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Author Topic: Animals and Animal Rights  (Read 13406 times)
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Charon
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« Reply #45 on: November 16, 2009, 04:06:40 AM »

I agree with you as a whole Role, but the only thing that irks me is your stress on the fact that animals work mainly on instinct. It's true that instinct is a large factor in their behaviour (and instinct also plays an important role in ours) but most mammals and birds, and other higher organisms are capable of spontaneous behaviour that is not instinct. Go higher up the line, higher mammals such as dogs and many birds are capable of logic, and higher still, corvids (crows, magpies, jays ect) and primates are capable of solving puzzles by developing new tools, like people do.
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« Reply #46 on: November 16, 2009, 04:22:43 AM »

Yes. In fact, I remember reading that Chimpanzees are supposedly only 1 or 2% different from humans genetically.

As for what you said about testing medicine Role... I thought you once said that the weak deserve to die for being weak?

Also, this instinct bit makes sense, but Charon is right about some animals using common sense (although an underdeveloped strand of it compared to humans).

This is what I think:

Lowest: No instict (like bacteria, etc.). What happens with them just happens.
Medium-low: Have instinct, but not advanced logic compared to other animals (and Medium-low includes my Math teacher from last year).
Medium: Have some thought process.
Medium-high: Have better logic skills, and are able to solve simpler problems (some slightly more complicated than others).
High: Have better memory skills as well as logic, and are better at problem solving, but they are missing things that make humans what they are.
Top: Humans (or maybe Alien Overlords, hard to say right now, heehee!).

By the way, this is not compared to Humans, because Humans are definitely not that smart for being the smartest living things on Earth, but this is based on a general look at each kingdom other than Fungi or Plant (since they are too off topic here).

As for deer babies Role... Go ahead and eat some Venison. I myself am NOT a Vegan, and I love meat (but how the meat is prepared often is cruel itself). Bambi? Hm... Oh, the Disney Deer. Have not seen that in years, so I don't remember it.

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« Reply #47 on: November 16, 2009, 04:55:29 PM »

I agree with you as a whole Role, but the only thing that irks me is your stress on the fact that animals work mainly on instinct. It's true that instinct is a large factor in their behaviour (and instinct also plays an important role in ours) but most mammals and birds, and other higher organisms are capable of spontaneous behaviour that is not instinct. Go higher up the line, higher mammals such as dogs and many birds are capable of logic, and higher still, corvids (crows, magpies, jays ect) and primates are capable of solving puzzles by developing new tools, like people do.
Remember the part where I said that many species, such as Chimpanzees, are getting close to the point to where reason takes charge, and will overright instinct?  The reason I said they act mainly by instinct is because at the moment, when instinct kicks in, it'll override reason.  Instead of continuing to solve the problem, they'll act on instinct instead.

However, many are quite close to breaking past that, just as you pointed out.  If we try to keep them as 'chimps', 'corvids', etc... then we're actually HINDERING their evolution.  We need to leave them be.  Then they'll break past Animal and into Race.

@Salanewt:  Actually, that bit about venison was me making fun of your little 'perfect world where dogs rule'.  Either you got that from family guy, or you heard some idiot say it.
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« Reply #48 on: November 17, 2009, 01:49:28 AM »

Lol. My my, you do easily find where I get my quotes from.  Happy

Nah, dogs should not actually rule over people, but what I was saying is that if humans treat animals more kindly, then they in return will not be afraid enough of them to try to harm them (of course, what I said before did not even hint at this).

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« Reply #49 on: November 20, 2009, 10:03:35 AM »

Although I don't really agree with you Role, I DO understand what you're saying and you're right to a certain degree...
But leaving them be isn't enough after a lot of species got extinct due to human pollution and exploration. I guess we got to at least help out some animals or else they'll be gone forever and no good can come if species start to disappear because sooner or later that will alter the food chain...
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« Reply #50 on: November 20, 2009, 08:28:08 PM »

Yes, and if food chains are altered, then you start getting altered ecosystems, and then eventually, things start really messing up.

Think of fit this way:

Seafood for fishing industry. The Coral Reefs are dying, most likely because of humans, so there will eventually be a large loss of habitat for animals. This not only affects the fishing industry, but it could be harder to find creatures (after a while) like oysters for pearls, or Sponges for themselves. On land, more life could die... If there are fewer carnivores, then plantlife is reduced (also vice versa, or any other circumstance). We are sort of talking about the environment now, aren't we?

Oh well, this is Animal Rights, so we can talk about their rights too.

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« Reply #51 on: November 20, 2009, 08:38:55 PM »

You don't need to go that far.
For example, if animal X disappears (due to pollution or/and hunting), animal Y, that eats a lot of animal X daily, would have to change it's diet. In a larger scale, if animals change their diet in a radical way, the ecosystem will collapse some time after.
Also, I recall something that I heard some time ago: if all bees would disappear, human race would also disappear in one year after. But I don't remember where, though.
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« Reply #52 on: November 20, 2009, 10:27:37 PM »

Well, that would make sense for pollination of plants, but there are other pollinators too (like Butterflies, Hummingbirds, and even some species of flies).

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« Reply #53 on: November 21, 2009, 09:12:43 PM »

I'm sorry, I didn't understand what you meant with that...  Sweat Drop
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« Reply #54 on: November 23, 2009, 03:47:28 AM »

When you said that humans will probably die when bees die. This is probably true, but there are pollinators, which could allow for the survival of some humans.

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« Reply #55 on: November 23, 2009, 12:33:21 PM »

Well, yes but I meant it not as being a pollinator but as a specimen. There are other pollinators but bees seem to have something special I guess...
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« Reply #56 on: November 23, 2009, 04:05:40 PM »

Makes sense. After all, they form colonies, have much larger concentrated populations, and also make honey.

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« Reply #57 on: November 23, 2009, 04:41:14 PM »

Yes, It's very interesting that bees seem to live in a different way than other animals (although their colonies/population are similar to those of ants).
Also, now that we are talking about bugs, they seem to be forgotten when people talk about them...They have the right to have rights just like any other animal but I guess maybe since they are in such large numbers than there's no need to worry about them? What do you think about this?
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« Reply #58 on: November 24, 2009, 09:23:56 PM »

Quote
if animals change their diet in a radical way, the ecosystem will collapse some time after.

It's that idiot logic that I have a problem with. The ecosystem can survive not one, but at least FIVE MASS EXTINCTION EVENTS.  I'm sure it can survive yet another species going extinct.  Adapt or die, that is the way of nature.  If it only had one source of prey, then perhaps it deserves death after becoming that specialized.  If it cannot adapt, sucks to be it.

FACE IT.  Animals have been forced to radically change their diet several times over the course of evolution.  And the ecosystem still exists, surprise surprise.  Try thinking before you type, 'k?
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« Reply #59 on: November 27, 2009, 08:19:50 PM »

But, as you said, animals have to adapt. To adapt takes time. If there is not enough time to adapt, then there will indeed be dangerous changes to the environment, and that will cause changes in radical ways. Also, evolution did not happen in a day, and major adaptations can take centuries (which [if not centuries] would probably either be years of increasing populations or decreasing food, so they find other sources of food or migrate). It has only really been a few hundred years since humans became the environment destroyers that we are today.

Take a look at some of the things that humans have invented. Some of the nuclear wastes are extremely toxic to everything, yet they can last for thousands of years before they do not cause any harm.

Yes, we do not have to worry about insects as much (except for the ones that help agriculture in major ways) as much as the others, because of their large populations (and some of which have extremely short life spans). However, it is better not to overdo anything like pesticides (which are, very luckily, starting to be illegalized in Canada).

Role? Our point of view may seem idiotic to you, as yours does to us (at least to me), but that is the lovely thing about a debate (as long as we are clear on this, right?). Happy As for the amount of mass extinction events, this is true, but it also depends on what they are (Forest Fire: Yes, Nuclear Bomb: probably not for a while) as well as their span.

One thing that I noticed... Many people believe in the right to live. Does this mean that everything has the right to live, or for them to choose what can live?

Have a nice day.

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