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Author Topic: A Balanced Playthrough  (Read 7414 times)
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I need saves to test encounters in GS Reloaded!

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« Reply #15 on: March 25, 2015, 09:25:13 AM »

Mages cannot equip the open helm
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« Reply #16 on: March 25, 2015, 09:27:16 AM »

What's the comparison between a circlet and the wooden cap then? Does it even trump starting equipment?
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Spoiler for quotes:
[9:00:50 PM] Randel Peltier: Ok...what did I do last night?
[9:01:19 PM] Kain: Something boring, repetitive, and lasted for about sixty seconds.
---
[10:45:08 AM] Salanewt: But yeah, the elemental phalluses are being... Stroked up by Saturos and co., and the energy will go towards... Mt. Muffin, where the Golden Climax will arise.
[7:28:42 PM] Salanewt: An added bonus is that Isaac and co. were trying to stop Saturos and co. because their beliefs state that Mt. Muffin should remain a virgin.
---
[9:54:21 PM] Randel Peltier: Guess the number in my head an you get to pick what I say. Number between 1-10
[9:54:28 PM] leaf: 11
[9:54:36 PM] Randel Peltier: @#$%!
---
[8:38:13 PM] Randel Peltier: Shes like this queen up on a pedastal that I have yet to court.
[8:38:29 PM] Kain: You've tried courting her.
[8:38:43 PM] leaf: and failed spectacularly
[8:38:44 PM] Randel Peltier: Ive tried...shes the best dating game ever.
---
[12:24:35 AM] Salanewt: I need to find a picture of a naked person to put on the Christmas tree next year.
---
[2:19:06 PM] Zeadra: wait... Rief's a guy???
---
[1:09:57 PM] Zeadra: well if you want to know if its a new effect or something weird, just check GS1, if side step is there maby it is the nimble dodge thing
[1:10:35 PM] Kioll: For once, you've contributed something useful.  o.O
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« Reply #17 on: March 25, 2015, 09:32:26 AM »

Yup, the wooden hat is basically an improvement over the circlet. It was the open helm that was completly useless before, so i switched their stats and made the open helm available earlier.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2015, 10:04:46 AM by Caledor » Logged
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« Reply #18 on: March 25, 2015, 11:48:05 AM »

What else does the Wooden Cap offer to make up for its higher price?  Accessibility alone doesn't cut it.  Availability is not an excuse, either - if we were to talk when things should be available, I'd say the Open Helm is gotten too early - swap it with the Wooden Hat if you must.  Or, you could make it so it's like in vanilla, where the more valuable piece of equipment is actually better than the less valuable one - the helm is worse than the hat there.

But yeah, if defense is the only measure, then there is no reason why the helm should cost less than the hat.
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« Reply #19 on: March 25, 2015, 01:59:48 PM »

I can't swap the open helm with the wooden cap because the circlet would become completely useless, and I don't want mages to have stronger gear defense-wise than warriors at any point in the game (at least from shops), so the only option was to move the helm earlier. I can partially agree with what you said in the sense that a 100 coin difference is too much, but keep the categories thing in mind as well, not just accessibility. Between a circlet and a helm with the same defense the circlet is always going to cost more than the helmet only because one is a circlet and the other is an helmet. I think that lowering the hat's price to 240 is a fair compromise (and, on a second check, raise the leather armlet's price to 200, but we're really splitting hairs here).
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« Reply #20 on: March 25, 2015, 05:38:57 PM »

Whenever I got to Bilibin in vanilla GS, I always bought the wooden cap for everyone. IIRC it gives more defense per gold than the open helm or whatever it's called, and it's also not possible to hand it down to Ivan or Mia when I find a better helm, so there was just no reason to buy that.

From memory, mages got really good defensive gear, but it couldn't be updated very often, and class multipliers meant they ended up with lower defense than warriors regardless.
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« Reply #21 on: March 25, 2015, 09:08:13 PM »

Item classes should never be followed to the letter, anyway. It's a guideline, not a commandment. If in using them, you end up with an obvious outlier, you need to adjust it. If the class as a whole is underwhelming, then that's another story entirely, and needs to be looked at.
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Spoiler for quotes:
[9:00:50 PM] Randel Peltier: Ok...what did I do last night?
[9:01:19 PM] Kain: Something boring, repetitive, and lasted for about sixty seconds.
---
[10:45:08 AM] Salanewt: But yeah, the elemental phalluses are being... Stroked up by Saturos and co., and the energy will go towards... Mt. Muffin, where the Golden Climax will arise.
[7:28:42 PM] Salanewt: An added bonus is that Isaac and co. were trying to stop Saturos and co. because their beliefs state that Mt. Muffin should remain a virgin.
---
[9:54:21 PM] Randel Peltier: Guess the number in my head an you get to pick what I say. Number between 1-10
[9:54:28 PM] leaf: 11
[9:54:36 PM] Randel Peltier: @#$%!
---
[8:38:13 PM] Randel Peltier: Shes like this queen up on a pedastal that I have yet to court.
[8:38:29 PM] Kain: You've tried courting her.
[8:38:43 PM] leaf: and failed spectacularly
[8:38:44 PM] Randel Peltier: Ive tried...shes the best dating game ever.
---
[12:24:35 AM] Salanewt: I need to find a picture of a naked person to put on the Christmas tree next year.
---
[2:19:06 PM] Zeadra: wait... Rief's a guy???
---
[1:09:57 PM] Zeadra: well if you want to know if its a new effect or something weird, just check GS1, if side step is there maby it is the nimble dodge thing
[1:10:35 PM] Kioll: For once, you've contributed something useful.  o.O
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« Reply #22 on: March 25, 2015, 10:10:04 PM »

Maybe it's just me but I can't see the issue with the wooden cap. The trade is one point less in defense and 40 more coins in price on a side and later availability, higher accessibility and making a once completely skipped item (Open Helm) actually useful on the other. And item classes somehow existed in vanilla GS as well, see Steel Helm and Guardian Circlet or Silver Helm and Platinum Circlet, in both cases the Circlet has less defense and is priced higher.

Anyway, v1.20 is up.
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« Reply #23 on: March 25, 2015, 11:03:40 PM »

The developers also thought that a 99% unleash rate for 75% of the party was a good idea, and to make those same items the best defensive items in the game.  The point being here that the developers were wrong.  If defense is all an item provides, it should be priced accordingly - including the platinum circlet.  Reduced in cost to match the relevant prices of the other headgear, else given some reason to be worth more.  If mundane gear had additional traits that could be used to differenciate them, then that'd be a good way to do it.

Personally, here's how I lean:

Heavy gear boosts HP or Attack a little on top of defense.
Light gear boosts Agility or Crits a little on top of defense.
Mage gear boosts PP or Luck a little on top of defense.

If the wooden cap boosted agility by, say, 2 or 3 points, it might be worth the extra cash.  If the Platinum Circlet boosted luck by a point or two, it might be worth its cost.  My idea for weapon versatility didn't just apply to weapons - armor was always going to be part of it as well.  The problem with armor being, of course, that it uses lower values, and is a bit trickier to balance.
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« Reply #24 on: March 25, 2015, 11:18:06 PM »

And unleashes were among the first thing I fixed for a reason. If you don't like the concept of classes being with only defense, just think that it costs more because it is found later and/or because more character can use it. Come on, we discussed for about a page on 40 (forty!) coins, shouldn't we move on? I'm pretty sure there are much more important things to talk about.
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« Reply #25 on: March 25, 2015, 11:37:01 PM »

Forty?  It was hundred.  At that early in the game, that's a lot.  What's more... I thought you wanted feedback.  Well... we've given it.  Several of us now have pointed out that if defense is the only factor, then there's no reason for it to cost so much.  Availability between characters is a non-issue, especially when the wooden cap becomes available (you'd easily have better gear for your warriors), and "when it can be gotten" means nothing if it's lower-tier gear at that point.
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« Reply #26 on: March 25, 2015, 11:49:24 PM »

And I said that one hundred was clearly too much and that 240 for the wooden cap would have been fairer, and this is in v1.20. Don't get me wrong I want feedback (the more the merrier) but now we've clearly reached a stalemate here cause we've been stating over and over our point of view without getting anywhere. Hence the "let's move on".

As a side note, I just remembered that i had to check the base chances of stun and the others... I'll probably make a v1.20a for that one within the next hour. Status success rate fix included in v1.20. Stun is now 55% and Sleep 45%.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2015, 12:18:47 AM by Caledor » Logged
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« Reply #27 on: March 28, 2015, 01:15:44 AM »

If it helps, it may be a good idea to have multiple instances of several stat ailments.  Basically, a low, mid, and high inflict rate.  That way, damage+effect can be balanced with effect only by giving effect only spells a higher chance of success.

Because the sting does damage too, you'd give it the lower infliction rate.  But if it had a spell that ONLY stunned someone, you'd have used the higher one.
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« Reply #28 on: March 28, 2015, 01:24:58 AM »

If it helps, it may be a good idea to have multiple instances of several stat ailments.  Basically, a low, mid, and high inflict rate.  That way, damage+effect can be balanced with effect only by giving effect only spells a higher chance of success.

Because the sting does damage too, you'd give it the lower infliction rate.  But if it had a spell that ONLY stunned someone, you'd have used the higher one.
I tried doing this A LOT of times in the past but somehow it never worked, and I had other things that required my attention at that time, so I always gave up soon. Now it's certainly a good time to try again.
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« Reply #29 on: March 28, 2015, 03:51:06 AM »

Yeah - being able to give value to the effect only spells is pretty important to giving the player a reason to use them, and the best way to do that is to give them a decent chance of actually working.  Though, in some cases, like with Delusion, you'd have to overhaul the effect itself... but that's a different discussion entirely~
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