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Author Topic: Self introduction, new project in mind(Halp please)  (Read 13779 times)
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Salanewt
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« Reply #40 on: 11, April, 2017, 04:22:54 PM »

Well, it depends on how one feels about rings; should they be reusable items and little more or should they provide equipment bonuses? Or both? Rings aren't the only items to be used as reusable ones (e.g. Fireman's Pole, China Dress, the masks), and armlets are basically rings but better. Is there a point in keeping them around aside from emergencies when they lack of stat bonus? I know I almost never use them in my playthroughs because they are almost utterly worthless, aside from the Spirit Ring because it can be used outside of battle and never break.


Plus, the reason I'm suggesting handicaps on the ring is because extra turns can be broken very easily, especially when the player is not forced to sacrifice something in exchange for them. Even Kite, the djinni that grants an extra turn, still has to have a turn sacrificed to use the effect, lowers a couple stats by a tiny bit, and has the potential to mess with the user's class setup. Plus it has a cooldown of at least two more turns before you can give yourself an extra turn again (having to reset the djinni and then use it, unless used in a summon). Having an extra turn for every round in every battle without having drawbacks could easily make the game far easier than it would otherwise be due to the "action economy" mentioned by leaf and Rolina earlier, even if you only have it some of the time. The other alternatives to making the ring have drawbacks would be to either make all enemies far stronger than they currently are or to make Ivan a fair bit weaker weaker than he and the other characters currently are (maybe with more rings being made available throughout the game so Ivan could have some variety), yet both of these alternatives would have significant effects on gameplay.


As for the stat/ePower thing, it depends? Manu said that the ring would be exclusive to Ivan, meaning that reducing the other ePowers would make it so Ivan's dominant element is still stronger; this would make him well suited for either spellcasting or summon abuse with minimal drawback, while that would idea would actually provide an incentive to experiment with the class system or at least use summons differently, and depending on how spells and other equipment is balanced it might not be that bad of a deal.




Well anyway. Regardless of what you decide to do Manu, I look forward to reading about it from you and maybe even playing it someday!
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« Reply #41 on: 11, April, 2017, 07:41:18 PM »

Well yes... what breaks will only break in battle.

To me, I'm thinking it really just depends on how the other rings would be balanced... the others seemed fairly weak and worthless....

My saying 50%, might have been a tad bit too high, but I used a middling number for an example. I'm thinking: Any status effects applied would last for one turn (or 1/2 the turns) and giving half the boost? - Such properties as these is the type of thinking I was having for the Ring. So might be worse than 50% damage. - But do note, I have not thought much about the actual balancing. (Double turns can get pretty complex...?) Just I'm going to guess that most people trying to add a Double turn ring would likely want it to be more straight-forward than complex. - I get the feeling we both would make it complex when balance testing happens, though. :P

(And while it could effectively cut elevel indirectly... it would likely be invisible and applied to the second turn.)
Also the reasoning for my thinking it is an end-game ring == You already have four PCs. So the additional effects/damage should be somewhat less useful than otherwise.
In one sense, the /time/ it takes to use up the second turn and finish the battle also counts, nevermind round efficiency. (Which counts too.) (E.G. One spell that takes 2 hours to cast that give the boss a K.O. versus an actual five minute challenge that also gives a boss a K.O. - But this is a poor example, sorry.)



New theory: What if all rings gave you a second turn, but had a special unique power? - Might be daring, but it would balance out the double turn part, probably.... but then you got the special power to deal with. My guess is that it might slow down battles and continue to make them complex and more difficult to balance.



Better yet... If Ivan is going to get two turns, why do it though a ring? How about he learns how to have two moves (esp. if weaker than everyone else)... so it doesn't have to be part of specific set-ups?
« Last Edit: 11, April, 2017, 08:30:03 PM by Fox » Logged

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« Reply #42 on: 14, April, 2017, 10:29:36 AM »

About the ring idea - it also breaks healers.  Even if you boost their PP costs, being able to double-cast low tier spells in a PP-regen build mitigates most of the healing balances.  I mean, sure you could cast Pure Wish... or you could just have Angel Mia double cast Wish, recover most of that, and only use higher levels of wish when necessary.  Give her the PP restoration djinn and it could further break the build...

If y'all want to see the effects of action economy more, try playing some D&D 5e.  Whether you face more or less foes makes a huge difference, even if it's a ton of weak foes.  You'll need to be super careful with implementing them.
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« Reply #43 on: 14, April, 2017, 03:15:41 PM »

To be fair to Manu, I think the ring idea would only work on Ivan so he would only be able to get the Wish line when he has four or more Mercury djinn in certain classes (assuming classes stay the same, which they might not). Still a good point but not quite as hard to balance as if Mia could use it. 
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« Reply #44 on: 14, April, 2017, 07:51:34 PM »

That, and if it lowers elemental power for Venus/Mars/Mercury, in one of my ideas. (Visible or invisible... Jupiter was undecided, but it too could be affected by the general decrease of everything. :P).... Mercury/Wish would do even less healing? - By the time we're done, the second turn is basically a time-waster to get a tiny hit bonus. (Hopefully the goal, right?)


---
Edit: @action economy: Yep....... Double turns with no other modification... could mean +25% to like +100% useful depending on set-up....
@+25% = Even if stat deductions are included, if an enemy can be killed in 1 hit still.. then that is what I refer to... (Provided you actually need the extra turn, since your other PCs could probably have them all killed before getting to the second round of turns.)
@+100% = Assumes a point in time where your other PCs are too weak / have been Stunned/fallen asleep/etc.
and other rings are generally LESS than 10% useful. HUGE difference... Perhaps if we already had 20+ turns / round, then double turns with no other modification could make more sense? (But even then, it may still need balancing? - But if the percent difference/tolerance is close to (or under) like 1%, then it is likely micro-optimizations.)


If we are thinking about the unmodified Double Turn ring that just doubles a turn for one PC = What if the ring also doubled the turns of every enemy on the enemy side? :P Ouch!?
Reminds me of Ghostbusters, somewhat... "I wish to be the best on my team" = You stay the same, everyone else dumbs down.... Etc.
Because what this Ring would then mean is that the other three PCs would lose a turn every other round. (Hard mode on purpose. - Unless you gave the ring other bonuses like x2 to stats as a random example.)
« Last Edit: 15, April, 2017, 12:10:26 AM by Fox » Logged

Golden Sun Docs: Broken Seal - The Lost Age - Dark Dawn | Mario Sports Docs: Mario Golf & Mario Tennis | Misc. Docs
Refer to Yoshi's Lighthouse for any M&L hacking needs...

Sometimes I like to compare apples to oranges. (Figuratively) ... They are both fruits, but which one would you eat more? (If taken literally, I'd probably choose apples.)
Maybe it is over-analyzing, but it doesn't mean the information is useless.


The only GS Discord servers with significance are:
Golden Sun Hacking Community
GS Speedrunning
/r/Golden Sun
GS United Nations
Temple of Kraden

Can you believe how small the Golden Sun Community is?

2+2=5 Don't believe me? Those are rounded decimal numbers. Take that, flat earth theorists! :)
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« Reply #45 on: 16, April, 2017, 06:00:35 PM »

Heya boys. Thanks for the replies. I never thought my ideas would get such analysing responses. Thanks!!
To answer your question I'll give you my point of view:
Ivan has been a cool PC, the thing is we all remember him because of how fast he was and how he was always dying(Lol).
I have had a thought process through this: I will try to implement both patches; intellect and PP multipling formula. Where I nerf the stat growth of intellect by a 20% and I tweak the multiplier by 1*(max PP/1536) so that the multiplier also gets a nerf and it does not progress quadratically as Rolina and Leaf stated.
As for the ring: the ring will grant a turn and some Jupiter power(to remain his element aligned weapon unleash viable), and Ivan will either get a nerf on max PP and attack or the ring will provide this 0.6(suggested) multiplier on these 2. Testing needed first. It can only be equipped to Ivan and it will be called ''Hammet's Gift'' or ''Hammet's Heirloom''

Given this information, I will do my best to balance this out by taking serious consideration on when to heal with him if he is desired to play as a healing caster, forcing him to actually be an economy action based character when it comes to healing and support. Think of this as an ''oh sh!t moment button''. Please take in consideration that PP Recovery granting items are going to be tweaked as well. He will also have an innately nerfed PP pool so he will have a hard time spamming heals and recovering that PP, as I plan to make these a lot more expensive.

Again, thanks everyone for reading and I'll be open to more  suggestions.


P.D. : I will try to think of rings for every character to make the slot a bit more impactful on the game.
« Last Edit: 16, April, 2017, 06:06:45 PM by Manu » Logged
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« Reply #46 on: 16, April, 2017, 06:09:53 PM »

Quote
I have had a thought process through this: I will try to implement both patches; intellect and PP multipling formula. Where I nerf the stat growth of intellect by a 20% and I tweak the multiplier by 1*(max PP/1536) so that the multiplier also gets a nerf and it does not progress quadratically as Rolina and Leaf stated.

???

You don't hit anywhere close to 1500 PP by endgame. That formula is going to result in substantially lower damage dealt throughout the game. Did you perhaps mean to type 1 + (maxPP/1536)?
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Spoiler for quotes:
[9:00:50 PM] Randel Peltier: Ok...what did I do last night?
[9:01:19 PM] Kain: Something boring, repetitive, and lasted for about sixty seconds.
---
[10:45:08 AM] Salanewt: But yeah, the elemental phalluses are being... Stroked up by Saturos and co., and the energy will go towards... Mt. Muffin, where the Golden Climax will arise.
[7:28:42 PM] Salanewt: An added bonus is that Isaac and co. were trying to stop Saturos and co. because their beliefs state that Mt. Muffin should remain a virgin.
---
[9:54:21 PM] Randel Peltier: Guess the number in my head an you get to pick what I say. Number between 1-10
[9:54:28 PM] leaf: 11
[9:54:36 PM] Randel Peltier: @#$%!
---
[8:38:13 PM] Randel Peltier: Shes like this queen up on a pedastal that I have yet to court.
[8:38:29 PM] Kain: You've tried courting her.
[8:38:43 PM] leaf: and failed spectacularly
[8:38:44 PM] Randel Peltier: Ive tried...shes the best dating game ever.
---
[12:24:35 AM] Salanewt: I need to find a picture of a naked person to put on the Christmas tree next year.
---
[2:19:06 PM] Zeadra: wait... Rief's a guy???
---
[1:09:57 PM] Zeadra: well if you want to know if its a new effect or something weird, just check GS1, if side step is there maby it is the nimble dodge thing
[1:10:35 PM] Kioll: For once, you've contributed something useful.  o.O
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« Reply #47 on: 16, April, 2017, 06:37:37 PM »

Yup. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Tyvm.
« Last Edit: 17, April, 2017, 12:19:17 AM by Manu » Logged
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