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Poll
Question: So, for the people who are in the DC revival project, should we help Joao or continue on our own?
I want to help Joao - 1 (33.3%)
I want the project to be made by us - 1 (33.3%)
Other (leave post) - 1 (33.3%)
Total Voters: 3

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Author Topic: Should we help Joao?  (Read 60823 times)
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Luna_blade
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« on: 26, April, 2014, 07:30:23 PM »

Some info about Joao:
He is the maker of a working beta Golden Sun in RPGmaker.
He speaks another language, but KyleRunner has offered to translate, if necessary.
Here is a link to the video showing some recent progress:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuasdhWJRe0
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« Reply #1 on: 26, April, 2014, 10:23:37 PM »

Well... Maybe João will provide with all he knows.
Then maybe we can go on our own.
But I hope we can merge our works. After all, having the original games along with our fan game would be very good.
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« Reply #2 on: 27, April, 2014, 10:59:39 AM »

Well he made a lot of stuff but I have question to him.
Are you making gs in rpg or making new story?
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« Reply #3 on: 27, April, 2014, 10:46:03 PM »

I think you guys are doing the same things...

It's like playing a video game, and sharing information. The more your friends make progress, they more they can help you out, but they can't play the game on your behalf.  And in the end I know each of you are going to want to do their own things, even if you share code and resources.
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« Reply #4 on: 27, April, 2014, 10:49:40 PM »

A mutual effort with an end goal is probably best for everyone involved.  By helping him finish the GS remake in RPG maker, it gives us not only experience working on it, but a very valuable tool to work with.  Taking that and evolving it or molding it as we need would be a great idea.  I must say, though - we'll want to hide as much of the RPG Maker elements as we can.  As versatile as RPG maker can be, there's many people (myself included) that are immediately turned off by RPG maker games, mostly due to the limitations of the vanilla software.  Obviously it's evolved, but one look at the title screen, as well as the very zoomed out nature of the demo he showcased can give many people the wrong impression.

Still, it's an amazing start, and I'd love to help him figure out how to continue it.
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« Reply #5 on: 27, April, 2014, 11:02:26 PM »

So I guess it's joao's decision.  Does he want help?  Is he willing to share his work, and to teach it?

I'm not sure I see the point of the poll.
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« Reply #6 on: 27, April, 2014, 11:05:40 PM »

Hello,
I had some ideas for the history, but nothing concrete.
For a while I'm just trying to approximate the engine, this I want to keep as close as possible.
As you saw, a lot of things need to be improved, polished.
All the help is welcomed. Here is my skype: jjppof
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« Reply #7 on: 27, April, 2014, 11:33:48 PM »

Hello,
I had some ideas for the history, but nothing concrete.
For a while I'm just trying to approximate the engine, this I want to keep as close as possible.
As you saw, a lot of things need to be improved, polished.
All the help is welcomed. Here is my skype: jjppof

That's great!  While I know all of you probably want to tell different stories, you all want to approximate the Golden Sun engine.  Accomplishing that will be a great help to the community.

Do you have ideas on how you can share snippets of code?  Drop Box and Git Hub might be too complicated, but the great thing about these forums are that you can upload small files as part of posts.
« Last Edit: 27, April, 2014, 11:35:26 PM by Thunder-squall » Logged
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« Reply #8 on: 27, April, 2014, 11:56:10 PM »

I think this is great - after talking on skype, it seems he's going for a 1:1 remake.  I say we tackle this together - once this is done, that gives us a HUGE tool to work with.  Want to work on rebalancing the game?  Add stat supports?  Change damage formulas?  If we get this done, we'll have a tool far more capable than the editor could have been.  I say we give him our full support.
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« Reply #9 on: 28, April, 2014, 12:10:42 AM »


I say we tackle this together
...
I say we give him our full support.


Can we clarify what the terms in bolded mean, in this context?  What are the actual actions that people are proposing?

Me?  I likely won't be involve in any way, shape, or form -- I'm working on different stuff.

The only reason I'm speaking up here is because I have concerns on a sociological level, and based off of previous experience.

Is this going to be a repeat of the Atrius Editor, where you all want to use it, but none of you want to work on it?
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Rolina
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« Reply #10 on: 28, April, 2014, 12:27:51 AM »

We don't work with the editor because it's unfinished and unwieldy.  Make a full class line, and time yourself.  Takes a full hour on average.  Little keyboard support and it's inability to do what we really need it to do is what holds back our projects.

I want to have new characters in the game - to replace the old ones with a brand new story.  I don't use the editor because the editor just plain can't do that.  If we help him get this done, we'll suddenly have a program that does what the editor was supposed to be.  And THAT is why I say we should help him.  Because we can get what we needed the editor to be in the end.  The editor will never be done - atrius bailed on it to focus on other projects he wanted to do, and the java version is very slow in the making.

Plus, many of us want to change the damage formulas - and that cannot ever, in any fashion, be done reliably in the editor.

So what do I mean by together?  I mean that we lend our support to his efforts.  I say our full support because if this project gets pulled off exactly as he's wanting it, as a 1:1 remake, then it will give us the tools we need to do the stuff we want.  It'll be what Atrius' editor promised to be before it died.
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« Reply #11 on: 28, April, 2014, 12:36:24 AM »


So what do I mean by together?  I mean that we lend our support to his efforts.  I say our full support because ...


Yes, but what is "support?"  To me, it seems like in order to help him, you're going to be able to do what he's already done.  And so far he's done it alone.

I take a strong issue with the poll question, of whether "should we help Joao or continue on our own?"  If we cannot continue on your own, then we won't be able to help joao. To me it's really that simple.
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« Reply #12 on: 28, April, 2014, 02:15:14 AM »

Hello,
I had some ideas for the history, but nothing concrete.
For a while I'm just trying to approximate the engine, this I want to keep as close as possible.
As you saw, a lot of things need to be improved, polished.
All the help is welcomed. Here is my skype: jjppof

@Ideas for history:
Sounds like new content (story elements) will be in this game? (And not a pure copy of Golden Sun?)

@approximate the engine:
Sounds we're going to have all the same mechanics...

@need for polish & All the help is welcomed:
Is anyone else working on the project? Is the source closed, private, or public? If it's closed or private, are you waiting to finish the project before opening it up some more?

closed = Source only available to owner.
private = Source available to a limited audience.
public = Source available to everyone.



I agree that the RPG Maker thing could easily do more than the Editor ever could. (Edit: And looking at programs like RPG Maker makes me think it would be more useful for me to document the games rather than doing the editor, anyway.)

Quote
Plus, many of us want to change the damage formulas - and that cannot ever, in any fashion, be done reliably in the editor.
At least not without an assembly editor that no one feels like working on.
« Last Edit: 28, April, 2014, 03:11:20 AM by Teawater » Logged

Golden Sun Docs: Broken Seal - The Lost Age - Dark Dawn | Mario Sports Docs: Mario Golf & Mario Tennis | Misc. Docs
Refer to Yoshi's Lighthouse for any M&L hacking needs...

Sometimes I like to compare apples to oranges. (Figuratively) ... They are both fruits, but which one would you eat more? (If taken literally, I'd probably choose apples.)
Maybe it is over-analyzing, but it doesn't mean the information is useless.


The only GS Discord servers with significance are:
Golden Sun Hacking Community
GS Speedrunning
/r/Golden Sun
GS United Nations
Temple of Kraden

Can you believe how small the Golden Sun Community is?

2+2=5 Don't believe me? Those are rounded decimal numbers. Take that, flat earth theorists! :)
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« Reply #13 on: 28, April, 2014, 02:38:07 AM »

The idea is, once the base is done, work with the engine will be easy like use rpg maker.
Before I drop the source, I want to be sure that this source works, I dont want something incomplete circulating.
I liked the help I got today from Rolina about the element engine. For a while this kind of help I want. Till now I didn't have implementation problems.
But dont worry  Happy, theres a long way till the end and a lot of hard work to be done yet. Ill keep contact and posting progress.
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« Reply #14 on: 28, April, 2014, 03:00:38 AM »

That makes it sound like you are in the Alpha stages.
Okay. So plans are to make it Public soon?
What exactly is necessary for your source to 'work' in order to get the first version released? (Before I start assuming it has to be a completed game.)
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Golden Sun Docs: Broken Seal - The Lost Age - Dark Dawn | Mario Sports Docs: Mario Golf & Mario Tennis | Misc. Docs
Refer to Yoshi's Lighthouse for any M&L hacking needs...

Sometimes I like to compare apples to oranges. (Figuratively) ... They are both fruits, but which one would you eat more? (If taken literally, I'd probably choose apples.)
Maybe it is over-analyzing, but it doesn't mean the information is useless.


The only GS Discord servers with significance are:
Golden Sun Hacking Community
GS Speedrunning
/r/Golden Sun
GS United Nations
Temple of Kraden

Can you believe how small the Golden Sun Community is?

2+2=5 Don't believe me? Those are rounded decimal numbers. Take that, flat earth theorists! :)
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Luna_blade
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« Reply #15 on: 28, April, 2014, 07:14:54 AM »


I take a strong issue with the poll question, of whether "should we help Joao or continue on our own?"  If we cannot continue on your own, then we won't be able to help joao. To me it's really that simple.

You are right. But do you think we are unable to handle the project on our own?
We can continue on our own but that requires us to probably basically recreate what Joao has already done.
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« Reply #16 on: 28, April, 2014, 11:57:10 AM »

That makes it sound like you are in the Alpha stages.
Okay. So plans are to make it Public soon?
What exactly is necessary for your source to 'work' in order to get the first version released? (Before I start assuming it has to be a completed game.)


Yeah, I intend to make it public.
Neither I know what exactly needs to make it done hahahahaha
But I can make a list soon.
Anyway, the next the step is implement the element engine and the damage calculation.
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Thunder-squall
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« Reply #17 on: 28, April, 2014, 07:15:28 PM »


We can continue on our own but that requires us to probably basically recreate what Joao has already done.


In practice, you have two options.

1. Identify what J hasn't done but needs to do, and then work on that.
2. Do whatever you want to do in order to make a GS game in RPG Maker.

The first is a perfectly good option.  
If you do the second (with no mind to the first), then there are two possible outcomes for option 2.

1. You'll end up working on something J hasn't worked on yet, but would have needed to do eventually.
2. You'll work on the same thing J's working on, and be able to geek out with him about how he's done stuff, and help him do it.

Those outcomes are just as good as the outcomes of the first option, with the added advantage that you'll also pursue the task with greater agency and gusto, since whatever you're working on, it'd be your first choice, rather than some compromise.

I should also point out that J's path is a lonely one -- Otherwise more people would have actually done what he did, rather than just talk about it.  If people specifically choose something to do that's not what J's doing, then we actively reduce the chance of more people like J coming about. And that makes J's path even lonelier.  This is another reason why I support option 2 rather than option 1.


Anyway, the next the step is implement the element engine and the damage calculation.
 

Why isn't Rolina doing this?
« Last Edit: 28, April, 2014, 07:20:17 PM by Thunder-squall » Logged
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Rolina
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« Reply #18 on: 29, April, 2014, 12:18:22 AM »

Who do you think is helping him?  ;)

We've been talking about this over skype.  The only things that escape me are the formulas for effect infliction and those class-based resistances.  Once we figure out how those work, we can implement a true 1:1 remake, rather than a wild-guessed approximation I'd have to make.

Don't expect any custom formulas out of this, though - the goal is a strict "exactly how GS does it", so any balancing that could be done shouldn't be done.  Leave that for community edits of the game, should we be given the green light to do them.
« Last Edit: 29, April, 2014, 12:21:49 AM by Rolina » Logged

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« Reply #19 on: 29, April, 2014, 12:48:55 AM »

Speaking of calculations, here's one for a random chance of recovering from an ailment/debuff: (As I found long ago.)
(((Luck * 3) - (Turns * 5) + base_chance) * 655) >= 16BIT[rand()]

base_chance depends on effect:
Attack = 30%
Defense = 20%
Resistance = 20%
Delusion = 30%
Confuse = 60%
Charm = 70%
Stun = 20%
Sleep = 50%
Psy-seal = 30%


http://forum.goldensunhacking.net/index.php?topic=2067.msg37426#msg37426 = This post is the success chance when an effect is used.

http://forum.goldensunhacking.net/index.php?topic=2215.0 = Summons was also researched... But I didn't list any formulas/summon values...


I can't recall posting any other calculations?
« Last Edit: 29, April, 2014, 12:53:28 AM by Teawater » Logged

Golden Sun Docs: Broken Seal - The Lost Age - Dark Dawn | Mario Sports Docs: Mario Golf & Mario Tennis | Misc. Docs
Refer to Yoshi's Lighthouse for any M&L hacking needs...

Sometimes I like to compare apples to oranges. (Figuratively) ... They are both fruits, but which one would you eat more? (If taken literally, I'd probably choose apples.)
Maybe it is over-analyzing, but it doesn't mean the information is useless.


The only GS Discord servers with significance are:
Golden Sun Hacking Community
GS Speedrunning
/r/Golden Sun
GS United Nations
Temple of Kraden

Can you believe how small the Golden Sun Community is?

2+2=5 Don't believe me? Those are rounded decimal numbers. Take that, flat earth theorists! :)
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