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Question: If Golden Sun classes were implemented in Minecraft, which of the following methods do you think would be the most effective in translating GS stats (such as HP, Luck, etc.) to Minecraft player state data (such as
Use stats from vanilla Golden Sun as references to apply arguably equivalent effects to a Minecraft player
Scale stats from vanilla Golden Sun to fit Minecraft in a vanilla Minecraft-friendly way (no one-hit kills)
Use stats directly from vanilla Golden Sun in Minecraft without regard to how they affect vanilla Minecraft experience (my favorite, I find the vanilla Minecraft experience to be an empty shell, not to be preserved)

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Author Topic: Quick Poll - Golden Sun classes in Minecraft  (Read 4608 times)
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Majora
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« on: May 23, 2016, 10:54:36 PM »

Just thought I would run this by everyone, this question is especially directed to those who have performed work on modifications to Golden Sun such as The Balance Age, which modifies the class system in Golden Sun, just want to see where everyone is on this subject.



This is an idea I've been floating for awhile but have only now started to take a look at: how to implement a meaningful Golden Sun-esque class system and Psynergy system into Minecraft, to complement the Golden Sun: Decor and Golden Sun: Djinn mods I've completed previously, links below. I am putting thought in particular into how best to translate the class system of Golden Sun into a Minecraft setting (for the unitiated, Minecraft utilizes a player.dat file custom to each player, ie: player name 'John' logs into World A, "john.dat" is created in World A's Save that tracks all aspects of John's progress in that world, including amount of experience required until next level, items in inventory, active potion attributes, position in world, etc).

I want to avoid over-doing the issue, however, as I know how drilled-down one can get into the nitty gritty of stats and multipliers with classes in Golden Sun.

I am currently leaning towards a simple Character Creation suite, accessible to a new Minecraft player at start-up upon creating a new world, logging in to a world as a new player for the first time, or via an in-game Command or Key Bind.

This Suite would follow a slightly altered version of Golden Sun's character naming process, where the player is able to enter a Name to be known by, (defaulting to Isaac or Matthew; in the above image of a quick text input field & label GUI I've created in Minecraft 1.9, I default to Matthew) select an Elemental Affiliation (Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Mercury [Luna and Sol can be added at a later time if desired, keep it simple]) select a Character Portrait to accompany your outbound chat text (with a selection of all Golden Sun/TLA/Dark Dawn portraits to choose from, perhaps allow the user to add .PNG files up to 72x72 to a directory in the mod folder for custom character portraits at a later time) and a default class for each element, each class with its own series of stat modifiers leveling in tandem with the stats assigned to them in vanilla Golden Sun. In traditional RPG form, the user may utilize any number of criteria (determinable at a later time) to change from one class to another, or ascend to higher tiers of a class.

The Name, Element, and Character Portrait defaults set by the player at game start would be used to affect two in-game features, the Chat box and combat. The Chat box would be affected in that it would be replaced at least partially with a more Golden Sun-esque chat system, where small backgrounds appear momentarily with user-entered text and an accompanying Character Portrait. Combat would be affected by Element affiliation, those who belong to Mars will perform less effectively in terms of damage dealt to and will take a higher rate of damage from those belonging to Mercury, and so on. Classes would translate to Minecraft by applying a multiplier to the player's stats. There are some ways this may be achieved (I'm considering segmenting which classes are available to the user by gender, ie: no female player will be able to have a Gallant class, no male player will be a Witch, etc.).

I believe this achievable basic setup would become a foundation upon which other additions to Minecraft could be added, such as monsters from the Golden Sun series, a meaningful Psynergy system, and other key components from the series.

To implement this, which of the following options do you think would be most appropriate:

1. - Use stats from vanilla Golden Sun as references to apply arguably equivalent effects to a Minecraft player
2. - Scale stats from vanilla Golden Sun to fit Minecraft in a vanilla Minecraft-friendly way (no one-hit kills)
3. - Use stats directly from vanilla Golden Sun in Minecraft without regard to how they affect vanilla Minecraft experience (my favorite, I find the vanilla Minecraft experience to be an empty shell, not to be preserved)

http://forum.goldensunhacking.net/index.php?topic=2436.0

http://forum.goldensunhacking.net/index.php?topic=2645.0
« Last Edit: May 25, 2016, 04:17:49 AM by Majora » Logged
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Rolina
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« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2016, 10:53:15 PM »

Interesting...

Is this going to be flat vanilla, or is it going to try to address some of GS' mechanical failings?
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Majora
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« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2016, 11:08:59 PM »

Most likely the former, I didn't know Golden Sun had any particular mechanic issues until your post lol.
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« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2016, 02:13:16 AM »

@mechanical issues: You mean like Summon Rushing?

If it was me, I think I'd prefer selecting Name, Gender, and Element all of the same screen so that it feels a bit shorter.... (And we don't have to feel like a bunch of things may come next.) but I guess it is up to a person's preferences.
Edit: And Character portrait.... It goes well beside the name anyway... and I'm sure it may even affect some people's naming decisions even... (maybe-ish.)
« Last Edit: May 25, 2016, 02:18:50 AM by Fox » Logged

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Rolina
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« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2016, 02:26:56 AM »

No, I mean that in later levels a wooden stick does more damage than even powerful spells like spark plasma and grand gaia.

Fixing summons is easy.  Just make them actually summon a mob.
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Majora
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« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2016, 02:48:49 AM »

Personally I'd call that an interesting bit of trivia lol, kind of awesome actually, going to town in end-game with a stick of all things. Could draw comparisons with the Zelda series' use of items obtained early in the game during end-game boss battles, such as the Fishing Rod and others. You can distract Ganondorf (and Demise as well, if I'm not mistaken) with items like the Fishing Rod, causing them to pause momentarily perhaps out of awe of the sheer ridiculousness on display, allowing you to get a few good attacks in. I'd say that adds charm lol; a quality Golden Sun is often thought to have, perhaps more so than any particular technical issues.

Not a bad idea, Fox, was thinking about how it would look all on one page. It would certainly make for a more open GUI, worth taking a look at. The current GUI I have here is a simple draft where opening the Name Entry page triggers the Golden Sun GBA start-up tone and starts to play the Golden Sun Menu Screen music, where entering a name and pressing OK triggers a Menu Select sound effect and opens the Gender Select screen, where selecting Boy or Girl simultaneously triggers a Menu Select sound effect and a short snippet of either a male or female 'voice' from the game (the squeaky voice everyone has, it's great lol) and opens the Element Select page, where selecting an Element simultaneously triggers a Menu Select sound effect and a 'sparkling' Djinn sound effect from Dark Dawn. Each page with the exception of the Name Entry page also offers the ability to go back. The idea is to use each user variable to determine how to build the Creation Suite spec; if the user selects Boy, a fork is then followed, where they will be led to a Character Portrait Select screen that only displays male portraits, and a possible Class Select page (changeable later on at any time) will therefore not display classes exclusive to females, such as Witch, and vice versa. Can use the NameEntry variable possibly as a string to be used in a feature such as the Minecraft chat box modification I mentioned earlier, where the name you entered is displayed next to your character portrait a la Golden Sun for a few seconds. The Name field is currently limited to 8 characters, up from Golden Sun's original limit of 5.

I have a feeling I may prefer the current setup of keeping each function separate from others over having all functions onscreen at one time, however, as I like to imagine the result is being displayed from a small device, such as the GBA screen for example. Gives it a pleasant vibe true to the source. That, and as many of the icons used are extracted from GS/TLA/DD, the image resolution tends to be on the smaller side, the images will often fare better on a smaller screen. Having too many small items display to the user at the same time may have a jarring effect.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2016, 02:59:22 AM by Majora » Logged
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« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2016, 03:48:53 AM »

If we take this a bit deeper.... (which may be unnecessary?)  Here's a quick thought:

-Are we 100% sure about separating female and male portraits? Since well... there is the transgender community and stuff... I'm sure there are people that go by one gender and prefer to look as another... (At least in a role-play/gaming sense... - Thinking of all those guys that use female characters, heheh...) - And basically, I can see people using the custom portrait thing to get the image that is already there, in that case.... So I'm thinking maybe a set-up where only the gender-related ones show up by default, but that there is a checkbox to show full list?

-How about people that want to be genderless? (Like referred to as "they" or "it"?)

And there probably is a way to still make the "all functions on one page" still work... but I haven't come up with any design plans yet... At worst, I can imagine needing a scroll bar, though. (Like if displaying in list format.)
« Last Edit: May 25, 2016, 03:50:59 AM by Fox » Logged

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Refer to Yoshi's Lighthouse for any M&L hacking needs...

Remember kids! Before you go on that interview, remember to wash your hands in teawater! *Coughs on hand* (Excuse me, I just coughed up a little teawater, so they're still clean!) You wouldn't want that hiring manager to be unimpressed.

May the force be with you!
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« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2016, 04:14:58 AM »

Quite sure, lol. The transgender community will have to resign themselves to using traditional pronouns for this occasion, if that can be managed. Think anything more than this from a development standpoint is a bit beyond the scope of a Golden Sun Minecraft mod. The importance of a true gender is notable in that it would affect which classes are available to the user.

Also added a quick demo video of the current setup:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nu8KnzbWO_k
« Last Edit: May 25, 2016, 04:18:16 AM by Majora » Logged
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« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2016, 08:12:51 AM »

Golden Sun does not originally distinguish between gender for classes, females can be Wizards, Swordsmen, Monks etc. If it seems like it would be an issue, you can use gender neutral class names or make alternate versions based on gender. But having gender restrictions for classes seems like it would be unnecessary. I'm more concerned about the fact that the female option has beast ears...

Bashing stuff with a stick is not quite as charming as it sounds, it's essentially the same as bashing them with a sword but slightly worse. However, I think the issue has less to do with physical damage being based on a stat that scales with level, and more to do with attack spells becoming obsolete by the time you get them once your levels start hitting the 30-40 range.
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« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2016, 11:25:02 AM »

It might be a good idea to have several different class lines to pick from for each element and build.  After all, if they want to be a physical jupiter adept, why force them into the more mage-like classes vanilla uses?  Also, what are your plans for alt-classes?  IMO, it's probably a bad idea to stick with vanilla for those, since those are optimized for Team Isaac, and only for Team Isaac...

Personally I'd call that an interesting bit of trivia lol, kind of awesome actually, going to town in end-game with a stick of all things. Could draw comparisons with the Zelda series' use of items obtained early in the game during end-game boss battles, such as the Fishing Rod and others. You can distract Ganondorf (and Demise as well, if I'm not mistaken) with items like the Fishing Rod, causing them to pause momentarily perhaps out of awe of the sheer ridiculousness on display, allowing you to get a few good attacks in. I'd say that adds charm lol; a quality Golden Sun is often thought to have, perhaps more so than any particular technical issues.
No, that's not "a bit of trivia" - it's one of the major reasons that unleashes are so OP in vanilla.  Basically, attack gets stronger with level, but psynergy has no equivalent stat.  For mages like me, this is a problem.  If you want to keep things strictly vanilla with stats, look into what Caledor did with his patch.  If you want to add new stats for psynergy, I've been working on that.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2016, 11:37:25 AM by Rolina » Logged

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Majora
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« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2016, 12:11:59 PM »

Perhaps we view the game from a different perspective, seems we may agree to disagree on this issue of scaling stats of the original Golden Sun. Bear in mind, this is a Minecraft mod, the idea is to implement a class system dutiful to the source in a Minecraft setting - balancing the source game's stats to fit a new scaling criteria, easing the Mage's original gameplay experience, and managing females with 'beast ears' are examples of what I consider to be unnecessarily beyond the scope of a Minecraft mod. A classic case of getting a little too bogged down in detail work.
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Rolina
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« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2016, 01:52:21 AM »

* Rolina shrugs.

To me, it's just simply have eight classes for each element, each one independent of gender.  Though to say eight is a bit off.  You're basically doing this for both warriors and casters:

Attacker - Direct offense, like Isaac
Defender - Direct defense, like Garet
Controller - Indirect offense, like Ivan
Supporter - Indirect defense, like Mia

Whether you approach it like the Balance Patch or like my Character Creation system is up to you.  If you don't want to do either, then just make four per element, one class for each of those.  That should be sufficient enough for people to have both good class options, and pick the element they want.  Having multiple power sources (whether it be PP or Casting is irrelevant) would allow for people like me to play in the way they want, even if it's not fully customizable.

As for Gender... that shouldn't really even be considered, since that's easily done via skins and the Gender mod.  Might as well remove the step, since it shouldn't have any bearing on what you're trying to do.
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Majora
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« Reply #12 on: May 26, 2016, 02:21:25 AM »

Definitely an interesting approach.
I was thinking to perhaps integrate all existing classes from the first game, Squire, Knight, Gallant, and so on. What I'm still thinking through is by which variable should the user be able to choose which class they like. In Golden Sun, the number and type of Djinn you assign to one character is what drives this. This could be achieved in Minecraft in a similar way, perhaps an If Then type setup (check for items in player inventory/r/n If item x And item y And item z exist in inventory, do event). I could use existing assets from the Djinn mod, if needed. I'm sure there are other methods that can be used to achieve this, as well
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Rolina
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« Reply #13 on: May 26, 2016, 11:03:59 AM »

...Okay, first, you don't have to explain how classes work to any of us.  In fact, it's likely we've got a better understanding of how it works than you given how long we've worked with it.

Second, the examples you gave are all from the same class line (in this case, the Slayer line), so a better example might have been Slayer, Chaos Lord, and Protector.

Finally, keep in mind the absolute mess that alt-classes cause for groups other than Isaac's.  It's why Jenna Syndrome and Piers Syndrome exist.  You'll need to come up with a solution to that problem - and YES, it is a problem.  Personally, I think a simple Inversion/shift toggle would be fine, and keep the spirit of what you want to do, but given your statements thus far, I wonder...
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« Reply #14 on: May 26, 2016, 10:05:48 PM »

No need to be rude, Rolina, I understand that this is a topic you have invested quite a bit of time into. This is why the thread is directed to people such as yourself, who have a better understanding of the class system in Golden Sun than I. The reason I use extra exposition in this thread is to help clarify the topic to new visitors, perhaps someone coming to this thread via a Google search, to provide some context. Please calm down.
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Today at 03:35:58 PM
Fox: Referring to the Golf game.
Today at 03:35:07 PM
Fox: Interesting. So... Atrius's Editor = It seems there are fewer English lines in the (U) version? So the number of strings he coded in for is based on the (E) version.
January 17, 2018, 04:07:51 PM
KyleRunner: :D
January 16, 2018, 08:44:56 PM
Fox: I must say... life can be complicated..... when you have question(s) (via email) ... and it seems like they sort of get ignored. :D ; Fun, (And sometimes, a person may respond, and completely not answer the question.... so like... 3-person conversation.) Hahahaha!!
January 15, 2018, 07:26:16 PM
Fox: (path) 1 text=(address) char=(address) free=(address) ; << Well, closer to this... but yeah... even if I do choose to have defaults in the code, I could still use this method for overrides.
January 15, 2018, 07:24:28 PM
Fox: So like (path) 0 text=(address) char=(address) len=(number) ; (path) 1 free=(address) ; Or something. But that's just a quick example.
January 15, 2018, 06:59:14 PM
Fox: Hopefully. I was wanting to make it so you could put in the addresses/etc. as one of the arguments in the path. Hm?
January 15, 2018, 03:37:07 PM
KyleRunner: Nice! I hope you'll add compatibility with others games (GS1, Mario Golf and Tennis) soon.
January 14, 2018, 11:40:09 PM
Fox: Okay. Posted (in Downloads section) an initial cutdown version for now, for my text compressor. Basically to separate the code from my Editor for anyone who wants to mess with it. It only supports GS2, because I still didn't add the addresses/etc. for the other games.
January 14, 2018, 05:01:00 PM
Fox: Okay! Going to need to think how I want it to work. Initial thoughts is maybe have a number of arguments in the filepath thing. And have a number of shortcuts (files) to be used as examples. Assuming there are no problems.
January 14, 2018, 10:38:24 AM
KyleRunner: Well... I'm used to editing text ina a text editor, so... yes! Thanks in advance!
January 13, 2018, 11:38:43 PM
Fox: (Text editor = Text Document like notepad.)
January 13, 2018, 11:38:21 PM
Fox: Would you prefer during the text editing in a text editor? (Like what gstoolkit lets you do?) I could probably make a separate tool or something to compress it.
January 13, 2018, 10:10:02 PM
KyleRunner: Ok. Once I finish my Lost Age translation, I'll try a Mario Golf one. Thanks. (But I'll need help).
January 13, 2018, 10:03:17 PM
Fox: If you want to make it "permanent" (part of a hack), then you'd edit code in the ROM that writes to this location of the IDs you'd want to change. (You can find these locations by using a breakpoint debugger like SDL-H or no$gba.)
January 13, 2018, 10:00:11 PM
Fox: Reload/switch = Recommended to be done through Debug mode/warp menu, ofcourse... since doors seem to appear as if they were disabled? ; 03001238:01 and B+Start to get to warp menu.
January 13, 2018, 09:55:39 PM
Fox: @Kyle Runner = It might be, but you'd have to use the correct addresses for Mario Golf, rather than for GS2 as I have it right now. ; @raijinken = Yes. 02000454 = ID of leader. (Change this and reload/switch room you are in, enjoy.)
January 13, 2018, 02:23:29 PM
raijinken: Hey guys, is it possible to somehow change the lead character on the map? Was wondering. I remember there was a cheat to use Jenna, but what if I wanted Isaac, or Piers?
January 13, 2018, 02:10:03 PM
KyleRunner: Hey, Fox *
January 13, 2018, 02:09:37 PM
KyleRunner: Hey, is your text editor compatible with Mario Golf (GBA)?

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