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Question: If Golden Sun classes were implemented in Minecraft, which of the following methods do you think would be the most effective in translating GS stats (such as HP, Luck, etc.) to Minecraft player state data (such as
Use stats from vanilla Golden Sun as references to apply arguably equivalent effects to a Minecraft player
Scale stats from vanilla Golden Sun to fit Minecraft in a vanilla Minecraft-friendly way (no one-hit kills)
Use stats directly from vanilla Golden Sun in Minecraft without regard to how they affect vanilla Minecraft experience (my favorite, I find the vanilla Minecraft experience to be an empty shell, not to be preserved)

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Author Topic: Quick Poll - Golden Sun classes in Minecraft  (Read 11321 times)
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leaf
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« Reply #20 on: May 27, 2016, 11:17:34 PM »

If you want to incorporate a sense of "gender" without explicitly calling it that, use something like "build." A "sturdy build" would correlate to male, and a "light build" would correlate to female, but it doesn't prevent someone from having a sturdy female or a light male. This tackles the same problem while sidestepping the gender issue.
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Spoiler for quotes:
[9:00:50 PM] Randel Peltier: Ok...what did I do last night?
[9:01:19 PM] Kain: Something boring, repetitive, and lasted for about sixty seconds.
---
[10:45:08 AM] Salanewt: But yeah, the elemental phalluses are being... Stroked up by Saturos and co., and the energy will go towards... Mt. Muffin, where the Golden Climax will arise.
[7:28:42 PM] Salanewt: An added bonus is that Isaac and co. were trying to stop Saturos and co. because their beliefs state that Mt. Muffin should remain a virgin.
---
[9:54:21 PM] Randel Peltier: Guess the number in my head an you get to pick what I say. Number between 1-10
[9:54:28 PM] leaf: 11
[9:54:36 PM] Randel Peltier: @#$%!
---
[8:38:13 PM] Randel Peltier: Shes like this queen up on a pedastal that I have yet to court.
[8:38:29 PM] Kain: You've tried courting her.
[8:38:43 PM] leaf: and failed spectacularly
[8:38:44 PM] Randel Peltier: Ive tried...shes the best dating game ever.
---
[12:24:35 AM] Salanewt: I need to find a picture of a naked person to put on the Christmas tree next year.
---
[2:19:06 PM] Zeadra: wait... Rief's a guy???
---
[1:09:57 PM] Zeadra: well if you want to know if its a new effect or something weird, just check GS1, if side step is there maby it is the nimble dodge thing
[1:10:35 PM] Kioll: For once, you've contributed something useful.  o.O
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« Reply #21 on: May 27, 2016, 11:27:06 PM »

Minecraft being less customizable than those games: Um, what? I could maybe see a game like Skyrim being a worthy comparison, but all of your examples have pretty rigid plots and settings that encourage a set path and lead you towards a predetermined conclusion. Minecraft is digital Lego, which can be whatever one wants it to be. Leaf's suggestion is honestly a much better way to handle "gender" in a way that still allows further customization within the framework you want to use, but without the other issues that would arise from a gender thing.

...I ask for your opinion on the issue to see where you stand, as everyone is capable of producing interesting ideas, which are of course welcome and are not all implausible, but please do not confuse consultation with a promise to consider, modify, or allocate development time one way or another.

So you want to see our ideas, but want little to do with them unless they fit with what you're looking to do? Unless I'm reading this wrong, because it's starting to look like you just want us to validate your ideas rather than offer constructive criticism to improve your final mod. What's the point in even making the topic or poll if this is the case?
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« Reply #22 on: May 27, 2016, 11:44:59 PM »

@Witch: Looking at dictionary.com, I think you can still technically call a guy a "Witch", it's just that it's more dominate in a woman. While warlock directly states male... even with the word "witch" there.

witch:
a person, now especially a woman, who professes or is supposed to practice magic or sorcery; a sorceress.

warlock
a man who professes or is supposed to practice magic or sorcery; a male witch; sorcerer.

--
So my question is? Do we have a list of all the gender-specific classes? (Nice to have an idea for how many.)


--
Am I right to assume this?
People in favor of not using a gender variable are?
Teawater/Fox, Lord Squirtle, Rolina, Misery

People in favor of using a gender variable are?
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« Last Edit: May 27, 2016, 11:48:57 PM by Fox » Logged

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« Reply #23 on: May 27, 2016, 11:58:17 PM »

I'm still worried about this mod not playing nice with others.  Integrating stats themselves, rather than adapting spells to work according to minecraft mechanics, can basically break the hell out of the game.  Think about HP alone, and how that'll break the s*** out of the game.

Default minecraft HP is 20 - 2 per heart.  GS maxes out at 1999, effectively 2000 for ease of rounding.  Even if you were to say Minecraft HP = GS HP/10, you have the issue of the fact that 200 is a low level value for HP... for mages in GS, and they have super low HP growths and multipliers.  That means very quickly, you're going to hit higher values.  Think about how that's going to effect the balance of the game.  We're talking it not very difficult to actually hit 5 rows of hearts - and because you're likely to have stuff scale with other stats, it basically means that ONLY the GS mod will be worth using in minecraft.  If you try doing it so that GS HP/100, then the opposite happens - your turn every other mod out there into OP instakill weapons.

And what if you were to separate HP from Hearts?  Well, then why the hell would I use GS stuff to attack HP, when I can use Ars Magica and Thaumcraft and kill you quickly by attacking your hearts instead of HP.

That's why the whole discussion of how to convert stats I think is problematic - you're not taking into account how people play minecraft, and if you decide to make this standalone, it will be passed over in favor of other mods that are friendly with one another.


@Witch/Warlock:  These are both gender neutral.  The example of a Witch in D&D manuals is male.  My warlock character is a girl (Marida).  I even have a full GS class for her:
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« Reply #24 on: May 28, 2016, 02:20:18 PM »

So you want to see our ideas, but want little to do with them unless they fit with what you're looking to do?

You are correct. Hardly a far-fetched concept, of course not every single idea can be considered. I wouldn't take it to heart, there are plenty of ideas I would like to implement as well that are certainly desirable, but in practice just aren't quite achievable either.
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« Reply #25 on: May 28, 2016, 03:44:57 PM »

I think what Squirtle was trying to say there was that you don't need ideas if you already know what you're going to do.

Now, I don't play Minecraft so I can't get too involved with the specifics, but everything so far seems like relatively simple suggestions. You act as if the notion that something could potentially not be the most efficient distribution of work in regards to the end result (according to what measure?) means you have to dismiss any and all ideas with no consideration. You're not on a budget or a deadline, you don't have to manage a staff, allocate resources, or meet a certain result. You can do as much or as little as you feel like.

So, don't ask other people for ideas if you don't intend to consider them. If you don't want to do something because you disagree with the idea or just don't want to put in the effort... that's perfectly fine. But trying to rationalize it any other way just looks silly.
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« Reply #26 on: May 28, 2016, 04:05:06 PM »

Aye.  You're blatantly dismissing and ignoring people, rather than actually accepting the very thing you're asking for.  Makes one ask why you're even here, if you're just going to reject everything.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2016, 04:09:54 PM by Rolina » Logged

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« Reply #27 on: May 28, 2016, 07:27:01 PM »

@Witch/Warlock:  These are both gender neutral. 

I was going for a real-world point-of-view...(Based on dictionary.com --witch(neutral), warlock(male))  But for the game, it seems to be...  I don't even know if it's like... the class is male, and that doesn't stop a girl or boy from using the class... Similar to how a pencil or pen can be a boy or girl... (Thinking about romantic languages)... but that doesn't stop either of us from using one....

---

Quote
I think what Squirtle was trying to say there was that you don't need ideas if you already know what you're going to do.
Similar to what I thought... But I'm guessing he may not know *exactly* what he's going to do... b/c, for example... I don't see that male/female class separation list yet!  Which I believe may be one of the key points to proving that it (and its feasibility) has been fairly well thought-out.  (I think maybe it is more work than it is worth.)  But perhaps maybe the wrong questions are being asked...?
« Last Edit: May 28, 2016, 07:41:49 PM by Fox » Logged

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« Reply #28 on: May 28, 2016, 09:27:42 PM »

Still say it'd be easier just to have people name their class.

...Actually, now that I think about it, why the hell would we be naming our character?  Wouldn't we be using the Minecraft names?
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« Reply #29 on: May 28, 2016, 09:42:07 PM »

@Naming own classes: That could work... unless in a multiplayer setting where people are suppose to be /sharing/ the same classes... um... I dunno. (e.g. Even if two people saw the same class with two different names, how would we refer to the class by name if we wanted to explain something?)

@Names:  Ooh! You raise a valid point.
Maybe he wants to add in character swapping? (So each person gets to control a whole party.)
« Last Edit: May 28, 2016, 09:46:15 PM by Fox » Logged

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Sometimes I like to compare apples to oranges. (Figuratively) ... They are both fruits, but which one would you eat more? (If taken literally, I'd probably choose apples.)
Maybe it is over-analyzing, but it doesn't mean the information is useless.
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« Reply #30 on: May 29, 2016, 12:17:59 AM »

@sharing classes:  Would it matter?  One person's Knight is another person's Gladiator.  Not everyone would use them the same way, especially since he'll have to adapt all the psynergy from GS to Minecraft.  I mean, he's gonna have to figure out various things like range, shape, and duration.  Those can't be simply translated from GS to Minecraft, you know?  Still, depending on how they play, they may find Flare Wall more useful than Fireball, due to it's area being closer (and thus closer to melee range).
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« Reply #31 on: May 29, 2016, 04:40:40 AM »

Hmm... Probably doesn't matter. (It depends on if whether anyone sees it as confusing... but I guess I kind of doubt it... )

And then the next question would be: If anyone could change the name of their own class willy-nilly, then why would we need class names? (I start seeing it as a name separate from the class itself.) (Of course, it may still serve a cosmetic role-playing experience/purpose.) And then... Chances are that people wouldn't change them too often for the same reasons we don't change our usernames often. So umm.. yeah. I guess it doesn't matter?

As for translating it to Minecraft... I guess it could depends on how you do it. (Initialize a battle much like the one in GS? Which might seem strange?..., Or have it all done on the playing field? Etc.)
Oh the giggles at just imagining how those random battles would work in multiplayer. :D Probably very annoying and not fun. - It's like we could do it the way M&L does it, and base initializing a battle screen on collision with a visible enemy.... And then there's the question/strategy/balance of how co-operative (players=allies) and competitive (players=enemies) play would work out.... Since like, if the fight occured on the overworld... your friend might be an attacker, and you might be a caster. If you use a high area-of-effect psynergy on a monster... whether it should hit your friend or not could be something to think about.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2016, 05:14:11 AM by Fox » Logged

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Refer to Yoshi's Lighthouse for any M&L hacking needs...

Sometimes I like to compare apples to oranges. (Figuratively) ... They are both fruits, but which one would you eat more? (If taken literally, I'd probably choose apples.)
Maybe it is over-analyzing, but it doesn't mean the information is useless.
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« Reply #32 on: May 30, 2016, 02:04:21 PM »

Well, to be fair, you don't "need" the mod, either.  Ars Magica, Thaumcraft, and Witchery cover a lot of what people would look for in a golden sun mod.  As such, you'd need this to act like another magical option.  Each of those has their own system, and this would provide another.  I'd personally suggest staying away from all stats save for PP, and using the PP values of the classes you're basing it off of.  This would give a "fuel" value that recovers over time to prevent spamming of psynergy.  Another thing I'd recommend is to fill in the gaps left behind by vanilla.  Remember how there isn't a Samurai counterpart to the Paladin line?  Well, minecraft players will expect that.  Remember, you're not making this for GS fans, you're making this for minecraft fans.  You have to play into that.

There would be no battle screen.  ALL of this will have to take place live.  I don't think you guys get it - Minecraft isn't turn based.  It's live.  You'll have to convert ALL of GS' spells into action RPG counterparts.  That's not an insignificant effort.  You suddenly have to start thinking about things like the shapes of spells, as well as magnitude.  Remember, GS doesn't do flat damage across the board - spells get weaker further from the main target.  You'll have to find a way to make that work in a 3D game, and you can't just take the tactical RPG and convert it to tile based, either.  They can and will cast these at angles to all three coordinates - x, y, and z.

Stats and class is literally the LAST thing you should be thinking about.  The first thing to work on?  Get the spells working and looking good in minecraft.  The rest can follow afterwards, but you NEED to make sure the damn thing actually works before you try anything else.
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« Reply #33 on: May 30, 2016, 02:31:42 PM »

Quote
There would be no battle screen.  ALL of this will have to take place live.  I don't think you guys get it - Minecraft isn't turn based.  It's live. 
Doesn't mean we can't try it as an experiment... Basically Minecraft is an open sandbox... And I'm sure we could have several different mods taking different approaches. (But I am not planning on working on something like that any time soon...if I even choose to(?) (I wouldn't mind an all-in-one approach allowing for both options... Exclusively... and if you're a crazy dev with a wacky idea, maybe even both together as well. - One example could be the use of a special amulet that "slows down time" to properly allow for turn-based battles... I never said that was a "good idea"... but just an example.)

I know that SMBO is a multiplayer fangame that has done a battle screen thing.... (If I recall from memory.) So...


---
Also, another thing to note is that not everything in a 3D game has to be 3D... For example, those trees in SM64.... You just need to figure out special tricks and stuff... and didn't GS1/GS2 's battles sort of fake 3D? (The background and the PC/enemy sprites are 2D.) -- I am not sure if the calculation used for spell animations in battles would work enough or not... At least for a prototype.  (One of the things I haven't done a lot of studying on, unfortunately. Extracting them (The code for it) would surely take a lot of effort, though.)
« Last Edit: May 30, 2016, 03:01:30 PM by Fox » Logged

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Sometimes I like to compare apples to oranges. (Figuratively) ... They are both fruits, but which one would you eat more? (If taken literally, I'd probably choose apples.)
Maybe it is over-analyzing, but it doesn't mean the information is useless.
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« Reply #34 on: May 30, 2016, 06:44:11 PM »

This would also completely alienate other mods.  You may call it an experiment, but in today's modding culture in minecraft, it's it's not something that'll work well in a mod pack, it will be ignored.

Fox... how familiar are you with Minecraft and Modded Minecraft?  The comments you're making are baffling to me, since nearly everything you just said sounds completely devoid of context.
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« Reply #35 on: May 30, 2016, 08:28:45 PM »

I do agree that it would be less used... yes... Perhaps I should wait for someone else to show interest before going into greater detail.

@Minecraft: I remember testing it out a long time ago... Similar to Terraria, which I've also played.
There's day/night... There's mining... You have to build housing/lights to survive the nights... Etc. - It's also a popular game for putting cubes together for art.

And Minecraft Modding? I don't think I even touched? (I know there is one popular one... at least... But haven't bothered with it.)


--
It's a common thing to test a game, and then end up never going back to it... However, there are cases where I do keep coming back... (like RuneScape.) And even with that one I keep taking long breaks.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2016, 08:35:44 PM by Fox » Logged

Golden Sun Docs: Broken Seal - The Lost Age - Dark Dawn | Mario Sports Docs: Mario Golf & Mario Tennis | Misc. Docs
Refer to Yoshi's Lighthouse for any M&L hacking needs...

Sometimes I like to compare apples to oranges. (Figuratively) ... They are both fruits, but which one would you eat more? (If taken literally, I'd probably choose apples.)
Maybe it is over-analyzing, but it doesn't mean the information is useless.
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« Reply #36 on: May 31, 2016, 11:38:34 PM »

Role, I've gotten a few warnings about you in this topic.  Please calm down.
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« Reply #37 on: June 02, 2016, 11:53:00 AM »

@Kain:  Why?  I've not actually done anything meriting that.  

@Fox:  Yeah, check it out, if nothing than to get a feel for the stuff I'm saying.  The three mods I'm most familiar with for magic are Ars Magica, Thaumcraft, and Witchery, each of which approach it differently (Ars Magica is spellcraft based, Thaumcraft is tool-based, Witchery is primal-based).  A GS mod would actually fit in super well, since it'd be class and level based, essentially providing a different system that wouldn't interfere with the others.  You could even tie it in with minecraft's XP system to a degree, too.  It'd be a really great addition if approached right... But, well... There are things you have to consider when transitioning from one genre and/or culture into another, and compatibility with like mods is going to be huge.  If he can pull it off, it might even get popular in magic-centric modpacks.
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Cbox
February 26, 2020, 05:17:44 AM
Salanewt: New patch up; waited until now to make it because it's such a basic change, but it's here now.
February 25, 2020, 03:20:41 AM
Salanewt: Hey! Yeah, we can now make recoil damage in GS. Would you mind if I ask for a link to this video? I'm really curious. :P
February 24, 2020, 09:38:49 PM
Foreclosure: Alas, I still gotta play BoF dragon quarters. I saw on a video you guys can now make recoil damage in golden sun. Is it too hard?
February 17, 2020, 04:54:34 AM
Fox: I guess one thing this game has going for it is the Day and Night cycle.
February 17, 2020, 04:51:46 AM
Fox: Also, I noticed since the very beginning of the game, that usually the dresser drawers (whatever you call them) have items in them.
February 17, 2020, 04:48:20 AM
Fox: (And I only recently got Karn, the fourth PC.)
February 17, 2020, 04:36:01 AM
Fox: Was playing Breath of Fire I.... and I must say.... that game's pretty bland.... listening to the same songs basically everywhere... and multiple NPCs saying the exact same thing.  Most of it plays about the same... a maze with common useless items in chests, maybe you'll get one or two fine equipment, but yeah.  ... I want to check #II again later, the game I remember playing like... over a decade ago.
February 04, 2020, 08:06:18 AM
Salanewt: We're more active on the Discord though.
February 04, 2020, 08:06:01 AM
Salanewt: Oh hey! It does, yeah.
February 02, 2020, 06:42:38 PM
Mastermind: holy crap this place still exists?
December 24, 2019, 09:33:09 PM
Fox: Even just plain Editor work can make some difference. = At least these forums are indexed on the Search engine. I was also curious about whether to um... go through all the topics on these forums and take all the important stuff out/placed into a folder for a bit of organization. Would be a bonus since if something ever happened to this forum, or if we ever wanted to start afresh again, it wouldn't be that difficult to do so.
December 24, 2019, 09:23:03 PM
Fox: One thing is for sure. This place has become completely dead. (Mostly because of Discord.)  = I don't think much will happen with this forum unless I, Salanewt, or someone else does a thing.
December 24, 2019, 09:18:05 PM
Fox: Probably not?
December 24, 2019, 06:51:08 PM
Luna_blade: I suppose this is the last Christmas of this forum? 
December 24, 2019, 06:50:51 PM
Luna_blade: Yay thanks for the coins
December 19, 2019, 04:39:45 AM
Fox: Okay, another thought... "gsmagic" could be the code name/project name... and "Golden Sun Magic" could be the more formal official name... (As in using both names.)  -  I still need to look into these other games as well... so who knows if it could be better to call it Camelot Magic if those should ever be supported to a decent standard.  Would probably be a long time from now, though. As I can be pretty lazy.
December 18, 2019, 10:01:39 PM
Foreclosure: gsmagic is fine
December 17, 2019, 05:44:32 PM
Fox: Also. I call my program "gsmagic" and not "GSMagic" =P (Not asking for correction/I being silly)... Had to call it something, so picked something short.  Maybe I should rename it to Golden Sun Magic later. *shrug*
December 17, 2019, 05:35:04 PM
Fox: (And "Golden Sun" instead of "GS" to reduce confusion that would likely not be there anyway... when "Golden Sun" doesn't take up much space to start with. (Imagine being new and thinking GS meant GameShark, or some other oddity. Ew.)) - All just thoughts...I'm still going with most of this not mattering that much, though.
December 17, 2019, 05:12:55 PM
Fox: "Misc. GS Hacking" = That name looks odd, so I'd probably just go with "Golden Sun Hacking"
December 17, 2019, 05:08:05 PM
Fox: I tempted to also suggest the Editors can go in the first category. Since the Editor is the reason this place exists in the first place. (I think.)
December 17, 2019, 04:53:19 PM
Fox: (combined = Not meant to be taken literally... but rather.... to generalize things more, since it apparently looks like we don't need the extra space no one is using.)
December 17, 2019, 04:48:49 PM
Fox: Worse still... we've only used those for Golden Sun content.... and there's not much there.
December 17, 2019, 04:45:53 PM
Fox: E.g. Maybe everything in "Assets & Discussion" could be combined with "Creative Works".... I don't feel like sound and art apply to general hacking anyway... that only comes into play when you have tools to insert them.
December 17, 2019, 04:40:26 PM
Fox: categories and/or forums
December 17, 2019, 04:36:48 PM
Fox: Everything else seems to be about right, though. Perhaps some categories could be combined(?), but doesn't really matter that much.
December 17, 2019, 04:33:03 PM
Fox: (I still think The Community section fits best at the bottom. =P)
December 15, 2019, 05:10:04 PM
Salanewt: Heya! I'm planning to get the demo up today, but if you can't wait then it's already available on the Discord.
December 15, 2019, 04:12:27 AM
Fox: (Then sell the badges on the Trade Center for a very high price... and give a lot of active people coins to buy them with, so they can basically transfer the coins to me if they want something... Gosh I could be a naughty hoarder. =P)
December 15, 2019, 04:06:19 AM
Fox: I'd buy up all the stock for each item too... but man... I think I'm too lazy for that. =P

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