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Question: If Golden Sun classes were implemented in Minecraft, which of the following methods do you think would be the most effective in translating GS stats (such as HP, Luck, etc.) to Minecraft player state data (such as
Use stats from vanilla Golden Sun as references to apply arguably equivalent effects to a Minecraft player
Scale stats from vanilla Golden Sun to fit Minecraft in a vanilla Minecraft-friendly way (no one-hit kills)
Use stats directly from vanilla Golden Sun in Minecraft without regard to how they affect vanilla Minecraft experience (my favorite, I find the vanilla Minecraft experience to be an empty shell, not to be preserved)

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Author Topic: Quick Poll - Golden Sun classes in Minecraft  (Read 5815 times)
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Rolina
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« Reply #15 on: May 27, 2016, 12:05:15 AM »

* Rolina sighs.

Stupid written text not translating tone.  I'm not mad or angry.  Mildly amused, perhaps.  But not angry.

Okay, so lets look away from all of that for now, since you're being stubborn and not listening to suggestions.  So instead, let me ask you something simple - will this mod be friendly with other mods?
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Fox
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« Reply #16 on: May 27, 2016, 11:20:27 AM »

I am with Rolina... She didn't seem mad or angry when I read that post... (And if that's the way she sounded, I'm sure she didn't mean it that way.)

(And I also like the thing about not limiting the classes to gender-specific... based on what Misery said. - If that's the way it works, and we start making them gender specific, then I start wondering if we're going into another direction... Maybe something similar to what Final Fantasy MIGHT do... I dunno. - But I guess we can be open to mixes like that, just like how art isn't about being perfect.)


GS1 is just elemental levels, GS2 introduces item classes and one class line to Jenna's base classes (Flame User line.), and another clas line to Piers's base classes.... Does GS3 do anything notable?
« Last Edit: May 27, 2016, 11:28:55 AM by Fox » Logged

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Rolina
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« Reply #17 on: May 27, 2016, 11:26:19 AM »

As far as I'm concerned, you don't even need to name the classes.  Sure, many people will recognize them, but giving the ability for someone to choose their own name for their class I'm sure would be welcomed, or maybe just don't use class names in and of themselves.  After all, the vast majority of people who play minecraft probably haven't even heard of golden sun.  Not explicitly naming classes would probably be a good thing when trying to adapt it to the Minecraft audience.
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« Reply #18 on: May 27, 2016, 02:39:49 PM »

Fox: GS3 gives the whole second party the Jenna/Piers treatment, as well as adding a couple additional class lines for some characters and the whole Sveta/werewolf mechanic. For everything the game did wrong, this actually was a marked improvement over GS2.


Gender/sex issue: I agree with the others, why should it have a bearing on class or gameplay itself? Don't forget that this is a pretty open game where people can choose their own skins and can also decide what to do with their time, and is also one where nothing is gendered unless players want them to be. The point of Minecraft is essentially to make what you want of it. But then there's this:

Quote
The transgender community will have to resign themselves to using traditional pronouns for this occasion, if that can be managed.

Forcing gender roles into this mod while also saying something like this comes off as condescending at best and offensive at worst, not only towards transgender and others (depending on preferred terms, pronouns, etc.), but also towards those who do identify with other roles or even with a male/female binary. Going by your examples, why can't a man be a witch? Why should gallant be male-only at all, when gender identity plays no part in one being brave and heroic? What about those who don't place themselves within a male-female binary? For example, someone who is two-spirited?

Plus, it seems like it would take more effort to program combat around this rather than just leaving things more open to customization. In a version of this mod without assigned man or wolfwoman gender roles, I would expect a few things:
- To either have the ability to design my own portraits, even if it just copies the face of my character's current skin, or not have them at all;
- Assuming you use voice clips, the ability to choose from any voice clip I want (like in Saints Row 3, where I was a buff blue dude with a female voice);
- The ability to call a class whatever I want every time I go into it, even if the name isn't actually saved or written anywhere;
- The ability to name or at least choose which abilities I can have upon entering said class (with limits for the sake of balance), and while on the subject of expectations;
- The ability to name any djinn I get, and also to store them indefinitely like I would items in a chest.

With these, I could have my settings actually match what I see for my Minecraft character (currently skinned as a leatherman/daddy bear for a joke, which most GS portraits do not match), and I could enjoy adventuring as whoever I want in any GS or non-GS themed world as I see fit. More importantly, you wouldn't have to code for any differences in gender whatsoever because everything related to gender would be up to the player to decide, and there would be one less mechanic that you have to patch later on.


Also, given that you're trying to adapt GS mechanics to Minecraft, I could even argue that you would be further ahead to scrap stats and leveling up altogether and just use djinn to decide moveset eligibility and spell power. You could still allow for warrior adepts to exist by balancing equipment and physical abilities so they don't overpower magical adepts, and you could still allow for monster scaling and differences in difficulty through the djinn system. Perhaps changing it so djinn unlock spell tiers rather than spell lines would be better for a Minecraft setting?


Otherwise, I'm a tad curious about why you made the poll rather than just a topic/post. You seem to be pretty set on how you want to balance stats and other things, to the point where you are arguing in favour of several things in a way that almost sounds like you're set on them despite the introduction post stating otherwise; you even stated what your preferred option was in the poll itself. What kind of input are you looking for exactly?
« Last Edit: May 27, 2016, 02:47:46 PM by Lord Squirtle » Logged

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« Reply #19 on: May 27, 2016, 10:50:23 PM »

True, I do prefer the option to integrate stats as they exist rather than scaling, adjusting, or altering them to account for perceived issues with the original or with regard to how they affect Minecraft's combat experience (my reasoning for this is multi-faceted, but a primary point is, upon completing this basic framework of stat modification based on some allowed user-entered variables, interesting things such as Monsters with weaknesses and strengths based upon your Element can be implemented at a later point. Who would even want to fight dull vanilla creepers or zombies when you have Dullahan to contend with lol, would be low-level shenanigans in comparison with end-goal's results).

I choose to emphasize the importance of gender as a variable that affects separate elements for many reasons, but foremost so as to allow the user a more custom Minecraft experience, which even the most stubborn person can agree often has a degree of separation from the user. Of course you can dress up your user skin as fully as you possibly can within the limitations of ~16x16 textures and square model shapes, but the experience itself does not change to reflect your choice; you are a model that exists to break blocks, lol. Think of Pokemon, Final Fantasy, even Zelda to a degree post Hyrule Warriors: Legends, you are given a greater ability to customize the game experience to you, be it by playing as a male or female, or as your favorite character. In practice, this is the difference between not implementing a feature at all, implementing a feature based reasonably upon two static variables, and implementing a feature based on an indeterminable number of variables, one for however many gender options one may insist on being included. For this purpose, I do not find this reasonable level of customization a topic of debate. Further, I also do not find one's gender identity to be a primary port of call in developing or not developing a feature; restricting development to account for one demographic among many is not feasible from a development standpoint, and does not suit the goal of this project. There are places for issues like these, neither this Minecraft mod nor this thread are among them.

Of course we all feel a certain way, it's rare for one not to have an opinion, which is why liberty was taken to include and label my own in parenthesis within the list of three available polling options, where it currently seems to be leading, as of 5/27. Feasibility is paramount in any project, and speaking bluntly, Golden Sun 1 would still be in development to this day if each project aspect were open to discussion with the goal of pleasing everyone, lol, that's life, unfortunately. I ask for your opinion on the issue to see where you stand, as everyone is capable of producing interesting ideas, which are of course welcome and are not all implausible, but please do not confuse consultation with a promise to consider, modify, or allocate development time one way or another.
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leaf
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« Reply #20 on: May 27, 2016, 11:17:34 PM »

If you want to incorporate a sense of "gender" without explicitly calling it that, use something like "build." A "sturdy build" would correlate to male, and a "light build" would correlate to female, but it doesn't prevent someone from having a sturdy female or a light male. This tackles the same problem while sidestepping the gender issue.
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Spoiler for quotes:
[9:00:50 PM] Randel Peltier: Ok...what did I do last night?
[9:01:19 PM] Kain: Something boring, repetitive, and lasted for about sixty seconds.
---
[10:45:08 AM] Salanewt: But yeah, the elemental phalluses are being... Stroked up by Saturos and co., and the energy will go towards... Mt. Muffin, where the Golden Climax will arise.
[7:28:42 PM] Salanewt: An added bonus is that Isaac and co. were trying to stop Saturos and co. because their beliefs state that Mt. Muffin should remain a virgin.
---
[9:54:21 PM] Randel Peltier: Guess the number in my head an you get to pick what I say. Number between 1-10
[9:54:28 PM] leaf: 11
[9:54:36 PM] Randel Peltier: @#$%!
---
[8:38:13 PM] Randel Peltier: Shes like this queen up on a pedastal that I have yet to court.
[8:38:29 PM] Kain: You've tried courting her.
[8:38:43 PM] leaf: and failed spectacularly
[8:38:44 PM] Randel Peltier: Ive tried...shes the best dating game ever.
---
[12:24:35 AM] Salanewt: I need to find a picture of a naked person to put on the Christmas tree next year.
---
[2:19:06 PM] Zeadra: wait... Rief's a guy???
---
[1:09:57 PM] Zeadra: well if you want to know if its a new effect or something weird, just check GS1, if side step is there maby it is the nimble dodge thing
[1:10:35 PM] Kioll: For once, you've contributed something useful.  o.O
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Salanewt
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« Reply #21 on: May 27, 2016, 11:27:06 PM »

Minecraft being less customizable than those games: Um, what? I could maybe see a game like Skyrim being a worthy comparison, but all of your examples have pretty rigid plots and settings that encourage a set path and lead you towards a predetermined conclusion. Minecraft is digital Lego, which can be whatever one wants it to be. Leaf's suggestion is honestly a much better way to handle "gender" in a way that still allows further customization within the framework you want to use, but without the other issues that would arise from a gender thing.

...I ask for your opinion on the issue to see where you stand, as everyone is capable of producing interesting ideas, which are of course welcome and are not all implausible, but please do not confuse consultation with a promise to consider, modify, or allocate development time one way or another.

So you want to see our ideas, but want little to do with them unless they fit with what you're looking to do? Unless I'm reading this wrong, because it's starting to look like you just want us to validate your ideas rather than offer constructive criticism to improve your final mod. What's the point in even making the topic or poll if this is the case?
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Fox
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« Reply #22 on: May 27, 2016, 11:44:59 PM »

@Witch: Looking at dictionary.com, I think you can still technically call a guy a "Witch", it's just that it's more dominate in a woman. While warlock directly states male... even with the word "witch" there.

witch:
a person, now especially a woman, who professes or is supposed to practice magic or sorcery; a sorceress.

warlock
a man who professes or is supposed to practice magic or sorcery; a male witch; sorcerer.

--
So my question is? Do we have a list of all the gender-specific classes? (Nice to have an idea for how many.)


--
Am I right to assume this?
People in favor of not using a gender variable are?
Teawater/Fox, Lord Squirtle, Rolina, Misery

People in favor of using a gender variable are?
Majora
« Last Edit: May 27, 2016, 11:48:57 PM by Fox » Logged

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Refer to Yoshi's Lighthouse for any M&L hacking needs...

Remember kids! Before you go on that interview, remember to wash your hands in teawater! *Coughs on hand* (Excuse me, I just coughed up a little teawater, so they're still clean!) You wouldn't want that hiring manager to be unimpressed.

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Rolina
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« Reply #23 on: May 27, 2016, 11:58:17 PM »

I'm still worried about this mod not playing nice with others.  Integrating stats themselves, rather than adapting spells to work according to minecraft mechanics, can basically break the hell out of the game.  Think about HP alone, and how that'll break the s*** out of the game.

Default minecraft HP is 20 - 2 per heart.  GS maxes out at 1999, effectively 2000 for ease of rounding.  Even if you were to say Minecraft HP = GS HP/10, you have the issue of the fact that 200 is a low level value for HP... for mages in GS, and they have super low HP growths and multipliers.  That means very quickly, you're going to hit higher values.  Think about how that's going to effect the balance of the game.  We're talking it not very difficult to actually hit 5 rows of hearts - and because you're likely to have stuff scale with other stats, it basically means that ONLY the GS mod will be worth using in minecraft.  If you try doing it so that GS HP/100, then the opposite happens - your turn every other mod out there into OP instakill weapons.

And what if you were to separate HP from Hearts?  Well, then why the hell would I use GS stuff to attack HP, when I can use Ars Magica and Thaumcraft and kill you quickly by attacking your hearts instead of HP.

That's why the whole discussion of how to convert stats I think is problematic - you're not taking into account how people play minecraft, and if you decide to make this standalone, it will be passed over in favor of other mods that are friendly with one another.


@Witch/Warlock:  These are both gender neutral.  The example of a Witch in D&D manuals is male.  My warlock character is a girl (Marida).  I even have a full GS class for her:
Spoiler for Hidden:
« Last Edit: May 28, 2016, 12:00:28 AM by Rolina » Logged

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Majora
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« Reply #24 on: May 28, 2016, 02:20:18 PM »

So you want to see our ideas, but want little to do with them unless they fit with what you're looking to do?

You are correct. Hardly a far-fetched concept, of course not every single idea can be considered. I wouldn't take it to heart, there are plenty of ideas I would like to implement as well that are certainly desirable, but in practice just aren't quite achievable either.
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« Reply #25 on: May 28, 2016, 03:44:57 PM »

I think what Squirtle was trying to say there was that you don't need ideas if you already know what you're going to do.

Now, I don't play Minecraft so I can't get too involved with the specifics, but everything so far seems like relatively simple suggestions. You act as if the notion that something could potentially not be the most efficient distribution of work in regards to the end result (according to what measure?) means you have to dismiss any and all ideas with no consideration. You're not on a budget or a deadline, you don't have to manage a staff, allocate resources, or meet a certain result. You can do as much or as little as you feel like.

So, don't ask other people for ideas if you don't intend to consider them. If you don't want to do something because you disagree with the idea or just don't want to put in the effort... that's perfectly fine. But trying to rationalize it any other way just looks silly.
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Rolina
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« Reply #26 on: May 28, 2016, 04:05:06 PM »

Aye.  You're blatantly dismissing and ignoring people, rather than actually accepting the very thing you're asking for.  Makes one ask why you're even here, if you're just going to reject everything.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2016, 04:09:54 PM by Rolina » Logged

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Fox
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« Reply #27 on: May 28, 2016, 07:27:01 PM »

@Witch/Warlock:  These are both gender neutral. 

I was going for a real-world point-of-view...(Based on dictionary.com --witch(neutral), warlock(male))  But for the game, it seems to be...  I don't even know if it's like... the class is male, and that doesn't stop a girl or boy from using the class... Similar to how a pencil or pen can be a boy or girl... (Thinking about romantic languages)... but that doesn't stop either of us from using one....

---

Quote
I think what Squirtle was trying to say there was that you don't need ideas if you already know what you're going to do.
Similar to what I thought... But I'm guessing he may not know *exactly* what he's going to do... b/c, for example... I don't see that male/female class separation list yet!  Which I believe may be one of the key points to proving that it (and its feasibility) has been fairly well thought-out.  (I think maybe it is more work than it is worth.)  But perhaps maybe the wrong questions are being asked...?
« Last Edit: May 28, 2016, 07:41:49 PM by Fox » Logged

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Remember kids! Before you go on that interview, remember to wash your hands in teawater! *Coughs on hand* (Excuse me, I just coughed up a little teawater, so they're still clean!) You wouldn't want that hiring manager to be unimpressed.

May the force be with you!
Shoo! Why does it smell in here?
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« Reply #28 on: May 28, 2016, 09:27:42 PM »

Still say it'd be easier just to have people name their class.

...Actually, now that I think about it, why the hell would we be naming our character?  Wouldn't we be using the Minecraft names?
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Fox
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« Reply #29 on: May 28, 2016, 09:42:07 PM »

@Naming own classes: That could work... unless in a multiplayer setting where people are suppose to be /sharing/ the same classes... um... I dunno. (e.g. Even if two people saw the same class with two different names, how would we refer to the class by name if we wanted to explain something?)

@Names:  Ooh! You raise a valid point.
Maybe he wants to add in character swapping? (So each person gets to control a whole party.)
« Last Edit: May 28, 2016, 09:46:15 PM by Fox » Logged

Golden Sun Docs: Broken Seal - The Lost Age - Dark Dawn | Mario Sports Docs: Mario Golf & Mario Tennis | Misc. Docs
Refer to Yoshi's Lighthouse for any M&L hacking needs...

Remember kids! Before you go on that interview, remember to wash your hands in teawater! *Coughs on hand* (Excuse me, I just coughed up a little teawater, so they're still clean!) You wouldn't want that hiring manager to be unimpressed.

May the force be with you!
Shoo! Why does it smell in here?
Maybe that's the wrong kind of force. *smirk*
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Cbox
May 09, 2018, 12:35:37 AM
KyleRunner: The "Start In" field is not editable... I'll try making new shortcuts
May 08, 2018, 09:51:08 PM
Fox: If all else fails, you canmake new Shortcuts to do the same thing.
May 08, 2018, 09:49:53 PM
Fox: Export Properties > Shortcut (Tab) > Target / Start In ; Target (for Export) should be: (filename) 0 , and for Import: (filename) 1
May 08, 2018, 08:52:00 PM
KyleRunner: I can't change the path in properties menu...
May 08, 2018, 01:27:19 AM
Fox: You may need to edit something in properties, though... so it uses the exe file in the same directory.
May 08, 2018, 01:24:59 AM
Fox: It is suppose to be a shortcut, yes.
May 03, 2018, 11:48:05 PM
KyleRunner: Fox, the "export" function in your text editor is just a shortcut... Could you please fix it?
May 02, 2018, 09:53:45 PM
KyleRunner: I come here everyday. I'm working on a Portuguese translation, and the people here help me a lot.
May 02, 2018, 08:56:07 AM
Drake baku: My feel as well, I posted a little as well since my return, but silence was all that followed... At least the forum is a great source for data when hacking GS/ GS2, currently looking for something I have read a long time ago cause my PP recovery psy is not working
May 01, 2018, 09:58:04 AM
Fox: I am thinking a lot of this might be because of Discord?
May 01, 2018, 09:56:08 AM
Fox: Yeah, this forum is more dead than ever before.  February and April have 0 new topics. (All other months prior have more.) And March has lowest number of new posts. (It'd be dumb to count the very first month this site was created.)
April 25, 2018, 09:02:13 PM
Fox: Yes. The best tool is a hex editor. Well.... VBA, VBA-SDL-H, no$gba Debugger, GBATEK, and my documentation.... to use these to learn how the code/data works. Best method because it maximizes your editing ability... and then there is my program gsmagic that I was working on. Still in its early stages, though. (Even after year(s).)
April 25, 2018, 04:21:58 PM
Xendrox D: *exept tla editor.
April 25, 2018, 04:21:29 PM
Xendrox D: is there any other tool for hacking gs?
April 23, 2018, 09:26:27 PM
Atrius: Rarely, but not never.
April 23, 2018, 08:01:48 AM
Drake baku: Can it be, the god who created the editor, atrius. I heard you never came back online here anymore
April 20, 2018, 02:46:36 PM
KyleRunner: Atrius!!
April 19, 2018, 11:29:46 PM
Atrius: @Fox, I tried, but for some reason Mario Golf won't boot, and Mario Tennis crashes when you patch out the text compression, and I'm not sure why...  The normal text loading functions in them are basically the same as the ones in the Golden Sun games.
April 16, 2018, 07:44:36 AM
Drake baku: So it took about halve a hour of letting my lap stay off for it to suddenly work again
April 16, 2018, 07:31:28 AM
Drake baku: All of a sudden fox his editor gets errors. When trying to start it, thing worked fine yesterday...

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