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Golden Sun 1 Pre release maps?

Started by zman9000, 14, October, 2015, 03:47:48 PM

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zman9000

You may know that My minecraft golden sun rebuild project thingy requires a lot of staring at the editor map viewer for long, untold hours.

What you might not know is i have a GS 1&2 Guide that I reference if i forget how the rooms all connect. This guide has every map in both games (exception being the whole of crossbone isle).

I bring this up because I was looking through both the editor and my guide, sitting down getting ready to start my next project when I noticed something...
This guide's images don't exactly match up with the map in game. (only the GS1 maps that is)

The area i'm looking at is Lamakin Desert. For reference the specific map in the editor is number 89. In the editor this map in the top right corner has a large area blocked out by a sand texture. You never see this area because its too far off screen, and in the editor this area is blank, but this image i'm looking at in this guide has the area shown!

Now at first I thought this might be an editor error, however i then noticed many areas out side the blank area that are different on the walls. these are areas you can see in game, but they aren't the same in this guide's image.

Finally The GS2 part of this guide, while having all maps listed, there is a slight difference. in most of them, cut off parts of felix's sprite can be seen in several parts of each map image, meaning they got those maps by taking a lot of screen shots and stitching them together. this is backed up by the blocky outline of the maps while the GS1 maps are neat and even only show the exact map image, not the black background you get from actually viewing the map in game or through the editor.

What i'm getting at is, There are full pre-release images for every map in GS1 (not including crossbone isle) out there somewhere. But I haven't seen these images anywhere but in this guide.

I never brought it up before because while the full maps look good, i just figured there were other ways to get the maps, like through the editor and such. but recently learning that some maps in the editor are corrupt and now that there are maps out there that aren't even in the final game, i figured I should share this as I'm sure a few of you are interested in maps...

Here is all related info i have on the guide.
"Prima's Official Strategy Guide: covers 2 Games!: Golden sun: Golden sun the lost age"
Closest thing to a code of some kind to find the guide is this stuff.
"ISBN: 0-7615-4180-2"
"Library of Congress Catalog Card Number: 2003100185"

then there's another number code at the bottom.
"03 04 05 GG 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2"

Let me know what you think. if this still isn't enough information the book even has contact information for the people who made it, though more then 10 years later, not sure those people would even be a help...
Check my youtube channel out for lots of cool gaming related videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/xXzman9000Xx

Lord Wolfram

It would be truly amazing if someone would find a Golden sun Broken seal Pre released Rom or patch at least.
then we would get more and better info about the games engine and maybe story

Daddy Poi's Oily Gorillas

#2
I look this product up real fast... This is the one, I'm guessing?

http://www.amazon.com/Golden-Sun-Primas-Official-Strategy/dp/0761541802/ref=pd_sim_14_1?ie=UTF8&refRID=0DN1H205RJE5X5XSRFBH&dpID=61YRKDX02NL&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL160_SR125%2C160_

9.05
+ $3.99 shipping

While that is a nice price, I think I found a pdf... (Basically wanted to do a quick scan to see what it looks like... Otherwise... don't need it.) However, matching it with the game's data could be interested in a way, I guess... But I have doubts that this will actually be useful, unfortunately? :(


@Lord Wolfram: That would seem lovely! More lovely than the prima guides, in fact... But also to note that we still have plenty to research (on code) in the retail versions of both games.
Golden Sun Docs: Broken Seal - The Lost Age - Dark Dawn | Mario Sports Docs: Mario Golf & Mario Tennis | Misc. Docs
Refer to Yoshi's Lighthouse for any M&L hacking needs...

Sometimes I like to compare apples to oranges. (Figuratively) ... They are both fruits, but which one would you eat more? (If taken literally, I'd probably choose apples.)
Maybe it is over-analyzing, but it doesn't mean the information is useless.


The only GS Discord servers with significance are:
Golden Sun Hacking Community
GS Speedrunning
/r/Golden Sun
GS United Nations
Temple of Kraden

Can you believe how small the Golden Sun Community is?

2+2=5 Don't believe me? Those are rounded decimal numbers. Take that, flat earth theorists! :)

Lord Wolfram

Quote from: Fox on 17, October, 2015, 01:27:07 AM
@Lord Wolfram: That would seem lovely! More lovely than the prima guides, in fact... But also to note that we still have plenty to research (on code) in the retail versions of both games.
oh here's the thing.
someone could decompose the Assembly code from GS1 & GS2.
Make a threads with this code and we could look for some interesting things.
Like we could even write a code that would allow us to rip perfectly so many files from GS games.
Like notes about events.
Text notes.
Spell animation sprites.
also we would get our own sprite composer algorithm.
In that case we can translate it to C++ or C# and reduce size of the engine.
but.... there are 2 problems.
1. Can we even upload the code of whole GS game? That is isn't that forbidden?
2. Who will pick up the task and will do it?

@2 I can give it a hand but I am still unsure cuz of the safety.

Daddy Poi's Oily Gorillas

#4
Code can already be looked up via VBA's Disassemble... so it's not like it can't be easily viewed... at least in that way. (Arm/Thumb assembly.)
That would be one really huge thread if one was made to display all code. (Not just what the functions are used for.) - My documentation is already being used to label the code, but without copy/pasting the code itself.
The biggest problem? Nothing is labeled. All variable/function names are usually stripped away when you compile a game.... so even if it was converted to C++/C# using untitled names like var1, var2, func1, func2, etc... you'd still have to figure out what is what.
Golden Sun Docs: Broken Seal - The Lost Age - Dark Dawn | Mario Sports Docs: Mario Golf & Mario Tennis | Misc. Docs
Refer to Yoshi's Lighthouse for any M&L hacking needs...

Sometimes I like to compare apples to oranges. (Figuratively) ... They are both fruits, but which one would you eat more? (If taken literally, I'd probably choose apples.)
Maybe it is over-analyzing, but it doesn't mean the information is useless.


The only GS Discord servers with significance are:
Golden Sun Hacking Community
GS Speedrunning
/r/Golden Sun
GS United Nations
Temple of Kraden

Can you believe how small the Golden Sun Community is?

2+2=5 Don't believe me? Those are rounded decimal numbers. Take that, flat earth theorists! :)

Lord Wolfram

Hmm... meaning that they were clever enough to make it all happen. However.
In the code there should be something that explains what var1 var2 means or else we would see in game not text "Move"
But "var11"
However that already sounds like a good work for the community.
Step by step we translate the assembly script.
[spoiler]Also that will be good exercise for learning Assembly language for me XD.[/spoiler]
Well even how huge the tread is it would be good to have one.

zman9000

QuoteI look this product up real fast... This is the one, I'm guessing?

http://www.amazon.com/Golden-Sun-Primas-Official-Strategy/dp/0761541802/ref=pd_sim_14_1?ie=UTF8&refRID=0DN1H205RJE5X5XSRFBH&dpID=61YRKDX02NL&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL160_SR125%2C160_

9.05
+ $3.99 shipping

yep thats the one. while the only other guides for games i've ever had is for darkdawn and thinking about it not i think i also got a skyrim one??? maybe?
but This one is the nicest guide i've seen. not only are all maps listed, they are coded by door and chests are numbered so you know whats in each. it also lists all items, all classes, summons, djinn location and stats, and boss health (though the boss stats listed i've felt aren't super accurate... like the final boss in GS 1 health is listed as unknown, and in gs2 the final boss and all of the bonus bosses are listed as unknown.

Reading over what i just wrote i basically described any guide. but this one isn't cluttered with stuff, its easy to find. Looking at my dark dawn guide book... ugg... its such a mess with information i don't even want to look at it... and the skyrim one is... even worse...

On the subject of maps though. i'll have to take a look through it at some point, map by map comparing everything to the game. i need to see if i can find other areas that have changes. would be interesting if this guide had evidence to my theory that some things in the game were last minute additions which is why they are odd... (like the gem chamber on sol sanctum, though i know that's in the book...)
Check my youtube channel out for lots of cool gaming related videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/xXzman9000Xx

Atrius (He/Him)

Quote from: Lord WolframIn that case we can translate it to C++ or C# and reduce size of the engine.
Unlikely, the compiled code is pretty efficient and most of it is in 16-bit thumb format.  Converting, modifying the code to work on a computer instead of GBA hardware (The code is VERY hardware specific), then recompiling in 32-bit code for an x86 architecture processor on the computer would increase the size of it.  Granted it would run faster because you're running it on a processor that operates in the GHz range instead of at 16MHz.

Quote from: Lord Wolfram on 17, October, 2015, 03:30:25 AM
In the code there should be something that explains what var1 var2 means or else we would see in game not text "Move"
No, ALL of the variables in the assembled code are only identified as R0, R1, R2, ... R15.  Text does not exist on the assembly code level, you need whole algorithms written in assembly just to handle text at all.


If you're serious about learning assembly language for GBA, then GBATEK is the ultimate resource for all things about the GBA's inner workings.  Most code in GBA games is assembled into the THUMB instruction format.
[sprite=220,4,0]I'm shaking my head in general disapproval of everything[/sprite]

Lord Wolfram

Quote from: Atrius on 17, October, 2015, 01:05:56 PM
No, ALL of the variables in the assembled code are only identified as R0, R1, R2, ... R15.  Text does not exist on the assembly code level, you need whole algorithms written in assembly just to handle text at all.
Well but if we find this algorithm that handles text. Then it's a place to start. There must be a line which tells the program to show the name of animation. otherwise what kind of magic is used here?
Well I am pretty damn sure that you have found the composer algorithm and reversed it in the editor. Or the creators didn't care about the sprites being taken out >.>

Daddy Poi's Oily Gorillas

#9
QuoteMost code in GBA games is assembled into the THUMB instruction format.
While this seems to be true most of the time... There may be some games that use mostly ARM instead. For example, I think The Lost Vikings was one... of which I remember from a long time ago. (The GBA version, since I know it is also on the SNES.) It's possible that they may have used an entirely different compiler, though?

QuoteWell but if we find this algorithm that handles text.
*Points at documentation.... (Tells where most of the stuff we have documented is at.) (we being Salanewt and I.)

QuoteOr the creators didn't care about the sprites being taken out >.>
Umm... Pretty sure either way those sprites would be taken out... It's no simple matter to keep people from accessing your sprites in the long-term at all....  Note the history of new gen consoles using encryption and hackers finding a way to get by them. (The GBA doesn't even use encryption/so all GBA games are hackable.)
Golden Sun Docs: Broken Seal - The Lost Age - Dark Dawn | Mario Sports Docs: Mario Golf & Mario Tennis | Misc. Docs
Refer to Yoshi's Lighthouse for any M&L hacking needs...

Sometimes I like to compare apples to oranges. (Figuratively) ... They are both fruits, but which one would you eat more? (If taken literally, I'd probably choose apples.)
Maybe it is over-analyzing, but it doesn't mean the information is useless.


The only GS Discord servers with significance are:
Golden Sun Hacking Community
GS Speedrunning
/r/Golden Sun
GS United Nations
Temple of Kraden

Can you believe how small the Golden Sun Community is?

2+2=5 Don't believe me? Those are rounded decimal numbers. Take that, flat earth theorists! :)

Lord Wolfram

Quote from: Fox on 17, October, 2015, 03:35:42 PM
Umm... Pretty sure either way those sprites would be taken out... It's no simple matter to keep people from accessing your sprites in the long-term at all....  Note the history of new gen consoles using encryption and hackers finding a way to get by them. (The GBA doesn't even use encryption/so all GBA games are hackable.)
Figures.
Quote from: Fox on 17, October, 2015, 03:35:42 PM
(we being Salanewt and I.)
Wrong. But at the same time true. It depends on how much inspiration I'll get to do this.
Well like I still have to code Save screen for my FE game so... I am busy as hell.

Daddy Poi's Oily Gorillas

#11
QuoteWrong. But at the same time true. It depends on how much inspiration I'll get to do this.
Well like I still have to code Save screen for my FE game so... I am busy as hell.
Well, if I add you before you even edit the doc, then that would be wrong.. so better to wait until then, right?
(Atrius fits the most for a third credit at the moment... even though he has not directly edited the doc yet (as far as I know), I remember copying sprite and enemy info of which I found lying around on the site at some point.... The editor source may have been a good source for finding where many tables are/how they're formatted.., but I still had to go and write down the tables... I don't think it amounted to as much as the rest of the doc, though.)


*Quickly notices we're going off-topic, and that the topic at hand isn't exactly one that we'd have much to say on,.... unfortunately.  Even though it is something we'd have a lot of interest in.*
Golden Sun Docs: Broken Seal - The Lost Age - Dark Dawn | Mario Sports Docs: Mario Golf & Mario Tennis | Misc. Docs
Refer to Yoshi's Lighthouse for any M&L hacking needs...

Sometimes I like to compare apples to oranges. (Figuratively) ... They are both fruits, but which one would you eat more? (If taken literally, I'd probably choose apples.)
Maybe it is over-analyzing, but it doesn't mean the information is useless.


The only GS Discord servers with significance are:
Golden Sun Hacking Community
GS Speedrunning
/r/Golden Sun
GS United Nations
Temple of Kraden

Can you believe how small the Golden Sun Community is?

2+2=5 Don't believe me? Those are rounded decimal numbers. Take that, flat earth theorists! :)

Atrius (He/Him)

I got a copy of the guide and scanned the Lamakan Desert map for anyone that wanted to see it.

[spoiler=Guidebook Version][/spoiler]
[spoiler=Editor Version][/spoiler]

One possibility is that the game creators realized that area would be impossible to see under normal circumstances, and decided to blank it out to decrease the compressed size of the map.
[sprite=220,4,0]I'm shaking my head in general disapproval of everything[/sprite]

zman9000

QuoteOne possibility is that the game creators realized that area would be impossible to see under normal circumstances, and decided to blank it out to decrease the compressed size of the map.
Yes but that doesn't explain the differences out side that blanked out area... though it is mainly stuff near that area, there are a few differences that stand out, some of which are even stuff you can see if you were to go through playing, though it is technically just background stuff... I find it interesting that the guide has this, when for other areas its clearly just stitched together screen shots...

And the fact i haven't seen most of the maps images anywhere but in this guide. I Thought might hint there may be game art and assets that we haven't found from earlier in development, which would be interesting to have considering we now have a few people looking into map editing.
Check my youtube channel out for lots of cool gaming related videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/xXzman9000Xx

Daddy Poi's Oily Gorillas

#14
If it turns out... that there is an early version of the ROM where the... tilesets/8x8 tiles listing... weren't stripped away (reorganized in order of usage).... as in, no compression optimizations going on... then that would be amazing... and would probably help with the editor as well, most likely. (Imagine data transferring from the early version to the retail version.... for anything that was ripped out... aka: unused tiles.)

I'd say it's best to assume such a version would still take the same compression optimizations, only without the developers doing the minor manual work for tilemaps.... (But still, it's nice to think about, in theory.)

*I shall check the other versions of GS2 (Maybe Japan version?) including Kiosk demos for that map difference a bit later?* - Which reminds me, I should probably see what's different in Kiosk Demo data anyway.... Assuming I can find one online? - Can't seem to find one at the moment...

I can pretty much say that map editing in the retail version would probably be pretty sloppy otherwise, and that's why I'm hoping to include a workspace to put tiles together, maybe. (Can't say when I'd get to that part, though. Or even if I'm sure about doing it.)
Golden Sun Docs: Broken Seal - The Lost Age - Dark Dawn | Mario Sports Docs: Mario Golf & Mario Tennis | Misc. Docs
Refer to Yoshi's Lighthouse for any M&L hacking needs...

Sometimes I like to compare apples to oranges. (Figuratively) ... They are both fruits, but which one would you eat more? (If taken literally, I'd probably choose apples.)
Maybe it is over-analyzing, but it doesn't mean the information is useless.


The only GS Discord servers with significance are:
Golden Sun Hacking Community
GS Speedrunning
/r/Golden Sun
GS United Nations
Temple of Kraden

Can you believe how small the Golden Sun Community is?

2+2=5 Don't believe me? Those are rounded decimal numbers. Take that, flat earth theorists! :)