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Author Topic: Vanilla's skill/strat viability tiers  (Read 1032 times)
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blanky-blank
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« on: October 15, 2018, 06:49:53 AM »

Yes, obviously summons and Megiddo rule the game. But where does everything ELSE rank?

This topic can be deleted if it's already been done somewhere. In the interest of rebalancing the game I think it would be useful to have a list of viability tiers based on the vanilla effects. Feel free to argue that a skill is in the wrong tier because that's the point of posting it.

And yes I know there's already a dedicated rebalance patch. But there are multiple approaches to balance and it's fun to explore them.

(S) The skills that can arguably comprise the optimal loop.
- Summons
- Megiddo
- Lull
- Barriers (Flash etc)

(A) Powerful skills that are not necessary for the optimal loop.
- Pure Wish
- High multiplier EPAs (Legend, Call Dullahan, etc)

(B) Endgame viable, but not needed at higher levels.
- Atk/Res buffing
- Revive
- Break
- Kite
- Status restoration

(C) Endgame viable, but not standard-setting.
- Rime
- Other Multiplier EPAs (Geode, Quick Slash, etc)
- Def buffing
- Eddy
- Petra/Ground
- Pure Ply

(D) Not endgame viable but usable in earlier stages.
- Base damage skills
- Additive EPAs
- Stat debuffing (other than agility)
- Non-Mercury healing
- Bind

(E) Occasionally helpful but VERY situational.
- Venom
- Agility buffing/debuffing

(F) Literally never helps with a single boss.
- Every status not listed above
- Drain/Psy Drain
« Last Edit: October 16, 2018, 01:35:08 AM by blanky-blank » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2018, 01:56:55 PM »

IMHO:

Vanilla Pure Wish is S-. Needs a tier on its own, maybe with Legend and Vengeance. Multiplier EPAs (quick strike) have numbers too low to be that high: they are C+ at best. I'd split buffing in Atk Res and Def, with the former 2 being much more useful than the latter.

Kite, Revive and Break move up to B tier. Petra, Ground Rime are B-.

As for additive EPAs, Ghost Soldier is seriously good in vanilla IIRC for the endgame.
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« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2018, 07:14:17 PM »

No I do not think this has been done before!
Pretty interesting actually. A shame I played so many RPGS in between and kinda forgot what was viable and what was not.
A few things I remember though:
-Deadly Poison is a really good status effect and I remember that it works on some Lizard boss in GS1.
-Specific classes had access to strong single target Psynergy, which can be usefull for bosses. C i guess.
-Salt is a good Djinni.
-Eddy is one of the best Djinni. Many of my Dullahan setups abused that thing

I think the list would also be better if you specified 'buffing' some more.
Agility buffs are amazing with some bosses and utterly useless with others.
If you want to get really specific I would say put all damage Djinnis in D.

That is all I have.
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« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2018, 01:46:35 AM »

Shifted the tiers a bit. Multiplier EPAs have been split into two groups. The first group is (loosely) EPAs that have a multiplier of 2x or more like Call Dullahan and Legend. The second group is essentially Geode and lower. Buffing and debuffing have also been split up since, as pointed out, Def buffing is really just not as good.

Wish and the high EPAs get their own tier, as Caledor suggested. They're clearly better than buffing. Agility buffing and Venom are useful on a few bosses...but do nothing against 90% of the bosses in the series. I bumped them up to a "not quite useless" tier for now.

As for Ghost Soldier it is undeniably the best additive EPA in the game...but that's not saying much tbh. I don't think Atk+170 demands a tier shift compared to Atk multiplied by...well anything greater than 1. Multipliers just straight up ruin the math lol. If Ghost Soldier gets another upvote I'll definitely reconsider it.

One odd one out for me is Kite. In the right strategies it's crazy strong. But in standard usage it's actually pretty middling. Hard to tell where that one should go imo.
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August 15, 2019, 04:08:47 PM
Fox: Golden Sun Slacking Community = I like that, Misery! Perfect April Fools joke?
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August 12, 2019, 11:37:45 PM
Fox: (Someone else discovered that, not me.)
August 12, 2019, 11:33:42 PM
Fox: So um. It looks like abilties in the class editor are being put back in as a byte for GS1?
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August 12, 2019, 07:57:02 PM
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July 06, 2019, 03:44:41 AM
Salanewt: Oh, yeah there isn't an animation overhaul for GS1 sadly.
July 03, 2019, 04:54:58 PM
ryancaesar12345: GS2 Animation Overhaul w/ Baseline  ips patch in golden sun 1?
July 03, 2019, 12:03:06 AM
Salanewt: There actually is a Jupiter revive... if you're using the Animation Overhaul patch. I think Caledor made a standalone patch for GS1 too, but you'd have to ask him.
July 02, 2019, 07:34:13 AM
Fox: So like... (just a thought)...  If we designed a script to compare times for speedrunning something... goalChance represents stability (I think?) ; If it is 100%, answer results in infinite, which means you can't have 100% stability. (Meaning you'd basically be skipping all item drops/etc.) 
July 02, 2019, 07:06:08 AM
Fox: (I still want to make sure the equation is correct, though... as it did include some guessing.)
July 02, 2019, 07:04:47 AM
Fox: Was thinking .... tosses = ln(1-goalChance) / ln(1-chance) = "chance" being a single-toss percentage probability (0.00 - 1.00) , goal chance being if you did more tosses...   So that's an interesting logarithm.  Just came up with it after some research/thinking... and could maybe be useful for general use.
June 25, 2019, 02:51:42 PM
ryancaesar12345: jupiter revive animation any?
June 24, 2019, 08:05:17 AM
Fox: Such a patch would mean you need to be careful with item drops, coins, exp, etc. Because those things would then no longer be an infinite supply.  Whether or not one uses it depends on what they want to do with it.
June 24, 2019, 07:55:01 AM
Fox: (High enough being based on the area you are in.)

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