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Author Topic: What happen's to the elemental stars: and are the lighthouses pointless?  (Read 5737 times)
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Luna_blade
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« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2016, 06:44:08 AM »

Good point about Jupiter not needing a Jupiter adept...
Also? Was each lighthouse needing its respective adept ever stated as fact? (Either b/c NPCs really did try to enter Jupiter already... or otherwise.) My guess is that it's possible that they /thought/ Jupiter needed its respective adept do to their adventures in Mercury and Venus Lighthouses.
Huh. I never thought of that.
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« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2016, 12:55:21 PM »

Huh, good question... how *did* agatio, karst, and alex manage to get into JLH?
Maybe the climbed it as though it were a cliff face?
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« Reply #17 on: January 14, 2016, 05:50:20 PM »

Alex can warp and fly though, so that might be it as well.

As for lighthouses, I imagine it could be one of three things because we never actually see the process of the star going anywhere; it cuts to the overworld when the lighting happens.

3 things:
- Chambers at the top;
- Alignment mechanisms that take it to the bottom (the core of the world?);
- The developers didn't think this through.

So if it's either of the first two, the adepts have to prove themselves by making it to the top. I personally think it's the latter though, considering most other plot points in the series.
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« Reply #18 on: January 14, 2016, 06:59:35 PM »

@Warping: While that is a valid point... Seeing as Alex had to climb Mount Aleph at the end of GS2 instead of teleport/fly to the top in strategic ways... it shows that he did have his limits... - Maybe it's possible he had full PP at the start of his climb, and near the end.. it ran low enough to keep some for emergency supply. (Either that, or ran out altogether.)

Now I'm wondering how tall these places are... Lighthouse vs. Mount Aleph.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2016, 07:16:32 PM by Fox » Logged

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« Reply #19 on: January 14, 2016, 08:22:04 PM »

So if it's either of the first two, the adepts have to prove themselves by making it to the top. I personally think it's the latter though, considering most other plot points in the series.
Good mention.


This statue also says something about proving IIRC.
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« Reply #20 on: January 14, 2016, 08:48:42 PM »

Hard to say, but just for fun I'll say that the world is tiny and everything is relatively short. Mostly because of this:






All four houses are placed on the overworld and are positioned appropriately on each side of that one river, although the two on the left are a tad lower than they should be. However, the point is that everything from the two left-most houses to the far right of the island is a pretty short walk. It would be fair to say that the far left, if it were mapped, would also only be about the size of the far right area.

However, the Rocks are still taller and also have a wider area despite their relatively small sprite proportions. I would assume that the point is the surrounding area is supposed to be incorporated into the level for some dungeons, as is the case for a couple of the tower dungeons and especially Venus Lighthouse. The issue with Golden Sun's overworld art style is that none of the sprites are ever representative of how their actual maps are visualized (houses are often taller than the Lemurian palace for example), but it would appear that they at least put a little effort into scaling Apojii correctly.

The point? Overworld scale is generally a pretty poor indicator of scale, but it can be okay-ish for the width and area of several locations. Lighthouse rooms also tend to be smaller than the total area of the two Apojii maps, so that works out somewhat. As for height, you can probably compare buildings pretty safely. Most houses only have one or two floors, but the house where you fight the thieves in GS1 has a battle background; backgrounds can be assumed to match the closest visions of the developers for their amount of detail alone. The house seems kind of tall, with two floors, an attic (the attic may be a part of the second floor, but it may not be), and a moderately arched ceiling. If you look at the lighthouse backgrounds, they tend to have arched ceilings as well, probably making their floors slightly taller. Rocks tend to be flat.

Okay, now lets look at Mercury Lighthouse. Unless I'm mistaken, it only has about 4-5 floors, minus the aerie, that are roughly the same height as the floors in houses. Maybe slightly higher arches in their ceilings. Zed will know for sure. It's also quite possible that the floors are pretty thick in order to support their non-wooden architecture, so we can assume that the distance between room floors (as in the ground/lowest flat parts) is slightly greater. Also keeping in mind that not all houses will have arched roofs.

So, a house with two floors:
 / \
|  |

A peni lighthouse with five, plus aerie:
  =
/   \
|   |
|   |
|   |
|   |
|   |

Which is fair. There is no evidence to support that they are taller than mountains, which themselves always look pretty short in the first two games.



TL;DR: Overworld sprites are never to scale, but their placement relative to their area can be sometimes if you incorporate their surrounding area with the dungeon maps. This means that you have to look at other sources, like battle backgrounds or comparisons between in-location maps, for a better gauge of relative size. Apojii is probably the map to use for area comparisons given that they lazily tried to put it to scale on the overworld. That being said, the lighthouses are not actually that tall (about normal lighthouse height). They are fairly wide though, maybe the width of Apojii, which is not shown in sprite size... but it never really is anyway. This also means that Weyard itself is actually pretty tiny. Either that or Apojii is much larger than it really is on the overworld.
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« Reply #21 on: January 15, 2016, 02:25:59 AM »

hm, even still the lighthouses aren't small by any means. they also have slightly taller floors (i think) then most other structures.

Maybe first we should look into the strange level of detail some of the maps have.

something like tret's tree is kinda clear as the shape of the floors are the same making a tree, however something like the gabomba statue where its floors actually shape the the statue and the exits all match up relatively where they are on the town map.

its an odd level of detail to pay attention to when making a basically 2d, room segmented dungeon. its also weird because some dungeons simply ignore this, why others focus on it. for example, jupiter lighthouse's rooms outline the basic shape of the lighthouse, even having higher floors being smaller, however this is the only lighthouse that does this, its also the only lighthouse with rounded rooms. the only exception to this rule is the mars lighthouse's 4 side towers which all end up in their respective places.

another example is in the sol sanctum the sol and luna rooms in the main chamber and in the trap room are directly above each other, and swap luna and sol respectively. however in the same dungeon in the room south of the trap room is the room with the first non reusable psynergy stone, that room doesn't fit because its a few tiles bigger on the inside then the outside. why would everything else have such detail, but one room be completely off.

This is basically what i mean by golden sun having strange level of detail. certain things have a level of detail that on one would even notice if they didn't build it in 3d, however other things are easy to see are messed up or don't match just by playing the game... i'm not sure I understand the design details of golden sun anymore...
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« Reply #22 on: May 02, 2016, 12:53:20 AM »

I think there's merit to this theory, after all there must be a reason they are tall structures, if the intention of the lighthouses was to put a bunch of puzzles as a deterrent then they could just take about any form, a labyrinth underground perhaps? Or some type of fortress? (Perhaps from a business point of view Camelot just wanted something different from the usual temple trope that Zelda games started)

But building on what they've given us, I think that the shape they take as large towers (and the large cylindrical space displayed by OP) could be very well interpreted as a hint on the functioning of the lighthouse, and the puzzles to keep it locked are built around the tower-like structure.

But I'd like to propose to see this from another angle. How did lighthouses come to be in the first place? I don't believe the answer is that simple as "well, they came to be to seal alchemy!" because their existence alone has several other implications; their current function is to emanate alchemy into Weyard but was that always the case? Being man-made, they are artificial means by which the world currently gets it's alchemy sustain so the real question here is how was it before. 

One possibility is that the sites where each lighthouse is installed are special areas (like the Elemental Rocks, but much more prominent) where their respective element is concentrated and exposed into the world and the lighthouse works as a water tap placed on this source of elemental energy that can close or open its flow. But they were made in such a way that if you opened the tap on full, it would cause the energy to shoot at Mt. Aleph to create the Stone of Sages which I believe is the original and main purpose of the lighthouses.

So in this case, it could lead to what OP proposes, the the star goes from the aerie all the way to the bottom and the chain reaction causes the element to flow back into the world.



« Last Edit: May 02, 2016, 12:56:36 AM by Radamanthys » Logged
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Yesterday at 07:26:16 PM
Fox: (path) 1 text=(address) char=(address) free=(address) ; << Well, closer to this... but yeah... even if I do choose to have defaults in the code, I could still use this method for overrides.
Yesterday at 07:24:28 PM
Fox: So like (path) 0 text=(address) char=(address) len=(number) ; (path) 1 free=(address) ; Or something. But that's just a quick example.
Yesterday at 06:59:14 PM
Fox: Hopefully. I was wanting to make it so you could put in the addresses/etc. as one of the arguments in the path. Hm?
Yesterday at 03:37:07 PM
KyleRunner: Nice! I hope you'll add compatibility with others games (GS1, Mario Golf and Tennis) soon.
January 14, 2018, 11:40:09 PM
Fox: Okay. Posted (in Downloads section) an initial cutdown version for now, for my text compressor. Basically to separate the code from my Editor for anyone who wants to mess with it. It only supports GS2, because I still didn't add the addresses/etc. for the other games.
January 14, 2018, 05:01:00 PM
Fox: Okay! Going to need to think how I want it to work. Initial thoughts is maybe have a number of arguments in the filepath thing. And have a number of shortcuts (files) to be used as examples. Assuming there are no problems.
January 14, 2018, 10:38:24 AM
KyleRunner: Well... I'm used to editing text ina a text editor, so... yes! Thanks in advance!
January 13, 2018, 11:38:43 PM
Fox: (Text editor = Text Document like notepad.)
January 13, 2018, 11:38:21 PM
Fox: Would you prefer during the text editing in a text editor? (Like what gstoolkit lets you do?) I could probably make a separate tool or something to compress it.
January 13, 2018, 10:10:02 PM
KyleRunner: Ok. Once I finish my Lost Age translation, I'll try a Mario Golf one. Thanks. (But I'll need help).
January 13, 2018, 10:03:17 PM
Fox: If you want to make it "permanent" (part of a hack), then you'd edit code in the ROM that writes to this location of the IDs you'd want to change. (You can find these locations by using a breakpoint debugger like SDL-H or no$gba.)
January 13, 2018, 10:00:11 PM
Fox: Reload/switch = Recommended to be done through Debug mode/warp menu, ofcourse... since doors seem to appear as if they were disabled? ; 03001238:01 and B+Start to get to warp menu.
January 13, 2018, 09:55:39 PM
Fox: @Kyle Runner = It might be, but you'd have to use the correct addresses for Mario Golf, rather than for GS2 as I have it right now. ; @raijinken = Yes. 02000454 = ID of leader. (Change this and reload/switch room you are in, enjoy.)
January 13, 2018, 02:23:29 PM
raijinken: Hey guys, is it possible to somehow change the lead character on the map? Was wondering. I remember there was a cheat to use Jenna, but what if I wanted Isaac, or Piers?
January 13, 2018, 02:10:03 PM
KyleRunner: Hey, Fox *
January 13, 2018, 02:09:37 PM
KyleRunner: Hey, is your text editor compatible with Mario Golf (GBA)?
January 11, 2018, 08:33:13 PM
Fox: But if it isn't an oversight, I still can't imagine it being that useful.
January 11, 2018, 08:28:24 PM
Fox: part, ofcourse.
January 11, 2018, 08:28:15 PM
Fox: 0200274C = Hmm... Stuff happens here when you use Cyclone around bushes. (These cause tile replacements, and setting event 0 to those tiles.) - And I guess this kept here so it can be scanned after battle. (To re-update the map.) So here is my fun thought (assuming if it is even possible, or even convenient if so.) ... Are there any events from other maps that could be disabled do to using Cyclone on bushes + Retreat glitch? I'll need to do some testing to make sure this isn't an oversight on my
January 09, 2018, 08:09:26 PM
Fox: And the chance for a Djinni battle is 50%.

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