News:

As a consequence of the forum being updated and repaired, the chatbox has been lost.
However, you can still come say hi on our Discord server!

Main Menu

[RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age

Started by Caledor, 24, January, 2015, 12:29:46 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 4 Guests are viewing this topic.

Misery

Hmm, it's been quite some time since I said anything here, but I'm seeing a few things I'd like to comment on.

About Break, what it does in practice for bosses that have it is to turn any of your buffs into a trade of one of your actions for one of the boss's. It's an effective but unconventional mechanic, certainly not one players should be expected to plan around, which seems like reason enough not to design gameplay around it. Another reason is that it undermines some class variety, since it makes little difference which buffs a class has. Stat changes are also one added layer of complexity in a system that leaves very little room for complexity, the rest boils down to hurt and heal aside from the djinn system. I feel that putting break on bosses instead of considering the possibility of buffed stats when balancing essentially just dumbs the strategy down.

As for using djinn to buff, one may want to consider putting them on the same level as other target-all buffs (whether that is one or two stages is obviously up to the designer). They're already usable regardless of class, have no PP cost, and free up djinn for a summon. I don't think there's any need for them to also be stronger.

About Djinn Storm, when the player has a backup party and full revive, it feels like fair game, as long as the boss in question doesn't have a move with enough damage to instantly down four Djinn Stormed characters. It's really the only way to put pressure on the party under those conditions. It still needs to have sufficiently long intervals, the way it currently does - completely random Djinn Storm would make the battles that have it too luck dependent.

But on a different note, I want to give my thanks for the summon gating mechanic. It  prevents bypassing the turn cost of summons without getting in the way of anything else. What I proposed way back was a system where you'd have to manually unleash every djinn that was required for the summon, but setting djinn to standby in preparation for summons is part of the game too so it's kind of hard to argue for. The gating comes with its own balancing issue, being that when you enable a summon you allow any number of it, but overall, I think it seems like the best solution. Personally I think every summon should be available from turn 5 though, since it does not realistically take longer than to set them up even before considering the djinn cost reductions in this patch.

dive_darkness

Alright, first post about TLA.

Pretty straightforward start. The first few enemies are weak. Was surprised by the ant since it hurts a lot, but killed it without any problems. Now, first thing to notice: Sheba is made of sugar now. When damages rains, she just melt down. And enemies hit harder than before.

Kandor temple:
Amazes are crap. Deal 10-12 damage with best equipment at that moment, and they give only 6 exp.
Now, nothing too terrible if you just start all normal fights by summoning venus (it helps saving a loooooooot of pp).
The mimic was harder than I thought. Still beat it on my first try with Venus + fire wall.

The monkeys are luck based. You must equip the mysterious card, and spam the blinding spell every turn and hope it proc. Spamming fire wall in hope to get their hp down and heal with sheba.
Also note that every herb used by the monkeys will basically nullify one fire wall. So just hope they spam the herbs on the same monkey again and again. Otherwise you'll just run out of pp without killing any and die.
Conclusion:  very luck based, maybe much easier with items.

PS: still playing without using any item if I can.

Aile~♥

Quote from: dive_darkness on 04, April, 2016, 11:40:22 AMNow, first thing to notice: Sheba is made of sugar now. When damages rains, she just melt down. And enemies hit harder than before.
Fun fact, in vanilla GS Sheba is actually the bulkier of the two Wind Seers. She has higher Defence growth than Ivan (180% growth rate versus his 160% growth rate iirc).
[sprite=16, 6, 0]:P[/sprite]

Lloyd: Easy as pie.
Genis: Sweet!
Presea: ...Sweetie pie...
Zelos: Let's not start on this again...

[spoiler=epic mindscrew][/spoiler]

dive_darkness

Sheba is hardcore. I think there should be something like a secret special class just for her that gives her 999 atk, and only physical psy.


On another note, I'm standing in front of madras now.
Djinns. Again. Okay, the first mercury was "hard", because his psy hits hard. Same for Jupiter. Mars in Dehkan is a joke, his psy doesn't hurt at all, and prism (used by Jenna) does more damages than using echo with Felix. Same for the Venus djinn in front of madras.

Aile~♥

#944
Quote from: dive_darkness on 04, April, 2016, 12:28:21 PM
Sheba is hardcore. I think there should be something like a secret special class just for her that gives her 999 atk, and only physical psy.
Of the two Wind Seers, Ivan has higher Attack and Speed, while Sheba has higher HP and Defence. So if she's made of sugar, either that's because her base class has less bulk than Ivan's for no good reason (since that's the opposite of their styles in the normal game), or you can have fun nightmares imagining what Ivan is like in the modded version of GS1.
[sprite=16, 6, 0]:P[/sprite]

Lloyd: Easy as pie.
Genis: Sweet!
Presea: ...Sweetie pie...
Zelos: Let's not start on this again...

[spoiler=epic mindscrew][/spoiler]

Caledor

@Misery
What would be totally wrong is making break an every turn occurrence. As things stand now a 3 turn boss has a 46% chance to cast it each turn on average. Also consider that the first turn you buff from 0 he won't cast it so the whole thing boils down to 1 break in 3 turns. Also, not all bosses have it. Maybe less thaaround half? Don't remember.

Djinn storm is not random at all and has never been as such, not even in vanilla. Both enemies that use it have a sequential attack pattern that has been carefully planned out.

You're welcome for the summon mechanic. I thought you'd like it ;)
As for turn numbers I think you gain Charon at T5 so basically only Iris is left out.

@Sheba/Ivan
Please... read the friggin' first post before writing the same thing 4 times. It's written under the first spoiler: Sheba and Ivan had their stats swapped. Sheba is now the frailest character. Even more-so in her base class. You can even check the exact numbers in the class doc.

About everything else, thanks for reporting Dive. Sadly I won't be able to look at those things before i finish TBS but you can be sure i'll keep your tips in mind when I start TLA. :)

Rolina

#946
@Djinn Storm/Misery: Which Both Djinn Storm users do - Dullahan specifically follows Djinn Storm up with Charon, while the Doom Dragon has reached the point of that fight when he starts spamming Cruel Ruin, which is basically Judgement in Base Power and Iris in HP% damage before those summons got nerfed.  Granted, that's his vanilla form, but still - both Djinn Storms follow up Djinn Storm with ridiculously powerful attacks, negating any class setups you had, nixing djinn stat bonuses, and of course now that we have a right and proper nerfed revive, preventing any real recovery from happening.

@Break:  The biggest problems with break in this hack in particular is the near absence of debuffs, and the fact that monsters that use the skill don't really debuff at all.  The counter to buffs should never be break, but debuffs that not only negate the effects of buffs, but linger, preventing them from being reapplied.  What's more, this doesn't come across as a counter, but as the boss wasting the player's time.

Let's look at other options the players have too:  Ailments are basically useless for the most part as is the case with most jRPGs, and while stun is actually quite effective in this hack, the guys who have break are also immune to it.  Psy Seal is useless since most monsters use 0PP skills anways, many of which are stronger than base damage spells could be, despite what Caledor may feel about Deadbeard.  As for debuffs, they aren't perfectly accurate, but could arguably be more useful than buffs if we ever had freaking access to them.  Like, what the hell?  All I see are buffs everywhere.  Even in the djinn, most of the debuffs are debuff+damage, even the only speed debuff in the game got that treatment.  I shouldn't have to hunt down maledictions, you know.  I don't stick to a single class - I change classes regularly.  You've watched me do this - I'll get a new djinn and look to find a new balance often.  I'm heading to Lunpa tomorrow, and I've already gone through 3-4 class spreads.  Debuffs were so rare I had to go out of my way to look for them in my last stream when I actively needed to use them for what I was trying to do.  Seriously - soooo much stuff buffs, and because of that many of these classes don't seem to have a real identity.  Why the heck does the mystic knight class have a full buff suite?  Given my more character-focused approach to things, here's basically how I'd approach supports:

Isaac:  Ailments and Debuffs
Garet:  Buffs and Debuffs
Ivan:  Buffs and Ailments
Mia:  Buffs and Recovery (Drain, Antidote, etc - the stuff listed as recovery in my spreadsheets)

Would there be a few exceptions?  Of course - particularly with recovery spells (NOT HEALING, but recovery - I consider those separate types of spells).  However, everyone would have their main two, with other sprinkled in rarely.  This gives the characters a clearer purpose.  Do I expect you to follow this?  Hell no.  this isn't my hack, I shouldn't dictate what should be in it.  But if I'm being railroaded into a buff setup with no real alternatives save "damage and heal", then to hell with claims that break isn't frustrating.  It is.  It's not a counter, it's designed to waste my time.  Counter is fine, and I will adapt.  But waiting my time is something I'm never fond of.  I have little reason to use break ever.  Foes just don't buff one another much - they usually work by buffing only themselves with some 0pp monster thing or are solos with abilities that don't have added effects.

So you want me to do something other than buffs?  Freaking support it.  If you want me to use more debuffs, actually give me them.  If you want me to use ailments, lower enemy luck.  If you want me to use recovery spells, have foes use more ailments against me, while also lowering damage taken so I don't have to opt for healing instead.  If you want me to find break useful, not only make break learnable at a reasonable level, but give foes a better way to buff themselves so that it's worth using in the first place.  And if you want me to ever see break as not infuriating, either nerf it so it's no longer a "f*** you", or replace it with debuffs that better act to counter buffs.  Or I dunno, do ALL of that, since it gives me more options to work with.  Just waltzing in and saying "yeah, I think it's just fine, and I beat dullahan on hard soooo many times" makes you seem like a bit of an unreasonable jerk rather than someone who's actually listening to feedback.  

As things stand, I don't think I'll be wasting my time facing Dullahan.  Things are more difficult than they really need to be on normal mode, which is only exasperated by your comment about hard mode.  Summons can't really be used at will, I have to work up for them.  And Iris?  Iris was useless in vanilla.  Not only is she still kinda useless given her cost even after your nerf, but I can't even throw her at normal mobs for sh*ts and giggles thanks to your change to summons... so egads man, what the hell is the point?  Bragging rights?  I'm not a kid.  I turn 29 next month - I have better things to do with my time than go up against an even harder Dullahan with a set of classes that are actually limiting my options, against a boss that can not only negate those options with break, but can say F*** you to my class set up AND Total Party Kill me on the same god damned turn?  Yeah, you go ahead and call that a fair challenge.  I'm going to just play another game.  Because that's how things work.  No, the stupid mind ribbon isn't worth it either.

Difficult is one thing.  Frustrating is another.  And "you just don't get it" isn't a valid argument, no matter what words you use to say it.

@Smarter AI:  You're the only one who's said that.  While yeah, more complex AI would be nice, it's folly to claim that you'd HAVE to have it to get a better break.  That just tells me you WANT to frustrate the player, especially if they go with Buffer/Healer/Attacker/Jack setup like I went with in Dark Dawn.  For me, a more complex AI is better used for other reasons - mainly "IF x, THEN y".  For instance, "IF poisoned, THEN cure poison".  More complex AI is far better for making Ailments more viable options, as it lets you lower enemy luck while preventing them from being overpowering.

@Sheba and Ivan:  Statistically, Sheba is exactly halfway between Ivan and Mia.  If her class multipliers in her base class don't reflect this, then there's your problem.  If Ivan and Sheba had their stats swapped, their class multipliers should be changed to appropriately reflect that.  Also... why?  What was the purpose of the stat swap?  This isn't a criticism, I'm just genuinely curious, I think I missed that part of the discussion.

@Break/previous post:  That in and of itself, the 46% chance, is wrong.  All that does is discourage the use of buffs overall.  If it was a smaller chance, perhaps a 25% chance, then it'd not be too punishing.  But I still stand by the fact that your hack uses far too few debuffs as a whole, on both sides of the field.  Most of what we have to work with are benedictions, it'd be nice to have more options and more stuff we have to account for.  If most of what we have to work with are buffs, that's what we'll use, and pushing us for using what you give us can't be called anything but frustrating.  Games like this should be more than just hurt and heal.  That's the whole point of support spells spells.


Oh, as for your PP comment - if you want me to use those mystic waters, don't make them artifacts - make them common and purchasable.  As they are now, they're better for emergencies.

Aile~♥

#947
Yeah, what is the point in swapping Ivan and Sheba anyway? You just want her to be frail because she's a girl? And what's the point of higher Attack instead of HP/Defence when she's the one who needs to be keeping the party alive while Ivan's the one playing pure offence? What's the point of higher Attack when her base class undermines that by having 5% less Attack multiplier than Ivan's, along with her having a worse weapon set for raw Attack anyway? What's the point of higher Agility when her base class undermines that by having 5% less Agility than Ivan's anyway?

Edit: And yeah there's like 9 debuff series (across all class series) to like 17 buff series (again, across all class series) in this mod's GS1. And Dull is entirely unavailable to Isaac and Garet. In addition, multiple classes gain all of Impact/Guard/Ward, but no class gets the combination of Dull/Impair/Weaken.
[sprite=16, 6, 0]:P[/sprite]

Lloyd: Easy as pie.
Genis: Sweet!
Presea: ...Sweetie pie...
Zelos: Let's not start on this again...

[spoiler=epic mindscrew][/spoiler]

Caledor

#948
I'll keep things short cause I think the whole discussion is becoming far too big.

1- I'll look at Break. First thing that might happen is giving it a slightly lower chance for enemies to cast it. I'll also try to give bosses more debuffs and ailments.
2- More debuffs is already on schedule. I can't promise the same for ailments though, but i'll try. I'd like to tinker with them a lot.
3- I didn't mean to sound unreasonable with Dullahan. The concept i wanted to express was "don't worry too much. If i could do it, everyone can". I must have worded myself poorly.
4- Stat-wise, Sheba now has the lowest atk, def and hp. best PP and Luck and second best agility. I changed those values to reflect the stat multipliers in base classes. The only reason behind this is how i personally view characters. Basically i "see" Sheba as frailer than Ivan.

Hope that this is enough to move on and that next time we'll be discussing actual numbers.

Aile~♥

#949
Quote from: Caledor on 04, April, 2016, 05:25:09 PM
4- Statistically, Sheba now has the lowest atk, def and hp. best PP and Luck and second best agility. I changed those values to reflect the stat multipliers in base classes. The only reason behind this is how i personally view characters. Basically i "see" Sheba as frailer than Ivan.
Just like everyone else in this damn fandom. I swear, random fanfics having Sheba totally unable to take a hit while Ivan has to save her in a typical "chivalrous" fashion. Makes me SO mad because holy crap people, the game stats do in fact exist for a reason. Stats are an abstraction of a character's physical abilities.

Edit: Note that this isn't directed at you specifically. It's something I've seen quite often in the GS fandom, and it annoys me with how common it is. What, is the concept of an Action Girl foreign to literally everyone? Is the idea that women can be competent at physical activity so unbelievable? I've seen 'fics make Jenna out to be as squishy as Ivan normally is while throwing Ivan in with Isaac, Garet, Felix, and Piers!
[sprite=16, 6, 0]:P[/sprite]

Lloyd: Easy as pie.
Genis: Sweet!
Presea: ...Sweetie pie...
Zelos: Let's not start on this again...

[spoiler=epic mindscrew][/spoiler]

Caledor

#950
I don't know what everyone else thinks but in my mod jenna is far superior to ivan physically wise. And Mia has more HP and defense than Ivan, but lower attack. But again, it's just my personal ranking.

Read the values here. The first table contains the actual stats at L99. The second one is just for ranking, from 1st (best) to 8th (worst)

EDIT:
@Debuff update. I've already made some changes.
Before there were 14/11/11 buffs and 5/7/7 debuffs for atk/def/res. Now it's 10/10/10 and 9/10/10. Ignore the numbers I ignored a few relevant facts while counting.

EDIT2:
@Ideas on ailments. Differentiate between stun and sleep, reintroduce paralysis

Salanewt

Caledor: Can't remember what I meant honestly, I was super tired when I wrote that. I think it had something to do with wanting to wait for you to finish ironing out certain details, but I imagine I will end up playing it really soon.

Sheba weaker/Jamie: Funny thing is I always saw Ivan as being the weak character. Mostly because of stats, but they are both basically the same character otherwise (orphan baby given/abandoned with mysterious backgrounds, both wind users, both are short blond teenagers who are around the same age, same class options, very similar weapon preferences, both decide to adventure with you rather than return home...). I think others see her differently from us is because only Sheba was actually ever in a damsel/hostage situation, with Babi first and then Saturos before the Stockholm Syndrome kicked in. I'd give Dark Dawn some credit in that area if not for the fact that it does the same thing to its fire users and doesn't even try to differentiate them with gender or something. Meh.

AI: I don't know, it is a bit odd when an enemy will try to heal scratch damage with a potion every other turn. The AI being random is such a pain for designing enemy strategies around primary targets. Especially when enemy healing "strategies", which should be incredibly simple, don't often work. But I agree with the sentiment that break shouldn't be prioritized over debuffs except in a select few cases.


Oh yeah baby, £ me harder.

Fusion is just a cheap tactic to make weak Adepts stronger.

Yoshi's Lighthouse is a hacking website in progress. Why not check it out if you like Yoshi or the Mario & Luigi games?

Rolina

Just a heads up - tomorrow I won't be able to stream at the normal time.  Gotta stop by the bank so I can pay my rent.  Today should be okay, though.

Caledor

#953
@Squirtle: now that I think about it did you investigate what makes Iron's animation change color halfway?

@Role: No prob. Actually, that implies that v1.35 will be ready sooner cause i can spend more time modding and less playing :P

EDIT: Since the new version won't be ready anytime soon i thought i'd post the new (likely) class lineup so we've got something concrete to discuss. HERE.

As for atk/def/res buff and debuffs the numbers (NOT counting item classes) are 18/15/17 for the buffs (10/7/9 in GS1) and 15/16/15 for the debuffs (7/8/7 in GS1). 4 (2) Poison, 4 (2) Delude, 9 (6) Sleep, 8 (3) Paralysis, 10 (5) Bind, 14 (7) Break, 28 (14) Single target healings, 22 (10) Multi Target Healing, 23 (11) Revives.

Update: Guardian lost Ply for Guard + Avoid. Numbers above reflect this update

Salanewt

I don't think I have yet, actually. I started looking through the buffs one day and then decided to check out a different animation instead. I think it may have been one of the summons, not sure.

Anyway, the goal today is to try to finish this one secret patch that leaf suggested/planned out so I can release that. After that I may get back into the animation stuff, or I may try to finish/fix my time hack.

Classes: I'll wait for others to comment, but neat.
Oh yeah baby, £ me harder.

Fusion is just a cheap tactic to make weak Adepts stronger.

Yoshi's Lighthouse is a hacking website in progress. Why not check it out if you like Yoshi or the Mario & Luigi games?

Rolina

Well, I can say this with certainty - Pretty sure the "may drop to 1 HP" effect has too high a trigger rate.  First fight against Toadonpa spiraled out of control because of that.  Quickly ran out of ways to revive.  Had to reset and swap to cheap tactics.  Never let it be said that Full Symbiotic Setups are fair - doubling up on healing and attack rushes feels too cheap.  Kinda one of the reasons I dislike shared classes as a whole, but there's not much we can do about that given the limited space there is to work with.

Seriously though, check the vid.  I got real frustrated after that first fight.  I honestly think 2xBrute 2xHermit is boring, but I resorted to that in the Toadonpa fight rematch.

Caledor

#956
Quote from: Rolina on 05, April, 2016, 08:03:23 PM
Well, I can say this with certainty - Pretty sure the "may drop to 1 HP" effect has too high a trigger rate.  First fight against Toadonpa spiraled out of control because of that.  Quickly ran out of ways to revive.  Had to reset and swap to cheap tactics.  Never let it be said that Full Symbiotic Setups are fair - doubling up on healing and attack rushes feels too cheap.  Kinda one of the reasons I dislike shared classes as a whole, but there's not much we can do about that given the limited space there is to work with.

Seriously though, check the vid.  I got real frustrated after that first fight.  I honestly think 2xBrute 2xHermit is boring, but I resorted to that in the Toadonpa fight rematch.
I will. Seems strange though, i don't remember touching that one. Currently it's a flat 35% chance (luck is irrelevant unless higher than 40) unless i screwed up something somewhere else, like it loads the wrong value. But IIRC it only triggered once against me when i fought it.

Let me know your thoughts on the updated classes and the numbers also ;)

Aile~♥

"May drop HP to 1" effects used to have a 35% trigger rate that factored Luck, rather than one that doesn't. At least, that's what I remember it being when I went in and boosted the trigger rate of pretty much everything in my personal hack.
[sprite=16, 6, 0]:P[/sprite]

Lloyd: Easy as pie.
Genis: Sweet!
Presea: ...Sweetie pie...
Zelos: Let's not start on this again...

[spoiler=epic mindscrew][/spoiler]

Rolina

#958
Aye - it triggered far too often.  Mia has a freaking LUCK build - she shouldn't be getting slammed by stuff like that as often.  Never have I ever seen that effect trigger so many times, and it made it brutal to face a minor boss that had both that, a two move turn and area attacks.  It wouldn't be nearly as bad if it checked vs luck like pretty much every other effect does (save for Break).  I mean, what's the point of a Luck build if not to help defend against those very abilities?

In other news, I was able to use some debuffs a bit more - they seem more common in tri-element classes.  I do like the higher accuracy of them, both on incoming and outgoing.  Makes them not only far more viable, but a much more notable threat.  In fact, the fact that that boss spammed a lot of DEF- debuffs I thought was kinda brilliant.  It's quite the great combo... but at the same time, I feel that the "may drop to 1" effect may be actually kinda wasted on that battle, at least thematically.  I figure "may inflict stun" or "may reduce defense" or "may pierce defense" would be better for that particular battle.  Still, if you want evidence of the battle, go watch it.  I... got rather pissed at the activation rate, though.  Was not a happy witch for a while afterwards.


@Sheba/Ivan:  Sorry for the slowpoke here, but... Wait, you guys see Sheba as frailer than Ivan?  Huh.  That's news to me.  You two are the first ones I know of who believe that.  I always saw her as the more sturdy one, but also the one that couldn't use the Tisiphone Edge (which is why she wasn't used).  Also, you changed the stats to match the multipliers?  Shouldn't that be the other way around?  I mean, you're changing base classes anyways (as you probably should), so why not tweak things class-side instead of growth-side?

And don't say "it's how you perceived them".  You can't both use that argument and dismiss it at the same time.

Aile~♥

#959
Quote from: Rolina on 05, April, 2016, 10:14:29 PM@Sheba/Ivan:  Sorry for the slowpoke here, but... Wait, you guys see Sheba as frailer than Ivan?  Huh.  That's news to me.  You two are the first ones I know of who believe that.  I always saw her as the more sturdy one, but also the one that couldn't use the Tisiphone Edge (which is why she wasn't used).  Also, you changed the stats to match the multipliers?  Shouldn't that be the other way around?  I mean, you're changing base classes anyways (as you probably should), so why not tweak things class-side instead of growth-side?

And don't say "it's how you perceived them".  You can't both use that argument and dismiss it at the same time.
Huh? I specifically said that people perceiving Sheba as being the frailer of the two is a major Berserk Button for me, and Squirtle agreed that he viewed Ivan as the frailer one, not Sheba.

Edit: And yeah, HP to 1 effects if they're going to be present on a multi-turn boss should be available on the boss's last turn only. And someone really needs to make a patch that forces enemies to target at the beginning of the turn like the player does, rather than targeting as each ability is used. It's a known flaw with Golden Sun's AI. Having a character die to a powerful single-target attack the turn they're revived is BS.

(Actually, iirc a downed character is an option to target, but if they're not alive when that action rolls around it turns into a Defend command instead, like when your target for a standard attack dies before you get around to attacking them.)
[sprite=16, 6, 0]:P[/sprite]

Lloyd: Easy as pie.
Genis: Sweet!
Presea: ...Sweetie pie...
Zelos: Let's not start on this again...

[spoiler=epic mindscrew][/spoiler]