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[RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age

Started by Caledor, 24, January, 2015, 12:29:46 PM

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Rolina

#220
I've got plenty, though not necessarily for the GS base classes.  I'm content to leave them as they were localized, personally.


Edit:  I take it back.  I don't like illusionist for Ivan - I don't think it fits his character.  Maybe as an alt-class, but as a main?  He's more of a traditionalist mage, not a specialist in a particular school of spellcraft.

@Mia:  Acolyte.

VardenSalad

#221
I think Acolyte is in use already. As one of the Mars/Jupiter classes, I think? Need to check the class spreadsheet.

Yep, it's in use.
Never forget why you started playing.

Caledor

Quote from: VardenSalad on 01, May, 2015, 03:26:20 PM
I think Acolyte is in use already. As one of the Mars/Jupiter classes.
Exactly

Rolina

...And?

Classes and spells share names all the time.  Acolyte is religious, and below cleric.

Caledor

Quote from: Rolina on 01, May, 2015, 09:36:38 PM
Classes and spells share names all the time.  Acolyte is religious, and below cleric.
Well, just not in this mod. I made a point long ago of giving each set of classes unique names and i it took me quite some time to accomplish that, so i won't be making an exception now. And officiant is pretty much the same... either right below or directly after, but certainly moving cleric down by 1 isn't an issue.

Rolina

I'm still not sure what the problem with the default names were, to be honest.  At least for base classes, that is...

Caledor

Regarding Mia... I never said i was against using Priest and/or Bishop... i just never mentioned them cause they always felt too "male" to me (especially Bishop)... but if you prefer one of those to officiant, which is my favorite pick atm, ok then.

Regarding Ivan, Illusionist actually IS one of his default names, but i agree with you that it seems a bit out of place with the others. The problem is that I sort of finished the synonyms of mage (like i already said in previous posts) so, reluctantly, i had to mention it again as a last resort thing.

The others are finished.

Rolina

I mean, using default names for base classes, period.  Well, save for Felix and Sheba, of course...

Caledor

Quote from: Rolina on 02, May, 2015, 12:48:39 PM
I mean, using default names for base classes, period.  Well, save for Felix and Sheba, of course...
Because if something can be improved... why not?

Rolina

Well, there's a difference between can be, and needs to be. :P

Can base classes be improved?  Sure.  Tie them closer to stats, and maybe boost them by 5% across the board (save luck) if that isn't enough.  Add a cover/counter spell to garet (that reflux effect spell), give ailments better success rates and make delusion a legit threat (for Ivan), make Pier's base class use water spells instead of ice, and for the most part you'll be good.  The names don't really need to be changed, save for Felix and Sheba.

Basically, my approach is "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". :3

Caledor

Quote from: Rolina on 02, May, 2015, 04:56:15 PM
Well, there's a difference between can be, and needs to be. :P

Can base classes be improved?  Sure.  Tie them closer to stats, and maybe boost them by 5% across the board (save luck) if that isn't enough.  Add a cover/counter spell to garet (that reflux effect spell), give ailments better success rates and make delusion a legit threat (for Ivan), make Pier's base class use water spells instead of ice, and for the most part you'll be good.  The names don't really need to be changed, save for Felix and Sheba.

Basically, my approach is "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". :3
Piers/Water done, 5% boost done.
Cover/Counter won't happen in the foreseeable future cause i lack the icon (i'd use a red reflect).
What about delusion and Ivan?

For the names... well it changes depending on what you consider being "broke". A wrong translation can be broke or be acceptable. Depending on the context, you sometimes HAVE TO change a term to something entirely different.
Changing Orochi to Serpent is not "wrong" at first sight, but it becomes outright idiotic the moment you add the entire izumo setting to the equation.
Changing all that Senshi/Kenshi/Mahokenshi/Mahosenshi class names thing to Squire/Guard/Apprentice/Page is wrong, but is not "broke" cause it would be impossible to replicate into another language properly so a change is acceptable and even advised.
Dragonslayer and Lord are both perfect translations (they're written in katakana after all...) but one of them has to go cause they don't really blend well together. Just like Scribe with Angel.
Hope I made my point... This is just how I look at things. :)

Rolina

Wait, icons are all you need for that?  Pfft, I do those all the freaking time!  Name the spell and describe what what you think it should look like.  I'll make a set for ya.

Ivan's a support class more than he is an offensive class.  The best thing you can do to help support classes is to make sure their supports matter.  Delusion's problem is that it only affects the attack command.  Give it a 33% drop to the accuracy of all abilities, and suddenly it becomes a decent ailment.  Making it so that break isn't auto-hit, and has a chance to fail helps to keep his buffs up.  Increasing the infliction rate of effect only spells also works well to buff his class (the High/Mid/Low infliction rate for each ailment we discussed earlier).  Support classes are improved simply by making support more worthwhile.

Amusingly, another thing you can do is on the enemy's end.  Making foes stronger encourages players to do more than just "damage and kill" strategies - inflicting paralysis to a target or sleep to a few if they're particularly troublesome could add an element to strategy that support classes can capitalize on.  Finding ways to inflict break-type effects without just giving all the bosses break would be a good idea as well - for example, an attack that damages a target and has a chance to inflict the break effect (at a lower likelyhood of infliction compared to the normal spell, of course).  You've already done a pretty good job so far from what I've seen, though I'm still too early to where Ivan makes his switch from offensive caster to support caster.  I can't give a good estimate to how well his class has upgraded until then.


When it comes to the base class names, those are the only thing that I wouldn't change.  The main reason here is the associations.  People have come to see these characters with certain classes, which is why even though I dislike Jenna with the class name of Justice, I'd leave it alone.  You're not wrong in changing it, it's just a difference in philosophy the two of us have.  I'm all for the name changes in the alt-classes, though.  Enough changes are made to those that previous associations may do more harm than good.

VardenSalad

Doing statistical class alterations is beyond what I'm willing to try and get involved in for patch feedback. Beyond stating a case for the 'feel' and relative power of some classes, I'm really just going along for the ride in terms of balance and giving my feedback where I feel appropriate. I'll throw my opinions out for the non-numerical stuff, but on the whole, I'm not looking to give any advice on changing numbers, so I won't.

Same thing with the names: I've given my opinions and I'll take the outcome.

I'm currently post-Reunion and completed Magma Rock. Is there anything you'd like specific feedback on? I believe my last feedback post is sometime before Lemuria.
Never forget why you started playing.

Caledor

QuoteWait, icons are all you need for that?  Pfft, I do those all the freaking time!  Name the spell and describe what what you think it should look like.  I'll make a set for ya.
If you can also put them back in the game we're set. I know how to edit icons as well, what is hindering me is the compression.

QuoteIvan's a support class more than he is an offensive class.  The best thing you can do to help support classes is to make sure their supports matter.  Delusion's problem is that it only affects the attack command.  Give it a 33% drop to the accuracy of all abilities, and suddenly it becomes a decent ailment.  Making it so that break isn't auto-hit, and has a chance to fail helps to keep his buffs up.  Increasing the infliction rate of effect only spells also works well to buff his class (the High/Mid/Low infliction rate for each ailment we discussed earlier).  Support classes are improved simply by making support more worthwhile.
I'd like to do it too, as well as changing haunt, death curse to 4 turns in GS, ailment recovery rate formula etc... but i don't know the code that deeply.

QuoteWhen it comes to the base class names, those are the only thing that I wouldn't change.  The main reason here is the associations.  People have come to see these characters with certain classes, which is why even though I dislike Jenna with the class name of Justice, I'd leave it alone.  You're not wrong in changing it, it's just a difference in philosophy the two of us have.  I'm all for the name changes in the alt-classes, though.  Enough changes are made to those that previous associations may do more harm than good.
Y' know, i've worked on other games' "retranslation" a few times, and i've witnessed many other people doing so. Hurting the fanbase's feelings by changing what they grew attached to is a constant issue that has to be dealt with every single time, and i really appreciate the fact that you're wise enough to recognize the problem for what it truly is. No one likes doing this the first times but everyone eventually overcomes that, both the gamers and the hackers.

Quote from: VardenSalad on 03, May, 2015, 02:36:35 AM
I'm currently post-Reunion and completed Magma Rock. Is there anything you'd like specific feedback on? I believe my last feedback post is sometime before Lemuria.
Report on anything you want to report on. I haven't reached that part of the game myself since i released the hack due to lack of free time, so i really don't know what i could ask you. Maybe the most sensitive things like superbosses, or even the battle atop Jup Lighthouse, but other than that i leave it up to you.

VardenSalad

@Caledor: Ok, I'll try and make a feedback post that isn't just rambling (compared to my Air's Rock post. I over-stepped a bit there.) It'll probably be a bit haphazard.

If possible, you should go through your item descriptions and synchronize the wording or tenses for some effects. For example, Felix right now has the Minerva Helm (Raises PP), Titan Gloves (Boost Earth Power), Chronos Mail (Boosts HP), Dragon Boots (Boost Resist), and the Golden Shirt (Boosts HP). The Silkl Bustier has Boosts PP, instead of Raises PP. Sheba has the Crown of Glory (Restores PP) and the Adept Ring (Replenishes PP). Piers has the Dragon Scales (Resists Fire) and the Fur Boots (Resist Water). The Lucky Medal is "Medal for use in A special fountain; the Game Ticket is "Ticket for use in special game" 
The Warrior's Helm (Boosts Earth power) and the Golden Ring (Boosts elemental Power). Spirit Gloves is Boost PP. I hope you don't think this is nitpicky.

I was initially surprised by the level of nerfs the Masamune took. I was lucky enough for Sunshine to craft a Mythril Blade out of the Silver you get in Loho, and those weapons were relatively equal in vanilla, with Masamune having a much better unleash. I know that a lot of Masamune's power was shifted into its +AGI (which is totally fine, considering the power its unleash has) and I like the change.

The cursed equipment I have right now is crazy strong. That's good.

I haven't run into a lot of the crafted equipment yet, but I'm interested to see what the comparisons look like for a lot of the endgame items. Some of the changes you made to items shifted a lot of the power from ATK to other facets, like +AGI on the Masamune or the + :MarsStar: PWR and +MaxPP on the Salamander Rod. Those other factors are what give the equipment in Golden Sun a soul; the equipment really becomes unique and feels like in belongs in the GS world. Think of the Festival Happi. The +Luck changes the face of the item completely and it becomes a unique part of Izumo. (This particular part of the Golden Sun universe was one of the biggest things I was looking forward to in Golden Sun 4 since I assumed they would add Dark :Luna: and Light :Sol: Adepts. Something like Phaeton's Blade, Hypnos' Blade, the SOL blade, the DARKsword and the Dark Matter equipment take on a new life when its origin has a stake in the GS universe.)

Psynergy still feels really strong, even this late in game. Especially since the casters really aren't doing damage with attacking, unless you get lucky and they unleash. Psynergy is safe and AoE for casters. Healing is crazy expensive, and I'm actually kind of afraid that when I run into the superbosses, my healer will get wiped and I won't be able to revive them and heal everyone fast enough before I get wiped.







Never forget why you started playing.

Caledor

Quote
[...]
I hope you don't think this is nitpicky.
Not at all. It was immensely useful and i will certainly fix them.

QuoteI was initially surprised by the level of nerfs the Masamune took.
Couldn't be helped. The only thing you need to access the Masamune is Force, which is available right after you light Jup Lighthouse. This means that the Masamune can't be much stronger than the Phaeton's Blade, which is obtained inside the lighthouse.

VardenSalad

I'm pretty much of the same opinion as you on the issue. That's why I'm really looking forward to seeing the changes on the endgame equipment. I'm generally of the opinion that the crafted weapons should be comparatively stronger than their alternatives, and that the more difficult equipment in general is to obtain, the stronger it should be. The Sol Blade is an outlier for that, but the devs for Golden Sun really wanted to make sure everyone got the ultimate weapon, which is fine.
Never forget why you started playing.

Rolina

Quote from: Caledor on 03, May, 2015, 12:02:35 PM
QuoteWait, icons are all you need for that?  Pfft, I do those all the freaking time!  Name the spell and describe what what you think it should look like.  I'll make a set for ya.
If you can also put them back in the game we're set. I know how to edit icons as well, what is hindering me is the compression.

I think Lord Squirtle knows something about it.  Contact him about adding new icons to the game.  It's one of the things I hope we can get into a new version of the editor, if someone actually makes a new one.

@Hurting Feelings:  That's not at all something I care about.  If I did, I'd not rework Piers class so it makes god damned sense for a mariner.  I'm more worried about potential confusion it may cause.

@Dark and Light: ...don't get me started on that.  Seriously, we have a whole thread to debate dark and light adepts and why they make no god damned sense for GS.

VardenSalad

@Dark and Light: I didn't really care what kind of sense they made in the context of the first two games. And, apparently, neither did Camelot. I was pumped as @#$% to see how they were going to work the concept into the next game; I don't really care if it would have worked all that well as long as it had some kind of redeeming factor and added something to the series as a whole.

Adding Dark and Light Adepts would have been an innovation that was sorely lacking in Dark Dawn. Outside of presenting a very in-your-face kind of relationship with the concept of death, Dark Dawn really didn't add anything new in terms of gameplay and scope, and what they did to the lore is a mess. I wanted them to add Dark and Light Adepts and I wanted it to work well. But I wanted a lot of things out of Camelot that didn't come to pass. They made a really half-assed Golden Sun game, shoved 8 characters into the story when they only needed 4, and generally made a mess of the world the first two games built. Also, the whole game takes place on the bottom screen of the DS, and whoever made that decision should have been punched. They pretty much set the bar for graphics on the GBA and they dumped Dark Dawn in our laps.

Dark and Light Adepts would have been cool if they'd done it well. That's a big, fat IF.
Never forget why you started playing.

Rolina

The problem is that they couldn't be bothered to go the distance.  Both the Pro-Fundament and Anti-Fundament camps got pissed off because yeah, they're things, but... the hell are they?  Even the so-called Dark Adepts didn't have a spell to their name.  For all the fuss, it was over a whole lot of nothing.  I'm firmly in the Anti-Fundament camp, but even I would have preferred a full and proper transfer to a 6-element system than the half-hearted THING we got in DD... =_=

Still, let's take any more discussion of this to proper thread.  I don't wanna get in trouble for going off topic.