Average Party Level

[zman9000]

So I was wondering. I know for GS TBS you can go through the game with no grinding and get 100%

So then my question is, what is the min level you can beat each at, if you go through each game, with no grinding, getting 100% with out side trips that don't help the 100%.

For GS TBS: I'm sure its under LV. 18
but i'm not sure how low.
For GS TLA: I'm sure its around LV. 30

Who ever finds this out gets a cookie... um... coin...

[Rolina]

TBS has a target level of 28.  That's why 28 is the default level they join you at in TLA.

TLA's target level I think is around 48 or so, not quite certain.

The minimum level you can beat the games at?

Isaac: 1
Garet: 1
Ivan: 4
Mia: 10
Felix: 5
Jenna: 5
Sheba: 5
Piers: 19

Someone did a 0 XP run and beat both games AND DULLAHAN.  With the right strategy, level doesn't matter too much.  Apparently, according to that guy, at levels this low, the Doom Dragon is way harder than Dullahan.

[Durza]

I suppose Doom Dragon would be harder, since you can't predict its attacks. At such low levels, I suppose getting Djinn Stormed wouldn't be as bad...

What's the lowest possible level for DD by the way? I know it's possible to beat it with no djinn at level 60 or so.

[leaf]

TBS has a target level of 28.  That's why 28 is the default level they join you at in TLA.

TLA's target level I think is around 48 or so, not quite certain.

That logic doesn't work for me. Lv47-48 is what you hit after doing all the bonus bosses and everything. In the original, lv25-26 is what you hit for doing everything. Yet, if you don't import data, the characters come at lv28. This means that either the target level for GS1 was lower than 28, or the target level for TLA is above 48, as they expect you to be doing some grinding.

And I thought piers came at lv18, not 19.

[zman9000]

That logic doesn't work for me. Lv47-48 is what you hit after doing all the bonus bosses and everything. In the original, lv25-26 is what you hit for doing everything.

I don't agree with part of that. like I said, With no extra grinding, and no running from battles, and no boosters for or redusers for battles, I got every djinni and all the best gear, and beat the game (GS1) at level 19. the final battle took place at level 18 all around, and every one leveled up to 19 after the battle,

Also something interesting for GS2 is that, I almost always make it to the jupiter light house at around level 16, and have the battle at the top anywhere between level 16 and 22...

[Rolina]

TBS has a target level of 28.  That's why 28 is the default level they join you at in TLA.

TLA's target level I think is around 48 or so, not quite certain.

That logic doesn't work for me. Lv47-48 is what you hit after doing all the bonus bosses and everything. In the original, lv25-26 is what you hit for doing everything. Yet, if you don't import data, the characters come at lv28. This means that either the target level for GS1 was lower than 28, or the target level for TLA is above 48, as they expect you to be doing some grinding.

And I thought piers came at lv18, not 19.

It's one of the two.

Also, target level =/= the level players will be at in practice, but rather the level the ...

...

Why am I explaining this to you again?  We've already had this discussion and been over this already.  It was tied together with our 'how flee success rate is determined' brainstorming from a while back.

[leaf]

Also, target level =/= the level players will be at in practice, but rather the level the ...

...

Why am I explaining this to you again?  We've already had this discussion and been over this already.  It was tied together with our 'how flee success rate is determined' brainstorming from a while back.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and assume camelot wasn't completely incompetent; they would've at least tested their game to know what the average party level was for completing it. Unless their GS1 playtesters sucked at video games, the average party level should not have been as high as GS2 might indicate. In fact, I'd wager they made the GS1 chars come at lv28 in TLA not because it was the target level for GS1, but because it was the target level for GS2 at that point in the game. In order to change that, they would've needed to reduce experience given by enemies across the board, which would require lots and lots of rebalancing. If they were pressed for time in getting a release out, changing the default level of the GS1 characters is a much simpler solution than changing the experience given by over half the enemies in the game.

[Rolina]

Tell that to Dark Dawn.

[Awec]

I suspect it was more along the lines of helping newbies complete the game.
Think about it; the only people who wouldn't have a password would be the ones who didn't complete the first game. TBS was far more tutorial-y and helpful at the start than TLA, and without that help new players might miss a lot of helpful items or sidequests (and djinn). Plus, due to inexperience, new players might not have figured out good strategies yet; and let's not forget, Doom Dragon is tough without a good strategy.

Also, it could have been to help make the characters be significant. After having played TBS you would be happy to have Isaac and the team back in your party because they would have all the items you lovingly bought/found for them, whereas otherwise it's just add more generocharacters to the party and forget about them. The higher levels would persuade new players to actually feel like the new party is useful and so would be more persuaded to use all the characters rather than just leave half in the back row to get wtfpwned when the front row goes down.

[Rolina]

The first two games were easy enough that it didn't need it, Awec.  The main turnoff for newbies was how text heavy the game was - it's all the reading that turned off my siblings from the game, not the gameplay itself.

Plus, your argument is kind of moot.  Sharp difficulty spikes like the Chaos Chimera are typically seen as a bad thing in video games, where it is expected of a game to keep to a certain standard.  While it was refreshing to us who wanted a challenge, it's rage-quit material to those who actually like how easy DD is.  And the Doom Dragon?  That was just a defensive battle - if they game over a few times, they should know to be more healing-centric for the fight.  Perhaps to stock up on mist potions.  There's many ways to get through it, but in the end it's almost always an endurance battle, simply because you can't just summon rush the thing - it has multiple stages.

Personally, I like the Doom Dragon approach, since cheap tactics won't work on it.  However, even in TLA there were some tough fights.  Bosses were typically much much tougher than standard fights.  Not typically hard, per se, but most definitely more challenging.  However, even Leaf will point out that in DD, you can't even pull off a stock standard Unleash to Summon strategy, which is often the newbie strategy of choice - even I used it when I was first starting out.  But while in TLA, you typically take out the boss in the second round of summons, in DD, pretty much every boss goes down before the first summon round ends.  I remember leaf being really annoying by that when talking over skype.

All and all, there's good ways to make it newbie friendly, and there's bad ways to do it.  Making it super-easy save for the last fight is NOT a good way.  Cutting down on text, but making it more meaningful, and as much as I hate to say it, allowing the skipping of cutscenes are far better ways to attract new meat to the series.  Most of the people who got DD were probably fans of the old series.  I've not met anyone where the case was otherwise.

Still, though, you have the issue of "Monster Level".  What purpose does it have?  Personally, I see it as something to be treated as a target level, +/- 1 or 2 levels, to add variety.  These are the levels that the developers were aiming at when they made the game - however, what you cannot account for is the other people's playing styles.  For example, I was often above level because I tend to grind.  I usually had Ragnarok by the time you fight Saturos in TBS, but you're probably only supposed to be level 10 or 11 when you reach him.  Characters tend to be at the target level when they join you from what I've seen, which usually matches the level of the monsters around you (I think Ivan was the only example otherwise, but I may be wrong).  I think what monster level represents is the target level at which the player and monster would be evenly matched.  This is why bosses have a much higher level than everything else in the area - so as to provide a notable challenge to the player.

Basically, the stat of Level for monsters is meaningless outside of a helpful tool for the developers.

[Aile~♥]

Monster Level also helps set their stat gains in the arena, and may affect how difficult it is to flee from a battle.

[Rolina]

Actually, it seems as though Agility has more influence than level in terms of running away, but I'd not be surprised at all if level did play a part in it.  Don't quote me on that, though - that's something we've gotta find out, since at least I am gonna change how it works a bit.

[Rolina]

No, Jiten, what I'm talking about is that we need to know the actual code.  It's the same as with ailments - you can test until the cows come home - but we don't care.  We need to know what the game checks so we know how to approach it.  We need the code itself, and the formulas it checks.  That's how this site works - we can't settle for a good enough guestimate, we need to know the specifics and understand how to tweak and change them if we deem it necessary.

[Salanewt]

Pretty much. Speaking of which, have you made any breakthroughs on finding this code Role? Though generally, I would expect that Level is a huge factor in finding out how running away works.

[Rolina]

I think it's both level and agility that determines it.  I tend to have harder times running away from faster mobs, after all.

But no, I am unfamiliar with the code.  Even if I found it, I'd not even know what it was or understand it in the least.

[zman9000]

Actually, it seems as though Agility has more influence than level in terms of running away, but I'd not be surprised at all if level did play a part in it.  Don't quote me on that, though - that's something we've gotta find out, since at least I am gonna change how it works a bit.

I wouldn't be surprised either...
if only there was an easy way to test that theory before jumping into a ton of code on a wild goose chase...

Time for a few test-runs, 100 runaways with agility at 800.

100 runaways with agility at 200.  You, just might be on to something.

Nope that's not it. you cold do that if you wanted, but that won't give you results that will be the same every time you test.
if you wanted to test just to see before jumping into the code, set agility to 0 and level to 99... if you ever escape from battle if has something to do with level.

then I can see you going into the code to find how it works and how much, since you can't learn that from a test. And role if you want to look for something you think could be there but aren't sure, go a head... but chances are you will miss it or, waste time looking for something not there...

I myself don't care if it is effected or not, mainly because if level does effect it, its at such a low amount that it shouldn't really matter in a hack, or anything else you may want to do.
(as far as I'm aware)

[Rolina]

No, z, I think it has to do with both.  How much influence each has is the question.

[zman9000]

personally I don't think it does... because i can't see it being programmed like that. its either by level, or be agility... not both... unless you have some proof, tested it, or found some code about it, I will have to disagree with you.

[Rolina]

Z, as I already said, we just need to get this ripped from the code.  It should answer everything we needed to know.