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[RELEASE] Golden Sun Reloaded

Started by Caledor, 22, December, 2016, 03:56:07 PM

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2dgirlfan

Is the transfer screen supposed to have Isaac with 1/0 HP and PP?

Caledor

Quote from: 2dgirlfan on 06, June, 2017, 08:42:57 PM
Is the transfer screen supposed to have Isaac with 1/0 HP and PP?
You're probably seeing this on a non-patched game. Since classes aren't in the same slot as the original, it might happen that characters have the wrong index for their class. And if the index points to an empty class slot, where stat multipliers are all 0s, this happens.

It's a non issue though. Stats are immediately corrected if you force a class refresh by messing with the character's djinn

Baransu

I never really noticed that TLA was a shop behind the level average until when you made the shop edits, definitely a good idea when it comes balancing the game. Shifting most of the relevant physical skills to multipliers reminds me of Dark Dawn in a way, although now I wonder how mages will stack up because near the end of the TBS patch, I was resorting to having everyone spam the attack command because spells still couldn't beat unleashes when it came down to it.

Caledor

It wasn't an issue cause enemies in TLA have always been A LOT weaker then their same level counterpart from TBS. The lv 18 Red Demon from Gabomba (strongest here) has lower Atk and Def than the lv 18 Armored Rat (nobody) found near tolbi for example. Now that enemies in TLA have caught up, it became a necessity.

@Spells: the main issue with spells is that they don't age well, cause the base power makes of a huge portion of the actual damage dealt. Maybe I can come up with something better than the PP multiplier

VardenSalad

You could tier the bonus from the PP multiplier. It sits at something like (X/1024) flat now, correct? Maybe starting at something like 250 PP or 300 PP, the bonus could start applying at (X/512) for each Psynergy Point over the set amount?

Obviously, the numbers could be changed.
Never forget why you started playing.

Caledor

Sadly tiers won't work. They create scenarios where, when crossing the tier boundary, it either becomes suddenly worse or suddenly better. I want to avoid discontinuities in the function.

ATM i'm considering the possibility of making part of the pp multiplier additive or throwing in the level of the character or other PP related things.

Baransu

It might be easier to do some general testing by comparing physical damage vs spell damage in various break point areas so Chestbeaters, Aqua Hydra, Poseidon, Jupiter Lighthouse and Mars Lighthouse and seeing where spells start falling off and the percentage difference at that too. That way you can create a modifier to kind of bridge the difference so that the gap isn't as high.

In my hack, while I am using the Int patch instead of the multiplier, I opted for spells to be consistent over time damage compared to the burst damage from Unleashes, although this method requires you to drop the unleash rate cap to about 55-65% or so to keep it from getting out of hand. If you're keeping the 99% unleash rate cap then you'll probably need to drastically bump up damage to keep up with constant 2.2x and 2.6x attacks going off each turn.

VardenSalad

Cal, I'm suggesting each new point over the mark follows a new scaling, not the whole thing.

For example, you have 350 PP. The first 250 PP always scale at (X/1024). The remaining 100 PP scale at (X/512). It wouldn't change all the earlier scaling.

It may not work well regardless, but I at least want you to know what I'm pitching.
Never forget why you started playing.

Caledor

#188
Quote from: Baransu on 07, June, 2017, 09:37:54 AM
It might be easier to do some general testing by comparing physical damage vs spell damage in various break point areas so Chestbeaters, Aqua Hydra, Poseidon, Jupiter Lighthouse and Mars Lighthouse and seeing where spells start falling off and the percentage difference at that too. That way you can create a modifier to kind of bridge the difference so that the gap isn't as high.

That much is certain.

QuoteCal, I'm suggesting each new point over the mark follows a new scaling, not the whole thing.
Oh, then it's fine, but multipliers won't help reducing the gap you feel between one spell and the next one. I think i need an additive constant.

Thanks for all your inputs though, i didn't expect all this interest on the matter.

And yeah, i have some work to do on endgame unleashes

Baransu

If you're going to use an additive modifier, I'd probably recommend using your level as a base. Dullahan is at about 50 or so, therefore a level modifier would at bare minimum add 50 damage and at maximum 150. I wouldn't recommend anything higher since then spells would be way too strong in the eastern sea/early western sea period when your physical characters are really coming into their own.

Caledor

#190
I've considered many things but i think i've figured it out. Might as well share it with you in advance since the discussion has already started.

For spells: the additive modifier will be MaxPP/8. It's quite big since my lv12 sheba has 99 PP, so i'll have to reduce the original base power (but it's a good thing cause once again the gap with warriors widens). This number is added directly to BP so it's factored in the Power/Res calculation and the PP multiplier itself.

I won't touch anything else in the formula and adjust base power of spells from there with a batch of saves set at each 5 levels or so.

Megiddo will probably go down to x2.4, the Herculean Axe/Caladbolg to x2.2, Darksword/Alecto to x2.1. Excalibur/Tisiphone are both x2.2 inherently (with added base damage 0) cause that's the weighted multiplier they'll use on average.

Another thing I'm gonna reduce is the endgame level, both for Dullahan and the last learned spell. Mid fourties for both maybe? Or dullahan to 45 and spells 42 or so... i don't really know.

All the things combined here are for the following goals:
a) obviously give the same offensive potential to both mages and warriors
b) reduce the gap between one spell and the next
c) mages won't need to hurry to the next spell tier cause they're falling behind

VardenSalad

I think of mages acting on a kind of curve between getting a new spell and jumping ahead of warriors on power and not yet having one and declining over a number of levels. Obviously, the idea of making the mage curve flat is impossible, but I don't see an issue with them spiking and fading twice over the course of the game as long as they end up sort of equal near the end (likely due to single target spells).

The sort of +/- on mages is that the AoE-ness of enemies doesn't continuously scale over the course of the game. You're not fighting 19 enemies and having a warrior overkilling 3 at a time but a mage taking out 10. When the majority of the game and the battle system is set up to fight 3 enemies most of the time, warriors beat 1/3-2/3 of the opposition into the ground. The best mage spells, in effect, turn them into warriors that scale with PP and ele power instead of Atk (and ele power).
Never forget why you started playing.

leaf

Rather than mess with every ability's base power, couldn't you just make the modifier something like...

MaxPP/8 - 12

That breaks even at 96 PP, thus leaving early game basically as is (slightly nerfed for warriors). Just making it part of the formula makes it so you don't have to do nearly as much grunt work.
[spoiler=quotes]
[9:00:50 PM] Randel Peltier: Ok...what did I do last night?
[9:01:19 PM] Kain: Something boring, repetitive, and lasted for about sixty seconds.
---
[10:45:08 AM] Salanewt: But yeah, the elemental phalluses are being... Stroked up by Saturos and co., and the energy will go towards... Mt. Muffin, where the Golden Climax will arise.
[7:28:42 PM] Salanewt: An added bonus is that Isaac and co. were trying to stop Saturos and co. because their beliefs state that Mt. Muffin should remain a virgin.
---
[9:54:21 PM] Randel Peltier: Guess the number in my head an you get to pick what I say. Number between 1-10
[9:54:28 PM] leaf: 11
[9:54:36 PM] Randel Peltier: @#$%!
---
[8:38:13 PM] Randel Peltier: Shes like this queen up on a pedastal that I have yet to court.
[8:38:29 PM] Kain: You've tried courting her.
[8:38:43 PM] leaf: and failed spectacularly
[8:38:44 PM] Randel Peltier: Ive tried...shes the best dating game ever.
---
[12:24:35 AM] Salanewt: I need to find a picture of a naked person to put on the Christmas tree next year.
---
[2:19:06 PM] Zeadra: wait... Rief's a guy???
---
[1:09:57 PM] Zeadra: well if you want to know if its a new effect or something weird, just check GS1, if side step is there maby it is the nimble dodge thing
[1:10:35 PM] Kioll: For once, you've contributed something useful.  o.O[/spoiler]

Caledor

#193
Quote from: VardenSalad on 07, June, 2017, 05:53:26 PM
I think of mages acting on a kind of curve between getting a new spell and jumping ahead of warriors on power and not yet having one and declining over a number of levels. Obviously, the idea of making the mage curve flat is impossible, but I don't see an issue with them spiking and fading twice over the course of the game as long as they end up sort of equal near the end (likely due to single target spells).

The sort of +/- on mages is that the AoE-ness of enemies doesn't continuously scale over the course of the game. You're not fighting 19 enemies and having a warrior overkilling 3 at a time but a mage taking out 10. When the majority of the game and the battle system is set up to fight 3 enemies most of the time, warriors beat 1/3-2/3 of the opposition into the ground. The best mage spells, in effect, turn them into warriors that scale with PP and ele power instead of Atk (and ele power).

I concur with both statements. Spiking and fading isn't an issue and won't disappear, it will just be smoother.

@leaf: very nice idea but it doesn't save me from much grunt work. Actually, spells in levels 8-12 are slightly OP so i want to check them anyway, but i like the concept and I might still use it... We'll see. Thanks ;)

Rolina

That's certainly one way of looking at mages... but the way I see it is that each new spell is basically akin to a warrior equipping a new weapon.  Mages tend to get 6-9 weapons total, while warriors get a new one every 20 minutes.  Thing is, warriors can swing their weapons for free, so the problem of balance doesn't just show itself with rate of staggered upgrades, but also with the scale of cost.  I'd argue dynamic stats as well, but your mods address those already.

Caledor

#195
Casting Bramble Card might currently freeze your game cause i messed up one byte.

It's already fixed for next release but if someone wants to try out the latest changes to the Pierrot class, here's the fix: at 00121645, change 2B to 1B. Sorry for the hassle

@Role: Thinking back, in the original game mages growth was almost identical to a staircase function: only the +5 power from a new djinn could slightly improve spells between steps.

VardenSalad

I wish there was a way to textually show the base power of spells from the status screen or something similar. There's space in the text box underneath the line that gives the description of the spell ("Attack with wild plants", "...bolts from the heavens") but I have no idea how to access it and my rudimentary experiments just garbled other text.
Never forget why you started playing.

Caledor

#197
Quote from: VardenSalad on 10, June, 2017, 04:11:43 PM
I wish there was a way to textually show the base power of spells from the status screen or something similar. There's space in the text box underneath the line that gives the description of the spell ("Attack with wild plants", "...bolts from the heavens") but I have no idea how to access it and my rudimentary experiments just garbled other text.

Actually there is already text in that space but the english version is bugged so it doesn't appear.
It should show "A:Items L/R:Switch characters" like the other screens of the status menu.

Here's the unbugged italian version

VardenSalad

Your text at the bottom showing usability is different from the English version as well. Yours is more useful because it shows all the usabilities at once.

No clue where to stick a short blurb in base power or scaling noe that I know that space is taken up.
Never forget why you started playing.

bpat

#199
I played TBS 1.0, TLA 1.3, and TBS 1.55 and found this to be a very well made mod. I have some feedback about difficulty and character/class balance. I'm not sure how much has changed in 1.6 but most of this should still apply.

First and possibly most importantly, Flash seems to reduce non-physical damage by far more than 66%. Deadbeard's Freeze Prism and Spark Plasma and Fusion Dragon's Outer Space were all consistently dealing under 30 damage to all characters, some of which had no boosts to the relevant resistances, when Flash was active. However, Deadbeard's Sweep still hit for around 160 on the primary target when Flash was active (and Deadbeard under 2x Impact), which leads me to believe that Flash still reduces elemental damage by 90% but physical damage by less. This essentially trivialized the endgame of TBS; I didn't even need lvl27 for Break against Deadbeard as long as he didn't use Sweep four times in a row or something because his Freeze Prism and Spark Plasma would do nothing on my Flash turns. Saturos, Menardi, and the Fusion Dragon were even easier since they didn't have anything like Sweep. Rotating Flash and Ground and giving PP regen gear to your healer makes your party all but invulnerable.

Another issue is that there is no significant benefit to being in a mage class over a warrior class unless the character will spam heals, especially in boss battles. Mage classes usually have higher PP and agility at the cost of HP, attack, and defense, but agility is mostly irrelevant against bosses unless the character is a healer and warrior classes' psynergy does comparable damage to mage classes' psynergy with the only difference being max PP. This means that warriors can act as mages when the situation calls for it, but mages can never be effective warriors because short swords and maces are worse than long swords and axes for most of the game. At least against Deadbeard and the final bosses, Ivan ended up being by far my weakest party member because Shine Plasma against single targets is about as strong as basic attacks and Ragnarok from Isaac or Garet but at a high PP cost. In fact I probably could have stuck all my +criticals gear on Mia to have Drown unleash outdamage spamming Glacier. What I'm getting at is in boss battles, attack Psynergy other than Ragnarok/Heat Wave/etc is very weak so casters are relegated to healing (Mia) or using utility Djinn like Breeze, Kite, and Flash (Ivan).

I didn't finish TLA 1.3 but I got to the Flame Dragons. I actually like the early Djinn imbalance since it encourages experimenting with varied class setups. I found giving Venus Djinn to Jenna and Mercury Djinn to Felix while leaving Sheba in her default class was very effective. This is definitely the harder of the two games, especially around Yampi Desert and Gondowan before Piers, but since the shops are adjusted in 1.6 it should be better. Another reason it's harder is the Djinn are way weaker than in TBS. You don't get Shade until around level 21 and not having Granite made boss battles much harder. It is not an exaggeration to say Flash, Shade, Granite, Ground, and Petra are the best Djinn in the game, with the only comparable ones being Ether, Luff, and Kite. Just like with Ivan in TBS, Sheba ended up being the party's weak link, but her Boon and Punishment psynergy made her relevant in boss battles beyond utility Djinn.

Edit: Just started TLA 1.6 and Yampi Desert is still ridiculously hard. The Jupiter Djinn can easily bop my level 9 Jenna from max because it gets two turns. I feel like I need to grind to level 11 or so to take on that zone which is annoying since I never had to grind in TBS.