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[RELEASE] Golden Sun Reloaded

Started by Caledor, 22, December, 2016, 03:56:07 PM

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Maxipotter

Oh, that makes sense for Archon, I'm just reaching that point it the game where EPAs begin to have added effects so I'm not all that familiar with these effects. Also I don't use debuffs much since they tend fail me regularily

Both the spread sheet and the editor (at least on my 1.71a) show Holy Knight to have Ply-Wish-Revive, maybe you are confusing with the two-elemental Protector that has similar stats and functionality? And I think the low speed is there so that the heals come in between the enemy's multiple attacks

Average Wind Seer

#521
I checked, and yeah you're right. My bad.
Though for the other Warriors to be in the Paladin Class, they need 5 :MercuryDjinni:, which puts their Mercury Power at about the same. Not to mention Caledor nerfed how much Elemental Power boosts Healing spells, so Piers' two whole points above, say, Paladin Garet is negligible.

the Debuff Psynergies are still crap, honestly. They fail too often and fade too fast to be worth using (even the MT versions).

EDIT:
So in an earlier version of Reloaded, I toyed around with Jonin (used Garet) and General to see how well they function as a hybrid, aaaaaanndd... They don't work too well as Hybrids, at least, not to the extent Fury does. (I can't really call Valkyrie a hybrid since she only has one Base Damage Psynergy, and behaves more like Piers' Destroyer) I think replacing General's Ice and Ray Psynergies with the next Psynergy up in base damage (e.g. Ray -> Whirlwind?) would help him, and both could do with a higher PP multiplier. Both Piers and Jonin Garet did well over twice the damage their Base Damage psynergies could do with their EPAs, which kind of diminishes the whole point of them being hybrid classes. I tested them on enemies around Prox, by the way.

at the same time, I took a closer look at Fury with Ivan (with Cursed Mage equipment). He doesn't do as much damage with Rolling Fire as he does with his Base Damage Psynergies, however, the difference between the two isn't anywhere near as drastic as General's and Jonin's damage difference between their EPAs and Base Damage Psynergies.

I think buffing General's and Jonin's MaxPP multiplier would go a long way (along with upgrading General's Ice and Ray psynergies), and adding Endgame Venus and Jupiter Maces. The Hagbone Mace comes close to endgame Jupiter, but is very noticeably weaker than the Rising Mace, so buffing that to be closer in power with the Rising Mace would be very very nice for General and Jonin.

I'm glad I went and checked my notes about Forging Items, because I had forgotten that the Millennium Helm, Cosmos Shield, and Xylion Armor gave very nice boosts to help out the Warriors' Hybrid Classes. though, would it be possible to buff the Cosmos Shield to also give Venus Power & Resist boosts so General benefits just as much from it as Jonin does?

EDIT 2:
oh wow never mind about them not working as Hybrids. I equipped them with the armors mentioned above, and they've closed a significant amount of the damage gap between their strongest Base Damage psynergies and their EPAs. General could still benefit from having an endgame Venus Mace and having Ice and Ray upgraded, along with a Venus equivalent to the Cosmos Shield. I don't see why Jonin should be stuck with Carpet Bomb when it's just a slightly weaker Supernova. Why not replace Carpet Bomb with Supernova, and get rid of Carpet Bomb? I assume getting rid of Carpet Bomb would free up a slot for you to make a new Psynergy?

Maxipotter

#522
LOL I tried to go fight Star Magician right after Isaac's party joined. I got my @#$ handed to me in a plate. So I guess I'll come back latter. :Sweat:

On the Buffs to General: You say you want to change Ice for a higher psynergy, but Ice already has the third highest Base Power (after Frost Card and Prism), if you were to switch it for Cool you'd be losing power (and gaining range). Unless you want to give him Prism? Ray isn't all that weak, it's average but I could see it upgraded to Whirlwind to add a bit more damage and range.

On Jonin: I'd argue Jonin is actually too strong right now having the highest PP, ATK and AGI modifiers available for Felix, Isaac and Garet as well as good EPAs, the only (so far) MT EPA, Thunder Clap being really close to Plasma and Punji being a bit further away but still second in damage after Gaia, while also having access to buffs Impact and Ward. If you were to change anything I would make them more psynergy oriented by decreasing the ATK multiplier a bit, then you could buff the PP or psynergies freely.

EDIT: Shouldn't Shogun have the highest ATK multiplier in the first place? Lava Shower, Rockfall and the debuffs are seldom useful, it has no other utility. It's only role is to spam unleashes or EPAs and it's not even the best at that it's wierd

Average Wind Seer

#523
Huh. I really should check the new base powers for Psynergies. I thought Cool was stronger than Ice lol :Sweat:

As for Jonin's and General's statlines, after looking back over their PP Multipliers, yeah they don't need any stat changes. However, they could really benefit from an Endgame Venus Mace, a substantial buff to the Hagbone Mace to be better suited for endgame content, and a Venus Cosmos Shield for General.

I personally think Carpet Bomb, Rock Slide, and Lava Bath, should all be removed, since their animations are copy/pasted from Starburst, Gaia, and Volcano respectively, and don't add anything to the classes they're found on that other psynergies of similar base power couldn't.

EDIT:
yeah, why does Jonin have a 170% Attack multiplier, but Warlord only has 160%? It makes no sense and throws away any reason to use Warlord. As it is, Jonin is outright the BEST class for Isaac, Garet, and Felix. There is no reason to use Warlord (or any other Tri-Elemental Class of these three) when Jonin is as strong as it is (also please switch out Liquifier for Planetary or Plume Edge for Diamond Berg on Warlord).

EDIT 2:
Here's a little pro-tip for everyone.
With the glitch of Stat-Debuffing Djinn adding an extra RN value, Mud and Vine are invaluable for RNG Methods against enemies faster than your character doing the killing blow (assuming the enemies aren't weak to Venus). Mud and Vine normally add +1RN per enemy, and the glitch makes them equal an attack psynergy (on non-Venus Weak enemies). I was able to rig a Crystal Rod to drop earlier than I should've been able to, thanks to Mud.

EDIT3:
Why the ever loving f*** does the Serpent have an instant death attack?
>Serpent uses Mighty Press!
>Felix takes 1 Damage! (from full HP)
>Felix is downed!
Remove that damn instant death crap from this boss.
This boss is already more than enough of a pain in the butt with AoE Poison, Black Blizzard saying "screw your defense buffs!", and it being able to use Potent Cure (it used it twice in the same turn several times in this battle). It. Does. Not. Need. Instant. Death.

bpat

Jonin absolutely doesn't need any buffs since it is tied with Chaos Lord for the highest attack stat. They're not supposed to be hybrids, they're supposed to stack crit and attack stuff with Psynergy as a secondary option when AoE or a specific element is needed. They seem like bad hybrids because they are bad hybrids, as that isn't their role. The warrior classes with lower attack stats are better options for hybrid setups.

Average Wind Seer

#525
plot twist, my dude:
Caledor specifically modified Jonin (and crafted General) to be a Warrior-Mage hybrid. Though he made Jonin incredibly unbalanced by giving it a 170% Atk modifier (while Warlord only has 160% for some reason) in addition to a 170% MaxPP modifier and the highest agility modifier available to Isaac, Garet, and Felix.

To fix Jonin, I suggest swapping its Attack Modifier with Warlord's, and getting rid of Carpet Bomb, replacing it with the Mars Psynergy closest to Carpet Bomb in base power, even if it means downgrading.

Jonin being unbalanced aside, both Jonin and General perform wonderfully as hybrid classes once you give them the Millennium Helm and Xylion Armor (and Cosmos Shield for Jonin. General needs a Venus equivalent to that shield.) They jumped up from doing about 260 with their strongest Base Damage Psynergies to doing 380-400 on the center target. I do hope Cal makes an Endgame Venus Mace & Venus Cosmos Shield for General, and buffs the Hagbone Mace for Jonin (and rebalances Jonin's stat mods).

Caledor

#526
Jonin has Z-tier defenses. That's why he can afford that attack stat: because as far as warriors go, he has the durability of a wet tissue. -20% HP and -15% def over the chaos lord is no joke. Warlord and Shogun are MUCH more well rounded, especially when atk cap becomes a factor. He is a hybrid and can go either way but i can see why it's easier to stick to the warrior side.

Further power buffs for Jonin and General are not needed: I already balanced them, each warrior can gain 60-65 power in each a single element.

Average Wind Seer

-20% HP and -15% defense isn't any blow at all to keep Jonin balanced when Dual-Wishing is a thing, along with the fact that a lot of endgame enemies use Base Damage Psynergies (at least, I assume they're base damage Psynergies).

At Lv.47 with Warrior's Helm, Valkyrie Mail, Ninja Sandals, Running Shirt, Riot Gloves, Sol Blade, and Sol Ring, Jonin Garet clocks in with 926HP, 329PP, 693Attack, 331Defense, 343Agility, and 20Luck.
Meanwhile Chaos Lord Garet has 1025HP, 263PP, 695Attack, 368Defense, 314Agility, and 16Luck
Yeah I dunno about you, but that 20% MaxHP and 15% Defense less sure is looking like a joke because that is one sturdy wet tissue.

And let's be real here, not many people will be grinding enough to hit stat caps. Jonin is unbalanced, plain and simple.

+60-65 to each element? What equipment combination does that use? Unbalanced Mods aside, Jonin still has an unfair advantage over General by having Hagbone Mace (which should have its Attack Score buffed to be suitable to endgame content) and the Cosmos Shield. General doesn't have any Venus Mace at endgame or a Venus Equivalent to the Cosmos Shield. This pushes Jonin even further to being incredibly unbalanced, and the best warrior class.

Caledor

Quote from: Average Wind Seer on 21, February, 2019, 10:40:11 AM
And let's be real here, not many people will be grinding enough to hit stat caps.

Impact. 666 is enough to hit the cap

Average Wind Seer

#529
Okay, that makes sense and works unless the boss you're fighting uses Break. and even then, Jonin's still better than Chaos Lord and Warlord. Its huge Agility modifier ensures that Jonin will go earlier in the turn, and its sizable PP Pool will let it throw out its EPAs without rest for far more turns than Chaos Lord and Warlord, before needing a PP Refill through Ether, Tinder, or a Psy Crystal.

EDIT:
By the way, I thought of a way to make Ker's Weight actually worth using with a Cursed Mage build.

Why not give Infidel a Venus Fume Psynergy in place of Punishment? It could be stronger than Punishment but weaker than Call Dullahan, further incentivizing people to use Infidel over Guardian. It could use the graphics from the Growth series (recolored, if possible) which would work, since Punishment uses the Ray series' graphics.

EDIT 2:
Nerf Poseidon. Break, self-healing, a powerful ST attack that can reduce the party member to 1HP, AND a powerful party-wide attack that can cause INSTANT DEATH TO MULTIPLE PARTY MEMBERS is wayyyyy too much for this point of the game where your options are extremely limited. Even with Master Miko Jenna and Savant Sheba dual-wishing, Poseidon effortlessly tears through the party, and Watery Grave can easily just outright say "f*** you" and cause instant death to two or more party members.

bpat

No bosses deserve nerfing. Poseidon is hard but not unreasonable since you have revive Djinn and Shade at that point. If anything, bosses tend to be too easy on average and Poseidon is an exception. He's difficult but absolutely manageable without needing to grind.

Average Wind Seer

I'm at Lv.27 and Poseidon is incredibly unfair. Ocean's Fist does about 200+ damage to any character when not reducing their HP to one, and Watery Graves deals about 160+ damage per party member, along with a chance to inflict instant death on multiple characters. That is simply unfair to any team, especially considering the fact that Poseidon gets three actions per turn. Jenna, Piers, and Felix have about 450MaxHP and Sheba is at 350-ish MaxHP, so getting hit with three 160+ to 200+ damage attacks makes short work of the party.

Maximum Defense and Resist buffs bring Poseidon's attacks down to a manageable 98-ish damage per attack, but it still adds up very quickly thanks to three actions per turn. And let's not forget that he has Break, making buffs a waste of PP, and every single turn counts against this bastard.

Poseidon. Needs. To. Be. Nerfed.
Heck, even just reducing his Turn Count down to 2 would make him MUCH fairer to fight with the limited options you have for Classes and Equipment at that point.

Caledor

Quote from: bpat on 23, February, 2019, 02:55:52 PM
Poseidon is hard but not unreasonable since you have revive Djinn and Shade at that point. If anything, bosses tend to be too easy on average and Poseidon is an exception. He's difficult but absolutely manageable without needing to grind.
The only boss that deserved the slight nerf it received is the Flame Dragon duo. Everything else has been tested so much that is straight up impossible that something that "needs to be nerfed" still exists

Average Wind Seer

I have two runs completely stopped because of Poseidon (though one was HM, so not much can be done there). Not even dual wishing and max buffs can save me because of Poseidon having Break and a Party Wide Instant Death attack.

I may try to cheese it by alternating Flower and Shade, though that likely won't work simply due to how hard Poseidon hits, how many actions per turn he has, and his Party Wide Instant Death attack.

Seriously, no boss should ever have Instant Death, because then it becomes more of a battle of luck than a battle of strength/skill.

Caledor

This just sounds like a baseless complain to me, so i'll say this once.

We're telling you (me and bpat both) that Poseidon can be beaten and you aren't even curious about what you might be doing wrong. You didn't post builds, ask for advice or talk about actual numbers (istant death trigger chance, luck-based formulae, anything). Heck, you didn't even bother reading my signature!

To sum it up, this is not how you (anyone) should give feedback.

QuoteSeriously, no boss should ever have Instant Death, because then it becomes more of a battle of luck than a battle of strength/skill.
Also, this is beyond wrong. Luck is a STAT. It can be manipulated. ID has a base 15% rate on damaging moves, which also means that multiple IDs have a <2% chance of happening. You need to ask for/know the numbers before saying "nerf this, nerf that". 

Average Wind Seer

#535
here are my builds in screenshots down below.

I've considered going to Dual-Element Classes for Piers and Felix, but honestly the only benefit I would really get is allowing me to freely use Djinni Ether.

I know full well that Luck is a Stat that can be manipulated, HOWEVER, unless there are hidden equipments in the Eastern Sea that I don't know about, there are only two Luck boosting equipment available for the guys (Unicorn Ring and Golden Boots). Jenna and Sheba have Ankhs and Astral Circlets, but honestly they'd likely prefer Staffs for more PP and extra Venus or Mercury Power for better healing and better PP sustain for more heals. Astral Circlet is a very nice head piece for the girls, but they also might want the Pure Circlet for the Mercury Resist so Poseidon's attacks don't hurt as much.

15% is pretty dang high for a base ID rate, honestly. Yiazmat in FFXII has I believe a 5% Instant Death chance with his basic attacks, yet it still lands VERY often.

Instant Death is a VERY cheap status effect, even if it has a low chance to land. In my opinion, it's better suited on Random Enemies than on Bosses, since Bosses WILL be considerably long battles, and in such long battles, the RNG has MANY opportunities to simply decide that you get blasted with multiple Instant Deaths. Meanwhile random battles can end within a couple of turns at minimum, meaning Instant Death can still hurt, but not be borderline Run-Ending.

EDIT:
what are the Luck-based formulae, anyway? Because, honestly, Luck never ever feels worthwhile to invest in since 15 Luck was plenty enough on my Cursed Mages in an earlier version, and I'm pretty sure 40 Luck isn't feasibly reached on anyone other than Angel Mia with all the Luck Boosting Mercury Djinn, a Psychic Circlet, and Clotho's Distaff.

Caledor

Just upload the .sav file. It's much easier

Average Wind Seer

I can't attach more than 4 files per post on mobile (dunno if it's different on PC), and I figured posting my team's class+equipment would get better mileage than just uploading the .sav file. Anyway, it's attached to this post, now.

Also a minor thing, but Chill still sometimes uses the Critical Hit animations, but at this point, I assume there isn't much that can be done about it/it's not worth fixing?

Maxipotter

#538
Hey Cal, you say Jonin has wet tissue defenses even though they are better than what most of the mages get, THIS is NOT bad balance but if THEY can survive then surely so can the Jonin with better multipliers and more defensive equipment options. And in the end staying alive is what matters.

My main issues with Jonin is that there are so many different situations where you would want to use it over other clases:

  • Pretty much all the mid-game, from the moment you get the 6 djinn up until end-game. Since you are not stat capped the extra atk and PP go a long way
  • All mid-game bosses, except maybe Poseidon. Avimander is easy enough (and alternative setups Protector and Paladin are niche and not really needed) and then Moapa, Karst and Agatio and Flame Dragons all get destroyed by shuriken faster than by ST :MercuryStar: EPAs. Since Shuriken is 1.2xN°enemies, so with 2 enemies you get 2.4 multiplier, way better than Plume Edge's x1.7 or Quick Strike's x2.0
  • Any trash even end-game, since shuriken hits harder than base power psynergies and is cheaper (even against Jupiter Lighthouse :JupiterStar: resistant enemies my Felix's Shuriken would deal more damage than Guardian Jenna's Mother Gaia or Pure Mage Sheba's Hail Prism even though they had their apropiate elemental power equipment).
  • Bosses weak to Venus (namely Sentinel): Since Annihilation is just a more expensive Tyrfing but because Jonin has a higher PP pool it somewhat cancells out. You could consider Shogun Skull Splitter to debuff Defense, but you lose out on the impact/ward utility jonin offers.
  • Star Magician: a Jonin with 863 attack (achived by buffs, for example 691 base+25% easily achieved in 1 turn) should one shot Refresh Ball and Thunder Ball (and two shot the others) while damaging nearby targets with shuriken. So potentially one shot two orbs and damage the Magician
  • Finally, if you want to run a Hybrid for some reason

While the other clases only shine in really specific Boss fights:

  • Warlord in Balrog and thats it
  • Shogun in Doom Dragon and Dullahan that hit so hard it may not be a good idea to go Jonin


Most of the Jonin's points are about Shuriken being strong not about the Atk multiplier being too high, but Shuriken would still be strong even if the attack multiplier was way weaker. This presents three separate ways to fix it:

  • 1: Really Nerf/Remove Shuriken. This is the easiest one. I wouldn't really like it since I find Shuriken's mechanics very interesting
  • 2: Relocate Shuriken /Create Shuriken copies for other clases to use. I already gave some ideas for this, but I do think too many would totally ruin it
  • 3: Turn Jonin into a more mage-like class by lowering the Atk multiplier by 15-20% and increasing PP, Luck or Wrd. Shuriken would still be useful in some situations but it would not be as mandatory and it would make other EPAs more desirable against some of the bosses

EDIT: Also, about the Poseidon Instant Death issue. I don't think its a bad mechanic to have Instant Death but it does mean you sometimes have bad RNGs and have to replay the same fight over and over and it can get on your nerves so I understand how Wind Seer feels

Average Wind Seer

#539
Exactly everything Maxipotter said is why Jonin is so incredibly unbalanced, invalidating the other Classes for Felix, Isaac, and Garet.

If you add more MT EPAs, I suggest giving one to Destroyer (replace Frost line), Warlord or Shogun, and Valkyrie.

Truthfully, Valkyrie still doesn't work as a support class, or even a hybrid class. Instead she now does her job of being a Warrior class for Jenna, so that's something.

Personally, with Poseidon, all that needs to be done for it to be a fair fight is removing Watery Grave's Instant Death chance (MT+15% base chance of ID is just ridiculous), and either change Break to be ST (you only ever need it against bosses anyway) or remove it from Poseidon. I stated in a previous post that having maxed out defensive buffs makes Poseidon manageable but still dangerous, so giving the option to actually use buffs would make the fight fair without changing Poseidon's stats.

I also stated that Instant Death just works better on Random Battles due to their short nature, while it makes Bosses incredibly luck based due to boss battles taking a considerably long time. If you still doubt that a <2% chance of multiple IDs from Watery Grave is enough to be worth removing from Poseidon, I'd like to note that in The Legend of Legacy, I once had a boss use its Uber Attack, a Party Wide attack that deals close to 300 damage per character with a max HP average of 400 and can inflict poison, F I V E  T U R N S  I N  A  R O W. The odds of that happened should be really low, and yet it happened. Never underestimate the wrath of Bad RNG, Cal.

EDIT:
I figured I should tack this on, considering your response the last time I stated Bosses with Instant Death are luck-based battles.

Luck being a Stat doesn't mean squat until it breaks numbers that outright make the characters immune to ailments, which is impossible for pretty much everyone but Mia. As long as the chance of multiple Instant Deaths is greater than 0%, it can, and will, still happen.

That aside, the Luck Boosting Equipment is near non-existant for the guys during the Eastern Sea, and the girls have equipment that can make a bigger difference between life and death than maybe reducing the chance of being insta-killed by 1% or so, such as the Pure Circlet adding 20 :MercuryStar: Resist. Even if you stacked on all the Luck Boosting Gear from the Eastern Sea on Sheba or Jenna, you're still horrendously screwed if Watery Grave insta-kills two or more party members.