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Lemuria Fountain is weird

Started by Plexa, 18, December, 2016, 09:36:46 PM

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Plexa

Can anyone explain this?
https://youtu.be/YrxQEaDx2uc

Two save states, same RN value, identical files. Exit/enter fountain and tossing medal yields different results. Despite everything being aligned otherwise.

The only thing that I can think of is the positioning of people outside of the fountain leads to inconsistent results... but as I mentioned both save states were generated from the same save file so I'm really confused.

This also happens on console for reference.

Update for more information:
What I'm doing here is clearing the title screen within a 0.1s window (~6frames) to get amongst a set of known seeds. I toss two lucky medals to work out what seed I'm on. Then advance the RNG using the nurse cap/save game to a particular RNG value. Then I use pound (which gets me to the RNG value seen in the video), exit/enter and that should give me the wild coat. But obviously I'm getting either the wild coat OR the crafted gloves.

It's 100% the exit/enter that is causing the discrepancy. Throwing another medal without exit/enter gives the same result from tossing the medal.

I gathered some data, and it might be that the original RNG seed plays a role somehow? Perhaps in distributing random movement NPCs in Lemuria? I'm not sure. I did get Wild Coat off my Fireman Pole/Potion seed and then Crafted Gloves off of Water of Life/Potion seed consistently (as far as I can tell) but it's a hard thing to test rigorously.

Daddy Poi's Oily Gorillas

#1
Interesting... I just want to make 100% sure before looking, but both save files have not obtained any items from the spring previously, correct? (Most likely...)
I'm asking because when you get an item, it becomes rarer until it gets to its rarest point. As explained in this topic: http://forum.goldensunhacking.net/index.php?topic=2574.0

If the 15 bytes at 0200037D are 100% the same in both files, then this is definitely worth looking into! Thanks!
Golden Sun Docs: Broken Seal - The Lost Age - Dark Dawn | Mario Sports Docs: Mario Golf & Mario Tennis | Misc. Docs
Refer to Yoshi's Lighthouse for any M&L hacking needs...

Sometimes I like to compare apples to oranges. (Figuratively) ... They are both fruits, but which one would you eat more? (If taken literally, I'd probably choose apples.)
Maybe it is over-analyzing, but it doesn't mean the information is useless.


The only GS Discord servers with significance are:
Golden Sun Hacking Community
GS Speedrunning
/r/Golden Sun
GS United Nations
Temple of Kraden

Can you believe how small the Golden Sun Community is?

2+2=5 Don't believe me? Those are rounded decimal numbers. Take that, flat earth theorists! :)

Plexa

#2
The bytes are different; so at least there is something traceable for me to look at.

Still, without exit/enter the items obtained are identical which is really weird.

EDIT: Looking at that other thread, looks like instead of the Wild Coat I'm getting the item immediately before it in the stack (crafted gloves). This is absolutely what is going on. Now to work out a way of not letting this mess me up :D thanks Fox - once again you save the day.

Daddy Poi's Oily Gorillas

#3
Cool. Sounds good. :)

You are welcome.

Oh, and there was one tiny little thing I couldn't figure out... "...in hopes that either ??? or golden sun hacking Fox Teawater..."
Golden Sun Docs: Broken Seal - The Lost Age - Dark Dawn | Mario Sports Docs: Mario Golf & Mario Tennis | Misc. Docs
Refer to Yoshi's Lighthouse for any M&L hacking needs...

Sometimes I like to compare apples to oranges. (Figuratively) ... They are both fruits, but which one would you eat more? (If taken literally, I'd probably choose apples.)
Maybe it is over-analyzing, but it doesn't mean the information is useless.


The only GS Discord servers with significance are:
Golden Sun Hacking Community
GS Speedrunning
/r/Golden Sun
GS United Nations
Temple of Kraden

Can you believe how small the Golden Sun Community is?

2+2=5 Don't believe me? Those are rounded decimal numbers. Take that, flat earth theorists! :)

Plexa

#4
Zetonegi :) https://twitter.com/ZetoNegi

He's done a ton of miracle stuff for GS2 (e.g. BRN manipulations for Serpent/Poseidon which involve using weaken/sour)

Daddy Poi's Oily Gorillas

#5
Oh, I see now. No wonder I couldn't make it out.
So he's the guy speed running the (J) game. Seems like it, yes....
Speaking of twitter *I checks to see what smea's doing on there.*
Golden Sun Docs: Broken Seal - The Lost Age - Dark Dawn | Mario Sports Docs: Mario Golf & Mario Tennis | Misc. Docs
Refer to Yoshi's Lighthouse for any M&L hacking needs...

Sometimes I like to compare apples to oranges. (Figuratively) ... They are both fruits, but which one would you eat more? (If taken literally, I'd probably choose apples.)
Maybe it is over-analyzing, but it doesn't mean the information is useless.


The only GS Discord servers with significance are:
Golden Sun Hacking Community
GS Speedrunning
/r/Golden Sun
GS United Nations
Temple of Kraden

Can you believe how small the Golden Sun Community is?

2+2=5 Don't believe me? Those are rounded decimal numbers. Take that, flat earth theorists! :)

Plexa

Yeah he does both versions. But he's been really focused on jp lately because it can be RNG manipulated the same way GS1 can (using the sleep mode function to have controlled RNG advance during the press start screen).

Daddy Poi's Oily Gorillas

#7
That sounds cool. So how much time (potentially) did the ability of RNG manupulation save? (Game Time wise.) ...

Hmmm....
QuoteZetonegi ‏@ZetoNegi May 21

One thing that only @TLPlexa might know the answer to is how the merc dinn in prox is determined, cause spritz is better than dew/mist
Hmm? That is certainly interesting. I'm guessing you already figured it out? (Or no?) ... It seems to be using argument r2=0x13 (Being the djinn of an element.) (So that's why we have djinn placeholders?)
For those four special djinn only (Ones using r2=0x13), the djinn you get, seem to be at 02002950? (1 byte per element.) Seems to be set on Party Reunion. (Tested by going to Shop Test:99) So your 99% is now a 100%?
It seems to be a random chance of the remaining GS1 djinn that you do not have. Using the GRN.

So...
-List all GS1 djinn / element that you don't have into a list...
-Randomly grab one from that list and store to 0x02002950 data.

I'm not sure if you would have a good application for that or not.
Golden Sun Docs: Broken Seal - The Lost Age - Dark Dawn | Mario Sports Docs: Mario Golf & Mario Tennis | Misc. Docs
Refer to Yoshi's Lighthouse for any M&L hacking needs...

Sometimes I like to compare apples to oranges. (Figuratively) ... They are both fruits, but which one would you eat more? (If taken literally, I'd probably choose apples.)
Maybe it is over-analyzing, but it doesn't mean the information is useless.


The only GS Discord servers with significance are:
Golden Sun Hacking Community
GS Speedrunning
/r/Golden Sun
GS United Nations
Temple of Kraden

Can you believe how small the Golden Sun Community is?

2+2=5 Don't believe me? Those are rounded decimal numbers. Take that, flat earth theorists! :)

Plexa

I'm not totally sure how much time it saves, in GS1 you can flee from every encounter taking (almost) only mandatory battles up to Venus lighthouse (where it becomes impossible to run in one turn). TLA you hit the problem of not being able to run much earlier so you have to manipulate fights for experience and whatnot. Still, I'd be surprised if it didn't have 30 minutes (+ Japanese text is faster so that always helps).

We did work out how the mercury djinn in prox is determined; its simply based off the RNG after the reunion cutscene as you point out. The problem is controlling the RNG through the reunion cutscene which is hard because its such a long cutscene and there are yen/no boxes to clear.

Instead of going for RNG djinn we just manipulate them at the start of the game. The old strat was using 11 Felix Cancels (clearing Felix's name 11 times when starting a new file) which didn't give Spritz. Zetonegi found a seed which has all the djinn he wants after 44 Felix Cancels. I found a seed suitable for what I want to do by cancelling Isaacs name twice, felix once, then isaac again. 

leaf

44 felix cancels... that's some dedication right there.

Imagine getting through the entire game up to the reunion when you realize "Oh whoops, I did 45 by accident."

[spoiler=quotes]
[9:00:50 PM] Randel Peltier: Ok...what did I do last night?
[9:01:19 PM] Kain: Something boring, repetitive, and lasted for about sixty seconds.
---
[10:45:08 AM] Salanewt: But yeah, the elemental phalluses are being... Stroked up by Saturos and co., and the energy will go towards... Mt. Muffin, where the Golden Climax will arise.
[7:28:42 PM] Salanewt: An added bonus is that Isaac and co. were trying to stop Saturos and co. because their beliefs state that Mt. Muffin should remain a virgin.
---
[9:54:21 PM] Randel Peltier: Guess the number in my head an you get to pick what I say. Number between 1-10
[9:54:28 PM] leaf: 11
[9:54:36 PM] Randel Peltier: @#$%!
---
[8:38:13 PM] Randel Peltier: Shes like this queen up on a pedastal that I have yet to court.
[8:38:29 PM] Kain: You've tried courting her.
[8:38:43 PM] leaf: and failed spectacularly
[8:38:44 PM] Randel Peltier: Ive tried...shes the best dating game ever.
---
[12:24:35 AM] Salanewt: I need to find a picture of a naked person to put on the Christmas tree next year.
---
[2:19:06 PM] Zeadra: wait... Rief's a guy???
---
[1:09:57 PM] Zeadra: well if you want to know if its a new effect or something weird, just check GS1, if side step is there maby it is the nimble dodge thing
[1:10:35 PM] Kioll: For once, you've contributed something useful.  o.O[/spoiler]

Daddy Poi's Oily Gorillas

#10
@44/45 = Yes, that is definitely a valid point... which raises the question on whether 44 should be optimized down to a smaller number to avoid room for error.

So next question is... can you still properly do the same speedrun without actually seeing the RNG numbers? With the goal of minimizing need to remember stuff/seeing whatever is not already in the game. )

Not sure if these would help any, but I mean ideas like: (For GRN...)
-One could look at NPC movement for cues.
-One could maybe use music for timing, etc.

..assuming that when you have a low or high number, getting the other number would be more likely. (Not sure, though.)
Golden Sun Docs: Broken Seal - The Lost Age - Dark Dawn | Mario Sports Docs: Mario Golf & Mario Tennis | Misc. Docs
Refer to Yoshi's Lighthouse for any M&L hacking needs...

Sometimes I like to compare apples to oranges. (Figuratively) ... They are both fruits, but which one would you eat more? (If taken literally, I'd probably choose apples.)
Maybe it is over-analyzing, but it doesn't mean the information is useless.


The only GS Discord servers with significance are:
Golden Sun Hacking Community
GS Speedrunning
/r/Golden Sun
GS United Nations
Temple of Kraden

Can you believe how small the Golden Sun Community is?

2+2=5 Don't believe me? Those are rounded decimal numbers. Take that, flat earth theorists! :)

leaf

@Fox: AFAIK, RNG abuse in golden sun largely comes down to simply quickly clearing the title screen with precise timing. After that, most RNG manipulations come down to battle events or using a field psynergy a certain number of times. Towns are extremely difficult to reliably manipulate the RNG in, since it consumes RNs for the NPC movement, resulting in extremely erratic random numbers.
[spoiler=quotes]
[9:00:50 PM] Randel Peltier: Ok...what did I do last night?
[9:01:19 PM] Kain: Something boring, repetitive, and lasted for about sixty seconds.
---
[10:45:08 AM] Salanewt: But yeah, the elemental phalluses are being... Stroked up by Saturos and co., and the energy will go towards... Mt. Muffin, where the Golden Climax will arise.
[7:28:42 PM] Salanewt: An added bonus is that Isaac and co. were trying to stop Saturos and co. because their beliefs state that Mt. Muffin should remain a virgin.
---
[9:54:21 PM] Randel Peltier: Guess the number in my head an you get to pick what I say. Number between 1-10
[9:54:28 PM] leaf: 11
[9:54:36 PM] Randel Peltier: @#$%!
---
[8:38:13 PM] Randel Peltier: Shes like this queen up on a pedastal that I have yet to court.
[8:38:29 PM] Kain: You've tried courting her.
[8:38:43 PM] leaf: and failed spectacularly
[8:38:44 PM] Randel Peltier: Ive tried...shes the best dating game ever.
---
[12:24:35 AM] Salanewt: I need to find a picture of a naked person to put on the Christmas tree next year.
---
[2:19:06 PM] Zeadra: wait... Rief's a guy???
---
[1:09:57 PM] Zeadra: well if you want to know if its a new effect or something weird, just check GS1, if side step is there maby it is the nimble dodge thing
[1:10:35 PM] Kioll: For once, you've contributed something useful.  o.O[/spoiler]

Daddy Poi's Oily Gorillas

#12
Well, doesn't it take time to Save and Reset, though? So if we could figure out any tricks that aren't obvious, then one could potentially reduce the number of resets. (Probably, but I don't know how many resets are even in a single speed-run.) But that is only theorectical. I think random numbers from NPC movement are periodical... (I'm assuming they're not being generated until they actually move, right?  But I haven't checked this much.... So might need to make sure.)

Any moment where it stops for a short bit, makes me wonder.... (I looked at Contigo.)

1, 2, 3, short pause, 1, 2, 3, short pause, etc. at the entrance... so it may depend on where you are.
Even in front of the house where you get Isaac's party... there is some short pausing. But I think it is more 1,2,3,4, short pause, ... repeat. It can be a little hard to tell, though... but there are short pauses. A little too short for my liking. ... But I'd have to test some things to know if it matters or not. (Mainly though, this would only solve like... ~10% of the theory?)

If I can get from the entrance and through that door... and get the same random number every time = Then we would have abused the RNG... But whether it is useful and/or practical is another story.
Golden Sun Docs: Broken Seal - The Lost Age - Dark Dawn | Mario Sports Docs: Mario Golf & Mario Tennis | Misc. Docs
Refer to Yoshi's Lighthouse for any M&L hacking needs...

Sometimes I like to compare apples to oranges. (Figuratively) ... They are both fruits, but which one would you eat more? (If taken literally, I'd probably choose apples.)
Maybe it is over-analyzing, but it doesn't mean the information is useless.


The only GS Discord servers with significance are:
Golden Sun Hacking Community
GS Speedrunning
/r/Golden Sun
GS United Nations
Temple of Kraden

Can you believe how small the Golden Sun Community is?

2+2=5 Don't believe me? Those are rounded decimal numbers. Take that, flat earth theorists! :)

Plexa

#13
re 44/45; I told Zeto about Isaac cancelling and how that can change the RNG in a different way to just Felix cancelling but he never listened to me xD my method gets all the important djinn but Jenna gets a worse agility roll than before (which is annoying but manageable).

With regard to RNG abuse, we can get pretty consistently within 0.1s on the title screen so that narrows things down to 6 frames to look for. For the fountain we traditionally throw a few coins to establish where the RNG is (2 usually suffices) and then work out a method from there - although I've been using the Nurse cap to advance the RNG until it breaks to work out where the RNG is (which is how the original question in this topic arose - in hind sight i should have advanced the rng before throwing coins lol). In Yallam we need to manipulate for the spirit ring. There's one sailor NPC between Sunshine and where you come from (either sanctum or entrance) and we read his movement to know how to manipulate for the spirit ring (although I'm not happy with this method, there's a lot of memorisation needed here and I'm sure there's a better way to do it but haven't quite worked that out yet).  

It's probably possible to manipulate Isaac's party djinn consistently, but its far easier to do it when you're creating a new file rather than in game.

Daddy Poi's Oily Gorillas

#14
@1 = Okay, sounds cool... But that Agility roll, though? What would be the better option had you sacrificed a single djinni? (Or up to 2-4?) (Assuming the RNG is nice enough to you?  And assuming if there is a consistent way to generate those in-game djinn.)

I'd have to see exactly how wide those windows would be... given that it may be possible that consecutive numbers /could/ result in the same thing. (No idea, it depends.) I imagine it is basically a 1 in 2 or 1 in 3, depending on djinn distribution... so you never know... Those odds are neat when you consider a lot of other things that are [supposed to be] rarer.

@Memorization: How about an OCD-like "Walk this path to get to the door? " (Sort of... but that's only if you know where the RNG is at.) .. Hmm... Might work best if there's a wide enough window. (Like if multiple random numbers result in the same thing.)
Golden Sun Docs: Broken Seal - The Lost Age - Dark Dawn | Mario Sports Docs: Mario Golf & Mario Tennis | Misc. Docs
Refer to Yoshi's Lighthouse for any M&L hacking needs...

Sometimes I like to compare apples to oranges. (Figuratively) ... They are both fruits, but which one would you eat more? (If taken literally, I'd probably choose apples.)
Maybe it is over-analyzing, but it doesn't mean the information is useless.


The only GS Discord servers with significance are:
Golden Sun Hacking Community
GS Speedrunning
/r/Golden Sun
GS United Nations
Temple of Kraden

Can you believe how small the Golden Sun Community is?

2+2=5 Don't believe me? Those are rounded decimal numbers. Take that, flat earth theorists! :)

Plexa

The djinn/agility thing can always be redone from new game file screen. The only notable ones are Granite, Ground, Flash, Spritz, Kite, Zephyr and to a lesser extent Vine and Breeze are nice. We also prefer 5 jupiter djinn instead of 4 because jupiter summons are the best. Since its only 6 djinn its extremely manageable.

Regarding RNG manip, this was my best effort for spirit ring; https://www.twitch.tv/tl_plexa/v/108669429

Its much easier than reading NPC movement where you need to memorise 6 different seeds to make it work. Here you just get the encounter and look up the RN offset (via attack cancelling) to get the right RN seed.

Daddy Poi's Oily Gorillas

#16
Just those six? Alright. Makes sense.
Flint and Fizz should always be in Isaac's party, I believe...
I suppose Vine/Breeze could possibly be the sacrificed djinn if that's the difference between a better stat roll.

Sounds cool.

Meanwhile, I watched your World Map OOB video on getting to Mars Lighthouse early... the other day... Pretty impressive... eh? I just wish that one of these glitches had a reliable way of editing memory somehow, but still not seeing it yet.... (Especially one to turn on debug mode. ;) That'd basically allow a speed-run to skip all of Mars Lighthouse, pretty much. If that glitch theoretically happened to be in Mars Lighthouse before Force is needed, then this World Map OOB glitch could be useful? Probably should rewatch your video, though... and compare times and such.)


@ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWQGHxtRk6A = Yes, Santums are set when you first enter a town, I believe? So be happy that's the first map to the town. :)
Golden Sun Docs: Broken Seal - The Lost Age - Dark Dawn | Mario Sports Docs: Mario Golf & Mario Tennis | Misc. Docs
Refer to Yoshi's Lighthouse for any M&L hacking needs...

Sometimes I like to compare apples to oranges. (Figuratively) ... They are both fruits, but which one would you eat more? (If taken literally, I'd probably choose apples.)
Maybe it is over-analyzing, but it doesn't mean the information is useless.


The only GS Discord servers with significance are:
Golden Sun Hacking Community
GS Speedrunning
/r/Golden Sun
GS United Nations
Temple of Kraden

Can you believe how small the Golden Sun Community is?

2+2=5 Don't believe me? Those are rounded decimal numbers. Take that, flat earth theorists! :)

Plexa

Well while we're on the subject of almost game breaking things I may as well complain about the removal of the infinite climb glitch in GS2. In GS1 if you press Start (or any button) on frame 13 after pressing up to climb something you'll open the save menu, allowing you to save/reload and elevate your Z coordinate. Here it is in action: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAN7Z2WfyxI&t=59m24s

For some Camelot patched it in GS2 so that this no longer works. The glitch in GS1 is only used in Altin and doesn't do very much. In GS2 it could be used all over the place (precisely anytime there's a log at the top of a staircase that needs to be moved, you could ICG to elevate your Z coordinate and simply move it out of the way).

Daddy Poi's Oily Gorillas

#18
So many field glitches... and are there any battle glitches?

And that ladder thing. D: ... Well, it's not like it'd give you Debug menu anyway, unless you're crazy lucky.


https://youtu.be/Dy_Xq75tsaM?t=9m36s = Haha.. Looks like someone was having fun.
Golden Sun Docs: Broken Seal - The Lost Age - Dark Dawn | Mario Sports Docs: Mario Golf & Mario Tennis | Misc. Docs
Refer to Yoshi's Lighthouse for any M&L hacking needs...

Sometimes I like to compare apples to oranges. (Figuratively) ... They are both fruits, but which one would you eat more? (If taken literally, I'd probably choose apples.)
Maybe it is over-analyzing, but it doesn't mean the information is useless.


The only GS Discord servers with significance are:
Golden Sun Hacking Community
GS Speedrunning
/r/Golden Sun
GS United Nations
Temple of Kraden

Can you believe how small the Golden Sun Community is?

2+2=5 Don't believe me? Those are rounded decimal numbers. Take that, flat earth theorists! :)

Plexa

Yeah no battle glitches (other than consequences of skipping mia - after colosso the game forces a fourth character in your party but since you never acquired mia it just repeats the first character in your party). Which is actually very interesting given that there are overworld glitches.

The video you linked actually has an explanation lol. Entering an area as Felix or the boat changes the sprite when you enter an area. For instance, if you enter Sea of Time as Felix (instead of the boat) you can walk around the area as Felix (without collision) and in the top left the boat sprite is just hanging out. If you enter an area as the boat in an area without the boat sprite in the top left it just end up walking around as whatever the equivalent sprite is for that area. The lash pole for Yampi, that random Daila guy in Daila and so on.