like others say.  The kid who can use light in the epilogue is never seen actually using it, which leads me to think that he's either able to use Venus' Crystal aspect (ex:  Crystallux) or Jupiter's Celestial aspect (ex: Light Surge), both of which are light themed.

I agree on this one. That's also a good way to compare it.

The strange thing is, while we see light and dark themselves in dark dawn, we only get how they work from the environment.  Nothing is seen using it - not even the so-called dark adepts, who can't seem to cast a spell to save their lives.  No, really.  We hacked them to pieces and the closest they got was Dark Barrier, which cost 0 PP and can easily be explained as them using a piece of their equipment as an item in battle.  In fact, they seemed to be more tech-oriented, so for all we know the actual manipulating of light/dark themselves can only be done through machines - natural beings can't use them.  Further evidence of this is in the ancient peoples, who build colossal alchemy machines all in the name of trying to overcome that.  We saw how well that worked out, didn't we?

So humans aren't strong enough to use Dark?

[Rolina]

There's a couple of things Void can be.  The first is the simple absence of alchemy - a literal void, so to speak.  The other is the hypothetical "Saturn" aspect, where it's a force that actually works counter to the elements.  It's neither growth nor the blocking of growth either way, though.  In the first example, it's literal nothingness.  In the second, is raw destructive energy (as oppose to alchemy's creative energies).



As for the Humans/Dark comment, that's not at all the case.  Different creatures are aligned differently.  Some beings have a strong alignment to light.  These tend to be unchanging, and it's very difficult to get them to grow or evolve.  Perhaps one of the things like this is the Wise One - nobody said the Ancient Jenai didn't succeed - but they very likely could have wished they hadn't.  By infusing TWO with that light essence, it keeps him from changing or eroding with time.  Eons could go by and he'd make Lemurians look like quick-aging schmucks in comparison.

Monsters seem to have a strong Lunar alignment.  This means that with a heavy influence of Luna energy, they'd actually evolve not gradually overtime, but more of a pokemon style evolution where it's right here, right now, OSHI DARK MONSTERS.

Humans and most other beings are in the middle.  We're not affected enough to literally evolve within a few hours like the monsters did, but... well, did you notice something interesting?  There was an XP spike when you fought dark monsters.  Suddenly, you're getting a lot more experience, growing faster and more powerful as you take these things on.  It's an interesting example of the mechanics actually reflecting what's going on in the plot.

[Luna_blade]

There's a couple of things Void can be.  The first is the simple absence of alchemy - a literal void, so to speak.  The other is the hypothetical "Saturn" aspect, where it's a force that actually works counter to the elements.  It's neither growth nor the blocking of growth either way, though.  In the first example, it's literal nothingness.  In the second, is raw destructive energy (as oppose to alchemy's creative energies).

Both good theories. I guess the second one would be more appropiate to GS.

As for the Humans/Dark comment, that's not at all the case.  Different creatures are aligned differently.  Some beings have a strong alignment to light.  These tend to be unchanging, and it's very difficult to get them to grow or evolve.  Perhaps one of the things like this is the Wise One - nobody said the Ancient Jenai didn't succeed - but they very likely could have wished they hadn't.  By infusing TWO with that light essence, it keeps him from changing or eroding with time.  Eons could go by and he'd make Lemurians look like quick-aging schmucks in comparison.

Monsters seem to have a strong Lunar alignment.  This means that with a heavy influence of Luna energy, they'd actually evolve not gradually overtime, but more of a pokemon style evolution where it's right here, right now, OSHI DARK MONSTERS.

Humans and most other beings are in the middle.  We're not affected enough to literally evolve within a few hours like the monsters did, but... well, did you notice something interesting?  There was an XP spike when you fought dark monsters.  Suddenly, you're getting a lot more experience, growing faster and more powerful as you take these things on.  It's an interesting example of the mechanics actually reflecting what's going on in the plot.

So Luna and Sol are a secondary element?

Are spirits more of a ligth based creature then?

Also pokemon evolution? Isn't that a bit to fast? I guess if that was the case, we would have seen it in the games right? Or am I overlooking some DD info?

And it sure is an interesting example of the mechanics. This could actually explain some stuff that happens in the game.

[Rolina]

Also pokemon evolution? Isn't that a bit to fast? I guess if that was the case, we would have seen it in the games right? Or am I overlooking some DD info?

Pokemon evolution is exactly what happened, though.  The second the Grave Eclipse shot up, the evo sequence began.  Nobody bothered to press B, so evolve they did, and now they're sacking the town.  I'd say they evolved overnight, but clearly it didn't take that long.

Also, I think light based creatures would have to be artificial, kind of like The Wise One.  They'd have to be literally infused with light to gain that alignment, because in its natural state light would actually repel monsters and keep them from growing and evolving.  Spirits and Undead are most certainly aligned to Luna, as they tend to be literal instances of lifeless corpses evolving.


Luna and Sol are not elements, not secondary elements, not tertiary elements, they're NOT ELEMENTS, period.  They're called the "Fundaments", and should only ever be referred to as such.  You don't call sound "secondary visuals", do you?

[Thunder-squall]

We don't see anything "evolve" during the Grave Eclipse.  Some things were *spawned* by it, others grew stronger, but we don't see any permanent evolution occur because of the eclipse.

Volechek's various transformations were a result of intentional dark energy use, and not simply the presence of darkness.