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Author Topic: Editor Questions I think  (Read 11696 times)
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Rolina
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« Reply #15 on: September 22, 2015, 10:11:45 PM »

Yes, there is a reason for that.  That reason being you changed Ivan's elemental stats.  Turns out that changing them causes a huge impact on how it reads classes.  For example, changing element values so that the weaknesses of characters is their opposing element instead of their symbiote just flat out breaks the class system.  Simply changing his element like that probably triggered that. 

Basically, instead of doing something smart and associating classes with equipped djinn, they have this convoluted system that goes off of element level instead, meaning that:

You can't tweak elemental values without screwing up any and all semblance of order in classes
You can't create an item to add effect accuracy without screwing up classes
You can't change a character's element without a ton of trail and error overhauling of the class system

Inefficient, unwieldy, and a colossal pain in the butt, amirite?
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Drake baku
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« Reply #16 on: September 22, 2015, 10:43:59 PM »

so basically, for a beginner like me, what I was planning is pretty much impossible huh?

EDIT:
Unless somehow I can Switch around Ivan and Isaac base data completely, making Ivan the main character in all regards, then I wont conflict like this and makes some stuff better and easier for me as well actually
« Last Edit: September 22, 2015, 10:49:39 PM by Drake baku » Logged
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JamietheFlameUser
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« Reply #17 on: September 23, 2015, 12:21:51 AM »

Yes, there is a reason for that.  That reason being you changed Ivan's elemental stats.  Turns out that changing them causes a huge impact on how it reads classes.  For example, changing element values so that the weaknesses of characters is their opposing element instead of their symbiote just flat out breaks the class system.  Simply changing his element like that probably triggered that. 

Basically, instead of doing something smart and associating classes with equipped djinn, they have this convoluted system that goes off of element level instead, meaning that:

You can't tweak elemental values without screwing up any and all semblance of order in classes
You can't create an item to add effect accuracy without screwing up classes
You can't change a character's element without a ton of trail and error overhauling of the class system

Inefficient, unwieldy, and a colossal pain in the butt, amirite?
Wait, what? I've never seen the class system break because I changed a 3 to a 1 and a 1 to a 3 in the characters' element levels. I also, one time, swapped Felix and Sheba's primary elements (so Sheba is Venus and Felix is Jupiter) along with swapping characters' weaknesses to their opposing element, and I didn't notice the class system getting particularly broken (although I was having serious trouble with a dual Mars/Jupiter class I was trying to get to work properly, but that was for Jenna).
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Rolina
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« Reply #18 on: September 23, 2015, 11:50:40 AM »

It does.  You have to change the order of classes to get it to work. 
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JamietheFlameUser
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« Reply #19 on: September 23, 2015, 04:30:20 PM »

Wait, so you mean the game basically determines classes not using, for example "Venus primary, Mars secondary" but rather "Venus primary, weakness secondary"? That's pretty weird. And really quite stupid. I'll have to test it out.
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Rolina
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« Reply #20 on: September 24, 2015, 02:49:19 AM »

I don't think it's technically that in code, but that's how it turns out, yes.  I think it determines the order it checks things in the class section, since re-ordering classes in less-sensible ways seems to fix it.
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« Reply #21 on: September 24, 2015, 10:00:31 AM »

Quote
You can't tweak elemental values without screwing up any and all semblance of order in classes
There is already an elemental value setup that works for each of the four elements, why would you want to tweak them?

Quote
You can't create an item to add effect accuracy without screwing up classes
Added effects on items have two values, an effect ID and an argument (for example Venus Power, +15). Theoretically I see no problem with creating a new effect ID and including its value in the effect accuracy formula. You'd have to make custom code for an item that affects elemental levels either way.

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You can't change a character's element without a ton of trail and error overhauling of the class system
Copy the elemental values of a character who is of the element you want to change them into.
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JamietheFlameUser
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« Reply #22 on: September 24, 2015, 10:47:16 AM »

Quote
You can't tweak elemental values without screwing up any and all semblance of order in classes
There is already an elemental value setup that works for each of the four elements, why would you want to tweak them?
Because it makes no sense for a character's symbiotic element to be their elemental weakness?

Quote
Quote
You can't change a character's element without a ton of trail and error overhauling of the class system
Copy the elemental values of a character who is of the element you want to change them into.
And Rolina's saying that doesn't work and causes class glitches for whatever strange reason.
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« Reply #23 on: September 24, 2015, 12:13:55 PM »

Quote
You can't tweak elemental values without screwing up any and all semblance of order in classes
There is already an elemental value setup that works for each of the four elements, why would you want to tweak them?
Because it makes no sense for a character's symbiotic element to be their elemental weakness?
It could be argued that it makes sense, but that's a whole different topic. Either way, elemental weakness for player characters is not relevant to anything. I mean, a character with 200 in all resistances would be considered by the game to be weak against every element.

Quote
Quote
Quote
You can't change a character's element without a ton of trail and error overhauling of the class system
Copy the elemental values of a character who is of the element you want to change them into.
And Rolina's saying that doesn't work and causes class glitches for whatever strange reason.
I don't claim to know the class sorting code in depth, but I can't imagine there's anything that associates any particular character with an element. AFAIK those elemental values are all the class sorting has to identify a base element, and what little testing I've done supports this notion. For example, if you give Ivan or Sheba the elemental value set for Venus, their classes will work exactly like Isaac's and Felix's classes normally would.
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JamietheFlameUser
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« Reply #24 on: September 24, 2015, 05:12:42 PM »

Quote from: Misery
I don't claim to know the class sorting code in depth, but I can't imagine there's anything that associates any particular character with an element. AFAIK those elemental values are all the class sorting has to identify a base element, and what little testing I've done supports this notion. For example, if you give Ivan or Sheba the elemental value set for Venus, their classes will work exactly like Isaac's and Felix's classes normally would.
Yeah, but what Rolina's saying is that doing that causes weird behaviour when giving them Djinn of their original element due to the order in which the game checks for classes. I don't see how it could, but there you go.
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Fox
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« Reply #25 on: September 24, 2015, 05:46:02 PM »

I'm not sure if I'm convinced about this "order" thing after changing elemental levels... Maybe I'll have to think about it more...(?) The only thing I remember being PC-specific outside of Elemental Levels were for Jenna and Piers using their base class. (Or Party 1/Party 2 if using Atrius's patch.) I do agree that you need classes to be ordered from least to greatest, though. And that changing elemental levels could lead to some re-balancing needs for classes.

Quote
EDIT: ok so new question aimed @Rol
for some reason my class systems are off, for example, I changed Ivan to a venus and for some reason when I give it Jupiter djinne's it has the names wrong, the stats and abilities work fine without issue, gaining psynergies in the right order and all
but it starts with the name I had typed for tis highest stage, well nor even that actually, but I guess the highest stage is Lost age exclusive, as for with Isaac who is now Jupiter by nature, giving him just 1 earth djinne will make him start in the 3 stage name and from there same problem.
is there a reason for this?
if needed I can list all stuff I did in the classes?
^Maybe a little vague? - I'm not sure if they knew how Class Type worked or not?
If Ivan is Jupiter (Jupiter 5 elemental level), and you give it Jupiter djinn, Ivan stays Jupiter. (Class type stays the same.)
If Ivan is Venus (Venus 5 elemental level), and you give it Jupiter djinn, Ivan is mixed. Class type is different... Depending on primary/secondary element (Solar Jupiter/Lunar Venus; I say Solar for when primary element is Venus or Mars, and Lunar when primary element is Jupiter or Mercury.)

P.S. = I should probably note that I /might/ have skimmed over a portion of this topic...


---
Trivia moment? -- I can say that how the secondary element is retrieved, is that it checks for the highest elemental level while skipping the primary element one. (Yeah, primary and secondary are in separate loops.) , and then both those values are used to get Class Type value from Class Type Chart.... and then matching those with every class (Starting from the end of the list and going backwards, if I recall correctly.)... those that match do further checks with elemental level requirements... if those pass, that's your class. -- (And that's ignoring Jenna/Piers base class change/item classes.... )
« Last Edit: September 24, 2015, 06:42:24 PM by Fox » Logged

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Drake baku
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« Reply #26 on: September 25, 2015, 11:26:31 AM »

completely lost XD

should I otherwise just post all the stuff I did, well not all all, but all relevant to this issue, such as:
-Who is it for and kind of the role (like Isaac - Jupiter)
-stage name number (like: single-Mars 1, single-mars 2)
-type value its on (and how I came to it if I remember)
-levels needed values

and then the issue I am having with that one in the game
though I have to admit I have yet to test the triple and the 2 attempts for qautro element ones, but I am guessing those would have issues as well if its already has issues with the dual ones.

with that I should note: I have done some attempts at splitting the symbiotic dual ones and played with the triple element ones a little like that as well
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Rolina
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« Reply #27 on: September 26, 2015, 01:32:55 PM »

Technically, it's still possible.  However, the forces you to scramble the order classes are put in.  I don't remember the specifics - when I was working on that, it was at least a year ago, and I don't the guy who figured it out is still around.  All and all, we figured it's just plain easier to keep it so that classes stayed in the order they're in now rather than trying to figure it out.
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Drake baku
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« Reply #28 on: September 26, 2015, 09:33:46 PM »

feel like you guys are talking about this so deep that I get overthrown
maybe I should just redo it all and use Rol's blank sheets for it (is by chance the blank ones put down without symbiotic types for those that dont want to have a symbiotic class like brute)
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« Reply #29 on: November 05, 2015, 03:21:19 AM »

I think I need help exporting sprites, and I don't think that me not knowing what version of the editor I'm using helps.

I did make a screenshot of my editor though.

Hope it helps.

I'm also wondering if it's possible to change the max amount of party members, but that's something I will deal with later...


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