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Author Topic: Three Ideas for Balancing Summons  (Read 620 times)
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Rolina
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« Reply #15 on: August 10, 2017, 08:32:26 PM »

Looking at that, you get 100% after what, ten level difference?  If we used (Relative Level * 10) then it'd max at 5 over, and if (Relative Level * 15) it'd max at 3-4 over.  I think either of those two would be a better modifier, and I'm leaning towards the last one (*15) myself personally.
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leaf
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« Reply #16 on: August 10, 2017, 08:35:24 PM »

If you make the relative level mod bigger, it makes it impossible to flee against higher level enemies. If a 3 level difference results in a 45% flat difference in flee rate, you could very easily be locked into fighting something you can't beat. Considering that wandering into an area above your level and getting the hell out of there is one of the two main reasons someone would want to flee, I don't view that as an acceptable solution.

Changing the 5000 to 7500 would increase the base flee rate from 50% (wtf this is so bad) to 75%, which still results in a guaranteed flee at 5 level difference, but still favors the player until they reach a 5+ level deficit. Personally, if I was going to retune it to allow fleeing to fail, but do so rarely, I'd prob do something like...

8500 + 1200*flee fails + (relative level*300) >= random(0,9999)
« Last Edit: August 10, 2017, 08:37:20 PM by leaf » Logged

Spoiler for quotes:
[9:00:50 PM] Randel Peltier: Ok...what did I do last night?
[9:01:19 PM] Kain: Something boring, repetitive, and lasted for about sixty seconds.
---
[10:45:08 AM] Salanewt: But yeah, the elemental phalluses are being... Stroked up by Saturos and co., and the energy will go towards... Mt. Muffin, where the Golden Climax will arise.
[7:28:42 PM] Salanewt: An added bonus is that Isaac and co. were trying to stop Saturos and co. because their beliefs state that Mt. Muffin should remain a virgin.
---
[9:54:21 PM] Randel Peltier: Guess the number in my head an you get to pick what I say. Number between 1-10
[9:54:28 PM] leaf: 11
[9:54:36 PM] Randel Peltier: @#$%!
---
[8:38:13 PM] Randel Peltier: Shes like this queen up on a pedastal that I have yet to court.
[8:38:29 PM] Kain: You've tried courting her.
[8:38:43 PM] leaf: and failed spectacularly
[8:38:44 PM] Randel Peltier: Ive tried...shes the best dating game ever.
---
[12:24:35 AM] Salanewt: I need to find a picture of a naked person to put on the Christmas tree next year.
---
[2:19:06 PM] Zeadra: wait... Rief's a guy???
---
[1:09:57 PM] Zeadra: well if you want to know if its a new effect or something weird, just check GS1, if side step is there maby it is the nimble dodge thing
[1:10:35 PM] Kioll: For once, you've contributed something useful.  o.O
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Rolina
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« Reply #17 on: August 10, 2017, 08:55:06 PM »

Hmm...  Good point.  If it's impossible to flee, it'd be a bit too strict.  What if we have a different formula for when you're facing foes of a higher level vs a lower level?  Like, using the old formula if it's a negative value, but the *15 version if it's a positive value?  That way it stays kinda tough if you're underleveled (as it should), but if you're higher level and foes are just kinda trivial, then fleeing from them should be trivial too?

I mean, considering GS' pacing, it's not too terribly hard to get to a higher level.  I don't think I ever had a first run in any GS game where I wasn't overleveled the first time I played through it.

Here's another idea - what if relative level looks at total level and not average level?  It'd make sense that it's harder to get away from a horde of enemies than it would be to get away from a couple foes.  What do y'all think?  Nevermind, that might make it too easy due to how rarely you face at least four foes.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2017, 01:33:10 AM by Rolina » Logged

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« Reply #18 on: August 11, 2017, 10:28:28 AM »

@Fleeing:
Quote
Seems to me like there's a lot of unnecessary digits in that calculation.
Yeah, that could maybe look better... But I doubt it matters whichever way you do it. (I'm not even sure if it is suppose to be thought with invisible decimal places or not. e.g. 5000 vs. 50.00... Would make it easier to read (0-100%), in any case.)


--
Also, another question is if there should be caps.

Example:
50% = base
-30% to +30% = Average level
+0% to +20% = No idea? (Maybe applied from equipped items/etc.)
+Bonus from fleeFails....

I suppose making fleeing be 100% chance depends on the type of hack someone is making (e.g. Like changes to Level Mechanics/etc.), and whether they intended for battles to be entirely optional or not. (e.g. Imagine a Boss battle as a random encounter, but don't want to lock people into it until they're ready.)


--
@ *5 and *15 could work, but if an added conditional requires a bit of repointing (not sure)/depends on space....  I'd say modifying the base rate (like in leaf's post) could be enough for a simple edit. -- OR ... keep the same formula and design enemies to have x-5 levels. (Besides Fleeing, what else does enemy level affect? Edit: It'll affect Critical Hit damage, but only by a small amount. (+0 to +19 , I think? ; targetLevel/5 ; Most enemies are not super high-leveled, though... (Dullahan = Level 50)... when target level is 10-20 (Depending on Critical Hit Chance?), target level is about as meaningless as +0 to +3 from RNG. :P) ; I know that PC levels can affect encounter frequency / Avoid/Sacred Feather (Ability for it to work at all/ not its duration. But I can't remember looking that part up, so not sure...))

So if it's just Flee Chance and Crits, I question a system where enemies don't have "levels"....

7500 + (2000*fleeFails) + (Relative Level * 500) >= Random(0,9999)
Level range = -15 to +5 ; Where -5 is 50%.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2017, 11:55:15 AM by Fox » Logged

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Rolina
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« Reply #19 on: August 11, 2017, 06:07:27 PM »

Level helps when it comes to pacing out the game.  IMO, that's where it's most useful.  "What level do I expect the party to be in this area?  I'll make foes be around that level."  Apart from that... Ehhhh?  I always figured Agility made more sense for flee rate, honestly.  Level really only matters for determining guaranteed rate of flight - if you're above X levels over the enemy, flee rate should just be 100%.
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« Reply #20 on: August 12, 2017, 06:47:32 PM »

Alright, so after some more days thinking about it, I think I've arrived at the following conclusions...

---------------------------------------------------------

1) Instead of "nerfing" things, I should probably be BUFFING other things whenever possible; like enemy stats, status ailments, and things like that.  For example, if, say, Fusion Dragon always starts the fight with an attack that instantly paralyzes someone (bypasses resistance and everything), that would already make "Flash + Granite/Ground" spamming way more dangerous.  For that reason, it would ultimately be counterproductive to increase Djinn Recovery times, inside or outside of battle.  

2) That said, I'd still like to slash the HP% multiplier on summons slightly.  I...don't have anywhere near the programming skills needed to do the whole "two healthbars" thing, and the multiplier slash accomplishes basically the same thing (even if it IS way less cool than what Breath of Fire 1 did Sad ...)

3) I still want to play around with the idea of giving summons strict PP costs; someone else mentioned the idea of making it so that high level summons couldn't be used in the opening turns.  Now, I can see the merit of that, and it WOULD remove the potential for abuse against randoms...but the thing is, that would only become relevant somewhere in the midgame.  You see, even the lower level summons (like Kirin, Nereid, and Atlanta) are really good.  They're generally stronger than the Psynergies you have by the time they're first available, they don't cost a cent of PP, and they hit WAY more enemies.  So they'd still put Attack Psynergies to shame in the early game (though that might work itself out by the endgame).

The only other way I can think of ensuring the viability of Attack Psynergies would be buffing them to ridiculous degrees; like slashing their PP costs by half, SIGNIFICANTLY increasing their power, increasing the range of most of them, and etc., etc.  And that seems like things would get a little silly if I attempted that Um...

---------------------------------------------------------
« Last Edit: August 12, 2017, 06:52:23 PM by Fionordequester » Logged
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leaf
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« Reply #21 on: August 12, 2017, 07:44:06 PM »

Caledor is the one who implemented a system where you cannot use anything higher than tier 2(?) summons on the first turn of battle. Each turn, an additional tier would unlock.

I think your concern about the early game is misplaced, though. Even if someone were to spam tier 1 or 2 summons in normal battles, it's at a point of the game where it's arguably needed. In the early game, "attack" is not a valid way of doing damage. Tier 1 summons only have 30 base power, so they quickly get overtaken by area psys. Likewise, tier 2 summons only have 60 base power, which is comparable to psynergy available at that time. This essentially just makes tier 1 or 2 summons into a "free psynergy cast," but a single free psynergy cast is not going to win the battle for you; you'll still probably be expending PP elsewhere if you're trying to one-round an encounter - and if you don't one-round, you're going to be expending PP on healing instead. When tier 3 becomes available is the first time it might be considered a problem, since they have a base power of 120, and tier 4 is 240.

In regard to buffing psynergy... you wouldn't need to cut their cost in half. A small reduction would go a long way. Remember that PP regen is a thing. You don't have a fixed amount of psynergy you can spend, but rather an infinite resource that takes time to fill to a capacity. I do think area psy PP costs are slightly too high across the board, but even as much as a 20% reduction would let the player spam them considerably more.
Logged

Spoiler for quotes:
[9:00:50 PM] Randel Peltier: Ok...what did I do last night?
[9:01:19 PM] Kain: Something boring, repetitive, and lasted for about sixty seconds.
---
[10:45:08 AM] Salanewt: But yeah, the elemental phalluses are being... Stroked up by Saturos and co., and the energy will go towards... Mt. Muffin, where the Golden Climax will arise.
[7:28:42 PM] Salanewt: An added bonus is that Isaac and co. were trying to stop Saturos and co. because their beliefs state that Mt. Muffin should remain a virgin.
---
[9:54:21 PM] Randel Peltier: Guess the number in my head an you get to pick what I say. Number between 1-10
[9:54:28 PM] leaf: 11
[9:54:36 PM] Randel Peltier: @#$%!
---
[8:38:13 PM] Randel Peltier: Shes like this queen up on a pedastal that I have yet to court.
[8:38:29 PM] Kain: You've tried courting her.
[8:38:43 PM] leaf: and failed spectacularly
[8:38:44 PM] Randel Peltier: Ive tried...shes the best dating game ever.
---
[12:24:35 AM] Salanewt: I need to find a picture of a naked person to put on the Christmas tree next year.
---
[2:19:06 PM] Zeadra: wait... Rief's a guy???
---
[1:09:57 PM] Zeadra: well if you want to know if its a new effect or something weird, just check GS1, if side step is there maby it is the nimble dodge thing
[1:10:35 PM] Kioll: For once, you've contributed something useful.  o.O
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Rolina
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« Reply #22 on: August 12, 2017, 08:17:18 PM »

Honestly, the turn gating is something I disagree with.  There are better ways to handle summons - one of the biggest things you could do is basically make enemies faster so that summon rushing can be punished.  Plus, this basically makes any summon that costs more than 5-6 even more useless than they already are.  Balancing summons would need to go both ways, because some just can't justify their cost.
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leaf
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« Reply #23 on: August 12, 2017, 09:30:48 PM »

Yeah, I'm not fond of the turn-gating solution, myself. You mentioned reducing djinn count and reducing power of multi-elemental summons on the discord, and that's definitely something I can agree with. Any summon that takes 7+ djinn is only useful for summon rushing, and is more of a gimmick than anything to pull out in normal combat. That would help balancing pretty much everything except Iris, since Iris's secondary effect (revive all party members, even those out of battle) is fundamentally broken; it would either need that effect removed or it would need to remain at a very high djinn count.

Higher enemy agility is actually pretty clever. If turn speed is balanced around the expectation of the player having djinn and having them set, that means that if the player *does not* have their djinn set, they'll end up moving after the enemies, which defeats the point of trying to summon against them in the first place. It would dance a pretty fine line to get it right, but it has the potential to fix the problem without having to change any basic game mechanics.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2017, 09:37:40 PM by leaf » Logged

Spoiler for quotes:
[9:00:50 PM] Randel Peltier: Ok...what did I do last night?
[9:01:19 PM] Kain: Something boring, repetitive, and lasted for about sixty seconds.
---
[10:45:08 AM] Salanewt: But yeah, the elemental phalluses are being... Stroked up by Saturos and co., and the energy will go towards... Mt. Muffin, where the Golden Climax will arise.
[7:28:42 PM] Salanewt: An added bonus is that Isaac and co. were trying to stop Saturos and co. because their beliefs state that Mt. Muffin should remain a virgin.
---
[9:54:21 PM] Randel Peltier: Guess the number in my head an you get to pick what I say. Number between 1-10
[9:54:28 PM] leaf: 11
[9:54:36 PM] Randel Peltier: @#$%!
---
[8:38:13 PM] Randel Peltier: Shes like this queen up on a pedastal that I have yet to court.
[8:38:29 PM] Kain: You've tried courting her.
[8:38:43 PM] leaf: and failed spectacularly
[8:38:44 PM] Randel Peltier: Ive tried...shes the best dating game ever.
---
[12:24:35 AM] Salanewt: I need to find a picture of a naked person to put on the Christmas tree next year.
---
[2:19:06 PM] Zeadra: wait... Rief's a guy???
---
[1:09:57 PM] Zeadra: well if you want to know if its a new effect or something weird, just check GS1, if side step is there maby it is the nimble dodge thing
[1:10:35 PM] Kioll: For once, you've contributed something useful.  o.O
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Rolina
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« Reply #24 on: August 12, 2017, 09:52:26 PM »

I think Iris' secondary effect is straight up excessive.  It's almost like they made it that powerful to justify the extreme cost.  I'm fine turning it into a front row only percentile recovery.  Perhaps drop revival effects for PP recovery.  How's 50% HP recovery and 12.5% PP Recovery sound for a 7 cost summon?
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« Reply #25 on: August 12, 2017, 10:49:49 PM »

But see, here's the thing; you need to beat Dullahan to GET to Iris!  Is it really OP when you don't have it for the guy who's toughest anyway?
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leaf
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« Reply #26 on: August 13, 2017, 12:02:53 AM »

Yeah... Iris is probably best left as a gimmick in all honesty. Not everything *needs* to be practical, especially if it's the reward for beating the uber boss.
Logged

Spoiler for quotes:
[9:00:50 PM] Randel Peltier: Ok...what did I do last night?
[9:01:19 PM] Kain: Something boring, repetitive, and lasted for about sixty seconds.
---
[10:45:08 AM] Salanewt: But yeah, the elemental phalluses are being... Stroked up by Saturos and co., and the energy will go towards... Mt. Muffin, where the Golden Climax will arise.
[7:28:42 PM] Salanewt: An added bonus is that Isaac and co. were trying to stop Saturos and co. because their beliefs state that Mt. Muffin should remain a virgin.
---
[9:54:21 PM] Randel Peltier: Guess the number in my head an you get to pick what I say. Number between 1-10
[9:54:28 PM] leaf: 11
[9:54:36 PM] Randel Peltier: @#$%!
---
[8:38:13 PM] Randel Peltier: Shes like this queen up on a pedastal that I have yet to court.
[8:38:29 PM] Kain: You've tried courting her.
[8:38:43 PM] leaf: and failed spectacularly
[8:38:44 PM] Randel Peltier: Ive tried...shes the best dating game ever.
---
[12:24:35 AM] Salanewt: I need to find a picture of a naked person to put on the Christmas tree next year.
---
[2:19:06 PM] Zeadra: wait... Rief's a guy???
---
[1:09:57 PM] Zeadra: well if you want to know if its a new effect or something weird, just check GS1, if side step is there maby it is the nimble dodge thing
[1:10:35 PM] Kioll: For once, you've contributed something useful.  o.O
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Rolina
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« Reply #27 on: August 13, 2017, 04:15:21 AM »

But see, here's the thing; you need to beat Dullahan to GET to Iris!  Is it really OP when you don't have it for the guy who's toughest anyway?
But it's not.  It costs too much to be useful.  If it was OP, then it'd be too cheap for the effect.  What good is a prize that's never worth using?
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leaf
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« Reply #28 on: August 13, 2017, 05:25:37 PM »

He was saying it would be okay if the cost was made cheaper to make it "OP" while keeping the effect. Personally, I disagree, since it'd be nice if the doom dragon still offered at least some semblance of challenge, even after beating all other content.

I'd rather just leave Iris as a trophy summon. It doesn't need to be practical. It's there to look pretty and to commemorate your beating of Dullahan.
Logged

Spoiler for quotes:
[9:00:50 PM] Randel Peltier: Ok...what did I do last night?
[9:01:19 PM] Kain: Something boring, repetitive, and lasted for about sixty seconds.
---
[10:45:08 AM] Salanewt: But yeah, the elemental phalluses are being... Stroked up by Saturos and co., and the energy will go towards... Mt. Muffin, where the Golden Climax will arise.
[7:28:42 PM] Salanewt: An added bonus is that Isaac and co. were trying to stop Saturos and co. because their beliefs state that Mt. Muffin should remain a virgin.
---
[9:54:21 PM] Randel Peltier: Guess the number in my head an you get to pick what I say. Number between 1-10
[9:54:28 PM] leaf: 11
[9:54:36 PM] Randel Peltier: @#$%!
---
[8:38:13 PM] Randel Peltier: Shes like this queen up on a pedastal that I have yet to court.
[8:38:29 PM] Kain: You've tried courting her.
[8:38:43 PM] leaf: and failed spectacularly
[8:38:44 PM] Randel Peltier: Ive tried...shes the best dating game ever.
---
[12:24:35 AM] Salanewt: I need to find a picture of a naked person to put on the Christmas tree next year.
---
[2:19:06 PM] Zeadra: wait... Rief's a guy???
---
[1:09:57 PM] Zeadra: well if you want to know if its a new effect or something weird, just check GS1, if side step is there maby it is the nimble dodge thing
[1:10:35 PM] Kioll: For once, you've contributed something useful.  o.O
View Profile
Rolina
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« Reply #29 on: August 13, 2017, 09:44:15 PM »

Whereas I fundamentally disagree - if a reward is useless, then it's not a worthy reward, especially if the price of the reward is facing a boss as cheap as Dullahan.  Why bother fighting it?  Once you know how pointless the reward is, then there's no point in even bothering unless you're doing a completionist run.  Might as well have been given a crumpled piece of paper saying "you beat dullahan, good for you", since that would be equally as useful as a reward.
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Today at 08:59:37 PM
Fox: Same... depending on whether they've used tricks instead or not.
Today at 08:02:49 PM
Salanewt: I could see it counting.
Today at 11:24:44 AM
Fox: Not sure if Zelda (LttP/Minish Cap) count or not...
Today at 11:23:00 AM
Fox: Appararently, I can't think of many GBA games that do the psuedo-3D thing. (That being 2D maps with 3D-like collision...) Golden Sun and Superstar Saga come to mind, though... but I'll need to think about others, since it is quite possible i've simply forgotten....
Yesterday at 03:45:19 PM
Fox: Hmm... Thought: What if Isaac and co. weren't on Jupiter Lighthouse when Felix and co. were... I wonder if the story could have had a huge expansion, in this case.
August 18, 2017, 12:18:56 PM
Fox: Welcome back!
August 18, 2017, 09:12:43 AM
Luna_blade: back from vacation
August 17, 2017, 02:29:26 AM
Fox: That moment when you realize that there is a lot of chatting going on on Discord, that there is no point in trying to keep up. :P  Hm....
August 16, 2017, 04:50:22 AM
Fox: (Then again, just because posting is disabled, doesn't necessarily mean the buttons would be removed as well.)
August 16, 2017, 04:48:55 AM
Fox: (I mean, buttons I would expect to be similar to that.... rather than those specifically since I recall posting there to be disabled.)
August 16, 2017, 04:33:02 AM
Fox: Yeah... I like to think of it as a page loaded with ads. And it's not just the forum home page either... check the sub-forums/topics themselves. == New Topic/Reply/etc. buttons were affected.
August 15, 2017, 07:04:30 PM
Salanewt: Lol, nice. :P
August 15, 2017, 06:33:02 PM
Foxhttp://z9.invisionfree.com/Golden_Sun_Hacking/index.php? == Hahaha! GSHC Classic looks funny now that Photobucket killed the images. :P Anyway, how is everyone doing today?
August 14, 2017, 07:12:02 PM
Salanewt: So yeah, I'm typing up a non-academic essay on why GS2 was rushed; expect that sometime soon!
August 07, 2017, 05:53:11 AM
Fox: But anyway, such a hack mod is simply an idea, and I do not have any current plans to work on it at this time, so.....
August 07, 2017, 05:51:46 AM
Fox: Okay, cool. I think my idea works best without an ability to swap PCs (OR to just simply make that use it the PC's turn.) Hmmm... And with that, I question if a turn list is even needed with my approach. (Outside of maybe 1 entry, if that shortens the modifications.)
August 07, 2017, 05:13:26 AM
Salanewt: To be honest I've been thinking of expanding the battle turn section and also adding code for PCs to have more than two turns in the AI overhaul, but I probably won't allow anyone to have more than four.
August 06, 2017, 12:22:17 AM
Fox: Oh, and if that approach was taken = Would like to also have it so you select the spell to use when it is actually your turn rather than at round start.
August 06, 2017, 12:12:37 AM
Fox: Would take a lot of balancing, but I can see an adept being very slow, and yet very powerful.
August 06, 2017, 12:06:11 AM
Fox: And bosses can have an Agility that is above half of the maximum possible Agility. Mwahaha.

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