Monsters and Darkness

[Thunder-squall]

From the dialogue in the image attached, there seem to be a few different classes of monsters which players fight:

> Creatures which are spawned by the darkness.
> Creatures which are mutated (and made stronger) by darkness.
> Creatures that have no relation to darkness.

The word "fell" came up, which in context meant "likely to cause or capable of causing death," but the description of how light might affect these creatures makes it obvious that from their perspective, light is "fell energy."

Volecheck (Sveta's brother) is an interesting case, if you consider when, why, and how he was turned into his monstrous form.  He was turned into a creature of darkness that could only exist due to the "evil energy" of the Grave Eclipse, but I can't remember if this was done before he died, after he died, of when he was on the cusp of death.  Either way, he's one example of someone transitioning between being a creature 'of light' and a creature 'of dark.'

[Rolina]

Can we use IMG tags, please?  I don't want to have to download pictures to my computer just to understand the post.

Also, they did not say Light is Fell Energy - they said that light dispels fell energies.

[Thunder-squall]

 - If you click on the image and not the link, it will expand rather than download.
- Kraden describes darkness as "fell" energy.
- I was making the point that "fell" is literally relative.  What weakens people strengthens dark creatures, but what weakens dark creatures strengthens people.

[Rolina]

The image doesn't always show up, and I was pointing out a typo, not disagreeing with you.

[Thunder-squall]

Also, they did not say Light is Fell Energy -

No one said they did.

[Rolina]

From the dialogue in the image attached, there seem to be a few different classes of monsters which players fight:

> Creatures which are spawned by the darkness.
> Creatures which are mutated (and made stronger) by darkness.
> Creatures that have no relation to darkness.

The word "fell" came up, which in context meant "likely to cause or capable of causing death," but the description of how light might affect these creatures makes it obvious that from their perspective, light is "fell energy."

Volecheck (Sveta's brother) is an interesting case, if you consider when, why, and how he was turned into his monstrous form.  He was turned into a creature of darkness that could only exist due to the "evil energy" of the Grave Eclipse, but I can't remember if this was done before he died, after he died, of when he was on the cusp of death.  Either way, he's one example of someone transitioning between being a creature 'of light' and a creature 'of dark.'

Pretty sure you typoed that.

[Thunder-squall]

The word "fell" came up [when Kraden described Dark Energy], which in context meant "likely to cause or capable of causing death," -- but the description of how light might affect [Dark] creatures makes it obvious that from [the perspective of dark creatures], light is "fell energy."

This should help.

Do we have evidence [that the monsters that were empowered by the Grave Eclipse reverted back to their original form]?  Or were they just killed off, since they can't be replenished in the same way?

I do agree that it's a temporary thing, but I don't think it'd be immediate.  There'd be a few stragglers afterwards.

If the creatures could exist before the Grave Eclipse, I do not see why they would not be able to exist after the Eclipse ended.  Volechek was an unusual case that was artificially created, presumably with the use of Dark Psyenergy.

But this has caused me to rethink the idea that creatures were "spawned" out of nothingness.  Perhaps those creatures (the more abstract monsters of darkness) were always around.  And perhaps if certain types of monsters couldn't reach for the caves and shadows, they would be wiped out.  Maybe the only reason they survived is because they avoided the light, and fed off of creatures of the light for sustenance (light consumes dark, as dark consumes light).

To say it more clearly: Maybe many of the monsters we do see are the "few stragglers" left behind from a previous eclipsed era, where the light/dark situation was reversed.

[Rolina]

...Wow, that is an incredibly confusing way of explaining something.  You might wanna use more direct terms, because how I read it was that you were talking about how Kraden and the DD Party perceived it.  Now that you've cleared it up, though, yeah, I can see that.  I imagine that just as how Kraden sees Darkness as a malevolent force, so to do the monsters see light as such a thing.


Also, no.  We actually know how monsters exist, and it's nothing to do with Light/Dark - this was explained in GS1.  They're not stragglers, but animals mutated by psynergetic energies.  They weren't overly common in certain areas until the Sol Sanctum erupted at the beginning of GS1's prologue.

[Thunder-squall]

Also, no.  We actually know how monsters exist, and it's nothing to do with Light/Dark - this was explained in GS1.  They're not stragglers, but animals mutated by psynergetic energies.  They weren't overly common in certain areas until the Sol Sanctum erupted at the beginning of GS1's prologue.

Are these the same animals that are stronger at night?

To say it more clearly: Maybe many of the monsters we do see are the "few stragglers" left behind from a previous eclipsed era, where the light/dark situation was reversed.

Let's make this a reference to stuff like skeleton soldiers.

[Rolina]

If the same monsters were out at night, they'd likely be sleep deprived, and thus actually weaker.  Even monsters need food and rest, y'know?  Likely what was implied was that stronger monsters come out at night - much like how some of the more dangerous animals in the real world are nocturnal. 

I'm also going to point out that the previous games do exist, and explained what monsters were and how they came to be.  Your clarification thus still falls under "GS1 explained this already".

[Knight of Purgatory]

hmmm. Just a guess here, but the psyenergy power reanimated the skeletons/corpses? Or maybe monsters exist due to multiple causes and not just one, which might explain the large variety of them

[Luna_blade]

Two knights and a blade? This topic is getting shred to pieces! (no offense just joking)

Anyway, do we even know for sure if the skeletons are reanimated or even aware (I guess aware meant sentient?)?

My guess is that the skeletons are more a sort of mindless zombies.

[Knight of Purgatory]

Ah, but its 2 knights, 2 helmets and 3 blades. Im guessing Garet gets the third blade.

Its a possibility, but its unconfirmable unless Canon gives a non conflicting statement

[Luna_blade]

Im guessing Garet gets the third blade.

Garet was more of an axe user? Also which Garet?

[Rolina]

And none of these are Darkness-specific.  It's not darkness in and of itself that turns something into a monster.  Rather, it seems instead to have an empowering effect akin to something like evolution.

There's a reason my go-to answer for anyone debating GS who's only played DD is "Go play the originals".  A lot of these things are already explained and showcased.  I'm not just dismissing theories and ripping someone apart.  You really need to have played all three games to understand a lot of these things.

[Luna_blade]

If they have the ability to flee and use techniques (which they do, IIRC) that would mean they're aware. They don't attack mindlessly.

Yeah, that's right.

Psynergy can also mutate humans just as it does to lesser creatures (monkeys, rats, bears), the Final Boss of GS1, and what the Wise One did to Isaac's parents are proof of this. So the skeletons are either aware undead or the living turned into animated (and still aware)corpses.

I agree on that Psynergy can mutate creatures, even humans.

It's not darkness in and of itself that turns something into a monster.  Rather, it seems instead to have an empowering effect akin to something like evolution.

Agreed.

What's even stranger is the fact that monsters never attack each other, one could explain that away via "video game logic", but it could be that monsters usually have a human-centric diet. Or maybe the psynergy of their surroundings grants them sustenance, along with evolving them, so they could just be very territorial. That would explain why gnomes and bears coexist in the cold that surrounds Imil, as opposed to attacking each other; they recognize one another as being non-threats. The same way crabs and lobsters generally do.
Granted, the bears are mostly just normal bears, but you get the idea.

Also true I guess.

[Rolina]

Well, it should be assumed that they do attack one another - they just see humans as a greater threat.  Which makes sense.

I mean, sure, you could just wrap it together with summons destroying the world for 250 damage as "typical jrpg bullshit", but at least with monsters we can spin it.  Summons... well, I've always hated how JRPGs do them.  I think FFX and FFXII got it right with them being actual legit summons.

[Luna_blade]

Really? I thought FFIV and VI did it best, they were actual gods from another realm you were summoning into your realm. Golden Sun's summons are definitely the worst of any JRPG in terms of in-universe explanation and lore. As in there is none. >.>

Oh. I thought the way GS did it was pretty normal... Gives us a lot of lore to make for the fangame!

[Rolina]

In FFX and XII, summons didn't just show up and act like any other spell - they actually fought as allied units.  That's the kind of summon I'd love to see.  Imagine if when you summoned a being in GS, it occupied a "back row" slot behind the summoner and fought as a guest, the way Isaac and Garet did in DD.  That's the kind of summon I want to see.

[Aile~♥]

What's the constellation that Meteor was fired from in Dark Dawn, though? Mr. big man himself from that constellation could come down and fight, and his regular attack could be that he throws a meteorite at the target. You'd have to change the name of the summon too, of course, but it would still be similar enough.

Catastrophe would basically be Judgment with the option to Mega Evolve, though...

Also freakin' Iris though. Tractor Beam! Tractor Beam! Tractor Beam! MEGIDDO! Tractor Beam! Aurora Field!

[Rolina]

I just figure to outright replace meteor with something else.  I've always been in favor of that.  I've tended towards Vulcan, personally.

[Wolf]

The monsters in the areas affected by the Grave Eclipse are imbalanced versions of the monsters that already exist.  (Think of a yin yang with light and dark being represented.)  The monsters in the eclipse are consumed by darkness giving them enhanced power, but making them extremely susceptible to light and making them more aggressive or restless than usual.

Note: Using monster line logic, the eclipse monsters are given different names.  This could mean that they are recognized as new monsters despite being upgraded versions of existing monsters.

[Rolina]

@Wolf:  Yeah, that's pretty much where my evolution angle comes from.