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Author Topic: Golden Sun 1 Pre release maps?  (Read 3993 times)
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zman9000
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« on: October 14, 2015, 07:47:48 PM »

You may know that My minecraft golden sun rebuild project thingy requires a lot of staring at the editor map viewer for long, untold hours.

What you might not know is i have a GS 1&2 Guide that I reference if i forget how the rooms all connect. This guide has every map in both games (exception being the whole of crossbone isle).

I bring this up because I was looking through both the editor and my guide, sitting down getting ready to start my next project when I noticed something...
This guide's images don't exactly match up with the map in game. (only the GS1 maps that is)

The area i'm looking at is Lamakin Desert. For reference the specific map in the editor is number 89. In the editor this map in the top right corner has a large area blocked out by a sand texture. You never see this area because its too far off screen, and in the editor this area is blank, but this image i'm looking at in this guide has the area shown!

Now at first I thought this might be an editor error, however i then noticed many areas out side the blank area that are different on the walls. these are areas you can see in game, but they aren't the same in this guide's image.

Finally The GS2 part of this guide, while having all maps listed, there is a slight difference. in most of them, cut off parts of felix's sprite can be seen in several parts of each map image, meaning they got those maps by taking a lot of screen shots and stitching them together. this is backed up by the blocky outline of the maps while the GS1 maps are neat and even only show the exact map image, not the black background you get from actually viewing the map in game or through the editor.

What i'm getting at is, There are full pre-release images for every map in GS1 (not including crossbone isle) out there somewhere. But I haven't seen these images anywhere but in this guide.

I never brought it up before because while the full maps look good, i just figured there were other ways to get the maps, like through the editor and such. but recently learning that some maps in the editor are corrupt and now that there are maps out there that aren't even in the final game, i figured I should share this as I'm sure a few of you are interested in maps...

Here is all related info i have on the guide.
"Prima's Official Strategy Guide: covers 2 Games!: Golden sun: Golden sun the lost age"
Closest thing to a code of some kind to find the guide is this stuff.
"ISBN: 0-7615-4180-2"
"Library of Congress Catalog Card Number: 2003100185"

then there's another number code at the bottom.
"03 04 05 GG 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2"

Let me know what you think. if this still isn't enough information the book even has contact information for the people who made it, though more then 10 years later, not sure those people would even be a help...
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Lord Wolfram
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« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2015, 02:03:57 PM »

It would be truly amazing if someone would find a Golden sun Broken seal Pre released Rom or patch at least.
then we would get more and better info about the games engine and maybe story
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« Reply #2 on: October 17, 2015, 05:27:07 AM »

I look this product up real fast... This is the one, I'm guessing?

http://www.amazon.com/Golden-Sun-Primas-Official-Strategy/dp/0761541802/ref=pd_sim_14_1?ie=UTF8&refRID=0DN1H205RJE5X5XSRFBH&dpID=61YRKDX02NL&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL160_SR125%2C160_

9.05
+ $3.99 shipping

While that is a nice price, I think I found a pdf... (Basically wanted to do a quick scan to see what it looks like... Otherwise... don't need it.) However, matching it with the game's data could be interested in a way, I guess... But I have doubts that this will actually be useful, unfortunately? :(


@Lord Wolfram: That would seem lovely! More lovely than the prima guides, in fact... But also to note that we still have plenty to research (on code) in the retail versions of both games.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2015, 06:30:27 AM by Fox » Logged

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Lord Wolfram
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« Reply #3 on: October 17, 2015, 06:51:45 AM »

@Lord Wolfram: That would seem lovely! More lovely than the prima guides, in fact... But also to note that we still have plenty to research (on code) in the retail versions of both games.
oh here's the thing.
someone could decompose the Assembly code from GS1 & GS2.
Make a threads with this code and we could look for some interesting things.
Like we could even write a code that would allow us to rip perfectly so many files from GS games.
Like notes about events.
Text notes.
Spell animation sprites.
also we would get our own sprite composer algorithm.
In that case we can translate it to C++ or C# and reduce size of the engine.
but.... there are 2 problems.
1. Can we even upload the code of whole GS game? That is isn't that forbidden?
2. Who will pick up the task and will do it?

@2 I can give it a hand but I am still unsure cuz of the safety.
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« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2015, 07:10:20 AM »

Code can already be looked up via VBA's Disassemble... so it's not like it can't be easily viewed... at least in that way. (Arm/Thumb assembly.)
That would be one really huge thread if one was made to display all code. (Not just what the functions are used for.) - My documentation is already being used to label the code, but without copy/pasting the code itself.
The biggest problem? Nothing is labeled. All variable/function names are usually stripped away when you compile a game.... so even if it was converted to C++/C# using untitled names like var1, var2, func1, func2, etc... you'd still have to figure out what is what.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2015, 07:18:25 AM by Fox » Logged

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Lord Wolfram
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« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2015, 07:30:25 AM »

Hmm... meaning that they were clever enough to make it all happen. However.
In the code there should be something that explains what var1 var2 means or else we would see in game not text "Move"
But "var11"
However that already sounds like a good work for the community.
Step by step we translate the assembly script.
Spoiler for Hidden:
Also that will be good exercise for learning Assembly language for me XD.
Well even how huge the tread is it would be good to have one.
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zman9000
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« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2015, 07:42:45 AM »

Quote

yep thats the one. while the only other guides for games i've ever had is for darkdawn and thinking about it not i think i also got a skyrim one??? maybe?
but This one is the nicest guide i've seen. not only are all maps listed, they are coded by door and chests are numbered so you know whats in each. it also lists all items, all classes, summons, djinn location and stats, and boss health (though the boss stats listed i've felt aren't super accurate... like the final boss in GS 1 health is listed as unknown, and in gs2 the final boss and all of the bonus bosses are listed as unknown.

Reading over what i just wrote i basically described any guide. but this one isn't cluttered with stuff, its easy to find. Looking at my dark dawn guide book... ugg... its such a mess with information i don't even want to look at it... and the skyrim one is... even worse...

On the subject of maps though. i'll have to take a look through it at some point, map by map comparing everything to the game. i need to see if i can find other areas that have changes. would be interesting if this guide had evidence to my theory that some things in the game were last minute additions which is why they are odd... (like the gem chamber on sol sanctum, though i know that's in the book...)
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« Reply #7 on: October 17, 2015, 05:05:56 PM »

Quote from: Lord Wolfram
In that case we can translate it to C++ or C# and reduce size of the engine.
Unlikely, the compiled code is pretty efficient and most of it is in 16-bit thumb format.  Converting, modifying the code to work on a computer instead of GBA hardware (The code is VERY hardware specific), then recompiling in 32-bit code for an x86 architecture processor on the computer would increase the size of it.  Granted it would run faster because you're running it on a processor that operates in the GHz range instead of at 16MHz.

In the code there should be something that explains what var1 var2 means or else we would see in game not text "Move"
No, ALL of the variables in the assembled code are only identified as R0, R1, R2, ... R15.  Text does not exist on the assembly code level, you need whole algorithms written in assembly just to handle text at all.


If you're serious about learning assembly language for GBA, then GBATEK is the ultimate resource for all things about the GBA's inner workings.  Most code in GBA games is assembled into the THUMB instruction format.
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Lord Wolfram
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« Reply #8 on: October 17, 2015, 06:15:06 PM »

No, ALL of the variables in the assembled code are only identified as R0, R1, R2, ... R15.  Text does not exist on the assembly code level, you need whole algorithms written in assembly just to handle text at all.
Well but if we find this algorithm that handles text. Then it's a place to start. There must be a line which tells the program to show the name of animation. otherwise what kind of magic is used here?
Well I am pretty damn sure that you have found the composer algorithm and reversed it in the editor. Or the creators didn't care about the sprites being taken out >.>
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« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2015, 07:35:42 PM »

Quote
Most code in GBA games is assembled into the THUMB instruction format.
While this seems to be true most of the time... There may be some games that use mostly ARM instead. For example, I think The Lost Vikings was one... of which I remember from a long time ago. (The GBA version, since I know it is also on the SNES.) It's possible that they may have used an entirely different compiler, though?

Quote
Well but if we find this algorithm that handles text.
*Points at documentation.... (Tells where most of the stuff we have documented is at.) (we being Salanewt and I.)

Quote
Or the creators didn't care about the sprites being taken out >.>
Umm... Pretty sure either way those sprites would be taken out... It's no simple matter to keep people from accessing your sprites in the long-term at all....  Note the history of new gen consoles using encryption and hackers finding a way to get by them. (The GBA doesn't even use encryption/so all GBA games are hackable.)
« Last Edit: October 17, 2015, 07:46:13 PM by Fox » Logged

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Lord Wolfram
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« Reply #10 on: October 18, 2015, 08:41:55 AM »

Umm... Pretty sure either way those sprites would be taken out... It's no simple matter to keep people from accessing your sprites in the long-term at all....  Note the history of new gen consoles using encryption and hackers finding a way to get by them. (The GBA doesn't even use encryption/so all GBA games are hackable.)
Figures.
(we being Salanewt and I.)
Wrong. But at the same time true. It depends on how much inspiration I'll get to do this.
Well like I still have to code Save screen for my FE game so... I am busy as hell.
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Fox
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« Reply #11 on: October 18, 2015, 05:21:54 PM »

Quote
Wrong. But at the same time true. It depends on how much inspiration I'll get to do this.
Well like I still have to code Save screen for my FE game so... I am busy as hell.
Well, if I add you before you even edit the doc, then that would be wrong.. so better to wait until then, right?
(Atrius fits the most for a third credit at the moment... even though he has not directly edited the doc yet (as far as I know), I remember copying sprite and enemy info of which I found lying around on the site at some point.... The editor source may have been a good source for finding where many tables are/how they're formatted.., but I still had to go and write down the tables... I don't think it amounted to as much as the rest of the doc, though.)


*Quickly notices we're going off-topic, and that the topic at hand isn't exactly one that we'd have much to say on,.... unfortunately.  Even though it is something we'd have a lot of interest in.*
« Last Edit: October 18, 2015, 05:35:16 PM by Fox » Logged

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« Reply #12 on: October 30, 2015, 04:31:56 AM »

I got a copy of the guide and scanned the Lamakan Desert map for anyone that wanted to see it.

Spoiler for Guidebook Version:
Spoiler for Editor Version:

One possibility is that the game creators realized that area would be impossible to see under normal circumstances, and decided to blank it out to decrease the compressed size of the map.
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zman9000
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« Reply #13 on: October 30, 2015, 10:25:25 AM »

Quote
One possibility is that the game creators realized that area would be impossible to see under normal circumstances, and decided to blank it out to decrease the compressed size of the map.
Yes but that doesn't explain the differences out side that blanked out area... though it is mainly stuff near that area, there are a few differences that stand out, some of which are even stuff you can see if you were to go through playing, though it is technically just background stuff... I find it interesting that the guide has this, when for other areas its clearly just stitched together screen shots...

And the fact i haven't seen most of the maps images anywhere but in this guide. I Thought might hint there may be game art and assets that we haven't found from earlier in development, which would be interesting to have considering we now have a few people looking into map editing.
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Fox
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« Reply #14 on: October 30, 2015, 01:57:49 PM »

If it turns out... that there is an early version of the ROM where the... tilesets/8x8 tiles listing... weren't stripped away (reorganized in order of usage).... as in, no compression optimizations going on... then that would be amazing... and would probably help with the editor as well, most likely. (Imagine data transferring from the early version to the retail version.... for anything that was ripped out... aka: unused tiles.)

I'd say it's best to assume such a version would still take the same compression optimizations, only without the developers doing the minor manual work for tilemaps.... (But still, it's nice to think about, in theory.)

*I shall check the other versions of GS2 (Maybe Japan version?) including Kiosk demos for that map difference a bit later?* - Which reminds me, I should probably see what's different in Kiosk Demo data anyway.... Assuming I can find one online? - Can't seem to find one at the moment...

I can pretty much say that map editing in the retail version would probably be pretty sloppy otherwise, and that's why I'm hoping to include a workspace to put tiles together, maybe. (Can't say when I'd get to that part, though. Or even if I'm sure about doing it.)
« Last Edit: October 30, 2015, 02:47:16 PM by Fox » Logged

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Remember kids! Before you go on that interview, remember to wash your hands in teawater! *Coughs on hand* (Excuse me, I just coughed up a little teawater, so they're still clean!) You wouldn't want that hiring manager to be unimpressed.

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Today at 02:46:36 PM
KyleRunner: Atrius!!
Yesterday at 11:29:46 PM
Atrius: @Fox, I tried, but for some reason Mario Golf won't boot, and Mario Tennis crashes when you patch out the text compression, and I'm not sure why...  The normal text loading functions in them are basically the same as the ones in the Golden Sun games.
April 16, 2018, 07:44:36 AM
Drake baku: So it took about halve a hour of letting my lap stay off for it to suddenly work again
April 16, 2018, 07:31:28 AM
Drake baku: All of a sudden fox his editor gets errors. When trying to start it, thing worked fine yesterday...
April 14, 2018, 01:04:37 PM
Fox: @Mario Golf/text editing = Nope... And it may be awhile yet. I think I looked into it before... (at least for GS1)... but usually is the case when I come across a particular problem, that it can delay a solution for an extremely long time.
April 12, 2018, 04:27:14 PM
KyleRunner: Gee... never used discord...
April 12, 2018, 06:03:23 AM
Drake baku: I take it back, found it
April 12, 2018, 06:02:01 AM
Drake baku: But there is no discord link to be found
April 12, 2018, 06:01:44 AM
Drake baku: Everyone is on discord
April 11, 2018, 09:44:06 PM
KyleRunner: Fox, what about that tool for editing text in Mario Golf? Didi you finish it? If not, can you make a version of gstoolkit compatible with it?
April 11, 2018, 07:41:25 AM
Drake baku: Mauw
March 30, 2018, 07:26:11 PM
Salanewt: Hi!
March 29, 2018, 07:37:45 PM
ThanatosTheDark: YYEEEOOOOOO
March 12, 2018, 02:21:06 AM
Fox: say*
March 12, 2018, 02:20:53 AM
Fox: I saw we need an event this April Fools/Easter... because two holidays are in one, why would we not want to miss having something special? (Unfortunately, there's no one here to make an event be successful.)
March 12, 2018, 02:18:17 AM
Fox: And since that's the case...  I have thought of another fun experiment idea. - What if we had an auction on who should run this site, and waited for 10 people to bid and also for a bare minimum of 24 hours. Who would bid the highest, and how much would that bid be? - The idea is more for lulz (Maybe for April Fools?), and a theory to get an idea of how much the site might be worth as well.
March 11, 2018, 03:02:31 AM
Fox: Creepy, isn't it?
March 10, 2018, 02:19:04 AM
Fox: It's frog legs now.. It's something that's dead, but somehow still manages to wiggle.
March 09, 2018, 04:12:17 AM
JamietheFlameUser: I think this place is still dead.
March 02, 2018, 09:43:18 AM
Pkmn-Master: Lol I haven't been here in like 6 years. How is everyone?

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