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[RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age

Started by Caledor, 24, January, 2015, 12:29:46 PM

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VardenSalad

Ok, the top of the download page says 1.22a, but the .ips file just says v1.22.ips. Is this correct?
Never forget why you started playing.

Caledor

Quote from: VardenSalad on 22, April, 2015, 08:37:27 PM
Ok, the top of the download page says 1.22a, but the .ips file just says v1.22.ips. Is this correct?
Yes, sorry i forgot to rename the file. I'll upload the same file again with the correct name.

Rolina

#162
Quote from: JamietheFlameUser on 21, April, 2015, 10:32:44 PM
Logically the base classes should also be the best at mono-element Psynergy spam as they get the highest Elemental Power in their element. So keeping Sheba in her base class, for example, should be to the player's benefit to a certain extent.

As for the issue of a "massive 20 level gap with no new offensive spells", that's why Rolina assigns damaging Psynergy series the way she does when making classes. It's to ensure that you always have a "current" spell on hand. Also, it's perfectly okay for different classes to be better at different things in regards to status spells etc, so if your spells aren't fitting in where they should and you end up with a massive gap in learn levels you can in fact shuffle things around a bit.
Yup.  Classes in my system require one Basic, one Advanced, and one Expert level skill line.  You can substitute the advanced or expert lines for support or healing if you want, but you can't double up.  Essentially, every time in GS where you'd have both Prism and Plasma, or both Pyroclasm and Plasma, I'd substitute one of the spell lines for a spell line one categorical tier lower (ex:  Substitute Prism for Ice, or Pyroclasm for Fire).  That way, you have some mid-game offense for your offensive classes.  Supporters and Controllers wanted those healing and ailment spells instead anyway.

@Spell analysis/Scourge:  ...I don't think base classes should be considered "bad".  Rather, each and every class should be made as viable as it can.  The reason that dual- and tri- element classes have higher stats is to balance their lack of elemental power and specialization.  It shouldn't be the way GS has it, though - in vanilla, stats mean everything because attack and defense are all that matter.  The goal for balancing classes in a modifed GS is to find that sweet-spot between specialization, versatility, and statistical strength.

In addition, consider what each class' role in combat is.  Is this a damage dealer?  A tank?  A battlefield control class?  A healer?  A jack of all trades?  How does it compare and differentiate itself from others of its kind?  Isaac's version of an Attacker should look different than Felix's version.  Personally, my take is that Isaac is the Paladin-type, having healing and support as backup, while Felix is the dark knight type, having battlefield control such as the haunt/curse/condemn combo instead.  How you choose to balance it is up to you, but no class should ever be consider just plain "better" than any other, unless you're talking about in specific situations.  If one class is just better, then some tweaking needs to happen to make both options viable.


Also, considering base classes as "Summon classes" doesn't work - there exists people like me who Megaera spam at battle start to get a quick boost in power.  Multi-element summons are best used by alt-class teams, so it benefits me to use dual-element classes, and even more to use tri-element classes.

Aile~♥

Quote from: Caledor on 22, April, 2015, 02:24:05 AM
Quote from: VardenSalad on 21, April, 2015, 08:28:11 PM
V1.22 has tweaks on some of the superbosses, but doesn't go into details. Are you just being cagey, or is more info forthcoming?
I don't want to ruin the surprise for those who like it, and if someone actually wanted to know, all he/she has to do is to open the ROM with the editor. I usually go into details only when it would be hard to see the difference within the editor.

QuoteActually, there's a question I really, really wanted to ask. You're using some of Erik's work for this patch, yes? Did you happen to keep Dullahan's drop item?
Yes, the Mind Ribbon is there.

Quote from: JamietheFlameUser on 21, April, 2015, 10:32:44 PM
Logically the base classes should also be the best at mono-element Psynergy spam as they get the highest Elemental Power in their element. So keeping Sheba in her base class, for example, should be to the player's benefit to a certain extent.
You know, this is something I feared as well when i raised the elemental caps to 255 but the PP multiplier patch seems to perform better than i expected in compensating.

Just tested against a Talon Runner (25 JRes) with Sheba at L55: Fateweaver Sheba deals around 659 damage with Scourge (184 JPower, 819 HP, 546 PP, 330 Def, 21 Luck), while Prophet Sheba deals 713 with it (229 JPower, 694 HP, 498 PP, 300 Def, 27 Luck). Mind that 25 Res is the absolute lowest in the whole game and Scourge is the second strongest spell with a base power of 240 (among all elements. Strongest is Call Dullahan, BP 250), so these extra 54 damage are the maximum you can hope to achieve among any spell and against any enemy. Factor in the enormous HP loss, and all the versatility other classes offer (in the case above you trade Dull and Tempest for Ply, Impact, Guard, Break and Prism) and you'll see it's just not worth it.


As a side note i uploaded v1.22a.

Agreeing with Rolina that base classes should not be inherently "bad". After all, the base class represents the fighting style of the character with no outside influence and as such, they should be a viable option.
[sprite=16, 6, 0]:P[/sprite]

Lloyd: Easy as pie.
Genis: Sweet!
Presea: ...Sweetie pie...
Zelos: Let's not start on this again...

[spoiler=epic mindscrew][/spoiler]

Rolina

In the originals, they weren't really bad at all - just often overshadowed.  Hell, Angel and Squire lines are considered among the best, not quite Wizard and Ninja good, but up there.  In fact, when you start getting close to the Attack Cap, it's actually recommended Felix/Isaac switch back to the Squire line specifically so that they can start taking advantage of the higher venus power for the Sol Blade.  It allows the class to outdamage the ninja at top tier play.

leaf

#165
Okay, just got done testing summon rush strats against dully. First off, it isn't easy. Second off, with the proper strategy, it's pretty damn easy. Just... I wouldn't expect someone who's blindly summon rushing to succeed. Dully simply does too much damage to approach without an actual strategy. It took me a few iterations to get something that works consistently here, and even then there's still a point of failure if dully decides to lead with djinn storm.

[spoiler=Here's the best strat I found]
Core party is isaac, sheba, ivan. Fourth is jenna. Fifth is anyone (I use piers here). Sixth is mia.
Place djinn in standby in the order of jenna -> core -> others. Only vine/mud, ground, petra, flash, kite, lull, and flash remain set. Easiest way is to have jenna as party lead and use the standby all command.

Jenna@mud, 4 mars, 4 jupiter
Isaac@ground, 8 mars
Sheba@kite, 1 venus, 1 mars, 6 jupiter
Ivan@petra, flash, lull, 5 jupiter, 1 mercury
Piers@7 venus, 1 mars, 1 mercury
Mia@6 mercury, 3 venus

The mercury djinn on ivan and piers are both completely optional, as are two of the six on mia. Everyone's items are optimized for epow of the elements they'll be using. Isaac gets +venus, sheba and ivan get +jupiter, jenna +mars, and mia +mercury. This strategy would still work even without epow boosting equipment, but might take an extra turn (and the boreas summon would no longer be optional).

T1: Vine/Mud (Jenna), Ground (Isaac), Kite with target Ivan (Sheba), Flash (Ivan)
T2: Meteor (Jenna), Haures (Isaac), Catastrophe 1 (Sheba), Petra+Lull (Ivan) - 15 djinn, Jenna's djinn fully used.
T3: Change Jenna for Piers. X (Piers), Charon (Isaac), Catastrophe 2 (Sheba), Catastrophe 3 (Ivan) - 26 djinn, 41 total.
T4: Change someone for Mia. Azul (Mia), X, X, X - 7 djinn, 48 total (optionally 52 if you summon boreas with one of the X's)

52 djinn = 104% hp = dead dully. The base damages of the summons and epow of the chars is enough that azul finishes without the help of boreas, though. It doesn't matter what X is, as long as it doesn't interfere with any of the other summons.

Has only one point of failure, on T1: If dully does impact -> djinn storm, you have to reset. Otherwise, it's flawless. His enfeeble -> dark collide opener is pretty much irrelevant when you have flash up. After that, dully doesn't get to attack until T3, by which point you've already unloaded your everything on him. No matter what he does at this point, you can bring in mia on T4 to finish him with azul.

If, in theory, dully were still fast enough to outspeed your party after using mud/vine, ground could be replaced by zephyr/coal on T1, ensuring the T2/T3 summons are successful in exchange for a small T1 consistency drop. In this case, you would set shade on someone in the second party (either mia, felix, or garet), since you need to make sure you're able to get off the last killing summon before dully kills everyone.[/spoiler]

Feel free to test the strat yourself using the included save. It's the second file.
[spoiler=quotes]
[9:00:50 PM] Randel Peltier: Ok...what did I do last night?
[9:01:19 PM] Kain: Something boring, repetitive, and lasted for about sixty seconds.
---
[10:45:08 AM] Salanewt: But yeah, the elemental phalluses are being... Stroked up by Saturos and co., and the energy will go towards... Mt. Muffin, where the Golden Climax will arise.
[7:28:42 PM] Salanewt: An added bonus is that Isaac and co. were trying to stop Saturos and co. because their beliefs state that Mt. Muffin should remain a virgin.
---
[9:54:21 PM] Randel Peltier: Guess the number in my head an you get to pick what I say. Number between 1-10
[9:54:28 PM] leaf: 11
[9:54:36 PM] Randel Peltier: @#$%!
---
[8:38:13 PM] Randel Peltier: Shes like this queen up on a pedastal that I have yet to court.
[8:38:29 PM] Kain: You've tried courting her.
[8:38:43 PM] leaf: and failed spectacularly
[8:38:44 PM] Randel Peltier: Ive tried...shes the best dating game ever.
---
[12:24:35 AM] Salanewt: I need to find a picture of a naked person to put on the Christmas tree next year.
---
[2:19:06 PM] Zeadra: wait... Rief's a guy???
---
[1:09:57 PM] Zeadra: well if you want to know if its a new effect or something weird, just check GS1, if side step is there maby it is the nimble dodge thing
[1:10:35 PM] Kioll: For once, you've contributed something useful.  o.O[/spoiler]

Caledor

Don't get me wrong it's not like i completely despise them, but the way they are now they are extremely underwhelming late-game, because there are better options. With the casting advantage practically gone due to the patch, the selling points of mono elemental classes are: better at unleashing djinn, stronger summoning (cause summon rushing is not everything, and i'm going to outright remove that possibility against the 4 superbosses), and resilience to set/recovery djinn (not so much when compared to dual element classes but tri-elemental classes are much harder to manage when facing djinn blast/storm/stun).

As they are now i see them as beginner classes. Extremely good early game but they start losing their appeal once you get around 4-5 djinn per pg, to become almost useless when everyone has 9 djinn.

So here's my suggestion: give mono elemental classes their much needed 6th tier at 9 djinn: this will give them better stats (avg on my class chart would be around 138/139, right below item classes), and they'll regain their casting advantage thanks to the higher PP. What do you think?

@Leaf: thanks for testing. My solution to remove summon rushing against those 4 is to lower the cap of HP% damage to something like 10000. This alone should make summon rushing Dullahan and Sentinel outright impossible and a one-way ticket to hell against Valukar/Balrog. The only doubt is star magician, who has lower HP than the other 3.

leaf

#167
Star magician is harder to summon rush to begin with because you have to eliminate the guardian balls. Outside of petra, there aren't any good options for making sure it doesn't guard aura, so if SM summons any more guardian balls after the first, you have to stop your rush to take them out.

Limiting the hp% cap is an interesting idea. I would have just nerfed the hp% of multielemental summons, personally. Keep all sub-5 djinn multielemental summons the same, bring eclipse/haures down to 9% (from 10%), and anything higher than eclipse/haures down to 1.5% per djinni. That way catastrophe is only 12% instead of 16%, charon is 15% instead of 20%, and azul is 10.5% instead of 14%. With those nerfs, the strat I used would lose 19.5% max hp damage, introducing multiple new points of failure at the end. This is one of those times when formulas are great and useful, but you have to be willing to break them sometimes for the sake of better design.

If you hard cap the hp% bonus, you could end up with weird situations where a basic lv3 summon does about the same damage as any higher level summon, when multielemental summons are the main culprit behind easy summon rushes. This feels bad for the player, and is probably best off avoided.
[spoiler=quotes]
[9:00:50 PM] Randel Peltier: Ok...what did I do last night?
[9:01:19 PM] Kain: Something boring, repetitive, and lasted for about sixty seconds.
---
[10:45:08 AM] Salanewt: But yeah, the elemental phalluses are being... Stroked up by Saturos and co., and the energy will go towards... Mt. Muffin, where the Golden Climax will arise.
[7:28:42 PM] Salanewt: An added bonus is that Isaac and co. were trying to stop Saturos and co. because their beliefs state that Mt. Muffin should remain a virgin.
---
[9:54:21 PM] Randel Peltier: Guess the number in my head an you get to pick what I say. Number between 1-10
[9:54:28 PM] leaf: 11
[9:54:36 PM] Randel Peltier: @#$%!
---
[8:38:13 PM] Randel Peltier: Shes like this queen up on a pedastal that I have yet to court.
[8:38:29 PM] Kain: You've tried courting her.
[8:38:43 PM] leaf: and failed spectacularly
[8:38:44 PM] Randel Peltier: Ive tried...shes the best dating game ever.
---
[12:24:35 AM] Salanewt: I need to find a picture of a naked person to put on the Christmas tree next year.
---
[2:19:06 PM] Zeadra: wait... Rief's a guy???
---
[1:09:57 PM] Zeadra: well if you want to know if its a new effect or something weird, just check GS1, if side step is there maby it is the nimble dodge thing
[1:10:35 PM] Kioll: For once, you've contributed something useful.  o.O[/spoiler]

Caledor

QuoteStar magician is harder to summon rush to begin with because you have to eliminate the guardian balls. Outside of petra, there aren't any good options for making sure it doesn't guard aura, so if SM summons any more guardian balls after the first, you have to stop your rush to take them out.
Exactly what i thought. Thanks.

QuoteIf you hard cap the hp% bonus, you could end up with weird situations where a basic lv3 summon does about the same damage as any higher level summon, when multielemental summons are the main culprit behind easy summon rushes. This feels bad for the player, and is probably best off avoided.
While your approach is interesting as well, I think you misunderstood me. What i wanted to cap is the HP from which HP% damage is calculated to something like 10000. This way every enemy that has more HP than the cap (superbosses) is treated as having a lower number of HP for the sake of calculating HP% damage.

leaf

Oh, I see what you mean. I misread. So instead of 16k as dully's hp, it would use 10k, and any others bosses with more than 10k health would also be treated as having 10k for the purposes of summoning. Hm, that could work. That might even be enough to completely neuter summon rushing against dully. You would have to make extremely optimal use of all your djinn, and even then, the damage might not be quite enough. It would be sad to see it completely quashed, because while it may be an overbearing strategy, it is *still* a strategy, and one that takes planning to make work. I think the lowest you could set it and still have summon rushing be viable against dully *at all* is 12k.

Oh yeah, and I was wondering, what hp% did you set daedalus and missile to? You can't view hp% damage in the editor afaik.
[spoiler=quotes]
[9:00:50 PM] Randel Peltier: Ok...what did I do last night?
[9:01:19 PM] Kain: Something boring, repetitive, and lasted for about sixty seconds.
---
[10:45:08 AM] Salanewt: But yeah, the elemental phalluses are being... Stroked up by Saturos and co., and the energy will go towards... Mt. Muffin, where the Golden Climax will arise.
[7:28:42 PM] Salanewt: An added bonus is that Isaac and co. were trying to stop Saturos and co. because their beliefs state that Mt. Muffin should remain a virgin.
---
[9:54:21 PM] Randel Peltier: Guess the number in my head an you get to pick what I say. Number between 1-10
[9:54:28 PM] leaf: 11
[9:54:36 PM] Randel Peltier: @#$%!
---
[8:38:13 PM] Randel Peltier: Shes like this queen up on a pedastal that I have yet to court.
[8:38:29 PM] Kain: You've tried courting her.
[8:38:43 PM] leaf: and failed spectacularly
[8:38:44 PM] Randel Peltier: Ive tried...shes the best dating game ever.
---
[12:24:35 AM] Salanewt: I need to find a picture of a naked person to put on the Christmas tree next year.
---
[2:19:06 PM] Zeadra: wait... Rief's a guy???
---
[1:09:57 PM] Zeadra: well if you want to know if its a new effect or something weird, just check GS1, if side step is there maby it is the nimble dodge thing
[1:10:35 PM] Kioll: For once, you've contributed something useful.  o.O[/spoiler]

Caledor

Quote from: leaf on 23, April, 2015, 03:56:25 PM
Oh, I see what you mean. I misread. So instead of 16k as dully's hp, it would use 10k, and any others bosses with more than 10k health would also be treated as having 10k for the purposes of summoning. Hm, that could work. That might even be enough to completely neuter summon rushing against dully. You would have to make extremely optimal use of all your djinn, and even then, the damage might not be quite enough. It would be sad to see it completely quashed, because while it may be an overbearing strategy, it is *still* a strategy, and one that takes planning to make work. I think the lowest you could set it and still have summon rushing be viable against dully *at all* is 12k.

Oh yeah, and I was wondering, what hp% did you set daedalus and missile to? You can't view hp% damage in the editor afaik.
Thanks I'll ponder. Daedalus is 5% the first attack and 10% the missile.

MaxiPower

Is this the hack with changes to dialogue and extra lore included?


Caledor

Quote from: MaxiPower on 23, April, 2015, 05:47:12 PM
Is this the hack with changes to dialogue and extra lore included?
Nope. Gameplay changes only.

Rolina

Quote from: Caledor on 23, April, 2015, 08:28:16 AM
Don't get me wrong it's not like i completely despise them, but the way they are now they are extremely underwhelming late-game, because there are better options. With the casting advantage practically gone due to the patch, the selling points of mono elemental classes are: better at unleashing djinn, stronger summoning (cause summon rushing is not everything, and i'm going to outright remove that possibility against the 4 superbosses), and resilience to set/recovery djinn (not so much when compared to dual element classes but tri-elemental classes are much harder to manage when facing djinn blast/storm/stun).

As they are now i see them as beginner classes. Extremely good early game but they start losing their appeal once you get around 4-5 djinn per pg, to become almost useless when everyone has 9 djinn.

So here's my suggestion: give mono elemental classes their much needed 6th tier at 9 djinn: this will give them better stats (avg on my class chart would be around 138/139, right below item classes), and they'll regain their casting advantage thanks to the higher PP. What do you think?
I think there's a few problems here.

First - the fact that base classes start to loose hold as the game progresses
Second - the fact that alt classes take until midgame to pick up steam
Third - the fact that alt classes start to outshine base classes at late game.

Giving base classes an extra tier isn't going to solve the problem.  That's like taking allergy meds to fight the flu - you're combating the symptoms, not the problem itself.  You'll want to tweak classes all around here.  Make the learning of spells staggered a bit better in alt classes so that they don't have to wait long times between new spells.  That should help with early to mid game issues.  For base classes, look for subtle ways to improve them at what you'd consider a mid tier class in order to have them keep up.  For late game, it's more likely that alt-classes got too strong, rather than base classes being too weak.  After checking the new level of balance after the first two tweaks, if Alt classes are still dominant, consider subtle nerfs.

And when I say subtle, I mean subtle.  We're talking a 5% buff or nerf to maybe one stat to help give it an edge or weaken it a bit.  Tweak it, test it, see if it needs more improvement.  Spell selection is also important.  Something as simple as swapping out Delusion for an ailment that doesn't suck, or swapping in delusion in place of a stronger ability would go a long way.  And don't forget the importance of proper spell progression!  A powerful class is usless in midgame if it learns no new spells to cast!  Sure, having both Plasma and Prism may sound cool in theory, but it's only ever good in practice just after you learn those spells.

And as I mentioned before - take a hard look at the classes and ask yourself what role that class has in battle.  If the adept is that class, what is their goal?  If you have an overabundance of one role over another, you may have yourself a problem - the imbalance of classes may actually just be a better selection with certain setups.

VardenSalad

Sorry to butt into a far more meta-game focused discussion, but it appears that Veteran Felix (6 :VenusDjinni:) doesn't have Odyssey. This is correct, yes? I only ask because it isn't specified on the class chart, per se.
Never forget why you started playing.

Caledor

#175
Quote from: VardenSalad on 23, April, 2015, 09:17:09 PM
Sorry to butt into a far more meta-game focused discussion, but it appears that Veteran Felix (6 :VenusDjinni:) doesn't have Odyssey. This is correct, yes? I only ask because it isn't specified on the class chart, per se.
Yes it's intended. I shifted the second tier of the EPA to one djinn later, so EPAs like Odissey, Diamond Berg etc are only learned when the classes reaches the 7 djinn tier or higher.

Quote from: Rolina on 23, April, 2015, 06:10:53 PM
I think there's a few problems here.

First - the fact that base classes start to loose hold as the game progresses
Second - the fact that alt classes take until midgame to pick up steam
Third - the fact that alt classes start to outshine base classes at late game.

And when I say subtle, I mean subtle.  We're talking a 5% buff or nerf to maybe one stat to help give it an edge or weaken it a bit.  Tweak it, test it, see if it needs more improvement.  Spell selection is also important.  Something as simple as swapping out Delusion for an ailment that doesn't suck, or swapping in delusion in place of a stronger ability would go a long way.  And don't forget the importance of proper spell progression!  A powerful class is usless in midgame if it learns no new spells to cast!  Sure, having both Plasma and Prism may sound cool in theory, but it's only ever good in practice just after you learn those spells.

And as I mentioned before - take a hard look at the classes and ask yourself what role that class has in battle.  If the adept is that class, what is their goal?  If you have an overabundance of one role over another, you may have yourself a problem - the imbalance of classes may actually just be a better selection with certain setups.
IMO the extra tier will at least completely solve the third problem, because it will put mono elemental classes on equal footing with the others. I can't see how you can do it without taking this step... you're basically trying to make a Templar as good as a Paladin without switching to it.

The first and second problem are very intertwined with each other. To drift away from mono elemental classes means to trade raw power for versatility, but early to mid game you don't have access to that versatility just because you lack the levels, and thus the spell selection that is the very core of it. At 4-5 Djinn is worth trying the change cause:
A) you gained some levels and thus, some versatility.
B) you can exploit the extra tier the 2-elemental classes have at 5 Djinn.
C) some alt classes just don't cut it without the spells you learn once you hit the 4-djinn threshold (Wizard, Guru).

As for staggering spells, I don't see that being much of an issue. The good thing about this class system is that it is quite flexible, so if a class is lacking in damage cause it isn't learning new spells you can just change your class setup. This is a very good thing to me instead, because it encourages players to try new classes, not to mention that no one is asking you to stick to a single class setup from the beginning to the end, and that we are limited to 16 spells, so it's not easy at all to give the class some spells mid game and at the same time not to make it suck badly late-game.

Aile~♥

One advantage to the PP multiplier patch is that staggering spells is less detrimental to your elemental variety by endgame. One more thing to consider: A base class has an inherent disadvantage compared to a dual- or tri-element class regardless of statistical differences: while a base class has more elemental power with which to simply click offensive spells, they can't reliably target a foe's weakest elemental resistance to maximize damage output. Targeting your foe's weakest element can make a huge difference in damage output. (To the point where in one of my hacks that uses the PP multiplier patch, it's frequently more effective for a Sheba with only 1 Mars Djinni to Fireball a Fire-weak enemy than it is for her to Ray them, even though both spells have 65 base power and her Jupiter power is significantly higher than her Mars power.) And that's on top of the limited variety of status spells a base class can have access to compared to a dual- or tri-element class. (Although as you are the developer, that can be fixed simply by adding duplicate status spells with different elements.)

If it takes 4 Djinn for a class to get a relevant spell, you could reduce the requirement to 2 Djinn depending on the spell in question (obviously, area heals such as Wish are going to be restricted to 4 Djinn regardless because anything earlier is pretty much inherently broken).
[sprite=16, 6, 0]:P[/sprite]

Lloyd: Easy as pie.
Genis: Sweet!
Presea: ...Sweetie pie...
Zelos: Let's not start on this again...

[spoiler=epic mindscrew][/spoiler]

Rolina

#177
There's a few things you can do to change stuff:

1:  Consider changing some Full Party Healing to Multi Target Healing - healing is affected by diminishing power too.  Here's some revamping to healing I've done.  It alters the balance of it a bit, which I'll explain table by table.

Changes to ST Healing were done to alleviate the formula breaking that the Pray/Ply series does.  However, simply fixing it to fit formula makes it utterly worthless compared to Wish - healing a meager 60 hp more to a single target.  The higher values are necessary to make it worth bothering with at all.  As such, the formula itself has been changed from 2x per tier rank up, to 2.5x per tier rank up.  This avoids the somewhat OP nature of Pure Pray, while still allowing it to be rather potent.  It also gives similar potency to other spell families of its type.  Cure and Boon have been slightly buffed to allow for the addition of Heart, but without allowing Hearth to be utterly worthless.  If following patterns form the canon games, Hearth would be the same power as it's Full Party counterpart (Aura), and as such there'd be no point.  Their level requirement and costs have been adjusted to compensate.  In addition, healing itself is more expensive - it was too cheap in base game anyways.

.                 ,-------------------------------.
 Single Target   | Element | Rng | Lv | PP | Pow |
,-----------------+---------+-----+----+----+-----|
| Hearth          |    Mars |   1 |  1 |  3 |  70 |
| Warm Hearth     |    Mars |   1 | 11 |  8 | 175 |
| Soothing Hearth |    Mars |   1 | 30 | 18 | 435 |
>----------------+---------+-----+----+----+----<
| Cure            |   Venus |   1 |  2 |  4 |  80 |
| Cure Well       |   Venus |   1 | 13 |  9 | 200 |
| Potent Cure     |   Venus |   1 | 32 | 20 | 500 |
>----------------+---------+-----+----+----+----<
| Boon            | Jupiter |   1 |  3 |  4 |  90 |
| Nature's Boon   | Jupiter |   1 | 16 | 10 | 225 |
| Vital Boon      | Jupiter |   1 | 34 | 22 | 560 |
>----------------+---------+-----+----+----+----<
| Pray            | Mercury |   1 |  4 |  4 | 100 |
| Pray Well       | Mercury |   1 | 18 | 11 | 250 |
| Pure Pray       | Mercury |   1 | 36 | 24 | 625 |
`-------------------------------------------------'



MT healing takes advantage of the fact that Healing can, in fact, be affected by diminishing areas.  Just change its range and BAM, everyone's not getting healed for the same.  It's designed to be between ST and FP healing in strength, and as a result has also been given a Tier 2 restriction.  You have to have a 2 djinn class to use these.  Their power increase is 2.25x per tier.  Note that the Care line is known as the Fresh Breeze line in the US.  I'm using the JP name for consistency (one should follow naming conventions, dammit!).  It's placed here as a reference to how it was area healing gotten early.

.                 ,-------------------------------.
 Multi Target    | Element | Rng | Lv | PP | Pow |
,-----------------+---------+-----+----+----+-----|
| Glow            |    Mars |   3 |  4 |  4 |  60 |
| Warm Glow       |    Mars |   5 | 14 | 10 | 135 |
| Soothing Glow   |    Mars |   7 | 33 | 21 | 300 |
>----------------+---------+-----+----+----+----<
| Aid             |   Venus |   3 |  6 |  5 |  70 |
| Aid Well        |   Venus |   5 | 17 | 11 | 155 |
| Potent Aid      |   Venus |   7 | 36 | 23 | 345 |
>----------------+---------+-----+----+----+----<
| Care            | Jupiter |   3 |  7 |  6 |  80 |
| Tender Care     | Jupiter |   5 | 20 | 13 | 180 |
| Hearted Care    | Jupiter |   7 | 39 | 26 | 405 |
>----------------+---------+-----+----+----+----<
| Anoint          | Mercury |   3 |  8 |  7 |  90 |
| Anoint Well     | Mercury |   5 | 22 | 15 | 200 |
| Pure Anoint     | Mercury |   7 | 41 | 28 | 450 |
`-------------------------------------------------'


Full Party healing has basically been upped in cost.  In terms of power, it's essentially the same.  I've nerfed Pure Wish, but only a small amount so that it follows formula.  I'm sure you can see, but I'm very strict with spells following proper formula rules.  Obviously, all of these spells can only be accessed in Tier 3 classes and above (4 djinn classes).

.                 ,-------------------------------.
 Full Party      | Element | Rng | Lv | PP | Pow |
,-----------------+---------+-----+----+----+-----|
| Aura            |    Mars | ALL |  7 |  5 |  50 |
| Cool Aura       |    Mars | ALL | 16 | 11 | 100 |
| Soothing Aura   |    Mars | ALL | 33 | 21 | 200 |
>----------------+---------+-----+----+----+----<
| Heal            |   Venus | ALL |  8 |  7 |  60 |
| Heal Well       |   Venus | ALL | 20 | 13 | 120 |
| Potent Heal     |   Venus | ALL | 38 | 25 | 240 |
>----------------+---------+-----+----+----+----<
| Breeze          | Jupiter | ALL | 10 |  8 |  70 |
| Fresh Breeze    | Jupiter | ALL | 24 | 16 | 140 |
| Soothing Breeze | Jupiter | ALL | 42 | 28 | 280 |
>----------------+---------+-----+----+----+----<
| Wish            | Mercury | ALL | 12 |  9 |  80 |
| Wish Well       | Mercury | ALL | 27 | 18 | 160 |
| Pure Wish       | Mercury | ALL | 46 | 31 | 320 |
`-------------------------------------------------'


I also have ideas for single target and full party regen lines, but unless you code those from scratch we're better off ignoring them for now.


2: stagger spell categories better.  With properly scaling spells, there's no need to double up on power spells.  This should bring down the OP nature of some classes like Wizard and help to make them more viable in mid-game.

3: Symbiotic classes (the 6-tier ones) can easily be fixed by making them a half-tier weaker than other classes in their first tier.  Drop their stats by 5% across the board.  From there, it's spells you need to look at.

4: PP and ATK.  Be mindful of these multipliers - they're the main offenses.  Consider swapping 5% here or there to other stats, such as the defenses and Agility.  Small tweaks can make all the difference int he long run.

5: Useful spells.  No, seriously.  There's plenty of spells that aren't all that effective in GS.  If a class is to powerful, give it slightly less useful spells.  If one is too weak, give it slightly more useful spells.  

6: Spell Tier variance.  What is this, you ask?  Well, consider this - the final forms of spells could be more powerful in base classes, but have an effect in alt-classes.  For example, Felix could learn Wild Growth in his base class, but Frenzy Growth in an alt class.  Frenzy growth is 10-20% weaker, but has an effect.  In this case, it has a chance to lower agility!  Swapping out power for utility can actually not only help nerf some classes, but outright change the way you use them, often for the better.




Edit:  Right!~  You've changed damage formulas, haven't you?  If you can, see about changing healing's Magnitude (AoE diminishing rate) to be the same as Diminishing AoE.  That should ensure a good balance for the MT healing.  If you think that's too much, use Summon's diminishing ranges instead.  These should keep ST and FP healing untouched, but would allow for a more fine-tuned MT Healing.

Caledor

#178
1: I already considered the possibility of creating MT healing... it's not like i scrapped it but it wasn't convinced enough with it to put it into practice. I do agree on making healing more expensive. In my patch i already raised the cost of the highest tier of ST healing and of all full party healing. Pure Wish is the one that suffered the most from it, with is BP reduced to 320 and PP cost raised to an enormous 48. This was also done to make healers opt for PP regeneration and thus have less offensive capabilities due to lower power/maxPP.

And yes, i tend to follow formulas as well, but i'm not so strict with them... i'd rather say that i use them as a starting point but if things don't "feel" right to me i have no qualms in drifting from them.

What i'm totally against is give every element ST/MP/FP healing. My magic number for those powerful abilities is 2. Up to 2 elements are allowed to have them, that's why i made the venus impact, mercury ward and mars revive.

Also, if you're intrested i managed to implement and test regen abilities, using lord squirtle's advanced regeneration. I wanted to make a mercury djinn with that ability (i'll always leave unique or very powerful effects to djinn).

2. all i can say not is that i'll think about it... but maybe the most i'll do is to slightly nerf/replace some psynergies.

3. i didn't really get this one but every dual classes has 6 tiers and obviously the jump from 4 to 5 djinn increases the stats by the half of what gaining a tier normally does (since usually there are 2 djinn between a tier and the next). The same concept has been applied to the tri-elemental's jump from 8 to 9 djinn (and will be applied to mono elemental classes if i add the 9-djinn tier), and adapted to item classes, where there are 3 djinn between tiers.

4-5-6. Roger

As a side note... why Pray over Ply? You just don't like Ply or there's something else?

VardenSalad

Hey Cale,

Could you explain in detail how the new Reflux works? I was trying to pop it often in the Poseidon fight to get 4 counters from the AoE and it appears to not exactly work as I'd hoped. I'm gonna guess for multi-targets it just picks one of the party to counter?

Never forget why you started playing.